Man Convicted in Scotland for Making a Joke

BennyBlanco

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I'm Jewish and don't appreciate his humour at all. However, assuming that the intent was indeed humour, then I'm fine with it.
Likewise I have no problem with Yid chants at Spurs matches. If anything, criminalising humour/banter/parody will ironically turn us more into a Nazi state than just leaving it be.

It's always about intent & context.
Yup, well said.
 

sullydnl

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I'm Jewish and don't appreciate his humour at all. However, assuming that the intent was indeed humour, then I'm fine with it.
Likewise I have no problem with Yid chants at Spurs matches. If anything, criminalising humour/banter/parody will ironically turn us more into a Nazi state than just leaving it be.

It's always about intent & context.
Plus even if you do have an issue with something, that doesn't mean it has to be addressed by the actual police.

For example, If Spurs or the FA decide to punish fans who chant horrible things, that's fine. If Facebook, Twitter, Youtube or Redcafe decide to ban people who post horrible things, that's also fine. There's scope to relegate horrible people to the margins without actually attacking their FOS by having the state punish them.
 

Hitchez

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I don't think intent is very relevant in such cases. You may not like it and I certainly don't find the joke funny but the the whole point of freedom of speech is precisely that it allows us to say things people may not want to hear without fear of any repercussions. It's unfortunate that the byproduct of this is that it allows bigots and racists to air their views but that's how it is.

If you arrest the man in question for being offensive then then you're entering a slippery slope.
 

Pogue Mahone

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One way of looking at this which makes the prosecution seem a little less wrong-headed is to take into consideration the context of the person making the "joke". As someone pointed out earlier on, Frankie Boyle can be incredibly offensive but his politics are such that we know his jokes are never made with any sort of an intent to direct hatred at minorities.

For a self-appointed "anti-SJW" like this Dankula eejit it's inevitably going to be more difficult to tread the line between comedy and inciting hatred. He can say "I'm not a racist" all he wants but his track record undermines his own defence and was almost certainly taken into account in this court case.

Basically, unless you're a complete prick you're unlikely to ever fall foul of this legislation. Which is reassuring.
 

Fearless

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One way of looking at this which makes the prosecution seem a little less wrong-headed is to take into consideration the context of the person making the "joke". As someone pointed out earlier on, Frankie Boyle can be incredibly offensive but his politics are such that we know his jokes are never made with any sort of an intent to direct hatred at minorities.

For a self-appointed "anti-SJW" like this Dankula eejit it's inevitably going to be more difficult to tread the line between comedy and inciting hatred. He can say "I'm not a racist" all he wants but his track record undermines his own defence and was almost certainly taken into account in this court case.

Basically, unless you're a complete prick you're unlikely to ever fall foul of this legislation. Which is reassuring.
Except Pro Palestinian Frankie Boyle (whose a shit, watered down Jerry Sadowitz tribute act anyway) got in trouble for this. Notice how he conflates nationality with a religion.

"I've been studying Israeli army martial arts. I now know 16 ways to kick a Palestinian woman in the back. People think that the Middle East is very complex but I have an analogy that sums it up quite well. If you imagine that Palestine is a big cake, well … that cake is being punched to pieces by a very angry Jew."
 

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For a self-appointed "anti-SJW" like this Dankula eejit it's inevitably going to be more difficult to tread the line between comedy and inciting hatred. He can say "I'm not a racist" all he wants but his track record undermines his own defence and was almost certainly taken into account in this court case.

Basically, unless you're a complete prick you're unlikely to ever fall foul of this legislation. Which is reassuring.
What's his track record? From what I've seen he doesn't come across as a racist and have seen him condemning the alt-right etc.

Being, or not being a prick, shouldn't dictate whether you break legislation either.
 

Pogue Mahone

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What's his track record? From what I've seen he doesn't come across as a racist and have seen him condemning the alt-right etc.

Being, or not being a prick, shouldn't dictate whether you break legislation either.
I tried watching another one of his videos (only got a minute or two in - he's very annoying) and he described himself as an "anti-SJW" and did an attempted takedown of a video about LGBT campaigning. I'd say his politics are fairly obvious, whether or not he condemns the alt-right.

And I'm not saying that him being a prick matters, one way or another. But if you build an online persona around bringing minorities (or people who campaign on their behalf) down a peg or two, then you're always going to run the risk of falling foul of legislation like this.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Except Pro Palestinian Frankie Boyle (whose a shit, watered down Jerry Sadowitz tribute act anyway) got in trouble for this. Notice how he conflates nationality with a religion.

"I've been studying Israeli army martial arts. I now know 16 ways to kick a Palestinian woman in the back. People think that the Middle East is very complex but I have an analogy that sums it up quite well. If you imagine that Palestine is a big cake, well … that cake is being punched to pieces by a very angry Jew."
That's a fair point. As you know, anti-semitism is an issue at both extremes of the political spectrum. Which does undermine my theory.
 

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I tried watching another one of his videos (only got a minute or two in - he's very annoying) and he described himself as an "anti-SJW" and did an attempted takedown of a video about LGBT campaigning. I'd say his politics are fairly obvious, whether or not he condemns the alt-right.

And I'm not saying that him being a prick matters, one way or another. But if you build an online persona around bringing minorities (or people who campaign on their behalf) down a peg or two, then you're always going to run the risk of falling foul of legislation like this.
I think his politics are obvious but from what I've seen I don't think I'd go as far as to call it racist.

The law is supposed to be the law regardless of what your political opinions are, so I don't think it should be taken into account that he is a self proclaimed "anti SJW". Also think he got a lot more followers / supporters since the he got arrested for the Nazi Pug video.

Don't know if what he's said after can be taken into account, although it might as you're not allowed to talk about certain aspects of your case in the media, honestly don't know actually!
 

Pogue Mahone

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I think his politics are obvious but from what I've seen I don't think I'd go as far as to call it racist.

The law is supposed to be the law regardless of what your political opinions are, so I don't think it should be taken into account that he is a self proclaimed "anti SJW". Also think he got a lot more followers / supporters since the he got arrested for the Nazi Pug video.

Don't know if what he's said after can be taken into account, although it might as you're not allowed to talk about certain aspects of your case in the media, honestly don't know actually!
I don’t think that’s true. Especially when we’re dealing in grey areas like this. Context and intent is everything.
 

Mockney

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Isn't that the same as 'When they came for the..'?

It's hard to care when it affects someone who you dislike, disagree with or have no interest in their well being, but you should care because it is the principle that at some point, depending on the person making the decision to prosecute, it could be you.
Yes and no. Personally I care a shit load more about the scores of people facing the very real prospect of long jail time for protesting, or other similar free expression issues, than a man realisiticay facing no jail time at all for making a pug salute a ridiculous phrase. The very fact that the latter is the one we as a society are rallying round as a free speech issue is frankly rather depressing, particularly as people like this will no undoubtedly use it to test out all manner of horrible racist shite, full in the knowledge they can rely on achieving minor celebrity hero status and the vocal support of Ricky fecking Gervais. Whopty do for 2018, folks.

But yes, I have to support him, and his right to be a pillock. And if he’s actually sentenced (he won’t be) then perhaps I’ll gain a tad more symphathy too. But no, I don’t have to care any specific amount about an attention seeker who is now joyously revelling in the attention he’s so successfully attained. He’s won my support on a technicality. I care just about enough. No more, no less.
 
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JohnLocke

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I don’t think that’s true. Especially when we’re dealing in grey areas like this. Context and intent is everything.
That sounds reasonable, but I thought that the law was the law and that's that. I understand there are mitigating factors as well but don't know if someone's opinion would be classed as such. Intent acted upon and opinion held aren't the same.

Does that mean that someone who isn't racist can make a racist joke but someone who is genuinely a racist can't? What about if you used to be a racist (etc) but have since changed your opinion?

Not necessarily directed at you, but just for talks sake.
 

berbatrick

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I'm on the fence with this one, so this is going to be a quite pointless post.

Context is clearly important, the same sentence can mean very different things as a joke or a command. I know I have laughed at edgy humour a lot, and stripped of context the stuff is indefensible.

But what is the context here? This is a guy who is quite right-wing, but claims to be not alt-right, making a holocaust joke as irony. 4chan's /pol/ was supposed to be irony Holocaust jokes too at the start, before it became an explicitly alt-right stronghold. So how far does irony go as a shield?

There's also the problem of applying the law, which is supposed to be consistent and somewhat scientific, to human interactions which are never going to be exactly the same. Common sense is essential in this.

Finally, I do think it's important to have hate speech laws. From what I've seen in India, they're horribly misused and should be made much narrower, but can be used to keep pricks like Zakir Naik out.
 

VeevaVee

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To be fair, if you looked after someone's dog for a while and they came back to the dog being trained as a Nazi, it'd be kinda funny.

I've no idea if this guy is a top cnut, but he probably shouldn't be arrested.
 

Tommy

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You can joke about anything, and this whole thing is a fecking farce.
 

AkaAkuma

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I don't understand why YouTube isn't able to filter out this kind of stuff - the tech is there, they just don't have the will to do it.
 

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I don't understand why YouTube isn't able to filter out this kind of stuff - the tech is there, they just don't have the will to do it.
They are trying to tread the line between being advertiser friendly and not pissing off the people who actually make the videos. They have a vocal community who are pro-free speech - so to ban joke videos would cause a backlash at the current time.

It is definitely coming at some point though, it's just 'boiling frog' technique - currently it's at the 'demonetise stage' which isn't working because of Patreon and Superchats on streams etc. The next move will likely be moving to shadow bans of videos (where it will not show on searches for most users) and then outright banning.
 

Hitchez

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You should not be arrested or prosecuted for your beliefs or views no matter how matter how bigoted they might be. It's only when you act on these stupid beliefs that you should be in hot water. There must be millions of homophobes on the planet. You can't seriously arrest them all for hate crime. The right have taken over free speech.
 

Tincanalley

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It’s not the joker they should punish, fellow presbyters, as we seek to eradicate mirth from the highlands and lowlands. Go after the feckers who laughed.
 

sullydnl

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Even ignoring how wrong it is to punish someone for making an offensive joke, it's also clearly ineffective. Not only have many more people been exposed to the joke because of the publicity, the joke gets framed as being on the morally correct side of a FOS debate.
 

Mockney

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Minchin’s last statement is correct tbf.

There’s an ideological issue on the left between the liberal desire to protect free speech and the liberal desire to protect minorities that sometimes gets muddled. It may be well intentioned, but it allows the Right to steal a march, and idiots like this, Robinson, Hopkins etc to paint them as the baddies, with cause.

That said, I really don’t like Pie as much as most people seem to. He usually just takes the most obvious Centrist position and shouts about it. I’m pretty sure I remember him actually being on the fence about Brexit before the fact, only to become all righteous and shouty about it after the fact. Which undermines the whole opinionated polemicist angle, for me. Also the “angry reporter” conceit is annoying now, and not remotely funny (is it even supposed to be funny? He does seem to be called a comedian for some reason. But it’s a really broad definition if he is.)

Oh, also alsoI tell you where else you’d get sentenced for making a pug do a Nazi salute!? Nazi Germany!!” Well, yeah. And modern day Germany.

Doesn’t make it right, but it makes his bit a little less cutting.
 
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Cheesy

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Minchin’s last statement is correct tbf.

There’s an ideological issue on the left between the liberal desire to protect free speech and the liberal desire to protect minorities that sometimes gets muddled. It may be well intentioned, but it allows the Right to steal a march, and idiots like this, Robinson, Hopkins etc to paint them as the baddies.

That said, I really don’t like Pie as much as most people seem to. He usually just takes the most obvious Centrist position and shouts about it. I’m pretty sure I remember him actually being on the fence about Brexit before the fact, until the it started to become an obvious feck up, where he then started being all righteous and shouty about it. Also the whole “angry reporter” conceit is annoying now, and not remotely funny (is it even supposed to be funny? He does seem to be called a comedian for some reason. But it’s a really broad definition if he is.)

Oh, Also alsoI tell you where else you’d get sentenced for making a pug do a Nazi salute!? Nazi Germany!!” Well, yeah. And modern day Germany.

Doesn’t make it right, but it makes his bit a little less cutting.
I also often feel like for someone who likes to regard himself as a bit of a liberal leftist he's got that Orwellian habit of basically constantly criticising the liberal left in just about everything he does. Which isn't necessarily an awful thing because there is a need in any political sect for self-reflection, but it does begin to feel like he's basically taking easy, ranting pot-shots at his own side a lot of the time.

Although his points in the video above are fairly pertinent for the most part. And I do worry that the right claiming freedom of speech as their own is a bit of a concerning trend. Most liberals/leftists I know are generally against this conviction, and while none of them are going to be out marching alongside Robinson or Hopkins next week, I do worry a lot of people who identify with liberals will become increasingly disillusioned with certain authoritarian tendencies. Albeit while acknowledging that (as you say) a lot of those tendencies come from a fairly noble place.
 

Mockney

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I also often feel like for someone who likes to regard himself as a bit of a liberal leftist he's got that Orwellian habit of basically constantly criticising the liberal left in just about everything he does. Which isn't necessarily an awful thing because there is a need in any political sect for self-reflection, but it does begin to feel like he's basically taking easy, ranting pot-shots at his own side a lot of the time.
I don’t think he is particularly leftist. I know that’s the framing, but he works for fecking Russia Today and is written by a Spiked writer. He’s liberal in a New Labour middle brow way, but somehow framed as righteously anti-establishment. It’s angry Dad content. Or as Vice put it, “for people who feel they’re being lied to by the news, but being told the truth by the TV channel Dave.”

Like I said, his pre-Brexit videos were entirely non-commital, yet still somehow framed as edgy and opinionated. Then when he did form an opinion, he managed to blame the left. He’s just a shill for shareable content. That very Ricky Gervais brand of not actually all that offensive offensiveness in the form of a CE forum rant. (like this!)

Also, is it supposed to be funny? I mean, I kinda think it is, isn’t it? But, I mean, it isn’t, is it?

Although his points in the video above are fairly pertinent for the most part. And I do worry that the right claiming freedom of speech as their own is a bit of a concerning trend. Most liberals/leftists I know are generally against this conviction, and while none of them are going to be out marching alongside Robinson or Hopkins next week, I do worry a lot of people who identify witho liberals will become increasingly disillusioned with certain authoritarian tendencies. Albeit while acknowledging that (as you say) a lot of those tendencies come from a fairly noble place.
That is admittedly a concern I share.
 
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Cheesy

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I don’t think he is particularly leftist. I know that’s the framing, but he works for fecking Russia Today and is written by a Spiked writer. He’s liberal in a New Labour middle brow way, but somehow framed as righteously anti-establishment. It’s angry Dad content. Or as Vice put it, “for people who feel they’re being lied to by the news, but being told the truth by the TV channel Dave.”

Like I said, his pre-Brexit video was entirely non-commital, yet was somehow framed as edgy and opinionated. Then when he did form an opinion, he managed to blame the left. He’s just a shill for shareable content. That very Ricky Gervais brand of not actually all that offensive offensiveness in the form of a CE forum rant. (like this!)

Also, is it supposed to be funny? I mean, I kinda think it is, isn’t it? But, I mean, it isn’t, is it?
It's...okay. If anything he's just got a good talent for ranting continuously without really stopping at all. The delivery, if anything, is probably what people enjoy. But as you say most of the stuff he's saying is either obvious or lacking in any real complexity. Although it probably does point to a lack of genuine voices for this sort of thing when an angry fictional media personality seems to gain so much traction every time he puts out content.
 

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I think this is fecking disgusting. It's hateful. feck off.

Not so long ago people would be up in arms about this. Right now I'm disgusted that the most I or anyone else will do is write a post on the internet and be quietly angry. I'm genuinely fascinated to see how far our ruling classes (because that's what we've let them become) can push things before anyone lifts a finger. Social media - probably the end of the free world eventually.
 

Nucks

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I know, I was joking / highlighting the absurdity of him actually being a nazi / sympathiser. Not that I think there's a great distinction between the two for being murderous, but he doesn't align himself with it anymore either. Just thought it was funny.



Don't know if it's a fair reflection on the general consensus but the majority of people in here don't think he should be prosecuted and I think people who don't really care about such things would probably be of the same opinion.

The only people that would agree with the prosecution are those on the hard left, imo anyway.
I believe he even said he had family members who died in the holocaust. I mean. I cringed at the gas the jews stuff, but the dogs reaction was legitimately funny.
 

Cheesy

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Jonathan Pie saying they're immediately siding with the complainant here, but a number of the comments underneath point out that's really not the case and that the police are saying they're just looking into it, since they're hardly going to tell the complainant to feck off. If he does actually find himself in legal trouble then fair enough, but otherwise this seems a bit silly, closer to needless baiting than any wider point.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Jonathan Pie saying they're immediately siding with the complainant here, but a number of the comments underneath point out that's really not the case and that the police are saying they're just looking into it, since they're hardly going to tell the complainant to feck off. If he does actually find himself in legal trouble then fair enough, but otherwise this seems a bit silly, closer to needless baiting than any wider point.
“The response is prejudicial”. Feck off. Few things in life more annoying than blow-hards using legalese in an attempt to appear more knowledgeable.