Manager draft - Balu Guttman VS Joga Bonito(Lattek)

Who would win based on their peak under the chosen manager


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Annahnomoss

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Balu & Pedro's homage to Béla Guttmann



In the last game we focused on Guttmann's great Benfica side, but with the upcoming game against those versatile Germans, we need a different approach. During his time in Brazil Guttmann introduced tactics that would change the fate of the Brazilian nationalteam and lead to 3 World Cup titles in the next 4 tournaments. For this game we go more in that direction and start in a hopefully by our opponent unexpected 4-4-2/4-2-4 side. We brought Zizinho, the key player of Guttmann's Sao Paulo side and Pelé's idol, and the wonderful Nils Liedholm into the team and start Peñarol's longterm leftback, when they were the best club side in the world in the 60's, Omar Caetano.

During the draft we created a short journey along Guttmann's career with a few great stories and a bit of background information on our players. You can find them 'here'. Our first game also gives a lot of insight into Guttmann and our players, you can find it 'here'.

Tactics:
We can't go all out attacking in this game. If we push forward in high numbers, the central area in attack will be congested and that plays into the hands of an alltime great backline with hard working midfielders in front of them. Instead we want Puskas to drift around to drag the centerbacks away from each other, Eusebio to run through space, Liedholm to get away from Vogts. We're still an attacking team, but one that's slightly less direct, a bit more cautious but with incredible ball retention in midfield. Both Liedholm and Zizinho can tuck in and build a midfield triangle with Bozsik that is impossible to dispossess. We trick our opponent into commiting numbers forward, force Matthäus, Schuster, maybe even Vogts away from the defense to chase the ball in midfield and then hurt them with quick transitions towards the goal, get the ball in behind that defensive shield and let Eusébio run at the defense or use Liedholm's movement to get through the midfield and connect with Puskas. And the best part of it, there's a good chance that our opponent doesn't expect that approach at all.

Midfield:
We play wide midfielders instead of wingers who can provide width, but also move inside and create chances for our attackers. Both offer a lot of movement and defensive contribution. In the center the roles of Gonçalves and Bozsik haven't changed from the last game. Both together protect the defense and will enjoy the battle against Matthäus and Schuster. Especially Bozsik's accurate long passes will be important to find our attackers in the space between defense and midfield.

Here are just a few quotes to back up why our midfielders will control the game:

About Liedholm:
"According to legend, it took two years playing for Milan until Liedholm misplaced his first pass at the San Siro, the rarity prompting a five-minute ovation from the home crowd."

Pelé always said that Zizinho was the best player he ever saw:
"He is a complete player. He played in midfield, in attack, he scored goals, he could mark, head and cross."

About Bozsik:
"Not only was he able to spot the right pass at the right moment, his technique was impeccable. The youngster possessed a range of passing that allowed him to find distant targets, but he was also happy to play the simple ball if it meant retaining possession. Furthermore, he was almost impossible to dispossess as he shielded the ball so well from opponents."

Attack:
Puskás and Eusébio are the perfect comlementary striker pair for a 4-4-2, there's really nothing they can't do in and around the box. Two of the greatest attackers of all time, legends of the game. They're good for goals against any defense.

Defense:

For this game, we play a straight forward back four. Omar Caetano, a pacey leftback, who can contribute in attack and provide width. A ball playing centerback in Mauro Ramos, next to a great stopper in Roberto Matosas and a defensive fullback on the right in Cesare Maldini.

Final words:
Good luck and have fun ;)

------------------------------------Pedro-Balu-------------------------------------------------------------------------Joga Bonito


Jogas Key Points

1) A ridiculously complete team with only 2 specialist outfield players, namely Schwarzenbeck and Vogts who were defensive stalwarts.

This results in fluid and effective transitions with the likes of Brehme, Beckenbauer, Schuster, Bonhof, Matthaus and Wimmer all capable of sitting deep, defending doggedly and winning the ball whilst being equally able to drive forward, pick a pass or score a goal themselves.

My team works together on the defensive front and the offensive front as well, with great fluidity.

2) Goals from all over the pitch. Be it a tap in from Heynckes, a blitzkrieg counter goal from Hoeness, a ferocious long shot from Der Kaiser or Brehme and a Schuster or Matthaus goal on their rampaging forays forward.

Don't even get me started on the pile drivers from Bonhof, Matthaus and Schuster as well.

3) Typical German functionality, steel, industry and cohesive team work. I may keep on banging on about terms such as 'industry', 'team-work' and 'solidity' but it is for a reason. When you are facing a gloriously talented and attacking team with the likes of Joya/Eusebio/Puskas/Augusto etc, these qualities become quintessential.

My team has tremendous industry and team-work from every single player bar Heynckes who is primarily a goal-scorer here. Even my wing-forwards/wide midfielders are capable of tucking in to aid midfield battles, tracking forwards if they drop to the halfway line for space and help out my full backs if they need it. Zero 'luxury' players or passengers.


4) The only thing missing from my team is Gerd Muller but Heynckes is a great player himself who has beaten Muller in the goalscoring stakes before.

5) Facing a phenomenal attack and a ridiculously talented team here.

However, if there is any team I can see beating his, it could very well be mine. Do not underestimate a well-oiled German machine and let's not forget 1954 WC Final, Miracle of Berne, when Germans beat the Mighty Magyars despite going 2 goals down in the first 8 mins.

I do not need to remind anyone of the 74 WC Final against Total Footballing Cruyff's Dutch either with the Dutch taking the lead even before the Germans could touch the ball.

Simply put, they were sensational teams who are amongst the pantheon of the greatest teams in the history of the game. If anything can triumph in the face of adversity and a more talented side, it is the German machine.


Defensive line
Deep.

Fairly self explanatory. Suicidal to play a high line against his pacey forwards and my aim is to have a deep and compact team, stifling and strangulating his team of space and time on the ball.

Tactical setup

My main strategy here is to cut off/limit the supply line to his brilliant forwards. For instance I can bank on Vogts to deal with his left wing forward 8 out of 10 times but his forward is good enough to create something in those 2 opportunities. It's vital to limit these 1 on 1 scenarios. As such, I'm not really defending from the back but from the front.

In essence my team consists of 'filters' of sort to stifle his team and limit dangerous encounters in the final third. If anything leaks through, I will back my fantastic defense to deal with it.

First line of defense


As I said earlier, Hoeness and Wimmer are going to be hybrid wing forward-wide midfielders here. Capable of tucking into midfield or tailing their forwards whenever they drop deep. Hoeness will be slightly more adventurous and will look to utilize his pace on the counter.

Don't mistake Wimmer as a purely limited defensive forward either. He had a great cross on him, excellent pace, verve and was a terrific dribbler, in fact his nickname "Hacki" arose from his dribbling prowess. He is one of the most industrious players I've ever seen and will be a constant thorn in his forward line and defense as well.

Midfield battle

Once again my midfield will keep things tight and compact in the middle with special attention being reserved for Bozsik who is the metronome and the heart beat of his team. Bonhof is the holding midfielder who also has to keep an eye on any midfield runners such as Coluna or Zizinho.

Defense

I'm going for more of a zonal defense here than a man marking one. His attack is going to be extremely fluid and I would rather my defense held its shape (unless the situation absolutely calls for it) than be dragged all over the place. If their forwards are constantly dropping back, they will have to contend for scarce space in an extremely congested area.
Beckenbauer and Brehme to be more conservative in this match and rely more on their terrific vision
 

Balu

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I add a few videos for my lesser known players here. Milan have a great online hall of fame and created a few great videos about greats from the past and of course there are videos about the two Milan legends in our team, Cesare Maldini and Nils Liedholm:

There's some great defending against all time great players in there, including Eusébio. He was not as great as his son (very few were after all), but he clearly was a fantastic defender.


Liedholm is a joy to watch, some of those dribblings :drool: :


Good Luck @Joga Bonito
 
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Annahnomoss

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Going away for a while now, so will post on the match later.

Liedholm really is one of the best and most underrated(more unknown to be frank) playmakers in history. Incredible dribbling, the stamina and work rate to play as a central midfielder and hound up and down all day, legendary passing range.

It is claimed that two years went by before Liedholm misplaced a single pass while playing for Milan at the San Siro. Whether or not that is true, his passing ability over long or short distances was second to none at the time and from the deeper position of inside forward he was able to control games with ease. He was also exceptionally fit, one of the first players to recognised the importance of physical conditioning for a long career. Although he was primarily a goal creator, usually for Nordahl, Liedholm also possessed a powerful left-footed shot which brought him 18 league goals in his first season with Milan.


Prior to the arrival of their Swedish trio, Milan had not been Italian champions since long before the Serie A era but finished second in Liedholm's first season and in 1950-51 went one better, a total of 107 league goals helping the club finish one point clear of city rivals Inter. They would go on to finish no lower than third in any of the next six years, with further league titles coming in 1955 and 1957. In 1958 Liedholm helped the club to reach the European Cup final when. Playing at inside-right, he scored one and made two more as a 4-0 win overturned a first leg deficit in the semi-final against Manchester United, a team admittedly severely weakened in the aftermath of the Munich air crash. With Liedholm as captain, Milan agonisingly lost the final 3-2 after extra-time to Real Madrid despite leading twice.


Like the other Swedish players in Italy, Liedholm's international career suffered due to his decision to turn professional as Sweden picked only amateur players. He missed the World Cup in 1950, where Sweden finished third, but by 1958 that policy had been reversed. That summer he got the chance to captain his country in the World Cup on home soil, scoring a twice-taken penalty in their opening victory over Mexico. Although he missed a penalty in the next game against Hungary, Sweden won 2-1 to seal their place in the last eight.


Victories over the Soviet Union and West Germany took Sweden into the World Cup final for the first time, where against favourites Brazil it was Liedholm who gave his country the lead in only the fourth minute. That joy did not last long however, as Brazil hit back to seal a comprehensive 5-2 win, but having been almost 36 years old at the time Liedholm remains the oldest player to score a goal in the World Cup final. The final proved to be the last of his 23 international appearances.
 

harms

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"Withdraw" option is the easy one here. Will wait to hear from managers here, both teams are looking absolutely fantastic.
 

Annahnomoss

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Joga had to do his entire writeup on the phone so be gentle if there's some mistakes!
 

Joga Bonito

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Balu's playing withdrawn attackers/midfielders of sort to keep them away from Brehme and Vogts but that is where they will encounter traffic in the pesky Wimmer and Hoeness. If they manage to evade their attention, they still have Brehme and Vogts in front of them. Maldini was more of a defensive full back and I'm not worried about his presence on the flanks from a defensive point. Caetano also can't venture forward too much with the threat of the blistering pace of Hoeness behind him. The further he goes forward the more area Hoeness has to show his pace. Can't see Liedholm contributing too much defensively or tracking back either.

I'm assuming Bozsik and Goncalves are going to be a deep and conservative midfield pivot here.

Apologise if I got something wrong about your players gameplay. As it stands I don't know too much about them myself and you know much more about my team than me:lol:
 

Balu

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Can't see Liedholm contributing too much defensively or tracking back either.
His midfield partner, Liedholm, had great technical and physical skills with a middle distance athlete pace and great versatility on the pitch, in fact, later in his career, he even played as a defensive midfielder and centre-half.
http://talesoffootball.blogspot.de/2011/08/legendary-gre-no-li-trio-in-brief-g-re.html

I'm not worried about Liedholm's defensive contribution here at all and if you have Hoeneß following Liedholm deep into your own half, then Caetano of course will provide width. Hoeneß was indeed lightning quick, but he won't outpace a fullback, when he has to start at his own penalty box and runs through a congested midfield.

In general I think we won't see a high scoring game here. Matthäus & Schuster vs Goncalvas & Bozsik should be interesting. I guess I can limit their influence with the way I set-up and through dominating possession myself and I kinda need Eusebio and Puskas to come up with a bit of magic against your alltime great defense to score, both are capable of doing that though :drool:.
 

Joga Bonito

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not worried about Liedholm's defensive contribution here at all and if you have Hoeneß following Liedholm deep into your own half, then Caetano of course will provide width. Hoeneß was indeed lightning quick, but he won't outpace a fullback, when he has to start at his own thoughy box
He won't be tracking him all the way back to the penalty box though. He will keep an eye on him whenever Liedholm drops near the halfway line or thereabouts. If Liedholm ventures deep into my half then I would let Vogts deal with him. Hoeness will only drop that deep if Caetano bombs forward to prevent a 2v1 on Vogts. Although I can't see that happening too much with my pacey counterattacking threat.

Agreed on it being a low scoring match and it could boil down to a piece of magic by Liedholm, Puskas, Eusebio or Beckenbauer, Matthaus, Hoeness and Schuster
 

Balu

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By the way, I think it's awesome that Milan made those short video clips about their great players from past decades. All clubs should do it, but it would be nice if they offered an English version or at least English subtitles. I also found one about Gianni Rivera and one about Baresi, also worth watching even when you don't speak Italian.
 

harms

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By the way, I think it's awesome that Milan made those short video clips about their great players from past decades. All clubs should do it, but it would be nice if they offered an English version or at least English subtitles. I also found one about Gianni Rivera and one about Baresi, also worth watching even when you don't speak Italian.
It's not Milan, it's Gazzetta dello Sport.
 

Mani

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About Bozsik:
"Not only was he able to spot the right pass at the right moment, his technique was impeccable. The youngster possessed a range of passing that allowed him to find distant targets, but he was also happy to play the simple ball if it meant retaining possession. Furthermore, he was almost impossible to dispossess as he shielded the ball so well from opponents."

Familer with this quote,but not sure where i read it.
 

Balu

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About Bozsik:
"Not only was he able to spot the right pass at the right moment, his technique was impeccable. The youngster possessed a range of passing that allowed him to find distant targets, but he was also happy to play the simple ball if it meant retaining possession. Furthermore, he was almost impossible to dispossess as he shielded the ball so well from opponents."

Familer with this quote,but not sure where i read it.
It's from this brilliant article about him.
http://inbedwithmaradona.com/journal/2012/10/17/the-peerless-jozsef-bozsik.html

I linked to it in the player profiles, forgot about adding the source in the op.
 

harms

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Then Milan sucks as bad as all the other clubs and Gazzetta de la Sport is awesome ;).
Yes, they are incredible, really.
They have Milan, Juventus and Inter that I know of. Amazing work
 

PedroMendez

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Back to tactics. I think overall the lineup is able to deal with what Joga can throw at it. The back4 is protected by another line of hard working midfielders. There is no direct rout to score for his team. Even under pressure, our midfield (+Ramos) is very comfortable on the ball. This wont be a back-and-forth high scoring game, but a very intense midfield battle, where we would come out on top due to the superior ability to hold the ball.
Liedholm, Bozsik and Zizinho are all exceptional passer, who are all able to play a defense-splitting pass. With the service of those three Puskas or Eusebio will eventually score.
 
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Theon

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Tough game this. As in the last round Joga's defence is incredible and you know it would work flawlessly well. Elsewhere he's improved and I really like the balance of the side now with the addition of Matthaus. Bonhof sitting deeper whilst Matthaus and Schuster play box to box again looks like a very nice set up to me. I could certainly see Schuster/Matthaus breaking forward causing some problems for Balu and that defence. It's an excellent midfield.

I'm not too familiar with some of Joga's attackers or Balu's defenders though, so it's a hard one to judge in that area of the pitch.
 

Joga Bonito

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There is no direct rout to score for his team.
Im playing a deep and a counter attacking team but it doesn't mean I'm going to struggle for goals or rely on a scrappy goal from a long ball. I addressed the goal threat of my team in the key points as well.

My team has Hoeness who was averaging a goal in 2 games in his prime playing as a midfielder and a wing forward in the the team as Muller. Matthaus scored a whopping 57 goals in 113 matches averaging a goal in 2 games once again. Schuster had goals in him and Heynckes scored 45 goals in 65 Bundesliga matches under Lattek. I also have fantastic passers like Brehme, Beckenbauer, Schuster and Matthaus with the pacey Wimmer and Hoeness to capitalize on it. Matthaus, Schuster, Beckenbauer, Brehme and Bonhof were capable of scoring long range screamers as well. so I'm struggling to understand what you mean by lacking a direct route to score
 

Joga Bonito

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Ramos) is very comfortable on the ball. This wont be a back-and-forth high scoring game, but a very intense midfield battle, where we would come out on top due to the superior ability to hold the ball.
Liedholm, Bozsik and Zizinho are all exceptional passer, who are all able to play a defense-splitting pass. W
And my team isn't? I only have 2 offensively limited players, Vogts and Schwarzenbeck, in my outfield. In fact the likes of Schuster, Beckenbauer, Brehme, Hoeness, Matthaus and Bonhof were really creative and could play defense splitting balls themselves. If anything I would say the difference between both teams when it comes to 'ability to hold the ball' and 'playing defense splitting passes' isn't too significant and it most certainly wouldn't be where a team would come out on top of.
 

Raees

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I add a few videos for my lesser known players here. Milan have a great online hall of fame and created a few great videos about greats from the past and of course there are videos about the two Milan legends in our team, Cesare Maldini and Nils Liedholm:

There's some great defending against all time great players in there, including Eusébio. He was not as great as his son (very few were after all), but he clearly was a fantastic defender.


Liedholm is a joy to watch, some of those dribblings :drool: :


And here's a short video about Zizinho, that shows what he can do attacking down the right wing or through right midfield:



Good Luck @Joga Bonito

Liedholm looks so slow on the ball, how does he even beat these guys?

Are you sure that is the right Zizinho? are you on about master Ziza, the 1950 genius?
 

Annahnomoss

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Balu's playing withdrawn attackers/midfielders of sort to keep them away from Brehme and Vogts but that is where they will encounter traffic in the pesky Wimmer and Hoeness. If they manage to evade their attention, they still have Brehme and Vogts in front of them. Maldini was more of a defensive full back and I'm not worried about his presence on the flanks from a defensive point. Caetano also can't venture forward too much with the threat of the blistering pace of Hoeness behind him. The further he goes forward the more area Hoeness has to show his pace. Can't see Liedholm contributing too much defensively or tracking back either.

I'm assuming Bozsik and Goncalves are going to be a deep and conservative midfield pivot here.

Apologise if I got something wrong about your players gameplay. As it stands I don't know too much about them myself and you know much more about my team than me:lol:
That was one of his biggest strengths. He was preferred centrally because his of his great work rate.
 

Balu

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Are you sure that is the right Zizinho? are you on about master Ziza, the 1950 genius?
Damn, I posted the wrong video. Yeah, you're right, that's not the one. Sorry about that. I had a list with youtube links to include and forgot to take this out. I'll edit it out and look for the one I intended to post later. Can't do it here at work now :(
 

Annahnomoss

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Liedholm looks so slow on the ball, how does he even beat these guys?

Are you sure that is the right Zizinho? are you on about master Ziza, the 1950 genius?
:lol: His dribbling is so damn good he somehow makes up for it. Dribbling was still just a secondary attribute in his arsenal, primarily he was just an incredible passer/playmaker. Which makes you think how good it must have been with that dribbling.
 

Raees

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Damn, I posted the wrong video. Yeah, you're right, that's not the one. Sorry about that. I had a list with youtube links to include and forgot to take this out. I'll edit it out and look for the one I intended to post later. Can't do it here at work now :(
If it helps, by all accounts that vid doesn't do the real Zizinho justice. This is a guy Pele and Didi rate as their idol and was the 'complete article'. It is a terrific pick.
 

Balu

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If it helps, by all accounts that vid doesn't do the real Zizinho justice. This is a guy Pele and Didi rate as their idol and was the 'complete article'. It is a terrific pick.
If you find a vid that does him justice, feel free to post it ;).
 

Raees

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:lol: His dribbling is so damn good he somehow makes up for it. Dribbling was still just a secondary attribute in his arsenal, primarily he was just an incredible passer/playmaker. Which makes you think how good it must have been with that dribbling.
It is unreal like with most past footballers, I always give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they'd be able to hack it in the modern game but he looked like he was literally walking past them haha - in his defence he did play until old age so maybe the video doesn't reflect him at his peak.. I remember a Di Stefano video from 1963 against England as part of a rest of the world X1 and he too was barely able to move by that stage but still pulling the strings. His passing is obviously rated as godly both short and long range.
 

Joga Bonito

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That was one of his biggest strengths. He was preferred centrally because his of his great work rate.
Yup my mistake there, haven't watched too much of his team tbh and will be making a few more gaffes by the time this game ends:lol:
 

Joga Bonito

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That was one of his biggest strengths. He was preferred centrally because his of his great work rate.
Yup my mistake there, haven't watched too much of his team tbh and will be making a few more gaffes by the time this game ends:lol:
 

Annahnomoss

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On the game as a whole. I think that the defense of Balu/Pedro is probably my biggest "concern" over anything. Balu's attack is brilliant, even if Liedholm/Zizinho/Eusebio and Puskas would probably prefer someone on the outside of them providing natural width. The sheer quality of that front four is incredible though and they'd play well together. The back four of Joga is equally great though and I think overall Joga's offense is probably more likely to break down the Guttman defense - then the Guttman offense is to break down Joga's defense.

Pedro/Balu's team is offensively incredibly entertaining, would probably be fan favorites and would have made their way to this knock out stage beating everybody comfortably. But that is German football cuisine, that is when the sometimes uninspiring Germans steps up and makes a team effort way beyond their individual abilities.

I am not decided yet but I am leaning towards Joga.
 

Raees

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Tough game to call because I am not a fan of Balu's defence based on the research I have done and I don't really like Joga's attack .. lacks abit of star quality. The team is so defensively sound that Joga can afford to go abit more attacking in my opinion, I'd like to see another top attack minded winger in that side. Joga what is your sub by the way?
 

Balu

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Tough game to call because I am not a fan of Balu's defence based on the research I have done and I don't really like Joga's attack .. lacks abit of star quality. The team is so defensively sound that Joga can afford to go abit more attacking in my opinion, I'd like to see another top attack minded winger in that side. Joga what is your sub by the way?
:( I probably would have gone 3-3-4 again against every other opponent, but it doesn't really make much sense to be vulnerable on the counter against this midfield and hope to outscore him against that strong backline. But I think my defense can do a great job here.

If I'm not mistaken his only attacking sub would be 'one game played under Lattek in '92' Littbarski.
 

Annahnomoss

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It is unreal like with most past footballers, I always give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they'd be able to hack it in the modern game but he looked like he was literally walking past them haha - in his defence he did play until old age so maybe the video doesn't reflect him at his peak.. I remember a Di Stefano video from 1963 against England as part of a rest of the world X1 and he too was barely able to move by that stage but still pulling the strings. His passing is obviously rated as godly both short and long range.
He looks exactly the same in 1958, when he's almost 36 so it is hard to tell. In general he slowed down to make a pass/dribble but he of course had a much higher sprint speed than his walking dribbles. But he carried Sweden to the 1958 final(Swedens only ever) as a 36 years old and that final had Didi, Garrincha, Pele, Nilton Santos, Djalma Santos, Bellini, Gilmar and Zagallo who are all considered legends.

So if we rate them, we also have to rate Liedholm who far far after his peak was capable of carrying Sweden to the final(and scoring, which took Sweden to the lead after 4 minutes). He receives a ball, dribbles past Bellini, Nilton Santos steps in and Liedholm dribbles past him with ease, Bellini comes in again to close the space but it is too late - Liedholm shoots and scores.

It is not "a goal", it is quite a damn play from a 36 year old. Quite a few people have made that slow dribbling style work well.
 

antohan

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It is unreal like with most past footballers, I always give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they'd be able to hack it in the modern game but he looked like he was literally walking past them haha.
It does, did you see the state of those pitches though? It reminded me of my average mid-winter game of rugby in county league pitches. You can hardly stay on your feet and need long studs. Put Messi on that pitch with those boots and ball and he would look equally pedestrian, or spend all game on his arse.
 

Annahnomoss

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It does, did you see the state of those pitches though? You can hardly stay on your feet and need long studs. Put Messi on that pitch with those boots and ball and he would look equally pedestrian, or spend all game on his arse.
Was watching a video on how they trained earlier in those days and the ball seemed to be nearly uncontrollable to pass. Extremely heavy and with a lot of balloon effect. Makes it the more impressive that plenty of players had a great range of passing anyhow.