Manager draft - Balu/Pedro VS Paolo DC

[antohan]

I use that database for the write-ups (like the excellent Lerby's one) that they have or if there were any videos and articles, which they have links to, of lesser known players that I had missed.

Generally I take most of those ratings with a massive pinch of salt but there are some knowledgeable posters there who know their stuff. Most well-known player profiles have sensible debates on player's attributes with posters using video evidence or references to matches or comparisons to other players relatively, to back-up their points. Ultimately it's not the iron-clad truth, it's not objective and it's not entirely reliable but it's not completely bull-shit either. Just hope we don't have future debates based on 'hey my striker's att is higher than your centre back's def' etc.

Of course not, that's why I took the piss yesteerday when they got brought up. I do think they are a decent basis when no one seems to have a clue who somneone is. I picked Joya before and he was invisible, whatever I said was "obviously Anto bumming his player". Well, here you have a third party source that supports what is pretty obvious: he must have been a great player to start for one of the best teams in the world for an entire decade.

 

[antohan]

I've no idea what it means, but I just found out that my goalkeeper has a dribble accuracy of 73 at a dribble speed of 72. That sounds pretty good to me. It's also good to know that Bozsik has goalkeeper skills of 50. Awesome.

That's a goal-line handball waiting to happen

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Those are stats for players in a video game, right?

What a world. Anyway - I suppose they're based on...something. Partly what some programmer in Japan has been able to divine from...I don't know, really. Could be partly based on actual people actually knowing something about the players, having seen some old footage - impossible to say.

But the bottom line would be, again, that they're stats for a video game. I can't take that 100% seriously no matter how serious the guys who make the stats may be.

Besides, these are...what would ya call it...variables within the game. Which can be adjusted by the player. And the objective, I suppose, is to make the player in question look as realistic as possible. So, it ain't pure bollocks. But it's still "stats" which are designed to make the player playable for the...er...player (of the video game).

They actually debate some of the stats on their forum, which I arrived at via a Google search on some obscure draft pick here. I know you used to be able to create players on some of the really old PES games, so I'm assuming its advanced to the point where people can create players and share them online. Its far from the final word on a player, but I've generally been quite impressed with their ratings - they seem to know their football pretty thoroughly.

 

[PedroMendez]

I think that holds for the likes of Billy Meredith, post-50s there's very decent footage, just rarely online. It would be fair to say most people engaged in doing stats for a videogame haven't seen these guys live and that where there's little footage online the most likely knowledgeable sources would be locals, which can introduce a bias. That's why I overlooked the early Joya stats, they are so much better they are most likely the work of an overexcited River Plate fan, but the ones I quoted makes sense to me relative to Jairzinho.

They are consistent with what I've seen and heard, not just from Peñarol fans but documentaries involving the likes of Pelé and Santos authorities. For Santos' President to say someone was unplayable and impossible to disposses, when Pelé played for them... that's no small praise. Pelé had a show in Brazil a few years back and one of his first invitees was Spencer, who he said was one of the best players he had seen and had gone toe to toe with him for years with the advantage of being a better header of the ball. I remember him putting forward himself, Spencer and Eusebio as the most formidable forwards of those days and, when mentioning him still being the top scorer of the Libertadores Cup ("that's one record Pelé doesn't have", cheeky git), had a slight dig at Spencer saying no one else had Joya servicing them. While Spencer could have replied that he instead had Garrincha, Jairzinho, Rivelino, Tostao, Gerson... all he did was acknowledge how much he had enjoyed playing with Joya all those years. They were like two peas in a pod, a brilliant twin threat for any defence, and you couldn't contemplate one without the other. I think I mentioned before how they died in the space of four months and a song dedicated to them two topped the charts here, forty (40!) years after their peak.

Seriously, how hard is it to imagine that he would be comparable to Jairzinho when he was an integral part of a strikeforce that reached five out of the first seven Libertadores finals? And had their been an away goals rule they would have won all five, not just three. But no, let's ignore all that and focus on World Cups as the goal standard, a massive disservice to a player from Peru who chose not to play for Uruguay hoping to get his country into the WC some day (despite there being a policy of not calling up those playing abroad). Let's also assess George Best on his World Cup form while we are at it, shall we?

I am not questioning the quality of my own player, but this website. Its okay to take a look at it to get a impression on some players, but thats about it.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Of course not, that's why I took the piss yesteerday when they got brought up. I do think they are a decent basis when no one seems to have a clue who somneone is. I picked Joya before and he was invisible, whatever I said was "obviously Anto bumming his player". Well, here you have a third party source that supports what is pretty obvious: he must have been a great player to start for one of the best teams in the world for an entire decade.

Yup read some of your posts on the decades draft about Joya/Spencer and the settling of matters between Joya and another player in the bathroom . You had a great team there, btw who won that draft?

Anyway I don't think Pedro was trying to discredit your claims on Joya or anything but he probably just didn't like the concept of the ratings system and the methodology behind it. It speaks volumes that Joya is in Balu/Pedro's attacking line-up here, the number of phenomenal attacking players that Joya managed to get ahead of, to get into this team is just staggering and ultimately shows how highly they rate Joya.

 

[antohan]

I am not questioning the quality of my own player, but this website. Its okay to take a look at it to get a impression on some players, but thats about it.

It was a random rant, not specifically directed at you

 

[Chesterlestreet]

They actually debate some of the stats on their forum, which I arrived at via a Google search on some obscure draft pick here. I know you used to be able to create players on some of the really old PES games, so I'm assuming its advanced to the point where people can create players and share them online. Its far from the final word on a player, but I've generally been quite impressed with their ratings - they seem to know their football pretty thoroughly.

Yep - I'm sure some of them know their stuff. It's amazing how many players are included in these forums - there are numerous in English alone I see now.

Being an old gamer I used to play a bit of Pro Evo back in the day, so I'm not a complete stranger to what these lads are up to. Back then you had some vintage teams, I remember, but the idea of recreating players most modern fans have never heard of is pretty amazing. Must be a subset of Pro Evo gamers who are into this business, you'd think.

Anyway, my main point above was this: These stats are functional in terms of gaming - or should be, at least. That's kind of important to keep in mind - in that sense they aren't comprehensive at all, they're just programmed variables which aim to (when you alter them yourself, at least) make your created Vintage Star more likely to bury a thirty feet volley than some no-mark with less "shot accuracy".

This is reflected in the discussions they have too, I see: Player so-and-so should have this or that because when I field him against Real Madrid he does this or that - and that isn't realistic. And so forth.

But, yeah, taken with a healthy pinch of salt I'm sure there's something to be picked up here and there - at least as a starting point for further research.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Also, the "not comprehensive" part means that the game simply doesn't "get" many players. What makes or made them great isn't possible to reflect using the sort of programming these games are based on - which means that such players will just look pretty bland and mediocre in terms of the stats we're talking about here. The latter is at least very important to keep in mind for those who plan on using such sites for the purposes of research.

PS I'm not basing the latter on my old school gamer experiences. I do keep up to a certain extent with the development of games, football games not least - and they're clearly getting more and more "realistic" in some respects. They're not at the hyper-reality level yet, though - they're more "games" than "football" still, much more, I'd say.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Yep - I'm sure some of them know their stuff. It's amazing how many players are included in these forums - there are numerous in English alone I see now.

Being an old gamer I used to play a bit of Pro Evo back in the day, so I'm not a complete stranger to what these lads are up to. Back then you had some vintage teams, I remember, but the idea of recreating players most modern fans have never heard of is pretty amazing. Must be a subset of Pro Evo gamers who are into this business, you'd think.

Anyway, my main point above was this: These stats are functional in terms of gaming - or should be, at least. That's kind of important to keep in mind - in that sense they aren't comprehensive at all, they're just programmed variables which aim to (when you alter them yourself, at least) make your created Vintage Star more likely to bury a thirty feet volley than some no-mark with less "shot accuracy".

This is reflected in the discussions they have too, I see: Player so-and-so should have this or that because when I field him against Real Madrid he does this or that - and that isn't realistic. And so forth.

But, yeah, taken with a healthy pinch of salt I'm sure there's something to be picked up here and there - at least as a starting point for further research.

Great point and I completely agree on everything you wrote. I guess where I've been impressed is how they've scored certain attrbutes, particularly pace, relative to other players. I've found it accurate enough on players I'm familiar with to trust it to a certain extent on players I haven't seen much of.

I'm fresh off fluking a draw against my nephew on FIFA 15 and I agree they're still far from being hyper-realistic. There might never advance much from where they are now really, and for good reason. A 3-2 scoreline in 12 minute game seems a realistic scoreline for a football match without investing too much time. The same 3-2 over playing for 90 minutes would feel like purgatory for all but the most committed football and gaming nuts, and would take a crazy amount of investment and knowledge by the developers in terms of making it realistic as regards controlling multiple players positions etc.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

That documentary Balu posted on Eusebio was awesome by the way. I love Eusebio from what I've seen of him - he reminds me of Brazilian Ronaldo in terms of style and overall level. Both had too much pace, power and dribbling for defenders to live with, although Ronaldo probably favoured beating an extra man or two and either rounding the keeper or beating him from closer range, whereas Eusebio looked to unleash that piledriver of a shot as soon as he could. Eusebio and Puskas up front is basically cheating! I'll find it hard to look at those two up front and not vote for Balu/Pedro straight away.

 

[antohan]

That documentary Balu posted on Eusebio was awesome by the way. I love Eusebio from what I've seen of him - he reminds me of Brazilian Ronaldo in terms of style and overall level. Both had too much pace, power and dribbling for defenders to live with, although Ronaldo probably favoured beating an extra man or two and either rounding the keeper or beating him from closer range, whereas Eusebio looked to unleash that piledriver of a shot as soon as he could. Eusebio and Puskas up front is basically cheating! I'll find it hard to look at those two up front and not vote for Balu/Pedro straight away.

Aren't you familiar with that series? It's brilliant, you can find them all on youtube as well so long as you know which player you are interested in:

Players featured
Player Nationality Date of episode
Bobby Charlton English 11 June 2010
Gerd Müller German 13 June 2010
Ruud Gullit Dutch 14 June 2010
Eusébio Portuguese 15 June 2010
Rivelino Brazilian 16 June 2010
Michel Platini French 17 June 2010
Peter Schmeichel Danish 19 June 2010
Garrincha Brazilian 20 June 2010
Kenny Dalglish Scottish 21 June 2010
Raúl Spanish 22 June 2010
Johan Cruyff Dutch 24 June 2010
Ronaldinho Brazilian 25 June 2010
Alfredo di Stéfano Argentine 27 June 2010
Marco van Basten Dutch 28 June 2010
Paolo Maldini Italian 29 June 2010
Franz Beckenbauer German 30 June 2010
Zinedine Zidane French 1 July 2010
Zico Brazilian 2 July 2010
Michael Laudrup Danish 3 July 2010
Ronaldo Brazilian 4 July 2010
Gabriel Batistuta Argentine 5 July 2010
Ferenc Puskás Hungarian 6 July 2010
George Best Northern Irish 7 July 2010
Diego Maradona Argentine 10 July 2010
Pelé Brazilian 11 July 2010
Dennis Bergkamp Dutch 18 April 2014
Andres Iniesta Spanish 20 April 2014

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Aye, I've seen a fair few of them @antohan, but I didn't know they were all on youtube. Loved the Van Basten and Laudrup ones amongst others, but I pretty much want to watch all of those you listed bar Dalglish's

 

[Balu]

I'll find it hard to look at those two up front and not vote for Balu/Pedro straight away.

I hope you still feel that way when they're up against that all time great German defense in the next game .

Also @antohan , now that we've established that Joya is as good as Jairzinho, can those stats tell us anything about how he would do against Vogts ? I think I need a bit more to convince people he'd still have an impact in the next game.

 

[antohan]

I hope you still feel that way when they're up against that all time great German defense in the next game .

Also @antohan , now that we've established that Joya is as good as Jairzinho, can those stats tell us anything about how he would do against Vogts ? I think I need a bit more to convince people he'd still have an impact in the next game.

Well, seeing as Vogts kept a peak Cruyff in his pocket, I don't see how you could make a convincing case for anyone having the better of him. As with any well-matched duel, you win some, lose some. The upside is of course that if Vogts is entertained by Joya, he isn't helping much with Puskas, Eusebio and Coluna. That said, I would fully expect Joga not to go for a personal detail and make it look like Vogts runs around the pitch supporting others, all the while keeping Joya tucked in his pocket, which is, of course, nonsense. Can't have your cake and eat it, not in real life.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Well, seeing as Vogts kept a peak Cruyff in his pocket, I don't see how you could make a convincing case for anyone having the better of him. As with any well-matched duel, you win some, lose some. The upside is of course that if Vogts is entertained by Joya, he isn't helping much with Puskas, Eusebio and Coluna. That said, I would fully expect Joga not to go for a personal detail and make it look like Vogts runs around the pitch supporting others, all the while keeping Joya tucked in his pocket, which is, of course, nonsense. Can't have your cake and eat it, not in real life.

I have a different way of going about it tbh.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I hope you still feel that way when they're up against that all time great German defense in the next game .

Oh feck . There's so many ridiculously good teams in this draft. Eusebio and Puskas still have to be good for at the very least a goal between them against any defence ever though.