Manager Draft Final - Harms VS Edgar

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

That's bogus. Rijkarrd is capable of those forward runs and you could say that he was a b2b for Milan at times, same with Redondo to some extent. But in reality all 3 of your MF's strength lies in their defensive prowess. Out of all the CMs on the park, Lothar is most likely to change the game with a forward run IMO.

I agree. As I mention I consider this to be a upgrade on the actual partners they had. Here the defensive work is shared, so they would relatively be more available to contribute overall than the 2 man midfield Rijkaard (and Albertini) operated in.

 

[antohan]

I admit that I've not seen Baresi's but I'm sure Maldini is there. Makes for today's home work!

My bad, it's Maldini, Baresi is in the contenders. I guess I was still confused at his omission when writing that.

The team ones are awesome. Just finished watching them and still can't make up my mind. Both great sides, one I loved, another I hugely respected/admired.

My issue @harms is the five men at the back work to make it a stalemate, but in the process you gave up having the more vibrant attack.

Platini-Boniek is untouchable, then you needed a focal point in attack be it Batistuta or Rossi (I'm frankly not bothered in this setting, although I obviously rate Batigol higher anywhere else), but you also needed Baggio to unshackle Platini from Desailly and ensure the creativity and flair going forward would be present, through one or the other. You could always drop the striker or Baggio later in the game to close it out, but as it stands I can't see you scoring in a month of Sundays. It looks very much like a Juve in Europe model with Platini playing really deep in a Pirlo role of sorts trying to find Boniek's runs or Rossi/Batistuta and I don't think that will fly against this defence if they don't go gung ho, which they don't need to. It's 0-0 or 1-0 to EAP in my book, and I can't see how you can change that with Baggio off now. Didn't you pick up Brady, by any chance?

 

[antohan]

That's bogus. Rijkarrd is capable of those forward runs and you could say that he was a b2b for Milan at times, same with Redondo to some extent. But in reality all 3 of your MF's strength lies in their defensive prowess. Out of all the CMs on the park, Lothar is most likely to change the game with a forward run IMO.

Indeed, I don't expect Capello's Redondo to push up at all. What I do expect is Rijkaard to bomb forward into the space vacated by Gullit as he takes more of a second striker position, leaving Redondo-Desailly behind, not Desailly anchoring and the other two pushing. That's where the long rangers can become relevant if that defence is too hard to crack down, while I'm not seeing Matthäus getting too many shooting opportunities the way the game is laid out.

 

[antohan]

Voted Harms. As pretty much every one has said that this is likely a 0-0 affair. Most seem to have given credit to Van Basten to swing it with that odd goal. I do think Platini is not getting his due in that sense. I am sure if Maradona was playing there instead of him, harms would at least be level if not leading. That's not to say Platini was as good as Diego just that he can not swing votes like the Argie can. Platini along with Cruyff was pretty much the best attacking player picked in this draft. His job is ridiculously hard here, with having to navigate with in trio of Redondo, Rijkarrd and Dessaily (though he does have Lothar and Tardelli for support), but Van Basten is equally so since he will mixing it up with Kohler, Bergomi and Scirea as well.

The problem IMO is that Platini's job being so hard breaks down the ability of that side to put pressure on the rival defence. At the other end van Basten has an equally difficult maze to deal with, but the ball is already in and around the box and it isn't just van Basten but Gullit, Nedved and Rijkaard who could be coming up with the goal. Big difference.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Couple of points on tactics that I would like to reinforce:

1) Right wing: As Annah indicated Cabrini is better offensively, which is negated by a defensively better Cafu. Wither Baggio gone, only Gullit will be operating operating there, I do consider to have an advantage on that flank. Cabrini (and Matthaus) cannot commit themselves forward here often or too high up to be a regular threat wide.
2) Gentile on Nedved: Will end up just being counter productive for him. Nedved is not the metronomo that Gentile is used to man-marking and given his graft, he will just drag Gentile all over the pitch. All it needs is for Nedved to drift towards Tardelli and he'll end up occupying both of them. Even without the ball Nedved is in a position to cause far more damage here.
3) Platini isolated: Platini is the metronomo for his team. Yeah, Matthaus ain't bad at that, but then he is no Platini. With Desailly around him and Redondo/Rijkaard dropping back Platini will be contained as much as he can possibly be. Taking him out totally is a fantasy and I will not claim such nonsense, but it is realistic that he will find it incredibly hard to influence this game.
4) Maldini vs Boniek: From the way Boniek is positioned in the formation, I would say Maldini is perfectly placed to tuck in and strengthen that defence considerably or step out if Boniek pulls out wide. With relatively no regular wide threat, he is also free to step out and provide width when we are in possession. This set up plays right into Maldini's strengths and there is no one better than him to do the job here.

However you look at it, I do not see Batigol getting any kind of regular service here.

On the other hand...In a quick counter, Gullit is perfectly in a position to take advantage of space behind a attacking Matthaus. He really has a stellar back 3, but with Gullit/van Basten even half chances are sufficient. Going by percentages, I see that I have a better chance of scoring than them throughout.

 

[antohan]

Tardelli and Rijkaard being equal. Tardelli's best season had him score more and he averaged roughly a goal more per season as well.(In the league.)

I wouldn't get too scientific comparing scoring records within different teams and against different teams. On both counts Rijkaard would have been facing a harder job (primarily the Capello one). It is fair to say in terms of goal threat they are as potent, absolutely, but the way the game is laid out Rijkaard is the only one looking like he could score. Purely a question of game dynamics, it's not like he is nailed on to do it, not at all actually.

 

[Balu]

It looks very much like a Juve in Europe model with Platini playing really deep in a Pirlo role of sorts trying to find Boniek's runs or Rossi/Batistuta and I don't think that will fly against this defence if they don't go gung ho, which they don't need to. It's 0-0 or 1-0 to EAP in my book, and I can't see how you can change that with Baggio off now. Didn't you pick up Brady, by any chance?

I really like Brady, but where exactly would you fit Brady into the team when Matthäus and Tardelli are already playing? How many players do you want to carry the ball forward? If Scirea, Tardelli and Matthäus aren't enough to allow Platini to stay in the final third, then I'm really lost. If Platini drops into a Pirlo role, then surely Matthäus becomes highly influential in the final third all of a sudden?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Heh. It's a bit like trying to figure out which projectile is likely to make an ever so slightly bigger dent in a suit of armour, this. I'd probably say that Edgar is ever so slightly more likely to score and win 1-0. That isn't really sufficient, though, when the draw is a legitimate - and very realistic - option.

 

[harms]

This has the Juve versus Milan UCL Final in 2003 written all over it.

Both the teams are great but I feel this isn't harms' best team. Gentile seems pointless in that set-up. If that is what harms had planned to play, Brehme instead of Kohler would have been a much better option as he could have then played as a left wing-back. Van Basten and Gullit are great. But you don't need four CBs there against them. Seems overkill IMO. Personally, I would have taken Gentile off and played the same formation harms' did against me, except for Kohler replacing Gentile and Matthaus replacing Furino.

I didn't understand this comment, tbf. Brehme instead of Kohler because he can play LWB? I already have Cabrini, while Kohler helps with the aerial threat - Gentile would've been a question mark in that aspect against Gullit and Van Basten. And I don't have 4 CB's on the pitch, I have 3 CB and one player that is freed for man-marking duties.

I thought about playing the loopsided formation again, of course, but I knew that my defence isn't rated as highly as Edgar's, my attack isn't rated as highly as Edgar's and even my midfield is now, somehow, inferior to Edgar's (this was a surprise for me).

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I didn't understand this comment, tbf. Brehme instead of Kohler because he can play LWB? I already have Cabrini, while Kohler helps with the aerial threat - Gentile would've been a question mark in that aspect against Gullit and Van Basten. And I don't have 4 CB's on the pitch, I have 3 CB and one player that is freed for man-marking duties.

I thought about playing the loopsided formation again, of course, but I knew that my defence isn't rated as highly as Edgar's, my attack isn't rated as highly as Edgar's and even my midfield is now, somehow, inferior to Edgar's (this was a surprise for me).

All good points in my opinion. What appears as overkill is probably the only way to go against Edgar here. Regarded as a tactical match-up between the two of you - Edgar versus harms - I regard your choices here as very rational. Even as it stands I reckon the majority of the voters fancy Edgar's chances of nicking a narrow win as being greater than yours - if you had gone for a more attacking set-up, that majority would've increased in my opinion.

 

[harms]

Gentile man marking Nedved is bound to end in futility for harms imo. Nedved is not a AM (a la Zico/Maradona) and definitely is not playing the metronomo here. He will just drag Gentile all over the pitch and Maldini being largely untroubled is free to step up to provide with (tuck in squeeze space).

I don't know why you think that

• Tardelli would be involved when Nedved will run into his zone with Gentile on his shoulders
• That Gentile is somehow against the perspective to run after Nedved all over the pitch. That's his fecking assignment - he is not RB, he is a free player on a man-marking job.

And somehow it's me who would have problems with build-up play. Your best playmaker is Nedved, who is man-marked by one of the markers in history, while Platini's main problem is the lack of space. Scirea, Matthäus and Boniek are all brilliant playmakers too, but the main issue for me is voters underestimating Platini.

He was the king (le roi ) of tight spaces, he is probably the most intelligent player ever, at the very least he is one of a few. The way how he manipulated space is just unmatched, he didn't play against individual players, he looked at the defensive unit, predicted their movement 3 steps ahead and often scored/assisted while avoiding any contact with defending players whatsoever. It's a tragedy* that he and half of my team were mentally broken after Heysel and didn't really wanted to play football anymore, I believe that they are drastically underrated because of how they suddenly disappeared. He is the best player on the pitch (and is on par with Cruyff and Messi as this draft's best player), though your midfield is somehow neutralizing him and, in the same time, is dominating the midfield of Matthäus and Tardelli.


* it sounds wrong to call something other that Heysel a "tragedy" while mentioning it, of course nothing that happened/will happen on the football pitch will never be as important as the lives of people that were lost that day

 

[antohan]

I really like Brady, but where exactly would you fit Brady into the team when Matthäus and Tardelli are already playing? How many players do you want to carry the ball forward? If Scirea, Tardelli and Matthäus aren't enough to allow Platini to stay in the final third, then I'm really lost. If Platini drops into a Pirlo role, then surely Matthäus becomes highly influential in the final third all of a sudden?

I would play Brady exactly where harms played Baggio before, as some form of left inside forward.

It's not a question of harms having enough defenders/defensive players for Platini to stay in the final third, it's about Desailly's detail on Platini and giving him something to think about/shake things up a bit to ensure there is a creative presence/hub.

I just think harms approached this game wrongly. What Juve had on Milan was a better, more vibrant, attack, but he has gone for safety first against a team that only lost two games after scoring first in Capello's entire tenure. That's 2 games in about 200, why on earth would you sit back and invite them onto you? If they score it's game over, period. Much better to start playing to your considerable strengths and go for the shutdown once you nicked one yourself. It's not like Juve would go all spastic Cruyff about it, they would still be very strong at the back with four.

It's basically a case of both teams have it in them to shut the other out, but one has overdone it at the expense of their ability to score, which is a massive no-no AFAIC.

 

[Paolo Di Canio]

Wasnt aware I sold you Rijkaard @Edgar Allan Pillow

 

[harms]

My issue @harms is the five men at the back work to make it a stalemate, but in the process you gave up having the more vibrant attack.

I liked the idea of this (below), but I knew that it wouldn't work in the voters eyes. My loopsided four was questioned too many times and, actually, though I didn't saw any issue with it, but, again, I would've been killed anyway - it doesn't matter who is up against Edgar's defence in the draft world (Puskas and Eusebio did feck all, Garrincha can also can say a few words about Maldini), and my defence is still more likely to concede, even with Gentile on the pitch. The five-man (though this isn't a five-man defence, Gentile is wherever Nedved is and Nedved is running all over the pitch, according to Edgar) defence allows Scirea to step up more safely and cover for the lack of a pure DM - it isn't necessary with Matthäus and Tardelli, but it frees them, especially Lothar, to participate in the attacking game more.
I even had an explanation for Gentile's absence:

I made a controversial decision of including Kohler in my defence. It’s hard to exclude Gentile from that catenaccio/zona-mista line-up, but I had to – he lost his nerve in the last game after all the “Gadaffi” chants from the stands and, on top of that, he overheard Trap calling him, and I quote, “cnut of the highest calibre”. Needless to say, it didn’t end well. Kohler will help me to deal with physicality of Van Basten and Gullit here

By the way, you said a few times, if I'm not mistaken, that this draft is Trap's to lose. Out of interest, what would've you done differently? Not necessary in this game, maybe overall. I'm sure that if I would've started with this line-up, it would've been even worse (I'm talking about votes, not an actual game)

Spoiler

 

[antohan]

I didn't understand this comment, tbf. Brehme instead of Kohler because he can play LWB? I already have Cabrini, while Kohler helps with the aerial threat - Gentile would've been a question mark in that aspect against Gullit and Van Basten. And I don't have 4 CB's on the pitch, I have 3 CB and one player that is freed for man-marking duties.

He meant playing Brehme at RWB. You have a point re: Kohler instead of Gentile at CB, but it wasn't a bad option if you planned to start with five at the back.

I thought about playing the loopsided formation again, of course, but I knew that my defence isn't rated as highly as Edgar's, my attack isn't rated as highly as Edgar's and even my midfield is now, somehow, inferior to Edgar's (this was a surprise for me).

What gave you that idea? van Basten was awesome, but your quartet edged it attack-wise AFAIC. Your midfield isn't inferior, it's mainly a case of it being outfought and outnumbered. You are playing one more defender and one more forward, the midfield had to give there, surely.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Your best playmaker is Nedved, who is man-marked by one of the markers in history, while Platini's main problem is the lack of space.

Wut? Redondo and Gullit are no slouches when it comes to running that midfield. Infact they are better poised for quick transitions than your team.

I would say your attack is narrow. Gentile will not provide width. Cabrini has his hands full with Cafu. Maldini is on boniek (tucking in or tracking wide). This plays favourable to my team set up. When you are attacking it would flow through the middle and have to run through Baresi, Costacurta, Desailly, Rijkaard and Redondo. Not happening. End of.

Platini stuck between 3 world class DM's is not going to get much influence in this game, and I believe he is the key to your team. Without him it goes to individal brilliance of Matthaus to get something happening and against my defence, I'm sure it'll be handled.

Let's talk the other side. I get the ball off you and one of Rijkaard/Redondo passes it to Gullit (who is in the space vacated by a attacking Matthaus) and he gets a straight run to your defence. Good as they may be, I fancy Gullit and van Basten to score eventually. I agree it is not a big margin, but the %ges are in my favour this game.

 

[harms]

He meant playing Brehme at RWB. You have a point re: Kohler instead of Gentile at CB, but it wasn't a bad option if you planned to start with five at the back.



What gave you that idea? van Basten was awesome, but your quartet edged it attack-wise AFAIC. Your midfield isn't inferior, it's mainly a case of it being outfought and outnumbered. You are playing one more defender and one more forward, the midfield had to give there, surely.

I don't see a point of playing 3-5-2 with 2 wingbacks here. It won't improve me much defensively, I would've rather have one more forward up front if I were to improve my offensive game. The point of Gentile was to cut the playmaking link.

Probably that "it's a draw but I can see van Basten nicking one in" x5? His midfield is too defensive-oriented and if Gullit is a midfielder, than so is Boniek. And Nedved won't participate much, because he has Gentile on him. So it's Matthäus-Tardelli-Platini with Scirea, who is more comfortable stepping up than Baresi, for example, versus Desailly, Redondo and Rijkaard. I don't see a numerical advantage? Plus, my midfield is more all-rounded and has better players in it, it's that simple.

 

[harms]

Wut? Redondo and Gullit are no slouches when it comes to running that midfield. Infact they are better poised for quick transitions than your team.

I would say your attack is narrow. Gentile will not provide width. Cabrini has his hands full with Cafu. Maldini is on boniek (tucking in or tracking wide). This plays favourable to my team set up. When you are attacking it would flow through the middle and have to run through Baresi, Costacurta, Desailly, Rijkaard and Redondo. Not happening. End of.

Platini stuck between 3 world class DM's is not going to get much influence in this game, and I believe he is the key to your team. Without him it goes to individal brilliance of Matthaus to get something happening and against my defence, I'm sure it'll be handled.

Let's talk the other side. I get the ball off you and one of Rijkaard/Redondo passes it to Gullit (who is in the space vacated by a attacking Matthaus) and he gets a straight run to your defence. Good as they may be, I fancy Gullit and van Basten to score eventually. I agree it is not a big margin, but the %ges are in my favour this game.

Gullit and Redondo are no slouches, but Boniek, Matthäus and Scirea are? Okay. Gentile allows Scirea to step up and Tardelli isn't going to attack when Matthäus is running forward.

We are talking about hypothetical runs? Bergomi is running centrally instead of Scirea, unmarked and unexpected, plays one-two with Matthäus/Tardelli, goes wide, while Maldini is looking after Boniek and crossing it at Batigol. 1:0, game, set, match.
Hypothetical run starts at 1:02.

 

[Theon]

This has the Juve versus Milan UCL Final in 2003 written all over it.

Both the teams are great but I feel this isn't harms' best team. Gentile seems pointless in that set-up. If that is what harms had planned to play, Brehme instead of Kohler would have been a much better option as he could have then played as a left wing-back. Van Basten and Gullit are great. But you don't need four CBs there against them. Seems overkill IMO. Personally, I would have taken Gentile off and played the same formation harms' did against me, except for Kohler replacing Gentile and Matthaus replacing Furino.

Aye agree completely with your comments on Harm's team - I don't think it's the best Trap set up either.

I said at the time that Baggio was a weird pick when he already had Boniek, Platini and Batigol - because in all likelihood this exact situation would arise in which he was only playing three of them.

But then seeing as he picked Baggio I think he should have stuck with him and played all four, with Boniek more advanced on the right. This set up just looks strange to me and overkill with Gentile there as well as three other centre backs.

Brehme was the way to go all along for me and he should be playing that position instead of Gentile. I don't think that sides balanced so I'm going for Capello.

 

[Theon]

Couple of points on tactics that I would like to reinforce:

1) Right wing: As Annah indicated Cabrini is better offensively, which is negated by a defensively better Cafu.

I don't know where on earth this has come from and I don't think Cabrini was at all a more offensive player than Cafu, nor was Cafu better defensively. Seems the complete wrong way round there IMO.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Gullit and Redondo are no slouches, but Boniek, Matthäus and Scirea are? Okay. Gentile allows Scirea to step up and Tardelli isn't going to attack when Matthäus is running forward.

We are talking about hypothetical runs? Bergomi is running centrally instead of Scirea, unmarked and unexpected, plays one-two with Matthäus/Tardelli, goes wide, while Maldini is looking after Boniek and crossing it at Batigol. 1:0, game, set, match.
Hypothetical run starts at 1:02.

Such under appreciation of Maldini

You play a 5 man defence, use one for man marking and depend on other to help out in the middle. On the other hand I do not have any such requirements out of Baresi and Costacurta or even Desailly for that matter. My DM's are so much more suitable to get things happening from the deep than your backline.

 

[antohan]

By the way, you said a few times, if I'm not mistaken, that this draft is Trap's to lose. Out of interest, what would've you done differently? Not necessary in this game, maybe overall. I'm sure that if I would've started with this line-up, it would've been even worse (I'm talking about votes, not an actual game)

I did, indeed, and was quickly shouted over by quite a few Juve + Krauts&Bergomi at Inter + Juve again + a bit of Bayern + Fiorentina, and the Italian NT to boot (e.g. you could have picked Nesta and even an older Maldini). Way too many great teams and players not to be able to 1. draft well from the off and get past the first game, 2. keep improving all the way to the final.

In fairness, I didn't think Capello (I share sajeev's sentiment, and never had a good NT ) but Sacchi and his pool was a bit limited and his Italian NT stint inbred with his club side. It only dawned on me when I was close to replacing Stob (you were so unlucky, I would have destroyed EAPs dreams there and then, instead Stob picked the likes of Walter Samuel and wound up with Tassotti at wingback - hehe, I may have had something to do with that ).

I don't think you've put a foot wrong draft-wise tbh, even more so when you were competing for players with Gio of all people. You actually did very well in not trying to compete for the superteam stars and building your team around Traps best side. Furino was a great call, Cuccu... you displayed great balls not going for the familiar there.

What could you have done better? Brady but that's the romantic in me talking. I certainly wouldn't have picked Brehme in this side, however much I love him... I don't even think you needed Batistuta once you homed in on this theme and had Rossi. Matthäus himself isn't quite doing it for me as much as he did in Gio's side...

The only brainfarts were taking Boniek off in the last game and, as I said, starting like you did here. It hamstrung you, you start your best team, always, there's always time to get more cautious but you can't limit your goalscoring and invite pressure like that unless you are a vastly inferior team, which you aren't.

I think if you started with the side below and emphasised van Basten facing Kohler and Scirea, Matthäus keeping tabs on the less flawless version of Gullit, and Bergomi being awesome you would have looked relatively safe, while your attack would scream goals. Platini in particular, I feel really sorry for him being in that position of self-imposed inferiority. With Boniek around, Batistuta a handful for the defenders, Baggio being the flaw in Desailly's man-marking detail... I could see him shake it off and play a blinder, much like he used to, but he is now stuck deep in midfield trying to shake off Desailly and ping a ball here or there

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I don't know where on earth this has come from and I don't think Cabrini was at all a more offensive player than Cafu, nor was Cafu better defensively. Seems the complete wrong way round there IMO.

Yes. Cabrini played a purely defensive part (staying tightly on an opponent, say) to a far greater degree than Cafu did. If anything it would be as you suggest - Cabrini the more defensively sound of the pair, Cafu more of a direct attacking threat. Clearly so, I'd say.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I did, indeed, and was quickly shouted over by quite a few Juve + Krauts&Bergomi at Inter + Juve again + a bit of Bayern + Fiorentina, and the Italian NT to boot (e.g. you could have picked Nesta and even an older Maldini). Way too many great teams and players not to be able to 1. draft well from the off and get past the first game, 2. keep improving all the way to the final.

In fairness, I didn't think Capello (I share sajeev's sentiment, and never had a good NT ) but Sacchi and his pool was a bit limited and his Italian NT stint inbred with his club side. It only dawned on me when I was close to replacing Stob (you were so unlucky, I would have destroyed EAPs dreams there and then, instead Stob picked the likes of Walter Samuel and wound up with Tassotti at wingback - hehe, I may have had something to do with that ).

I don't think you've put a foot wrong draft-wise tbh, even more so when you were competing for players with Gio of all people. You actually did very well in not trying to compete for the superteam stars and building your team around Traps best side. Furino was a great call, Cuccu... you displayed great balls not going for the familiar there.

What could you have done better? Brady but that's the romantic in me talking. I certainly wouldn't have picked Brehme in this side, however much I love him... I don't even think you needed Batistuta once you homed in on this theme and had Rossi. Matthäus himself isn't quite doing it for me as much as he did in Gio's side...

The only brainfarts were taking Boniek off in the last game and, as I said, starting like you did here. It hamstrung you, you start your best team, always, there's always time to get more cautious but you can't limit your goalscoring and invite pressure like that unless you are a vastly inferior team, which you aren't.

I think if you started with the side below and emphasised van Basten facing Kohler and Scirea, Matthäus keeping tabs on the less flawless version of Gullit, and Bergomi being awesome you would have looked relatively safe, while your attack would scream goals. Platini in particular, I feel really sorry for him being in that position of self-imposed inferiority. With Boniek around, Batistuta a handful for the defenders, Baggio being the flaw in Desailly's man-marking detail... I could see him shake it off and play a blinder, much like he used to, but he is now stuck deep in midfield trying to shake off Desailly and ping a ball here or there

For me the issue with that side is that Bergomi would be playing on the right the entire game - where Nedved would be getting ball after ball to find Gullit and van Basten inside the box against Scirea and Kohler. Would be a complete destruction, especially considering he would have had Rijkaard entering the box as well at every opportunity possible.

All three dutch would be better in the air than Kohler, and Scirea is not at Kohler's level at all. With Maldini overlapping Nedved as well that would been a complete mare of a set up. Not to talk about all the corners it would lead to when Scirea finally got at the end of the first out of 8 crosses and nodded it out to a corner.

Having Bergomi&Kohler inside the box was an absolute must for this match.

 

[antohan]

I don't know where on earth this has come from and I don't think Cabrini was at all a more offensive player than Cafu, nor was Cafu better defensively. Seems the complete wrong way round there IMO.

I think what he is saying is Cabrini's game was primarily offensive (as Cafú's) but that Cafú being better defensively (better than Cabrini, not that that was his strongest suit) would make it advantage Cafú. It did strike me as well seeing the words "the defensivley better Cafú"

 

[harms]

Such under appreciation of Maldini

You play a 5 man defence, use one for man marking and depend on other to help out in the middle. On the other hand I do not have any such requirements out of Baresi and Costacurta or even Desailly for that matter. My DM's are so much more suitable to get things happening from the deep than your backline.

Well, that's why I posted a video there. Maldini is outplayed, like he would be and Baresi is covering for him on the flank. This results in goal.
You have almost no threat on the left with Maldini looking for Boniek and Nedved running from Gentile all over the pitch. That allows my defence to be so flexible. Yours can too, with a lack of threat on the right, but you won't do it - and my personnel is more suited for such changes.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Can't see the video at work, let me check once I get home.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I think what he is saying is Cabrini's game was primarily offensive (as Cafú's) but that Cafú being better defensively (better than Cabrini, not that that was his strongest suit) would make it advantage Cafú. It did strike me as well seeing the words "the defensivley better Cafú"

Aye - I reckon that's what he means too. But the bold part is highly debatable in itself - not to say that it's just plain wrong. In my opinion at least.

 

[antohan]

For me the issue with that side is that Bergomi would be playing on the right the entire game - where Nedved would be getting ball after ball to find Gullit and van Basten inside the box against Scirea and Kohler. Would be a complete destruction, especially considering he would have had Rijkaard entering the box as well at every opportunity possible.

So I take it Matthäus and Tardelli have gone on holidays? Nedved is on the ball and Tardelli is sitting on his arse? It's fair re: Rijkaard and Gullit attacking the cross since Lothar would be in no position to do anything about that, which was my sarcy point on the thread actually You are right, that settles my wondering whether Matthäus should be there at all: he shouldn't.

All three dutch would be better in the air than Kohler, and Scirea is not at Kohler's level at all. With Maldini overlapping Nedved as well that would been a complete mare of a set up. Not to talk about all the corners it would lead to when Scirea finally got at the end of the first out of 8 crosses and nodded it out to a corner.

Having Bergomi&Kohler inside the box was an absolute must for this match.

And how is that NOT relevant here? Because Gentile is onto Nedved? What happened witht he overlapping run from Maldini? Is Gentile also dealing with it? Or is, uh oh, Bergomi stopping him from ever crossing in the entire game?

I think the moment you state all three Dutch players would have the beating of Kohler aerially is the moment your voting for harms looks ridiculous.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Two great teams and two worthy finalists. Just a few points.

-Don't understand the Gentile on Nedved move here. Nedved is a great attacking player but he isn't exactly the vital cog in this Milan team or the one who Milan is reliant on to execute their passing game or tactical set up. He is a great all round attacking player but he was no Cruyff or Maradona IMO. Think harms could have used his resources better here imo.

-What a complete and sensational midfield EAP has... From the steel of Desailly to the dynamic box to box play of Rijkaard, with the creativity/flair of Redondo being the cherry to top it all off. All 3 were great defensive players in their own right as well. This is where EAP has the edge imo

-Matthäus and Tardelli are one heck of a midfield duo with Scirea helping them occasionally as well. However, I think playing Furino instead of Gentile in the team makes more sense as I don't really see the need for Gentile here. A back line of Bergomi-Scirea-Kohler-Carbini is more or less evenly matched against EAP attack imo. Having Furino also frees up Matthäus and Platini more. That would make way for some midfield battle as well. I would then give harms midfield the slight edge defensively and EAP the slight edge offensively. Really really think harms should go with a back 4 with Furino coming in for Gentile.

As of now I've gone for a draw and really can't bring myself to vote for a team.

 

[antohan]

Actually, that's a good point Annah makes there. The speculative teamsheet EAP posted in the main thread had stuck in my mind because I preferred Tardelli on the right and not Matthäus, but it really shouldn't be Lothar tracking Rijkaard's runs into the box, or Gullit's.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Two great teams and two worthy finalists. Just a few points.

-Don't understand the Gentile on Nedved move here. Nedved is a great attacking player but he isn't exactly the vital cog in this Milan team or the one who Milan is reliant on to execute their passing game or tactical set up. He is a great all round attacking player but he was no Cruyff or Maradona IMO. Think harms could have used his resources better here imo.

-What a complete and sensational midfield EAP has... From the steel of Desailly to the dynamic box to box play of Rijkaard, with the creativity/flair of Redondo being the cherry to top it all off. All 3 were great defensive players in their own right as well. This is where EAP has the edge imo

-Matthäus and Tardelli are one heck of a midfield duo with Scirea helping them occasionally as well. However, I think playing Furino instead of Gentile in the team makes more sense as I don't really see the need for Gentile here. A back line of Bergomi-Scirea-Kohler-Carbini is more or less evenly matched against EAP attack imo. Having Furino also frees up Matthäus and Platini more. That would make way for some midfield battle as well. I would then give harms midfield the slight edge defensively and EAP the slight edge offensively. Really really think harms should go with a back 4 with Furino coming in for Gentile.

As of now I've gone for a draw and really can't bring myself to vote for a team.

 

[harms]

I did, indeed, and was quickly shouted over by quite a few Juve + Krauts&Bergomi at Inter + Juve again + a bit of Bayern + Fiorentina, and the Italian NT to boot (e.g. you could have picked Nesta and even an older Maldini). Way too many great teams and players not to be able to 1. draft well from the off and get past the first game, 2. keep improving all the way to the final.

In fairness, I didn't think Capello (I share sajeev's sentiment, and never had a good NT ) but Sacchi and his pool was a bit limited and his Italian NT stint inbred with his club side. It only dawned on me when I was close to replacing Stob (you were so unlucky, I would have destroyed EAPs dreams there and then, instead Stob picked the likes of Walter Samuel and wound up with Tassotti at wingback - hehe, I may have had something to do with that ).

I don't think you've put a foot wrong draft-wise tbh, even more so when you were competing for players with Gio of all people. You actually did very well in not trying to compete for the superteam stars and building your team around Traps best side. Furino was a great call, Cuccu... you displayed great balls not going for the familiar there.

What could you have done better? Brady but that's the romantic in me talking. I certainly wouldn't have picked Brehme in this side, however much I love him... I don't even think you needed Batistuta once you homed in on this theme and had Rossi. Matthäus himself isn't quite doing it for me as much as he did in Gio's side...

The only brainfarts were taking Boniek off in the last game and, as I said, starting like you did here. It hamstrung you, you start your best team, always, there's always time to get more cautious but you can't limit your goalscoring and invite pressure like that unless you are a vastly inferior team, which you aren't.

I think if you started with the side below and emphasised van Basten facing Kohler and Scirea, Matthäus keeping tabs on the less flawless version of Gullit, and Bergomi being awesome you would have looked relatively safe, while your attack would scream goals. Platini in particular, I feel really sorry for him being in that position of self-imposed inferiority. With Boniek around, Batistuta a handful for the defenders, Baggio being the flaw in Desailly's man-marking detail... I could see him shake it off and play a blinder, much like he used to, but he is now stuck deep in midfield trying to shake off Desailly and ping a ball here or there

Thanks! Boniek's sub was a mistake, yes, but I didn't want to took a new shiny signing off the game. Shame on me.

That's the formation that I thought of and liked it a lot, but Annah has a point too, and I believe that I would've been eaten alive for that loopsided formation with Nedved outwide. The seeming vulnerability of that line-up is the reason why Theon continues to go on and on about 3-5-2 which is not ideal for Trap if we are talking about his dream-team in vacuum and not in a particular match-up.

Another reason was that I preferred to have an attacking option in case that something goes wrong and not a defending one in case I actually score. Which probably wasn't the right approach against Cappelo (hindsight).

 

[Balu]

but it really shouldn't be Lothar tracking Rijkaard's runs into the box, or Gullit's.

Who would you use for it? Play Furino instead? He's hardly helping with the height problem

 

[harms]

Can't see the video at work, let me check once I get home.

Oh. It is a video of Bergomi running through the center of the pitch, then three passes and he is on the right wing with Baresi on him and Maldini running into the box, because he was outplayed. Cross-header-goal and an eventual win 0:1. Just not hypothetical, like Gullit's one.

 

[Annahnomoss]

So I take it Matthäus and Tardelli have gone on holidays? Nedved is on the ball and Tardelli is sitting on his arse? It's fair re: Rijkaard and Gullit attacking the cross since Lothar would be in no position to do anything about that, which was my sarcy point on the thread actually You are right, that settles my wondering whether Matthäus should be there at all: he shouldn't.



And how is that NOT relevant here? Because Gentile is onto Nedved? What happened witht he overlapping run from Maldini? Is Gentile also dealing with it? Or is, uh oh, Bergomi stopping him from ever crossing in the entire game?

I think the moment you state all three Dutch players would have the beating of Kohler aerially is the moment your voting for harms looks ridiculous.

Gentile will track Nedved, with Boniek doing a job on the full back. Like I said earlier, for me that is the bottle opener of the game - Maldini either has to be all out offensive to get rid of Boniek and I don't think the crosses it leads to will be half as dangerous as Boniek being completely free whenever Harms wins the ball.

Or Maldini will be told to stay composed and keep an eye on Boniek, in which case Bergomi and Kohler can remain in the penalty box with Scirea being there as well. Bergomi-Kohler-Zoff will do one heck of a job against Gullit and van Basten. (And he is also the goalkeeper to have kept a clean sheet the longest time, from September 1972 to June 1974 (1142 minutes!) he was unbeaten. Haiti, of all nations, ended the run in the 1974 World Cup. )

Scirea would be able to focus on Rijkaard with the help from one of the central midfielders and I think Matthaus is the man to take use of the space Rijkaard would leave behind if he went all the way to the box, he'd leave him dead on the counter. You can't be sure to keep those three Dutch from scoring, but for me harms would be set up to be more likely to score on the space that opens up than concede on crosses.

He is perfectly set up for crosses really. This is all said with an incredibly even game in mind of course.

 

[Theon]

The seeming vulnerability of that line-up is the reason why Theon continues to go on and on about 3-5-2 which is not ideal for Trap if we are talking about his dream-team in vacuum and not in a particular match-up.

What are you talking about?

I just said when you made the decision to pick Baggio - which I don't think you should have done - then you should have played that line up. Literally, I just said above that you should have played all four of Baggio, Batistuta, Platini and Boniek when you made the decision to pick Baggio.

What you've done here is just a complete overkill of defensive players with Gentile on the right along with three other centre backs. Brehme should clearly be there instead of Gentile IMO.

 

[antohan]

Two great teams and two worthy finalists. Just a few points.

-Don't understand the Gentile on Nedved move here. Nedved is a great attacking player but he isn't exactly the vital cog in this Milan team or the one who Milan is reliant on to execute their passing game or tactical set up. He is a great all round attacking player but he was no Cruyff or Maradona IMO. Think harms could have used his resources better here imo.

-What a complete and sensational midfield EAP has... From the steel of Desailly to the dynamic box to box play of Rijkaard, with the creativity/flair of Redondo being the cherry to top it all off. All 3 were great defensive players in their own right as well. This is where EAP has the edge imo

-Matthäus and Tardelli are one heck of a midfield duo with Scirea helping them occasionally as well. However, I think playing Furino instead of Gentile in the team makes more sense as I don't really see the need for Gentile here. A back line of Bergomi-Scirea-Kohler-Carbini is more or less evenly matched against EAP attack imo. Having Furino also frees up Matthäus and Platini more. That would make way for some midfield battle as well. I would then give harms midfield the slight edge defensively and EAP the slight edge offensively. Really really think harms should go with a back 4 with Furino coming in for Gentile.

As of now I've gone for a draw and really can't bring myself to vote for a team.

Now there's a thought... I did feel Matthäus starting ahead of Furino somewhat weakened the defensive part of the midfield (I'm not underrating Matthäus here, just feel his Inter persona was better pulling strings and his short self isn't very handy here).

What about this?

 

[Gio]

The obvious advantage with Brehme is he offers so much going forward as well as being a solid defender. Three goals in World Cup Semi-Finals and Finals shows he'd have the mettle for this type of needly affair.

 

[harms]

Two great teams and two worthy finalists. Just a few points.

-Don't understand the Gentile on Nedved move here. Nedved is a great attacking player but he isn't exactly the vital cog in this Milan team or the one who Milan is reliant on to execute their passing game or tactical set up. He is a great all round attacking player but he was no Cruyff or Maradona IMO. Think harms could have used his resources better here imo.

-What a complete and sensational midfield EAP has... From the steel of Desailly to the dynamic box to box play of Rijkaard, with the creativity/flair of Redondo being the cherry to top it all off. All 3 were great defensive players in their own right as well. This is where EAP has the edge imo

-Matthäus and Tardelli are one heck of a midfield duo with Scirea helping them occasionally as well. However, I think playing Furino instead of Gentile in the team makes more sense as I don't really see the need for Gentile here. A back line of Bergomi-Scirea-Kohler-Carbini is more or less evenly matched against EAP attack imo. Having Furino also frees up Matthäus and Platini more. That would make way for some midfield battle as well. I would then give harms midfield the slight edge defensively and EAP the slight edge offensively. Really really think harms should go with a back 4 with Furino coming in for Gentile.

As of now I've gone for a draw and really can't bring myself to vote for a team.

Oh, Furino is an interesting one. A diamond with Boniek switching to the left right flank and Batistuta as the focal point of the attack?

EDIT sorry for the left-right madness