Manager draft - Harms(Trapattoni) VS Skizzo(Lattek)

Who would win based on their peak under the manager


  • Total voters
    25
  • Poll closed .

Annahnomoss

Full Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
10,101
PLAYER PROFILES

It is homage to Juventus and Italy sides of the early 80’s. This is Trap’s Zona Mista – “an introduction of a total football to catenaccio”, as Gentile once said. It’s a mix of zonal defence and man-marking system, which lead Juventus and Italy to a great success in the end of 70’s and in early 80’s (which includes the World Cup). My team is perfectly suited to soak up pressure and to hit the opponent on the counter.

Defence:
Zoff-Scirea-Gentile-Cuccureddu are a part of one of the best backlines in history, that has a better lost goal-per-game (0,67) and clean-sheet (0,52) ratio than Herrera’s Inter and Sacchi’s Milan. They are partnered with Bergomi – on of the best and most consistent defenders of all times, with whom Zoff, Scirea and Gentile played in the last games of 1982 World-Cup. Scirea also provides brilliant distribution from the back.

Midfield:
Furino and Tardelli – another proven partnership here, are shielding them. Furino is restricted to stay back and Tardelli has the freedom to join the attack if needed – that’s how they played together and they did it brilliant. One not to be underrated – Furino holds the record of the most Serie A trophies won, while being the integral part of the most title-winning teams. He usually makes it to Juventus All-time XI. Tardelli was a Kean-ish box-to-box, better defender, but a marginally inferior passer, I’d say, with a habit of scoring match-winning goals (World Cup golden goal stands out, of course).


On flanks there is a well-balanced duo of Causio and Boniek. Both are comfortable on either side and both are responsible for providing width and pace in my counters. Both were also very hardworking players. One not to be underrated – Franco Causio, one of the most talented Italian wingers ever, voted as the best ala destro (right-sided attacker) in Juventus history and 4 times Ballon D’Or nominee.

Attack:
In his best role – as a playmaker, which regularly finds himself on top of the goalscoring charts, my team has Michel Platini. One of the best players in history – and, no doubt, a superior player to Skizzo’s 1982 Maradona. Not much can be said about him – he will be the conductor of my orchestra, dropping back to help in midfield battle and rushing forward to score himself. Also, a frightening Platini-Boniek’s partnership is reunited here.


Probably the one thing that Juventus was lacking was a really prolific goalscorer on top – and no surprise that Italy’s World Cup win had coincided with Paolo Rossi’s purple patch. In my team up top I have Gabriel Batistuta, the best Argentinian striker ever and the best that Maradona had ever seen, by his own admission. He will terrorize central defenders with his unmatched in-the-box movement and you can’t leave him alone in front of the box either, we all remember his famous turn-and-shoot move.



Couple of points about the opponent and my specific tactics:

- My relatively narrow defence is well suited to face my opponent – he only has his fullbacks to threat me from the flanks and all his main firepower is concentrated in center.

- Two of my defenders made their names by facing and marking out of the game two of Skizzo’s attackers. Gentile famously marked out of the game Maradona in 1982 and 18-years old Bergomi marked out peak Rummenigge from 1982 World-Cup final.

- Causio and Boniek will create havoc by their movement – flanks are always the weak spot in diamond formation and this weak spot will be well exploited by my wingers.

- I think the fact that 9 of my 11 players played together and achieved great success should be taken into consideration.




Couple of points about my opponent’s players under Lattek:

- Kohler and Reuter are 34 and 33 years old. Both already retired from National team, they finished this season with Borussia Dortmund 11th! Lattek managed them for 5 final games that season, 2 wins, 2 draws and 1 defeat. In the league Borussia had 9-13-12 record. Needless to say, they were way off their peak – and Reuter’s main attribute always was his pace, which he, unsurprisingly, lost at this point.

- Maradona under Lattek isn’t Napoli’s Maradona or Maradona of 1986 World-Cup. Still a fantastic and truly special player, he didn’t have the best time in Barca. And, if we are true to our theme, I think that his conflict with Lattek, which ended with Lattek’s being sacked, should be also taken into consideration.

-----------------------------------------Harms -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Skizzo


Changes

I'll be lining up in a similar set up to my first game, but with two defensive changes/upgrade. Reuter will be coming in into the right full back position, and Kohler will line up alongside Augenthaler in the center of defence. Reuter gives me much more pace down the right flank, on both offence and defence, giving him a better chance to use his attributes against harms' left mid/wing (I assume Boniek). Kohler and Augenthaler will form an organized and imposing central partnership. Both tough tackling, and good in the air, they will need to be at their best to keep an eye on Rossi and Batistuta.

Tactics
My tactics will be similar to the first game, in that I look to maintain position and attack swiftly. I assume harms will play Platini behind Batistuta and Rossi, and will use Boniek in a wider role. That being the case, they will look to cause damage, and are capable of doing so. In my set up, I have a back 4, and a defensive minded midfielder in Stielike who will look to fill the gap between the defence and midfield, and limit the areas Platini has to work in. Having two other midfielders in the mold of Lerby and Roth means they are both aggressive enough, and possess the stamina and work rate, to play box to box, hounding harms' players when we are on defence, and pushing up to support my attack when we have the ball.

I am going to take a guess that harms will be making it a point to mention Gentile vs Maradona. A few points I'd like to make in that regards now. In that Argentina team of 82, Diego was the main focus of attack, which allowed Gentile to follow him and nullify the threat. In my set up, I have many more outlets, and if Gentile is dragged away from that pocket of space in front of his back 4, then Lerby and Roth will gladly fill it and take advantage. Plus in my case here, I have two of the greatest German goalscorers of all time ahead of Maradona, meaning there is a deadly threat from two other outlets even closer to goal. Maradona, even the young Barca Maradona, was capable of influencing a game in many ways. If he receives the ball, with the movement he will have available around him in this team, he is much better equipped to deal with the Gentile "problem" than in that Argentina team. Plus, Gentile would likely be seeing the dressing room earlier than the rest of the team if he keeps up with that rate of fouls every time.

Key Points to consider
  • As mentioned above already, there is a much different dynamic to any battles between Gentile and Maradona. Having Muller and Rummenigge ahead of Maradona, means there is much more of a threat with this team than with the Argentina team that faced Gentile.
  • Muller is one of, if not the, best goalscorer of all time. 68 goals for Germany in 62 games. 365 goals in 427 Bundesliga games. 66 goals in 74 European games. Averaging more than a goal a game with West Germany, Müller is now eleventh on the list of all time international goalscorers despite playing fewer matches than every other player in the top 25. This will be a close game with two organized defences. Muller provides the difference and the edge that can score the deciding goal in a close game.
  • Rummenigge had fantastic technique on the ball, and often played deeper. In the last game, he was used higher up to allow Maradona to pull the strings from deep. If Gentile is indeed going to man mark Maradona, Diego will be instructed to clear space to allow Rummenigge to drop into the pocket and link up play with Muller, or Lerby/Roth/Breitner if they are making the run.
Harms has a great team, and a great defence. I believe the difference here will be the midfield, which is set up to allow my team to choke his supply and limit his chances. While good chances will be at a premium for both sides, having the ability with my midfield to limit his chances, and having Muller to take advantage of mine, I'd back my team to squeak a close game.

Good luck harms.
 
Last edited:

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,029
Location
Moscow
First of all, absolutely fantastic team, @Skizzo! Lovely balanced.
Voted for myself to see the score. Good luck
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,178
Location
Montevideo
I've absolutely no idea what is going on here. Kohler and Reuter being past it is quite damning, who was there originally?

Will wait to hear from the managers.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,029
Location
Moscow
I think that Reuter is a little out of his depth here. He is asked to deal with Boniek, mostly, and is going to contribute both defensively and offensively? He doesn't have the blistering pace of his young self to do it no more. I'm not sure, really, that it was right decision to substitute Hansen here, though either way that right flank was going to be a vulnerability.

Kohler is another one, but, to be fair, his role doesn't require that much pace in the first place, so I'll let it slide. Actually, maybe @Balu or @Skizzo knows, why did he played only in 2 of 5 games under Lattek? Was that because of injuries or something else?
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,029
Location
Moscow
Really impressed with team harms.
Did Bergomi play that LCB role often?
Not really often, but he did play there in 1982 World Cup final there. What's great about Bergomi and Gentile is that they can play literally any role in defence without any problems, as they did in their careers. The main reason he is there is because I wanted him to be the one facing Rummenigge. He did it then (being only 18 years old) with great success.

It may would've been a problem against more wide attacking unit, but not against Skizzo's trio
 

Balu

Der Fußballgott
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
15,102
Location
Munich
Supports
Bayern Munich
Really impressed with team harms.
Did Bergomi play that LCB role often?
He's marking Rummenigge, so he's more or less in the right spot. It has to be said, that Rummenigge in that final in '82 basically played on one leg, he was nowhere near fit enough to start and just played through the pain after his sub appearance in extra time changed the outcome of the semifinal against France. If we look at Rummenigge's peak under Lattek it probably should be his last season at Bayern when he was again topscorer in the league with 26 goals in 29 games.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,029
Location
Moscow
He's marking Rummenigge, so he's more or less in the right spot. It has to be said, that Rummenigge in that final in '82 basically played on one leg, he was nowhere near fit enough to start and just played through the pain after his sub appearance in extra time changed the outcome of the semifinal against France. If we look at Rummenigge's peak under Lattek it probably should be his last season at Bayern when he was again topscorer in the league with 26 goals in 29 games.
Yes, you've got a point here, but Bergomi also was a 18-years old youngster and not an experienced one of the late 80's/early 90's under Trap.
 

Balu

Der Fußballgott
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
15,102
Location
Munich
Supports
Bayern Munich
Actually, maybe @Balu or @Skizzo knows, why did he played only in 2 of 5 games under Lattek? Was that because of injuries or something else?
No idea, but if I remember correctly he still was a regular in the next two seasons under Sammer, who was already Lattek's assistant manager during those 5 final games in 99/00. He didn't start all games and struggled with injuries from time to time, but he was still a very good centerback.

Football magazine "Kicker" has him as one of the 3 best Dortmund players in that horrific 99/00 season and as the 2nd best Dortmund player in the following season if you look at their average grades for the players.

http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...sia-dortmund-17/topspieler-saison-verein.html
http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...sia-dortmund-17/topspieler-saison-verein.html

That's more or less how I remember him. One of the few players in the team, who never had to hang his head in shame even when the team performed badly.

Reuter is a bit more difficult to judge, he was still a great player and even captained Dortmund to a league title and an UEFA cup final in 2002, but his pace was gone and he mostly played in central midfield or even as a libero in the middle of a back three from 2000 onwards.

/edit: a bit more digging into the matchday reports at kicker.de says that Kohler missed the first two games under Lattek because he had a cold, returned into the team but was suspended because of a 5th yellow card over the course of a season for the derby against Schalke. Started the last game again.
 
Last edited:

Skizzo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
12,537
Location
West Coast is the Best Coast
Great team @harms nice to see the partnerships.

Just to touch on a few points so far.

Gentile vs maradona and bergomi are highly unlikely to be similar encounters now due to the fact that both are now involved in the same team. ..dragging those defenders around leaves Muller with more space to cause damage.

Kohler and Reuter under Lattek was a short period, but still performed under him. neither will be asked to do a great deal because they can both afford to work as part off a unit. That isnt meant to downplay harms attack, but with him playing deep...I have a number of players who can seriousl6 hurt him if he lets me hold possession in and around his area
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,029
Location
Moscow
No idea, but if I remember correctly he still was a regular in the next two seasons under Sammer, who was already Lattek's assistant manager during those 5 final games in 99/00. He didn't start all games and struggled with injuries from time to time, but he was still a very good centerback.

Football magazine "Kicker" has him as one of the 3 best Dortmund players in that horrific 99/00 season and as the 2nd best Dortmund player in the following season if you look at their average grades for the players.

http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...sia-dortmund-17/topspieler-saison-verein.html
http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...sia-dortmund-17/topspieler-saison-verein.html

That's more or less how I remember him. One of the few players in the team, who never had to hang his head in shame even when the team performed badly.

Reuter is a bit more difficult to judge, he was still a great player and even captained Dortmund to a league title and an UEFA cup final in 2002, but his pace was gone and he mostly played in central midfield or even as a libero in the middle of a back three from 2000 onwards.

/edit: a bit more digging into the matchday reports at kicker.com says that Kohler missed the first two games under Lattek because he had a cold, returned into the team but was suspended because of a 5th yellow card over the course of a season for the derby against Schalke.
Figured as much, thanks. And I looked up the ratings too, of course, and knew that he had one of the highest numbers of appearances in the squad, that's why I wasn't sure what happened in those games. I had to point out that he wasn't that monstrous Kohler that we know of, but he is still a very good defender, of course. My main issue is Reuter, who would struggle both offensively and defensively with the duties that Skizzo gave him here. Fullbacks are crucial part of diamond formation and he has his weakest player here.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,029
Location
Moscow
Great team @harms nice to see the partnerships.

Just to touch on a few points so far.

Gentile vs maradona and bergomi are highly unlikely to be similar encounters now due to the fact that both are now involved in the same team. ..dragging those defenders around leaves Muller with more space to cause damage.

Kohler and Reuter under Lattek was a short period, but still performed under him. neither will be asked to do a great deal because they can both afford to work as part off a unit. That isnt meant to downplay harms attack, but with him playing deep...I have a number of players who can seriousl6 hurt him if he lets me hold possession in and around his area
Gentile and Bergomi aren't playing as pure man-markers, they are playing in Zona-Mista system. But they are set up to face their preferred opponents most of the time. And you seriously underrating Furino here, who has played in this system all of his life and isn't going to left any free space there.
 

Skizzo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
12,537
Location
West Coast is the Best Coast
Figured as much, thanks. And I looked up the ratings too, of course, and knew that he had one of the highest numbers of appearances in the squad, that's why I wasn't sure what happened in those games. I had to point out that he wasn't that monstrous Kohler that we know of, but he is still a very good defender, of course. My main issue is Reuter, who would struggle both offensively and defensively with the duties that Skizzo gave him here. Fullbacks are crucial part of diamond formation and he has his weakest player here.
I realize in my post I briefly mentioned his duties. To clarify, he won't be the same rampaging full back he was in seasons prior, but will venture from time to time. I have a defense and midfield capable of covering when he does, plus Breitner in the other side who will form a tremendous axis with Lerby. I won't mention Breitnigge since even though we know it works, it hasn't been proven yet.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,029
Location
Moscow
Enough about my defence and Skizzo's attack though, I want to point out that Skizzo isn't well equipped to face my counters. He certainly didn't expect me to line-up this way and I think that Causio and Boniek will cause him a lot of trouble, especially with Reuter here. I think that my wingers are going to have a field day
 

Balu

Der Fußballgott
Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
15,102
Location
Munich
Supports
Bayern Munich
My main issue is Reuter, who would struggle both offensively and defensively with the duties that Skizzo gave him here. Fullbacks are crucial part of diamond formation and he has his weakest player here.
Yeah, it's far from perfect. However, Rummenigge doesn't mind to drift wide right and Reuter's experience and intelligence might be useful against Boniek. Can't see Reuter providing much going forward here, but doing a disciplined job in defense. Of course that's not good enough to keep Boniek from causing problems, but few fullbacks could provide that. He shouldn't be seen as a passenger though and he's at least comfortable when being dragged into more central positions.
 

Skizzo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
12,537
Location
West Coast is the Best Coast
Gentile and Bergomi aren't playing as pure man-markers, they are playing in Zona-Mista system. But they are set up to face their preferred opponents most of the time. And you seriously underrating Furino here, who has played in this system all of his life and isn't going to left any free space there.
I don't underrate any of your players... would be foolish to do against any team at this stage. .. but Gentile was effective against Maradona because he man marked him. To point out your defenders success in marking my attackers out of games, then not man making them gives them their freedom.

Having my attacking players who will be constantly be moving will cause problems with zonal marking, and ask my attackers only need a small sight of goal
 

Skizzo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
12,537
Location
West Coast is the Best Coast
Enough about my defence and Skizzo's attack though, I want to point out that Skizzo isn't well equipped to face my counters. He certainly didn't expect me to line-up this way and I think that Causio and Boniek will cause him a lot of trouble, especially with Reuter here. I think that my wingers are going to have a field day

Now whos doing the underrating? :p

Boniek is a handful, but to think amy winger against Breitner will "have a field day" is hyperbole. Reuter at this stage will be focused primarily on defense, and to attack if the chance presents itself. Plus with Stielike and Roth on that side, he has two fantastic, hard working midfielders who can assist him and cover
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,029
Location
Moscow
I don't underrate any of your players... would be foolish to do against any team at this stage. .. but Gentile was effective against Maradona because he man marked him. To point out your defenders success in marking my attackers out of games, then not man making them gives them their freedom.

Having my attacking players who will be constantly be moving will cause problems with zonal marking, and ask my attackers only need a small sight of goal
They played this way successfully and I don't see why suddenly they are going to struggle against a fluid attacking unit. Scirea and Zoff are organizing this defense, Scirea himself, Furino and Cuccureddu are here to cover for Bergomi and Gentile if needed. It's not like it's Smalling and Rojo here.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,029
Location
Moscow
Now whos doing the underrating? :p

Boniek is a handful, but to think amy winger against Breitner will "have a field day" is hyperbole. Reuter at this stage will be focused primarily on defense, and to attack if the chance presents itself. Plus with Stielike and Roth on that side, he has two fantastic, hard working midfielders who can assist him and cover
It's not about Breitner, of course, it's about the formation - there are free space on flanks for them to exploit and they will be running on full speed at Reuter and Breitner. That's a downside of a diamond for me, with the right players, such as Lerby, for example, I can't say that it lacks attacking width so that it's becoming an issue for you, but on the counter there will be gaps on the wings.
 

Annahnomoss

Full Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
10,101
Very interesting match up. The negative for me about that Juventus side was that it didn't have a very complex and developed system offensively. It relied primarily on brilliant runs to get away from markers by either meeting the ball and one touching it to someone who was running forward instead - or finding the person making a penetrative run right away.

Skizzo will be playing on the dribbling runs of the playmaker Maradona, a complete different system but one I would consider much easier to use than Trapattonis Zona Mista offense. So I don't think that there will be many 1 vs 1 match ups, I.e Boniek vs Reuter as such.

Boniek will make a run in whatever direction and he would enter another players zone very quickly. Skizzo will have to defend as a team and that was maybe the absolute strength of the Germans, their organization and team moral.

Those runs were primarily to get rid of man markers, so it would be interesting to see how the match would pan out when there is nobody man marking them and they have to break down a system rather.
 

Skizzo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
12,537
Location
West Coast is the Best Coast
It's not about Breitner, of course, it's about the formation - there are free space on flanks for them to exploit and they will be running on full speed at Reuter and Breitner. That's a downside of a diamond for me, with the right players, such as Lerby, for example, I can't say that it lacks attacking width so that it's becoming an issue for you, but on the counter there will be gaps on the wings.
You can make similar claims about all sorts of battles on the pitch. Playing the ball into the feet of Maradona and Rummenigge as you sit deep is just as dangerous, if not more so, than having your wingers run from the halfway line on counters. Especially considering Muller will need to be watched at all times
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,178
Location
Montevideo
Gentile vs maradona and bergomi are highly unlikely to be similar encounters now due to the fact that both are now involved in the same team. ..dragging those defenders around leaves Muller with more space to cause damage.
While I agree on Müller, I think it is worth pointing out Lattek's Maradona wasn't peak playmaking Maradona (Schüster did much of that) but largely an attacking player that operated in the final third, very much what Rummenigge is. They would both largely be doing the same thing, and I don't believe they add up to as much as the sum of parts.

No man-marking is absolutely the way to go here, else Müller would wind up filling his boots and emerging as MotM.

I won't mention Breitnigge since even though we know it works, it hasn't been proven yet.
And it involved Breitner playing in midfield, not at leftback.
 

Skizzo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
12,537
Location
West Coast is the Best Coast
While I agree on Müller, I think it is worth pointing out Lattek's Maradona wasn't peak playmaking Maradona (Schüster did much of that) but largely an attacking player that operated in the final third, very much what Rummenigge is. They would both largely be doing the same thing, and I don't believe they add up to as much as the sum of parts.

No man-marking is absolutely the way to go here, else Müller would wind up filling his boots and emerging as MotM.



And it involved Breitner playing in midfield, not at leftback.
While they would have similar jobs, to downplay it to "doing the same thing" makes it sound like they nullify each other. That isn't the case at all.

and that is correct on Breitnigge, and thats why they are where they are and not linking up.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,178
Location
Montevideo
Very interesting match up. The negative for me about that Juventus side was that it didn't have a very complex and developed system offensively. It relied primarily on brilliant runs to get away from markers by either meeting the ball and one touching it to someone who was running forward instead - or finding the person making a penetrative run right away.
Really? Why do things need to be complex? Football at its best is a simple game.

The odd thing is I think it was far more refined than what harms is serving us with here. What has me non-plussed about his team is the presence of BOTH Boniek and Causio. I know he wants to exploit the diamond's flanks but what is clearly missing for me is Cabrini's surprise/overload element and what Bettega did drifting wide upfront. The movement in that attack was awesome: Rossi in the box (far from static), Cabrini attacking the left-flank, Bettega peeling wide right, Boniek wherever he could create the most chaos... and amid all that Platini emerged out of nowhere, to receive completely unmarked and score yet another goal. It was brilliant.

That's Serie A Juve, of course, not the European one, which was far more cagey.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,178
Location
Montevideo
While they would have similar jobs, to downplay it to "doing the same thing" makes it sound like they nullify each other. That isn't the case at all.
I specifically said "don't add up to the sum of parts", ergo, no synergy and some pointless overlapping but not nullifying. Most important, Maradona wouldn't really be a playmaker linking midfield and attack, not in that incarnation, yet that's what your team needs.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,029
Location
Moscow
Really? Why do things need to be complex? Football at its best is a simple game.

The odd thing is I think it was far more refined than what harms is serving us with here. What has me non-plussed about his team is the presence of BOTH Boniek and Causio. I know he wants to exploit the diamond's flanks but what is clearly missing for me is Cabrini's surprise/overload element and what Bettega did drifting wide upfront. The movement in that attack was awesome: Rossi in the box (far from static), Cabrini attacking the left-flank, Bettega peeling wide right, Boniek wherever he could create the most chaos... and amid all that Platini emerged out of nowhere, to receive completely unmarked and score yet another goal. It was brilliant.

That's Serie A Juve, of course, not the European one, which was far more cagey.
Cabrini is missing here indeed. Cuccureddu can do that from the right but just not that good. It was a tough choice but I figured that I needed the presence of Batigol more, so he can bully the defenders and free his partners in a way that Rossi wasn't capable of (his movement was almost as dangerous but he lacked the physical presence).

It was more refined, but I needed to shut down every zone here, because Skizzo's attack is too good otherwise. There was also a move with Bettega going in the box and Rossi to the right flank. I love that, but I can't get it right without Cabrini, so I went with more direct attacking approach + reassurance at the back
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,029
Location
Moscow
Gentile, while comparing Maradona and Zico in 1982, said something like that - while the former had more tricks, the latter was harder to play against because he always played with his partners, instead of trying to dribble his way around Gentile. Hence Zico's assist.

I'm no expert on Maradona though, so I'll let it for others to discuss, but I'm sure that I have a better player (under those managers) and playmaker (always) in a similar role.
 

Annahnomoss

Full Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
10,101
Really? Why do things need to be complex? Football at its best is a simple game.

The odd thing is I think it was far more refined than what harms is serving us with here. What has me non-plussed about his team is the presence of BOTH Boniek and Causio. I know he wants to exploit the diamond's flanks but what is clearly missing for me is Cabrini's surprise/overload element and what Bettega did drifting wide upfront. The movement in that attack was awesome: Rossi in the box (far from static), Cabrini attacking the left-flank, Bettega peeling wide right, Boniek wherever he could create the most chaos... and amid all that Platini emerged out of nowhere, to receive completely unmarked and score yet another goal. It was brilliant.

That's Serie A Juve, of course, not the European one, which was far more cagey.
Their movement was brilliant. The defense usually stayed deep in the build up, very very deep(just outside their own box) and then tried to find either someone running towards them - or someone running away from their marker elsewhere. While that was excellent against a man marking heavier system, I think it would be difficult against a team which doesn't rely on man marking them or pressing them.

The modern zonal marking is more of a system, if Rossi made one of his runs down towards the right to receive a ball - it would usually pull his marker completely away and someone just went straight in to that passage of space and a goal chance was created. These days Rossi would be let to run all that way, with nobody tracking him at all. So the entire key point of how they broke teams down wouldn't be very effective here.

Against a high pressing defense it would be excellent though as well as they do try to follow you and not allow you to receive balls. They averaged like 1.8 or something goals per game in the league. Conceded a little less than a goal per game when Boniek and Platini were there. It is an interesting match up, but I have a hard time seeing them play the exact same style of football as they did in their club - here against skizzo, they'd have to improvise.

Not saying it would go one way or the other, I really have no clue at this stage I have to see more discussion.
 

Joga Bonito

The Art of Football
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
8,242
Two brilliant teams. While harms has a watertight back line, he still has the likes of Batistuta, Platini and Boniek in attack to provide that flair and attacking impetus. Skizzo has a truly enviable forward line but the likes of Augenthaler, Breitner and an ageing but excellent Kohler at the back with a truly complete and terrific midfield trio shielding them.

I really can't separate both midfields here. The one who wins the midfield battle has the edge here for me. Can't decide atm and will see how it plays out for now.
 

Skizzo

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
12,537
Location
West Coast is the Best Coast
Heading out because I have to go coach...coming up around halftime..and seems people are voting without much discussion, but here's a tactical change to mix it up a bit while I'm gone.



Allen Simonsen coming in for Roth. Lerby will sit a little deeper, and look to be the deeper link between defence and attack, while also protecting the back 4 with Stielike. Maradona will play a little deeper and look to receive the ball to feet, and drive forward. Simonsen and Rummenigge will be looking to drift between the lines and create space in harms narrow defence. Muller will be looking to exploit that space and take advantage by doing what he does best.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
I'm not entirely sure how much of an asset Diego is here for Skizzo - as I suspect people are thinking "peak" to a significant degree. In practice I think that midfield combo would work very well, with Lerby and Stielike providing both smarts and steel behind Maradona's flair. People should not underestimate even the young Maradona's playmaking ability, by the way. He could, er, make plays - and did so frequently for Barca, even in a role where he wasn't the undisputed leader and Spielführer he became later.

In short, I think the substitution is a good one. We now get a more defined playmaker in Diego (one needs to buy him as such, of course - but I for one would do that) and a pair of tricky, fast, wide-ish attackers in Simonsen (whose absolute peak was definitely under Lattek for M'gladbach) and the young Rummenigge, flanking arguably the most dangerous box player ever. I like that better than the original XI - which looked unnecessarily heavy in the middle somehow to me.

Harms' team is very well set up given the players at his disposal - I agree with what was touched upon above, regarding Cabrini and the brilliant flow of that Juve side, but choices must be made and I think harms has argued well for the ones he's made here.

Tight match for me - not too much between 'em. Voting Skizzo for now - based on his new line-up - but will keep an eye on the discussions following the substitution.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,178
Location
Montevideo

A little clip of the work Simonsen could do.
:drool: I love Allan Simonsen, back when I had him in the 50s draft I played that clip so many times I spent months humming "We'll be coming" :lol: But he is not just a brilliant player, his attitude was great, like a vastly more talented Jimmy Bullard.

You do have some impressive forwards, no doubt.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
Very good substitution from Skizzo. With harms just playing 1 on top, you did not need that many players deep. This puts a lot more pressure on skizzo's defence.

@Annahnomoss I would like to withdraw my vote here. Can't actually make up my mind.
Now that you mention it, ideally there should be a "withdraw vote" option in addition to the "change vote" one. As it stands it's impossible for a voter to go from a win (for either manager) to a draw, so to speak. That said, the poll function obviously wasn't designed specifically for our purposes - so.