Manager draft Semi final - The Pep Vipers VS The Tramps

[Annahnomoss]

[QUOTE="Balu, post: 16700358, member: 56994"]I'd say he was a decent defender, nothing more, but (let's call it) creative enough to bend the rules of the game as much as possible to perform on a higher level. None of the defenders today can bend the rules as much as he did and the era Gentile played in had many great defenders, who simply didn't had to that. Why should he deserve credit for it in comparison to players today?

It's like saying, Busquets is a brilliant defensive midfielders, because he's great at getting opponents sent off for faking punches against his face. That certainly wouldn't have worked in the 80's. Should we give him credit for it? Means to an end and all that.[/QUOTE]

From how many matches have you reached this conclusion? That is absolutely bullshit from somebody who considers Boateng to be world-class. How many levels exactly is Boateng above Gentile? Get a grip.

Gentile was a brilliant defender overall, if it was so easy to be one of the best ever, why wouldn't just every average defender just foul their way in to history?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

It's like saying, Busquets is a brilliant defensive midfielders, because he's great at getting opponents sent off for faking punches against his face. That certainly wouldn't have worked in the 80's. Should we give him credit for it? Means to an end and all that.

Yes, I take your point - but it all comes down to how you value the players beyond their, let's say, rule-bending. If I think Biscuits' main quality is his ability to get opponents sent off through histrionics - then, well, he isn't much to write home about in my opinion. Same with Gentile. But people clearly disagree here regarding the man's capabilities beyond the rule-bending.

 

[Balu]

WTF? No that doesn't make sense at all? instead Platini was addicted to smoking. If he was playing in the modern game and still smoked 20 per days he'd struggle compared to the other players who didn't smoke heavily. So his physical abilities would hold him back as a footballer, but because the average physical level was much lower than today he got away with it.

The legends even further back in time used to drink and smoke, some even at match days. All this "how would X do in the modern era" is nonsense. Gentile is one of the best central defenders in history, let's leave it at that.

Not a single defender from 1900-1980 deserves to be included in these drafts then, the further back you go the more they got away with and if you just look at their actual individual qualities it is safe to say they are nowhere near the professionals of today.

I think you completely missed the point with the smoking. And he's clearly not, he has 2 significantly stronger defenders in his team for example. But I'll leave it at that, because it seems like you're a bit touchy when it comes to Gentile and I don't want to derail the thread further.

But people clearly disagree here regarding the man's capabilities beyond the rule-bending.

That's fair enough, but then the whole discussion about him playing under 'modern' rules shouldn't be such a big problem.

 

[Gio]

Yes - but...would he do that if he knew he couldn't get away with it? Gentile was a top, top man marker in his day. He was clever, ruthless, call-it-what-ye-will. It's not unreasonable to think that he'd manage to profit from those qualities even if he couldn't profit from...beating people up, bar brawl style.

It's a difficult one with Gentile. Much of his reputation arises from the sort of hatchet play that wouldn't wash in today's game. On that basis he's a little over-rated within the context of this draft and up against the likes of Robben and Messi. But equally Gentile stood out in an era full of proper defenders. And there's always a role for the snidey, underhand, win-at-all-costs, do-everything-but-get-sent-off defender. In any era they tend to work to the absolute limits of the rules.

 

[Gio]

Same goes for Gio's concern about my left flank - why are you not counting Tardelli here? Robben and Lahm will occasionally beat Cabrini, with one of them going on the flank and passing slightly backwards to the left to the other, as they do so well, but this is where Tardelli will be.

Because he's playing centre-midfield and we're talking about the flank. Obviously he's going to slide along and support, but equally surely you don't want him vacating the midfield area against a Barcelona team?!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

It's a difficult one with Gentile. Much of his reputation arises from the sort of hatchet play that wouldn't wash in today's game. On that basis he's a little over-rated within the context of this draft and up against the likes of Robben and Messi. But equally Gentile stood out in an era full of proper defenders. And there's always a role for the snidey, underhand, win-at-all-costs, do-everything-but-get-sent-off defender. In any era they tend to work to the absolute limits of the rules.

They do, don't they? And I guess that's where I'm standing when it comes to Gentile.

 

[Balu]

They do, don't they? And I guess that's where I'm standing when it comes to Gentile.

Who would be the example for it in the past 15 years?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Who would be the example for it in the past 15 years?

Dirty players, you mean?

Pepe, I suppose, would be an obvious choice. De Jong? Materazzi?

My personal favourite would probably be Van Bommel - who strikes me as a combination of a player who was underhand as all hell whilst also being genuinely very good.

 

[Gio]

Dirty players, you mean?

Pepe, I suppose, would be an obvious choice. De Jong? Materazzi?

My personal favourite would probably be Van Bommel - who strikes me as a combination of a player who was underhand as all hell whilst also being genuinely very good.

Van Bommel's a good shout - that quarter-final against Brazil in 2010 was extraordinary.

 

[harms]

Dirty players, you mean?

Pepe, I suppose, would be an obvious choice. De Jong? Materazzi?

My personal favourite would probably be Van Bommel - who strikes me as a combination of a player who was underhand as all hell whilst also being genuinely very good.

I somehow didn't write about Van Bommel earlier, though I wanted to, when I was talking about Gentile always knowing when and how to foul and get away with it. I remember his (Van Bommel's) trademark foul just after he'd got his first yellow card in the game, for example, when he knew that the referee isn't going to sent him off immediately.

 

[Balu]

Fair enough, the 2010 World Cup would have been a great stage for Gentile to excel . At least in my book, van Bommel isn't a better player because he's smart enough not to get caught with constant fouling though.

 

[Gio]

Impressive that Harms has gathered together players from four different Trap teams and each one is at the peak of their powers. That was always a huge appeal in him as a manager in this draft.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Fair enough, the 2010 World Cup would have been a great stage for Gentile to excel . At least in my book, van Bommel isn't a better player because he's smart enough not to get caught with constant fouling though.

I know what you mean - but for the sake of playing devil's advocate here one could say that this sort of gamesmanship does, in fact, make a difference on the pitch, whether we like it or not. So, it might not be entirely unreasonable to claim that this kind of smartness makes a player...more effective? And isn't that tantamount to saying that it makes him, in terms of what he brings to the table...better?

 

[Balu]

And isn't that tantamount to saying that it makes him, in terms of what he brings to the table...better?

Yeah, fair enough. But not to the degree it happened with Gentile. There were brilliant man-markers in his era who weren't thugs, Karlheinz Förster for example. I'd say Sergio Ramos is a good example for a comparable player to Gentile. He's actually a better defender than he gets credit for, who despite his record breaking number of red cards still gets away with countless small fouls and cnutish behaviour. He would have been a hero in the 80's, yet most people would say he's a great example for the lack of quality centerbacks in the game today. It's just weird how different we judge defenders depending on the era they play/played in in comparison to how we judge attacking players.

 

[harms]

Yeah, fair enough. But not to the degree it happened with Gentile. There were brilliant man-markers in his era who weren't thugs, Karlheinz Förster for example. I'd say Sergio Ramos is a good example for a comparable player to Gentile. He's actually a better defender than he gets credit for, who despite his record breaking number of red cards still gets away with countless small fouls and cnutish behaviour. He would have been a hero in the 80's, yet most people would say he's a great example for the lack of quality centerbacks in the game today. It's just weird how different we judge defenders depending on the era they play/played in in comparison to how we judge attacking players.

I think that you are downplaying Gentile when you are comparing him to Ramos. The main criticism of Ramos is that he is a brainless defender, he lacks tactical discipline, while having all other qualities, physical and technical to be a great defender. They are comparable in cuntishness but, then again, Gentile always knew the limits - Ramos doesn't, that's why he got some stupid and unnecessary red cards in the end of El Classico's etc. Gentile is a provoker, Ramos is a fool.

And as much as I love intelligent defenders like Scirea and Bergomi (who were superior to Gentile, that I will not question), I think that some cuntishness is good here. Again, Materazzi-like, not Ramos-like.

 

[harms]

I still don't know why we are discussing Gentile though, when there is a defender like Boateng on the pitch, for example. He isn't the best central defender in the world even in this poor generation, he has a history of mistakes (he looks better now, but still). He is well-suited for this system, he is very good in build-up, but he is up against Batistuta and Baggio - and he will be in 1-on-1 situations against them more often then Gentile will be against Robben, for example.

 

[Balu]

I think that you are downplaying Gentile when you are comparing him to Ramos. The main criticism of Ramos is that he is a brainless defender, he lacks tactical discipline, while having all other qualities, physical and technical to be a great defender. They are comparable in cuntishness but, then again, Gentile always knew the limits - Ramos doesn't, that's why he got some stupid and unnecessary red cards in the end of El Classico's etc. Gentile is a provoker, Ramos is a fool.

And as much as I love intelligent defenders like Scirea and Bergomi (who were superior to Gentile, that I will not question), I think that some cuntishness is good here. Again, Materazzi-like, not Ramos-like.

I don't think that's true. Often enough Gentile simply was lucky to finish the game, at least that's how I remember it (and I actually think the same about Ramos is basically every game I see him in). Sure you can call it smart, say he somehow 'knew' that he could get away with so much, but I struggle to see it that way. As an example, when Vogts fouled Cruyff early in the final in '74 and saw a yellow card, he simply didn't commit another foul after that. Gentile wasn't 'smart' like that or good enough to pull something like that off. It's probably true that Ramos is more a fool than Gentile was, but Gentile was much more than just a provoker, he needed to get away with his antics to be a great defender in my opinion and defenders today simply don't.

 

[Balu]

I still don't know why we are discussing Gentile though, when there is a defender like Boateng on the pitch, for example. He isn't the best central defender in the world even in this poor generation, he has a history of mistakes (he looks better now, but still). He is well-suited for this system, he is very good in build-up, but he is up against Batistuta and Baggio - and he will be in 1-on-1 situations against them more often then Gentile will be against Robben, for example.

Boateng has been absolutely fantastic in the past 3 years, only Thiago Silva has performed on a higher level in my opinion and it's damn close. He has performed against the best attackers in the world, had brilliant one-on-one performances against C. Ronaldo and Robben as a fullback, was the standout centerback in a CL final and a world cup final and Bayern's defensive record has been absolutely fantastic since he regular starts at centerback.

Sometimes I wonder, what exactly defenders today are supposed to do to be considered great?

I'll leave it at that, I've said more than enough about centerbacks today. I got way more involved than I wanted to.

 

[harms]

I don't think that's true. Often enough Gentile simply was lucky to finish the game, at least that's how I remember it (and I actually think the same about Ramos is basically every game I see him in). Sure you can call it smart, say he somehow 'knew' that he could get away with so much, but I struggle to see it that way. As an example, when Vogts fouled Cruyff early in the final in '74 and saw a yellow card, he simply didn't commit another foul after that. Gentile wasn't 'smart' like that or good enough to pull something like that off. It's probably true that Ramos is more a fool than Gentile was, but Gentile was much more than just a provoker, he needed to get away with his antics to be a great defender in my opinion and defenders today simply don't.

I don't know how to persuade you. Somehow Gentile's job on Maradona ruined his reputation here and he is seen like a simple smug who get away with murder. It may have been the case in that particular game, but I don't get that feeling from watching Gentile in Juve, when he is playing as a defender in the team and not as an almost free player who only has one job - to prevent Maradona/Zico from performing. to kick Maradona all the way back into his mothers womb

 

[antohan]

Van Bommel's a good shout - that quarter-final against Brazil in 2010 was extraordinary.

Followed up in the semi where he fouls Gargano just before their first goal (the gif ends just before the ball is laid off to Van Bronckhorst).

There's countless fouls in that game, as you can imagine, but one that sticks in my mind is how he turned losing possession into a foul against Uruguay:

It's amazing how calm Gargano was about it all, I would have de Jonged him sooner or later. Which I guess is the point as well... getting you riled up into a red card.

 

[antohan]

Impressive that Harms has gathered together players from four different Trap teams and each one is at the peak of their powers. That was always a huge appeal in him as a manager in this draft.

Always felt this draft was Trap's to lose. It's to his and EAPs credit that they managed to build contested sides that stayed true to the blueprint and, with some luck (unlike Lattek) managed to complete them.

Worthy finalists.

 

[antohan]

Gentile is a provoker, Ramos is a fool.

That's fair enough TBH.

 

[Balu]

I don't know how to persuade you.

You won't. Sorry . Anyway, it's not like your defense needs a 4th alltime great defender in it. 3 of them with a quite good one inbetween is certainly more than enough and I never called him bad, just that I could see him struggle and expect him to be up against Robben or Messi in one on one situations quite a few times in this game.

To close my participation in this game:
The game is actually closer than I thought. I'm not entirely sure why but I thought it would be easier to give you my vote before I saw both line-ups next to each other. For all my criticism about Gentile, it definitely should be stated again that your defense is fantastic and I think you made a good point about Furino being quite important for the protection from midfield. For TRV to win the game, he really needs his pressing to work, but I simply can't see that happening, at least not to the level he needs it to prevent you from getting the ball to Platini.

Anyway, both are fantastic teams and reflect the chosen managers incredibly well. Great work.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

You won't. Sorry .

What we need here, my friend, are some PES stats.

I won't post 'em, though - 'cause you won't like 'em!

Seriously, though - I understand perfectly well that you don't have any love to spare for Gentile. And it's not just about taste either - you may have a point when it comes to him, I'm honestly not sure. Perhaps I'm guilty of overrating him to an extent.

Still, my final words on the matter would be these: The Ramos comparison is an interesting one. Sticking with that I would suggest - much as harms did - that there is, in fact, a significant difference there: Gentile was not a tactically suspect defender - which Ramos is, in my book. He was a clever defender on top of being a dirty one. His man-marking ability went beyond the "ability" to rough up attackers, he actually knew how to position himself on the pitch, how to track his man, when to rush and when to hold back - and so forth.

 

[Balu]

I won't post 'em, though - 'cause you won't like 'em!

There's a good chance that's true

 

[Annahnomoss]

I am sure Balu has just, like many, seen the worst side of Gentile which is often highlighted when he's portrayed. Which is his man marking displays, often as a DMF(or in that zone), which of course wouldn't have been possible to the same extent these days. Even if I am sure he'd have had one of those "How did he get away with that" kind of games every single game - because even back in the days that was how it was.

But he had good acceleration good pace, which allowed him to have great performances in the wide RCB/LCB roles even when he was up against some incredibly fast, dribbling wingers. His reading of the game and positioning was incredible as well and he was always in the correct position and nobody can doubt his tackling, physicality and stamina.

I'd say he was the type of defender who grew in to games and became better and better as the opponents tired. Even excluding his most famous man marking jobs, which are just a few games out of a couple of hundreds - he was one of the greatest central defenders ever. Here is a great clip showing "what else" he had to offer more than just being that world class nasty man marker some people seem to have mistake him for.

I believe this is (mostly) pre-Cabrini after which he was moved to CB. He shows pace and acceleration, technique, good offensive runs, crosses etc etc. To add to his already brilliant positioning, anticipation, hard tackles and physicality.

 

[Kazi]

Best match-up I've seen so far in this draft.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Best match-up I've seen so far in this draft.

Agree. Real dream match up tactically and quality wise. Usually one team has quite a tactical advantage, but here it is damn even really with both teams capable of playing their own football well.

 

[Annahnomoss]

So far my vote is on Harms, he's grown to be one of the best drafters and he is putting in a lot of effort and is depicting his players with great accuracy and he seems to really understand his own team in depth and detail. TRV hasn't made his appearance so won't vote yet of course.

 

[antohan]

I am sure Balu has just, like many, seen the worst side of Gentile which is often highlighted when he's portrayed. Which is his man marking displays, often as a DMF(or in that zone), which of course wouldn't have been possible to the same extent these days. Even if I am sure he'd have had one of those "How did he get away with that" kind of games every single game - because even back in the days that was how it was.

But he had good acceleration good pace, which allowed him to have great performances in the wide RCB/LCB roles even when he was up against some incredibly fast, dribbling wingers. His reading of the game and positioning was incredible as well and he was always in the correct position and nobody can doubt his tackling, physicality and stamina.

I'd say he was the type of defender who grew in to games and became better and better as the opponents tired. Even excluding his most famous man marking jobs, which are just a few games out of a couple of hundreds - he was one of the greatest central defenders ever. Here is a great clip showing "what else" he had to offer more than just being that world class nasty man marker some people seem to have mistake him for.

He shows pace and acceleration, technique, good offensive runs, crosses etc etc. To add to his already brilliant positioning, anticipation, hard tackles and physicality.

The problem is precisely how his man-marking jobs are brought up as some sort of gold standard. They aren't, they were absolute carnage and even back then it was incredible that he got away with it. I've no time for those in this context where there are truckloads of defenders who can do a fine job without the need to butcher someone.

As was the case when I brought up the same thing with Annah, the issue isn't whether he would be red carded, but conceding dangerous free kicks or penos. Refs may have been more permissive, but what constitutes a foul hasn't changed much at all.

That said, he was a fine defender, no doubt about that. The whole provoking vs. being a fool thing is an interesting one re: would he be able to push the limits when these are re-drawn or would he just regularly lose the plot? In that sense he reminds me of another Juve hardman, one that got caught up in the changing fortunes of hardmen with stricter refereeing: Paolo Montero. He too wasn't a fool but largely a provoker, certainly a very intelligent player and one his teammates unconditionally supported as he racked up a record number of red cards. Yet, whenever he wasn't suspended he started, it was as simple as that. He was a risk worth taking and so would Gentile.

Nowhere near a GOAT, mind, but even taking all the gamesmanship away he was still one of the best of his times and one whose defensive attributes (positioning, tactical discipline, awareness, legal tackling, etc.) were a great fit for that backline. It's just that you can't overlook his defensive qualities to focus on banging on about his successful Maradona/Zico missions, and then complain he too should get away with murder here. Can't have your cake and eat it type thing.

 

[antohan]

On a more light-hearted note re: Gentile. Does anyone know whether his nickname (Gaddafi) was just them being dead-ringers or also him terrorising rivals? I always wondered...

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Hard as he may be, from what I read, Gentile is as smart as he is hard. The amount of work he was supposed to put in before crunch games points to tacit understanding of opponents and game play...something that you do not associate with usual usual thugs on the pitch. He was noted to have studied Maradona for 2 days before the match, not the sort you expect from someone who is reputed to a brainless knuckle-buster as he is often portrayed. I totally disagree that without his fouls, he would not have been a good defender. I think he was very intelligent and would have been good without being a hard man too.

Gentile on Maradona vs Nobby Stiles on Eusebio would be a worthy comparison. Stiles was nowhere gentle in those encounters and the fact is that he made many hard challenges that would have been multiple red cards in today's game.

I think this also fringes on tactical fouls. In current circumstances, it is often reactive in nature mostly designed to stop scoring. I would argue that Gentile used that as a offensive weapon and the rules allowed that at that point of time. Hard though it may be, I would classify Gentile's game play as mostly tactical fouls designed to strike fear or even bruise opponents.

 

[Balu]

On a more light-hearted note re: Gentile. Does anyone know whether his nickname (Gaddafi) was just them being dead-ringers or also him terrorising rivals? I always wondered...

Being born in Lybia probably played a role in that?

 

[antohan]

Being born in Lybia probably played a role in that?

D'oh! That's three things then. Thing is these days people's image of Gaddafi is an old ridiculous man being dragged around by an angry mob, but back in the 80s he was as synonymous with terrorism as Osama bin Laden today. It must have been on purpose (place of birth and physical appearance aside)?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The tactics gif in harms OP is really cool. How did you that @harms ?

 

[antohan]

I would classify Gentile's game play as mostly tactical fouls designed to strike fear or even bruise opponents.

Exhibit A from Annah's video above

I suppose if you call what van Bommel and de Jong did tactical fouls. Yep, absolutely.

 

[Balu]

D'oh! That's three things then. Thing is these days people's image of Gaddafi is an old ridiculous man being dragged around by an angry mob, but back in the 80s he was as synonymous with terrorism as Osama bin Laden today. It must have been on purpose (place of birth and physical appearance aside)?

The big question is, was he proud of that nickname? That would definitely help to determine how big a cnut he actually was.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I suppose if you call what van Bommel and de Jong did tactical fouls. Yep, absolutely.

I bet you could pull such videos of Souness breaking the players jaw, Keane stamping etc. I'm not claiming gentile to be Jesus reincarnate here

 

[Annahnomoss]

The problem is precisely how his man-marking jobs are brought up as some sort of gold standard. They aren't, they were absolute carnage and even back then it was incredible that he got away with it. I've no time for those in this context where there are truckloads of defenders who can do a fine job without the need to butcher someone.

As was the case when I brought up the same thing with Annah, the issue isn't whether he would be red carded, but conceding dangerous free kicks or penos. Refs may have been more permissive, but what constitutes a foul hasn't changed much at all.

That said, he was a fine defender, no doubt about that. The whole provoking vs. being a fool thing is an interesting one re: would he be able to push the limits when these are re-drawn or would he just regularly lose the plot? In that sense he reminds me of another Juve hardman, one that got caught up in the changing fortunes of hardmen with stricter refereeing: Paolo Montero. He too wasn't a fool but largely a provoker, certainly a very intelligent player and one his teammates unconditionally supported as he racked up a record number of red cards. Yet, whenever he wasn't suspended he started, it was as simple as that. He was a risk worth taking and so would Gentile.

Nowhere near a GOAT, mind, but even taking all the gamesmanship away he was still one of the best of his times and one whose defensive attributes (positioning, tactical discipline, awareness, legal tackling, etc.) were a great fit for that backline. It's just that you can't overlook his defensive qualities to focus on banging on about his successful Maradona/Zico missions, and then complain he too should get away with murder here. Can't have your cake and eat it type thing.

I think this is fair enough that he wouldn't go out on the field and completely man mark the best players in history alone if he couldn't resort to fouling, if he could he would be considered the best defender ever by quite a margin.

Even if Gentile is clearly in the GOAT stratosphere in terms of central defenders and irreplaceable for the Catenaccio/Zona Mista where you simply can't exclude him. It would be like kicking Boniek out of the Trapa team because he's not "GOAT" level, when nobody would do the job at stake needed as well as Boniek - with as much understanding of the team/his own players.

 

[harms]

The tactics gif in harms OP is really cool. How did you that @harms ?

This site (address is in the bottom right corner of the gif) allows you to create a different phases of the game and animates them. It is only available for a premium account, but they give you 1 month trial after the sign-up. It doesn't make a gif of it though, but it's not hard to capture a gif from your screen.