Manager draft Semi final - The Pep Vipers VS The Tramps

[Annahnomoss]

THE TEAM
The red Viper
Guardiola

Substitution & Change Of Tactics.

Thierry Henry OFF, Samuel Eto'o ON.


We will play the formation, Pep currently plays at Bayern Munich and did at Barcelona for a brief period during 2010-11 season. We shift to a three man back-line, where Jérôme Boateng will play as right-sided centre back, Carles Puyol centrally and Éric Abidal as left-sided centre back. The midfield three and the shape of it remains the same. Arjen Robben plays in the same role as he did before and does for Bayern Munich now. Philipp Lahm plays as a left wing-back/left midfielder. Lionel Messi plays as the second striker where he would have complete freedom to do whatever he wants. With Samuel Eto'o now being, there, we have a striker who can lead the line and play on the shoulders of the last defender. So, this would help Lionel Messi as well as Samuel Eto'o because now one of Gaetano Scirea/Claudio Gentile would have to keep track of the runs of Samuel Eto'o or they would leave him free. And, with the likes of Lionel Messi, Xavi Hernández and Andrés Iniesta at play, there are enough great passers who can find him free and provide the telling pass. This would also release Lionel Messi with some space as he would no longe be surrounded by defenders. Andrés Iniesta would look to drag towards the left flank and attack Giuseppe Bergomi. Philipp Lahm would overlap on that flank and look to provide a passing option and width down that flank. At the same time, when harm's team get on the ball, he would keep track of Zibì Boniek's runs from deep.

THE FORMATIONS
-------------------------------The red Viper-----------------------------------------------------------------------Harms

Trapattoni
Harms

This team is built on a fantastic foundation – defensive backline of Juventus and Italy with an upgrade on the only position that needed it – the great Bergomi steps up to replace Cuccureddu on the right. Scirea-Gentile defensive partnership formed the unparalleled compatibility to stop the opponents with the integration between Scirea’s elegant style and Gentile’s aggressive manner. On the left side, Cabrini was a brilliant anticipated player with high-level understanding of the game. The defensive line was much supported by commanding of Dino Zoff. They had better average lost goal per game and clean-sheet ratio than Milan's backline with Maldini, Costacurta, Baresi and Tassotti!

As if this defence needed the additional support, in midfield I have Giuseppe Furino shielding them. The key player for Juventus in the 70’s, he captained this side for 10 years and holds the record of the most Serie A titles won! His partner in midfield, Marco Tardelli is widely regarded as the greatest Italian defensive midfielder ever. Apart from contributing in defence he also used to make runs from midfield, which often ended in goals, like his probably most famous one – in 1982 WC final. On the right they are joined with Boniek, extremely hardworking and fast player, who is going to provide width on the right and occasional runs in the box.

I’m lucky to have probably the best goalscoring playmaker in history operating in my midfield and orchestrating the play. The spatial awareness of Michel Platini will help me to utilize Baggio’s and Boniek’s runs or to stretch the play if needed.

Up front I have a complementary duo in Baggio and Batistuta. Free-roaming Baggio will operate in a space that Batistuta will free for him, provide ball-caring runs and will offload some of Platini’s playmaking duties. Batigol will be a tough one to handle – incredibly strong striker with an impeccable movement, he will terrorize Pique (or Boateng, if he decides to play him) and Puyol.



My tactics are obvious. First and foremost – defence. Who are better equipped to face Messi and co than my Italians? I have far superior players to those, who played against Barca for Chelsea and Inter, both in player skill and tactical intelligence. And while my defence is coping nicely with his attackers, his defenders won’t be able to cope with mine. I have multiple ways to deliver the ball in the box - Platini, Scirea, Cabrini, Baggio and Boniek will make sure of that – and Batigol, Baggio, Platini and Boniek all can finish it. I have just too many credible ways to goal.

Spoiler

I always love to make mentality part of these equations too. Pep’s Barca always was a little soft, in my eyes, and they are against a very tough bunch. Zoff, Scirea, Bergomi, Furino, Boniek, Platini, Baggio and Batigol – all captained their club and national sides for years, there are so many leaders in my team! And we all remember what was the outcome the last time when The Red Viper was up against someone with never say die attitude.


PLAYER PROFILES

Semi-final picks

 

[MJJ]

Love your third option annah. Will vote for real later.

 

[Balu]

Seems like all my posts about Boateng being one of the best centerbacks in the world finally have an effect. Well deserved start for him ahead of Pique.

 

[Annahnomoss]

That Trapattoni Juventus were brilliant at alternating who made runs deep towards the defense to one touch the ball to someone who was making a run towards the opponents goal instead. I think that is the very ideal way to handle Barcelona who at their best had one of the best defenses in football history with that high press which was ruthless.

Not that it means that harms would have a huge advantage, but he is set up well to battle it out with one of the very greatest football sides in history which has been improved upon.

Scirea would need a perfect performance to handle the press in the defensive line though without ending up hoofing it, because as soon as that happens it is pretty much a big advantage for TRV the rest of the game. But I also think that Scirea when he's not himself on the ball in the build up would confuse the hell out of TRV here who never played against a libero in their life.

Scirea taking a step up and receiving a ball as a DM of sorts would be difficult to handle for TRV and I can see it being very successful in a way to bypass the press.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Obvious comment to begin with: The Lahm-on-Boniek tactic won't work when Boniek operates on the right. And even when he drifts across (which I assume he will be doing, at least partly), Lahm will need plenty of help to be able to cope with the combined force of Boniek and Cabrini.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Love your third option annah. Will vote for real later.

 

[harms]

Yes, an obvious point is that Boniek is free on the right (or do Lahm press him either way? it would be fun). He, Baggio and Cabrini would ensure that the ball comes forward, even if somehow Messi will stop Scirea and Busquets will stop Platini (which they won't be able to, in my opinion).

Busquets isn't a specialist man-marker, though Platini played against them all his career (and quite successfully). He relies on his reading of the game, which is outstanding, but he is up against Michel Platini, who was better in that component (and, to be fair, only a few were).

Messi never faced a defender so intelligent and technical. He is very good at high-pressing, but he still lacks pure defensive skills, obviously (because he didn't need them) - I don't think that Scirea would be experiencing any problems. Another point on Scirea-Messi - if Messi is constantly looking at Scirea, who plays as libero, he would constantly find himself in a very strange positions, far away from the goal - and he is the main TRV's goalthreat

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I definitely agree with Harms here that the best way to nullify that Pep team is with strength in defense and he's definitely got it. That defense with the front three of Boniek/Platini-Baggio-Batigol is incredible and he got the decent passers from deep to use them. Baggio and Batigol will murder this defense imo. Voting Harms

 

[harms]

What separates the teams mostly is still, the gap between defence and offence here. Messi, Robben and past his peak Henry are up against Scirea, Bergomi, Cabrini and Gentile, while Batistuta, Baggio and Platini, all at their very best, are up against Abidal, Puyol, Boateng and Lahm - only one defender there deserves to be up there with mine and he was asked to look at Boniek, actually. Boateng is an upgrade on Pique defensive-wise, but still, he is up against Roberto Baggio in his Ballon D'Or winning form.

And, as I stated in the write-up, my team will not struggle without service, especially with Cabrini and Boniek out-wide.

 

[sajeev]

TRV has got one of the weakest defences at this stage of a draft. will be murder (relatively speaking that is)

 

[antohan]

That Trap side is looking awesome. Functionally though, Baggio should be on the right of Batistuta so he can peel wide when Boniek isn't there. It looks better as it is, but that's not how they operated.

Not that replicating Bettega is necessary when you have Baggio, but it has a spillover on how Boniek works and therefore how Boniek-Platini works. I would.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think people make it a bit too simple by just going by individual qualities here. That Juventus side conceded more between 82-85(Boniek/Platini) than Barcelona did in their peak and quite a lot more even. Juventus conceded around a goal per game and Barcelona conceded in 10-11 around half of that with 0.5~ goals per game.

Barcelona also scored more per game, but Juventus were quite close actually. The tactical match up is what really matters here, rather than the individual differences as clearly Pep's defenses has always done way better as a whole than their individual quality.

Look at the 11-12 season when Abidal had cancer, and Adriano had to play in his place, Puyol was already old and Alves was never about defending. Pique was their star defender that season, and they conceded just 29 goals in the league even with a terrible back line. So I don't think it is as easy as saying "player 1 > player 1, player 2 > player 2".

This game would be incredibly even, and I'd say the new players, how they'd change things etc is a lot more match winning than any individual quality differences.

 

[Balu]

Look at the 11-12 season when Abidal had cancer, and Adriano had to play in his place, Puyol was already old and Alves was never about defending. Pique was their star defender that season, and they conceded just 29 goals in the league even with a terrible back line. So I don't think it is as easy as saying "player 1 > player 1, player 2 > player 2".

Pique was doing Shakira that season, which kinda made him a star, but also meant he only started 17 games in the league, because Pep didn't like it at all. Mascherano was by far their best centerback that season, which still proves your point that Pep knows how to organise an excellent high defensive line of course. Pique in 11/12 isn't really the best example for it though

 

[harms]

That Trap side is looking awesome. Functionally though, Baggio should be on the right of Batistuta so he can peel wide when Boniek isn't there. It looks better as it is, but that's not how they operated.

Not that replicating Bettega is necessary when you have Baggio, but it has a spillover on how Boniek works and therefore how Boniek-Platini works. I would.

I thought about that, maybe you're right here. I implied some of that with Baggio being the "free-roaming" one, but maybe it was worth specifying.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Pique was doing Shakira that season, which kinda made him a star, but also meant he only started 17 games in the league, because Pep didn't like it at all. Mascherano was by far their best centerback that season, which still proves your point that Pep knows how to organise an excellent high defensive line of course. Pique in 11/12 isn't really the best example for it though

Cheers!

 

[Joga Bonito]

Love harms lopsided formation. Looks brilliant.

Don't think having Busquets close to Platini would work at all. That isnt exactly how Busquets should be utilized anyway IMO.

Cant see Henry having too much joy against Bergomi. How do you guys see Robben vs Cabrini panning out? Think this might be the best route for TRV imo esp since Carbini will be needed to provide some thrust and width with forward runs down the left flank with the lopsided formation. Carbini is not some gung ho full back who is going to get caught out of position repeatedly. Just think Robben has higher chances of success with Carbini needed to be slightly more adventurous with Bergomi on the other side and without a genuine wing presence on Carbini's flank although Baggio can drift there at times. Robben still has Gentile on that side to deal with mind you.

Leaning towards harms here but will wait to hear out TRV.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

To an extent I'd agree with your analysis, @Annahnomoss. One might argue that the reason Barca conceded so little was that the system as such worked, in practice, as a form of collective defense - it's the epitome of the "you can't score against us if you don't have the ball" approach. The back four was very much functional within that system - and as such it was an underrated defense, yes: They were very good at what they were supposed to be doing, in short. They were clearly not very good at defending against any sort of sustained pressure, however - neither individually nor as a unit. But the latter point was always a moot one - because they hardly ever came under sustained pressure, which was no coincidence, of course - and testament to the fact that the system worked, brilliantly so.

In this match they'll face a cagey side - and thus it's reasonable to say that they won't be put under a great, sustained pressure for extensive periods. In other words, the potential weakness of that defense won't be highlighted to an alarming degree. Not on the face of it anyway.

 

[Balu]

Robben still has Gentile on that side to deal with mind you.

If Gentile makes it through the game without getting sent off, harms should win the game. I expect him to get into quite a few dramatic situations against Robben and Messi though. The question is, will there be one too many?

 

[Balu]

They were clearly not very good at defending against any sort of sustained pressure, however - neither individually nor as a unit. But the latter point was always a moot one - because they hardly ever came under sustained pressure, which was no coincidence, of course - and testament to the fact that the system worked, brilliantly so.

I'm not sure you can really say that for those 4 defenders as individuals. I'd understand that point with Alves and Pique in the back four, but all of Abidal, Puyol, Boateng and Lahm played under several managers and excelled in different teams, in very different roles and handled quite a few one on one situations against truely great attackers very well.

 

[sajeev]

I think people make it a bit too simple by just going by individual qualities here. That Juventus side conceded more between 82-85(Boniek/Platini) than Barcelona did in their peak and quite a lot more even. Juventus conceded around a goal per game and Barcelona conceded in 10-11 around half of that with 0.5~ goals per game.

Barcelona also scored more per game, but Juventus were quite close actually. The tactical match up is what really matters here, rather than the individual differences as clearly Pep's defenses has always done way better as a whole than their individual quality.

Look at the 11-12 season when Abidal had cancer, and Adriano had to play in his place, Puyol was already old and Alves was never about defending. Pique was their star defender that season, and they conceded just 29 goals in the league even with a terrible back line. So I don't think it is as easy as saying "player 1 > player 1, player 2 > player 2".

This game would be incredibly even, and I'd say the new players, how they'd change things etc is a lot more match winning than any individual quality differences.

I think you are making the same mistake here of making it too simple. The fact is that the Barca team hardly faced decent opposition in the league, so they didn't concede that many goals. of course it is also the overall system of keeping the ball which made it difficult for the opposition to score. however, i am of the opinion it is not going to work here.

 

[Annahnomoss]

If Gentile makes it through the game without getting sent off, harms should win the game. I expect him to get into quite a few dramatic situations against Robben and Messi. The question is, will there be one too many?

Not sure how serious one should take this. Gentile was never sent off in his career, which was 500-600 matches. Not because he never committed a foul, but because the rules back then allowed players to be more physical and foul more. Every single defender committed what in modern football would be yellow and red cards nonstop, not just Gentile but even Scirea who was one of those considered to be the opposite of Gentile.

Still he went in to challenges, and took tactical fouls in a manner which would never allow him to finish most matches these days.

Can't really hold it against every single defender from a previous era that the rules were different.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'm not sure you can really say that for those 4 defenders as individuals. I'd understand that point with Alves and Pique in the back four, but all of Abidal, Puyol, Boateng and Lahm played under several managers and excelled in different teams, in very different roles and handled quite a few one on one situations against truely great attackers very well.

Well, it's debatable - certainly. If we're talking "top draft quality" here, I don't think they qualify individually, though * - certainly not compared to the opposition.

My point was directed more at the actual Barca team which is the model here, though - so, yes, I'd say TRV's present back four is an upgrade on that.

* With the exception of Lahm, be it said, who wouldn't look out of place in a "top draft quality" team of any kind.

 

[harms]

If Gentile makes it through the game without getting sent off, harms should win the game. I expect him to get into quite a few dramatic situations against Robben and Messi. The question is, will there be one too many?

As Annah stated in the last draft, he was the master of not getting sent off though - different sources says that he was either never sent off or had been sent off one time in his career. I think it's only fair to judge the defenders by the standards of defending/refereeing of their time, like how we judge the physical form of 50/60's players or the shot power of Bobby Charlton, for example. It's fair to assume that he wouldn't be so brutal if he would've been sent off for every second challenge.
Robben will be a hard one to handle though, harder than Messi for him, in my opinion, fecking flying dutchman . Good thing that he isn't playing directly against him.

 

[harms]

Not sure how serious one should take this. Gentile was never sent off in his career, which was 500-600 matches. Not because he never committed a foul, but because the rules back then allowed players to be more physical and foul more. Every single defender committed what in modern football would be yellow and red cards nonstop, not just Gentile but even Scirea who was one of those considered to be the opposite of Gentile.

Still he went in to challenges, and took tactical fouls in a manner which would never allow him to finish most matches these days.

Can't really hold it against every single defender from a previous era that the rules were different.

Oh, why did I ever bothered to write my thing up

 

[Joga Bonito]

If Gentile makes it through the game without getting sent off, harms should win the game. I expect him to get into quite a few dramatic situations against Robben and Messi though. The question is, will there be one too many?

Yup I remember Annahnomoss placed Gentile on the left instead of Bossis against Robben and it didn't turn out well for him. Although he did make a decent case for it.

If there are one too many one on ones with Messi and Robben, you'd really favour them even against the great defense of harms. Furino and Tardelli are one heck of a midfield duo thoug and I can see them shielding his defense very well and restrict these situations as best as they can.

 

[Balu]

Well, it's debatable - certainly. If we're talking "top draft quality" here, I don't think they qualify individually, though - certainly not compared to the opposition.

Well, Lahm is in my opinion clearly the best fullback on the pitch and that's no slight on Cabrini. And I struggle to see how Gentile is individually a better defender than Puyol was or performed on a higher level than Boateng did in the past 2 years. harms' defense as a unit is beautiful of course, no doubt about that.

As Annah stated in the last draft, he was the master of not getting sent off though - different sources says that he was either never sent off or had been sent off one time in his career. I think it's only fair to judge the defenders by the standards of defending/refereeing of their time, like how we judge the physical form of 50/60's players or the shot power of Bobby Charlton, for example. It's fair to assume that he wouldn't be so brutal if he would've been sent off for every second challenge.
Robben will be a hard one to handle though, harder than Messi for him, in my opinion, fecking flying dutchman . Good thing that he isn't playing directly against him.

I just think that without the 'fouling', Gentile is a worse defender. Scirea and Bergomi simply were great defenders, even if you take the cynical part of the game back then away. The same isn't true for Gentile in my opinion. Fair enough, he probably would adapt and might not get sent off, but then I can see him as a bit of a weak link (relative to the strength of your other 3 defenders of course).

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think you are making the same mistake here of making it too simple. The fact is that the Barca team hardly faced decent opposition in the league, so they didn't concede that many goals. of course it is also the overall system of keeping the ball which made it difficult for the opposition to score. however, i am of the opinion it is not going to work here.

The numbers aren't supposed to be taken too extremely. It just highlights that even if there was a huge individual quality advantage for Harms, it doesn't mean they as a team conceded any less goals. In fact they conceded more in the league and a similar amount in the Champions League.

Yes it is true that Serie A may have been arguably slightly stronger in 82-85 in terms of opponents than La Liga in Pep's run there, but I think that Juve's CL runs were at the same time much much easier.

To put it in perspective, Juve beat Widzew Łódź in the semi final with 4-2 on agg. to make it to the final.

 

[harms]

That Juventus side conceded more between 82-85(Boniek/Platini) than Barcelona did in their peak and quite a lot more even.

I think that it had a lot to do with Bonini replacing Furino, actually. He was better in build-up but never in the same league defensively/tactically.

 

[Gio]

I just think that without the 'fouling', Gentile is a worse defender. Scirea and Bergomi simply were great defenders, even if you take the cynical part of the game back then away. The same isn't true for Gentile in my opinion. Fair enough, he probably would adapt and might not get sent off, but then I can see him as a bit of a weak link (relative to the strength of your other 3 defenders of course).

Agree with this. If we take Spain '82 for instance, there were many times Maradona and Zico were away from Gentile, but he just tore them down regardless. Does that twice here and he's off. The other concern for Harms is TRV overloading the right flank. Baggio won't work back so it's Cabrini v Lahm and Robben. At the other end, the main issue for TRV is Busquets struggling to get a handle on Platini.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Well, Lahm is in my opinion clearly the best fullback on the pitch and that's no slight on Cabrini.

Hehe - yeah, I added a line on him.

As for Gentile versus Puyol - I guess it depends on many factors. I think Puyol is probably a bit underrated by those who simply hate Barca's style - but for me he is still a bit lacking compared to the very best. Gentile is a specialist - extremely good at what he does, and he isn't asked to do anything beyond that here. Individually, though, as a footballer - then no, I suppose he ain't a truly great player, unlike both Scirea and Bergomi.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Well, Lahm is in my opinion clearly the best fullback on the pitch and that's no slight on Cabrini. And I struggle to see how Gentile is individually a better defender than Puyol was or performed on a higher level than Boateng did in the past 2 years. harms' defense as a unit is beautiful of course, no doubt about that.


I just think that without the 'fouling', Gentile is a worse defender. Scirea and Bergomi simply were great defenders, even if you take the cynical part of the game back then away. The same isn't true for Gentile in my opinion. Fair enough, he probably would adapt and might not get sent off, but then I can see him as a bit of a weak link (relative to the strength of your other 3 defenders of course).

Really pointless discussion. You realize that even if it is true that Bergomi and Scirea would handle the rule change better, they'd never be half the defenders of those who actually played with the modern rules. So picking them at all becomes void, making the entire draft completely dysfunctional.

What makes you think that Scirea would somehow be better at the modern game than Rio Ferdinand? Bringing up stuff like rule changes is completely irrelevant. The physical level of players in the days were also terrible, Platini for example was an enthusiastic smoker. You think that is the level of physique that would be enough by todays standards?

I guess we should consider Platini a lazy smoker who wouldn't handle the pace of the game etc etc. There's just endless of examples of how the game has changed, and if we have a draft we can't judge them based on how they'd fair in modern rules, on modern pitches, with modern requirements.

We should compare the players within their own era, that is all they could ever be judged based on.

 

[antohan]

I think people make it a bit too simple by just going by individual qualities here. That Juventus side conceded more between 82-85(Boniek/Platini) than Barcelona did in their peak and quite a lot more even. Juventus conceded around a goal per game and Barcelona conceded in 10-11 around half of that with 0.5~ goals per game.

Barcelona also scored more per game, but Juventus were quite close actually. The tactical match up is what really matters here, rather than the individual differences as clearly Pep's defenses has always done way better as a whole than their individual quality.

Look at the 11-12 season when Abidal had cancer, and Adriano had to play in his place, Puyol was already old and Alves was never about defending. Pique was their star defender that season, and they conceded just 29 goals in the league even with a terrible back line. So I don't think it is as easy as saying "player 1 > player 1, player 2 > player 2".

This game would be incredibly even, and I'd say the new players, how they'd change things etc is a lot more match winning than any individual quality differences.

Spot on, Barca's defensive strategy wasn't based on the individuals but how the entire team went about playing football, hogging the ball and pressing like crazy when it was lost. We all know that, and it worked wonders for them.

 

[Balu]

Really pointless discussion. You realize that even if it is true that Bergomi and Scirea would handle the rule change better, they'd never be half the defenders of those who actually played with the modern rules. So picking them at all becomes void, making the entire draft completely dysfunctional.

What makes you think that Scirea would somehow be better at the modern game than Rio Ferdinand? Bringing up stuff like rule changes is completely irrelevant. The physical level of players in the days were also terrible, Platini for example was an enthusiastic smoker. You think that is the level of physique that would be enough by todays standards?

I guess we should consider Platini a lazy smoker who wouldn't handle the pace of the game etc etc. There's just endless of examples of how the game has changed, and if we have a draft we can't judge them based on how they'd fair in modern rules, on modern pitches, with modern requirements.

We should compare the players within their own era, that is all they could ever be judged based on.

The point is, Gentile simply wasn't individually a great defender. I don't care what rules you allow for this game. If Gentile is allowed to tear Robben's shirt apart, then Busquets surely should be allowed to do the same with Platini? I'm sure Busquets is as sneaky and cnutish as Gentile and appreciates it.

Unless of course you're saying Gentile should be allowed to foul as much as he wants, but the modern defenders on the pitch shouldn't. That's in my opinion simply nonsense.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Agree with this. If we take Spain '82 for instance, there were many times Maradona and Zico were away from Gentile, but he just tore them down regardless. Does that twice here and he's off.

Yes - but...would he do that if he knew he couldn't get away with it? Gentile was a top, top man marker in his day. He was clever, ruthless, call-it-what-ye-will. It's not unreasonable to think that he'd manage to profit from those qualities even if he couldn't profit from...beating people up, bar brawl style.

It's really a variation on Annah's smoking theme, for me. It's not unreasonable to assume that Platini or Socrates wouldn't have blazed up like there was no tomorrow if the culture had been different.

 

[antohan]

Really pointless discussion. You realize that even if it is true that Bergomi and Scirea would handle the rule change better, they'd never be half the defenders of those who actually played with the modern rules. So picking them at all becomes void, making the entire draft completely dysfunctional.

What makes you think that Scirea would somehow be better at the modern game than Rio Ferdinand? Bringing up stuff like rule changes is completely irrelevant. The physical level of players in the days were also terrible, Platini for example was an enthusiastic smoker. You think that is the level of physique that would be enough by todays standards?

I guess we should consider Platini a lazy smoker who wouldn't handle the pace of the game etc etc. There's just endless of examples of how the game has changed, and if we have a draft we can't judge them based on how they'd fair in modern rules, on modern pitches, with modern requirements.

We should compare the players within their own era, that is all they could ever be judged based on.

Conversely, that's a bit harsh on Robben isn't it? What's the point of him if a defender can just hack him down at will all game long just because in his days it was fine?

You make allowances for fitness, physical condidtioning, pitches, balls, boots, etc. but when a player consistently resorted to fouls when beaten you have to bear that in mind. Neither Scirea nor Bergomi did, they probably would on occasion, but that's absolutely not what their defending revolved around.

 

[Balu]

Yes - but...would he do that if he knew he couldn't get away with it? Gentile was a top, top man marker in his day. He was clever, ruthless, call-it-what-ye-will. It's not unreasonable to think that he'd manage to profit from those qualities even if he couldn't profit from...beating people up, bar brawl style.

It's really a variation on Annah's smoking theme, for me. It's not unreasonable to assume that Platini or Socrates wouldn't have blazed up like there was no tomorrow if the culture had been different.

I'm not sure the smoking theme is a great point to make actually. The specifics of the era allowed Platini to get away with smoking and Gentile to get away with fouling. Take the specifics away, 'normalise' the game over all eras and all of a sudden Platini is an even better player, Gentile a worse one, which kinda proves my point.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'm not sure the smoking theme is a great point to make actually. The specifics of the era allowed Platini to get away with smoking and Gentile to get away with fouling. Take the specifics away, 'normalise' the game over all eras and all of a sudden Platini is an even better player, Gentile a worse one, which kinda proves my point.

That presupposes that Gentile's main quality was his ability to beat people up in a manner which he wouldn't have gotten away with today. Which is a debatable point of view. Means to an end and all that. He did what he could to take his man out of the match - by means that aren't allowed in today's football. The question is whether he was defined by the means - or by his ability to use them to his advantage.

Or something.

Also, you clearly underrate the importance of smoking. There is no doubt whatsoever, for instance, that Messi would have been considerably better if he'd smoked forty a day. Would have done wonders for his creativity - and his sex appeal, not least.

 

[harms]

Anyway, as I said, Gentile isn't going to have a lot one-on-one situations without the cover. When I'm defending, there is Cabrini on the left, Tardelli and Furino in front of him and Scirea on the right. He doesn't have a special man-marking duty like he had against Zico and Maradona in 1982, when he was at his worst behaviour.

Same goes for Gio's concern about my left flank - why are you not counting Tardelli here? Robben and Lahm will occasionally beat Cabrini, with one of them going on the flank and passing slightly backwards to the left to the other, as they do so well, but this is where Tardelli will be.

On Barca's system - the whole high-pressing system worked brilliantly defensive-wise, but, then again, when the attackers did run at Puyol and Pique, they weren't great - and that's when their individual qualities came short. They work well when the system works well, but I believe that my team is suited to overcome this system and so, to highlight their weaknesses.

 

[Balu]

That presupposes that Gentile's main quality was his ability to beat people up in a manner which he wouldn't have gotten away with today. Which is a debatable point of view. Means to an end and all that. He did what he could to take his man out of the match - by means that aren't allowed in today's football. The question is whether he was defined by the means - or by his ability to use them to his advantage.

I'd say he was a decent defender, nothing more, but (let's call it) creative enough to bend the rules of the game as much as possible to perform on a higher level. None of the defenders today can bend the rules as much as he did and the era Gentile played in had many great defenders, who simply didn't had to that. Why should he deserve credit for it in comparison to players today?

It's like saying, Busquets is a brilliant defensive midfielders, because he's great at getting opponents sent off for faking punches against his face. That certainly wouldn't have worked in the 80's. Should we give him credit for it? Means to an end and all that.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I'm not sure the smoking theme is a great point to make actually. The specifics of the era allowed Platini to get away with smoking and Gentile to get away with fouling. Take the specifics away, 'normalise' the game over all eras and all of a sudden Platini is an even better player, Gentile a worse one, which kinda proves my point.

WTF? No that doesn't make sense at all? instead Platini was addicted to smoking. If he was playing in the modern game and still smoked 20 per days he'd struggle compared to the other players who didn't smoke heavily. So his physical abilities would hold him back as a footballer, but because the average physical level was much lower than today he got away with it.

The legends even further back in time used to drink and smoke, some even at match days. All this "how would X do in the modern era" is nonsense. Gentile is one of the best central defenders in history, let's leave it at that.

Not a single defender from 1900-1980 deserves to be included in these drafts then, the further back you go the more they got away with and if you just look at their actual individual qualities it is safe to say they are nowhere near the professionals of today.