Managers' leeway for defensive tactics

[CasaStreets]

Posted about this in the Ole interview review and I think it needs a thread.

In Ole's interview, he says being more aggressive than his squad allowed ultimately cost him his job. He felt the fans demanded a more aggressive style and wanted to shift away from counter-attacking. It became clear the team couldn't maintain standards when he shifted to more attacking football.

EtH is playing extremely open football that it's clear our squad can't support. We don't press well enough up top. Our CBs aren't fast enough to push high up. That's exposing Casemiro, who hasn't got the legs to cover the gap that's exposed between front and back.

My question is whether Ole was right. Had he reached a point where better football was expected and required for the fans to continue supporting him? And looking forward, how long would you give a manager (EtH or new manager) who plays defensive counter-attacking football, consistently finishes top 4 or 5 (qualifies for CL), but never challenges for the title?

 

[Spark]

So many hypotheticals.

I just want us to challenge for all trophies and be one of the best teams in England.

And that should be doable considering how wealthy we are. It’s chronic mismanagement and decline over the last 15 years that is personified by weak, inept performances from season to season.

 

[KjaAnd]

I do agree neither Ole nor Erik has had the squad to play the kind of aggressive football we should be looking to play. However, I doubt either of them would be able to match Klopp, Artete and Pep even if they had a better squads.

Having mobile players is not enough to press high effectively and play attractive football. It requires expert tactical knowledge - something neither Ole nor Erik seem to possess. This also explains why identifying the right manager is of highest priority, although I’m somewhat skeptical of the options available at the moment.

 

[arthurka]

I do agree neither Ole nor Erik has had the squad to play the kind of aggressive football we should be looking to play. However, I doubt either of them would be able to match Klopp, Artete and Pep even if they had a better squads.

Having mobile players is not enough to press high effectively and play attractive football. It requires expert tactical knowledge - something neither Ole nor Erik seem to possess. This also explains why identifying the right manager is of highest priority, although I’m somewhat skeptical of the options available at the moment.

Hhhuummm wonder what about 800m could do to build a squad? Only if they had some backing.

 

[Cheimoon]

So many hypotheticals.

I just want us to challenge for all trophies and be one of the best teams in England.

And that should be doable considering how wealthy we are. It’s chronic mismanagement and decline over the last 15 years that is personified by weak, inept performances from season to season.

This doesn't answer the questions at all. Let's try and actually respond on topic.

 

[KjaAnd]

Hhhuummm wonder what about 800m could do to build a squad? Only if they had some backing.

I completely agree they’ve had backing and are partly at fault for our horrible squad building.

 

[Lash]

For me it comes down to the signings you make when you're looking to take that next step. Ole signed Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo on the basis it would take them to the next level and I'm sure when he asked for those players, that was the intention.

If after that he turns round and says, I actually need more than than that and the wheels fall off, you probably have to question the managers squad building capabilities.

Same can be said for Ten Hag, but I think he was slightly hampered with injuries and the Greenwood debacle, his squad building capabilities has to be questioned. That's being said, he did win us silverware, so I think he does get one more seasons worth of rope and provided he is on the same page with the new footballing hierachy.

 

[Roboc7]

If a manager wants to play a particular way then I think they did to start working on playing that way or at least instilling elements of it from day one. You may well crash and burn but all our managers post SAF have just sleepwalked into getting the sack by playing very bland and out dated football at time.

Likes of Klopp and Arteta took a lot of criticism and had varying success trying to make teams adapt to their style despite the players not really being up to the job but reaped benefits in the end. Over time that is a better way of doing it rather than trying to pivot from one way of playing to another after being in the job for 2-3 seasons.

 

[arthurka]

I completely agree they’ve had backing and are partly at fault for our horrible squad building.

Of course they are they have bought some real duds on some of the biggest contacts in world football.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Posted about this in the Ole interview review and I think it needs a thread.

In Ole's interview, he says being more aggressive than his squad allowed ultimately cost him his job. He felt the fans demanded a more aggressive style and wanted to shift away from counter-attacking. It became clear the team couldn't maintain standards when he shifted to more attacking football.

EtH is playing extremely open football that it's clear our squad can't support. We don't press well enough up top. Our CBs aren't fast enough to push high up. That's exposing Casemiro, who hasn't got the legs to cover the gap that's exposed between front and back.

My question is whether Ole was right. Had he reached a point where better football was expected and required for the fans to continue supporting him? And looking forward, how long would you give a manager (EtH or new manager) who plays defensive counter-attacking football, consistently finishes top 4 or 5 (qualifies for CL), but never challenges for the title?

Ole was correct. He tried to take the leap to better more front foot football with the squad and it was ultimately his undoing. Because by the end of theprevious season, even though he had lost a european final thanks to De Gea being poor at everything to do with penalties, the fan tied had started to significantly turn against his defend deep and counter use of the players at his disposal. Factor into tha the added a 28 year old Varane, Sancho and CR7. Going for a more proactive style was the only logical next step the fans were going to tolerate.

It can be argued the exact same cycle is happening with ETH. Only that fans have lost patience much faster because they believed ETH to be a far higher calibre of manager than Ole ever was.


Personally I believe in giving a manager who has started as Ole and ETH did 3 years.

The first season always tends to be steadying the ship. Restoring morale and baseline performance with wing as a bonua


The second is usually to see if what is available in the squad with a few additions can take the leap to the style the manager really wants to implement and the board decides to fully commit to it. The year in which bad apples and bad characters for the standards are sifted out.

Then the third being the year when the ideal 11 and squad for that given manager are recruited and set, to implement from day one his ideal footballing phyilosophy and actually mount a serious challenge according to the scale of the club's ambitions. That in my view is the season in which sacking or renewing should be logically done. The season in which if he is sacked, someone better at implementing the exact style he was installing is recruited, since the playing squad is by then completely geared to that footballing direction.

 

[Skills]

By the time Ole was sacked, he'd signed Harry Maguire for a WR fee, AWB for £50m and Varane the same summer. That + Shaw was the backline that got butchered 5-0 by Liverpool at Old Trafford in our worst ever home defeat since 1930.

 

[Baneofthegame]

May be we should stop blowing our transfer budget on 3 players and look to find players who are more reasonable in price who fit the system we want to play.

 

[led_scholes]

So, Ole decided to stop playing counter football, after having already spend 120 millions on Maguire and AWB, players suited only for defensive football. Smart guy.

Same with ETH. If your players can't play your football, don't play them. I m sure if he had make it clear that Bruno, McT and Rashford are not suited to his plan, a solution would be found. Instead, we buy a mix of players who can play his football (Onana, Antony, Malacia, Hojlund), and we have others who don't. This won't work and we see it every week.

 

[cyril C]

Posted about this in the Ole interview review and I think it needs a thread.

In Ole's interview, he says being more aggressive than his squad allowed ultimately cost him his job. He felt the fans demanded a more aggressive style and wanted to shift away from counter-attacking. It became clear the team couldn't maintain standards when he shifted to more attacking football.

EtH is playing extremely open football that it's clear our squad can't support. We don't press well enough up top. Our CBs aren't fast enough to push high up. That's exposing Casemiro, who hasn't got the legs to cover the gap that's exposed between front and back.

My question is whether Ole was right. Had he reached a point where better football was expected and required for the fans to continue supporting him? And looking forward, how long would you give a manager (EtH or new manager) who plays defensive counter-attacking football, consistently finishes top 4 or 5 (qualifies for CL), but never challenges for the title?

Ole may have been right about the change, but why DIDn't he fell back to counter-attack in Oct/Nov, when it clearly didn't work and very likely costing his job? He practically had the same squad as 1st season.

ETH prefer more open play, and might have problem with the inherited squad in 1st season, but 1.5 seasons later, with 300m+ spent, why is it still not working?

Excuse is what kids use when things don't work out, Managers, being paid multi-million pound, plus billion pound budget, has no excuse after 3 months.

 

[Acquire Me]

I do agree neither Ole nor Erik has had the squad to play the kind of aggressive football we should be looking to play. However, I doubt either of them would be able to match Klopp, Arteta and Pep even if they had a better squads.

Having mobile players is not enough to press high effectively and play attractive football. It requires expert tactical knowledge - something neither Ole nor Erik seem to possess. This also explains why identifying the right manager is of highest priority, although I’m somewhat skeptical of the options available at the moment.

Arteta was a laughing stock on here and in the media/social media after seasons that was well under what people expect from a manager. They gave him time that he needed and at the same time they had a proper structure over him to help him build and progress. So, I find it both funny and peculiar the view that the manager lack tactical knowledge. You and I both know you and many others on here would say the same about Arteta.

 

[90 + 5min]

Posted about this in the Ole interview review and I think it needs a thread.

In Ole's interview, he says being more aggressive than his squad allowed ultimately cost him his job. He felt the fans demanded a more aggressive style and wanted to shift away from counter-attacking. It became clear the team couldn't maintain standards when he shifted to more attacking football.

EtH is playing extremely open football that it's clear our squad can't support. We don't press well enough up top. Our CBs aren't fast enough to push high up. That's exposing Casemiro, who hasn't got the legs to cover the gap that's exposed between front and back.

My question is whether Ole was right. Had he reached a point where better football was expected and required for the fans to continue supporting him? And looking forward, how long would you give a manager (EtH or new manager) who plays defensive counter-attacking football, consistently finishes top 4 or 5 (qualifies for CL), but never challenges for the title?

I am still saying he got thrown under the buss by some players that have done that couple of times with other managers.
We should also look at fans who are demanding that managers perform miracles with players. They put pressure and demand instant trophies.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

So, Ole decided to stop playing counter football, after having already spend 120 millions on Maguire and AWB, players suited only for defensive football. Smart guy.

Same with ETH. If your players can't play your football, don't play them. I m sure if he had make it clear that Bruno, McT and Rashford are not suited to his plan, a solution would be found. Instead, we buy a mix of players who can play his football (Onana, Antony, Malacia, Hojlund), and we have others who don't. This won't work and we see it every week.

The idea that Maguire is 'only suited for defensive football' is so weird, like literally meaningless

 

[Grande]

I do agree neither Ole nor Erik has had the squad to play the kind of aggressive football we should be looking to play. However, I doubt either of them would be able to match Klopp, Artete and Pep even if they had a better squads.

Having mobile players is not enough to press high effectively and play attractive football. It requires expert tactical knowledge - something neither Ole nor Erik seem to possess. This also explains why identifying the right manager is of highest priority, although I’m somewhat skeptical of the options available at the moment.

Up until this season, Ten Hag was widely regarded by real football experts (not pundits) as one of the tactically most knowledgeable in the world. At the point Solskjær was a month away from the sack, he was still considered a better manager than Arteta by most watchers.

What you are saying, is that you hope the Ineos people don’t listen to people like us, and stick to people like Ten Hag werher we like it or not.

 

[tenpoless]

All comes down into the characteristics of players we signed. There are players who are only decent, even below our current players when it comes into reputation but are more comfortable playing aggressive football. Thankfully SJR seemed to notice this. We have hired multiple reputable managers with different styles but most of the players have always been mismatch. Either forced signings because we are afraid of missing out to rivals, second or third option because we lacked the initiative to go after the first one, or overpaying after letting the window drags on for too long just so we can fill the position. How many players do you think we can look back and say "thats a very well thoughtout transfer and exactly what we need"?

If you want to build a golden statue but what you have is only a few gold glitters in cow dung then it will never happen in a million years. The managers did play a part, but these days they have a lot of help when it comes into transfers. The days of managers picking players one by one are long gone. Especially the habbit of going after players they know for safety.

 

[FortunaUtd]

The manager has all the leeway to play however the feck he wants as long as he is successful. People complain about Contes football but to me his compact and transition style is great to watch when it is on song, and when he is coaching teams with mediocre players to punch above their weight and win trophies.
The problems start when you want to rival, or become, the very best, as with defensive tactics you are likely not going to be successful in a title race where 1 point are 2 dropped points.
We are crying out for progressive, attacking football not because we are hopeless romantics but because it is what ultimately makes a top team really successful, generally, nowadays.

 

[KjaAnd]

Arteta was a laughing stock on here and in the media/social media after seasons that was well under what people expect from a manager. They gave him time that he needed and at the same time they had a proper structure over him to help him build and progress. So, I find it both funny and peculiar the view that the manager lack tactical knowledge. You and I both know you and many others on here would say the same about Arteta.

I wouldn’t have and I didn’t for the simple reason that Arsenal’s performances under Arteta were never as consistently inept as ours this year. We’re getting dominated almost every single week by awful football teams while barely creating chances ourselves. I never saw that from Arteta.

 

[Sandikan]

For me it comes down to the signings you make when you're looking to take that next step. Ole signed Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo on the basis it would take them to the next level and I'm sure when he asked for those players, that was the intention.

If after that he turns round and says, I actually need more than than that and the wheels fall off, you probably have to question the managers squad building capabilities.

Same can be said for Ten Hag, but I think he was slightly hampered with injuries and the Greenwood debacle, his squad building capabilities has to be questioned. That's being said, he did win us silverware, so I think he does get one more seasons worth of rope and provided he is on the same page with the new footballing hierachy.

That summer and the signings were a simple make or break.

You can't throw that much money around and buy players of that level and still rely on the McFred continuum and then racing away with Rashy on the break.

 

[led_scholes]

The idea that Maguire is 'only suited for defensive football' is so weird, like literally meaningless

No, he can play at an attacking team. Just not a team that can challenge in the highest level.

 

[Ekeke]

No, he can play at an attacking team. Just not a team that can challenge in the highest level.

Is International football not the highest level?

 

[Amar__]

We don't play classic attacking football under Ten Hag. We play completely random type of defensive and attacking football at the same time.

I am sure many teams play with more players in the box once they reach it, because we don't put much players in the box generally, but yet any time we lose the ball around opposition box, it seems like there is no one behind it and they cut through it easily.

 

[led_scholes]

Is International football not the highest level?

Is England playing attacking football? I am not watching England regularly, but in the World Cup, they didnt play attacking football against the better sides.

 

[Acquire Me]

I wouldn’t have and I didn’t for the simple reason that Arsenal’s performances under Arteta were never as consistently inept as ours this year. We’re getting dominated almost every single week by awful football teams while barely creating chances ourselves. I never saw that from Arteta.

It was really bad. He even lost a big part of the match goers. But all is forgotten now.

 

[Ekeke]

Is England playing attacking football? I am not watching England regularly, but in the World Cup, they didnt play attacking football against the better sides.

Why does that matter when you're suggesting Maguire cant play in a team competing at the highest level? I'm not a big fan of Southgate his selections or tactics, but the fact is England narrowly lost in the finals of the european championships with Maguire as our best CB. And I'd also suggest we should do very well this euros and world cup coming.

 

[gerdm07]

He lost his job because of Ronaldo. Then Ronaldo lost his job because of ETH.

 

[devilish]

The current system the simplest system to use. The gap between GK and defender is very small thus defenders doesn't require excessive pace, positioning sense or anticipation skills. They defend in numbers which mean that any mistakes made by midfielders can be cleared by defenders. It relies less on things our team hate like running and it puts the pressure on quick counter of individual brilliance. God knows how much our forward line loves the spotlight on themselves. No wonder why our current squad drag managers to play that system

 

[simonhch]

The most successful clubs have the most consistent style and the lowest turnover of playing staff. Our problem, plain and simple has been a lack of consistency in playing style, leading to haphazard recruitment and massive turnover. This has been exacerbated by hiring consecutive managers with completely contrasting philosophies. See Van Gaal to Mourinho for example. This leads to the biggest waste of resources imaginable.

The INEOS takeover is a potential pathway to reestablishing us as a competitive force because their intention is to set a style of play and then recruit players and managers to adhere to it. Only this way can you build on each successive appointment, even when things don’t work out. We’ve changed playing styles even within the same manager’s tenure. It’s shambolic.

There is no one playing style that is inherently superior, there are only common traits. Whichever style you pick and stick with, you have to become the very best at that approach. If you’re going to be a brilliant counterattacking team, you need to be defensively close to impregnable, and lightning fast on the counter. If you are going to dominate possession, you need to be highly technical. Etc etc. Those are two very different profiles of players and training mantras.

Even with the right signings, it takes a while to become truly elite at any philosophy. You can make strides to become good at it quite quickly, but to become elite takes time. See ETH first season for example or Ange first season. If ETH had decided to play the same way as last season, this season, with Mainoo in for Eriksen; I’d venture we’d be in the top four. But a more expansive style was apparently necessary, and here we are back in the doldrums. This club can’t build any momentum operating like that.

 

[Lash]

That summer and the signings were a simple make or break.

You can't throw that much money around and buy players of that level and still rely on the McFred continuum and then racing away with Rashy on the break.

Yep, it was a nice idea, but Ole was never really interested in controlling possession. My guess was he hoped the likes of Ronaldo and Cavani could teach the young lads all they need to know, Varane will help shore up the defence and Sancho will bring that je ne sais quoi

The age of McFred will haunt us for a while!

 

[Sandikan]

Yep, it was a nice idea, but Ole was never really interested in controlling possession. My guess was he hoped the likes of Ronaldo and Cavani could teach the young lads all they need to know, Varane will help shore up the defence and Sancho will bring that je me said quoi

The age of McFred will haunt us for a while!

That and a whole season seemingly going behind every single game and having to turn it round 2nd half.

 

[led_scholes]

Why does that matter when you're suggesting Maguire cant play in a team competing at the highest level? I'm not a big fan of Southgate his selections or tactics, but the fact is England narrowly lost in the finals of the european championships with Maguire as our best CB. And I'd also suggest we should do very well this euros and world cup coming.

Because I said that Maguire can't play at an attacking team in the highest level. I didn't say he can't play at the highest level at all.

 

[justsomebloke]

Ole was correct. He tried to take the leap to better more front foot football with the squad and it was ultimately his undoing. Because by the end of theprevious season, even though he had lost a european final thanks to De Gea being poor at everything to do with penalties, the fan tied had started to significantly turn against his defend deep and counter use of the players at his disposal. Factor into tha the added a 28 year old Varane, Sancho and CR7. Going for a more proactive style was the only logical next step the fans were going to tolerate.

It can be argued the exact same cycle is happening with ETH. Only that fans have lost patience much faster because they believed ETH to be a far higher calibre of manager than Ole ever was.


Personally I believe in giving a manager who has started as Ole and ETH did 3 years.

The first season always tends to be steadying the ship. Restoring morale and baseline performance with wing as a bonua


The second is usually to see if what is available in the squad with a few additions can take the leap to the style the manager really wants to implement and the board decides to fully commit to it. The year in which bad apples and bad characters for the standards are sifted out.

Then the third being the year when the ideal 11 and squad for that given manager are recruited and set, to implement from day one his ideal footballing phyilosophy and actually mount a serious challenge according to the scale of the club's ambitions. That in my view is the season in which sacking or renewing should be logically done. The season in which if he is sacked, someone better at implementing the exact style he was installing is recruited, since the playing squad is by then completely geared to that footballing direction.

Are we now at the point where we've rewritten recollection to tell ourselves that in Ole's last full season, we were "dropping deep and relying on the countetattack?" Just because he tried to go more aggressive the next season, that's not actually true.

 

[Dominos]

I don't have sympathy for Ole or ETH for one simple reason. If you want to build towards a more progressive style of play, you achieve that gradually and ensure the hundreds of millions spent is spent on players who fit that style of football you're working towards.

Ole's first 2 signings were Wan Bissaka who was really, really bad on the ball for a modern full back, and Maguire who is maybe the slowest moving human playing in the league. Already in his first summer Ole has handcuffed himself to a team who can't really build play from the back, and a team who can't effectively play a high defensive line.

ETH has spent 400 million, many players he hand-picked personally and his team still can't pass a football and are even worse in possession than Ole's teams were.

People can blame the structure of the club for the fact we're not winning league titles. But it's an abject failure of management and coaching on the part Ole/ETH that their teams cannot keep possession of the ball after endless hundreds of millions spent.

 

[wolvored]

May be we should stop blowing our transfer budget on 3 players and look to find players who are more reasonable in price who fit the system we want to play.

Well lets hope with a better back of house team that Ineos are building, these can be scouted and we get 5/6 in for the same money.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Are we now at the point where we've rewritten recollection to tell ourselves that in Ole's last full season, we were "dropping deep and relying on the countetattack?" Just because he tried to go more aggressive the next season, that's not actually true.

What are you on about? How is it 're writting history" that Ole's reign thrived the most playing a deep defensive line whilst being utterly deadly from a mid block transition counter attack getting himself 2 EPL second place finishes and a Europa League Final? A thing his pathetic detractors constanty tried to lie to us "was no style of play' and " tacticless football" ?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yes these mangers should be under pressure to play front foot football but the problem is that we first give full control to hide behind conservative ideas and then they magically expect the team to “make the jump to the next level”.

For example Inreally loved Ole’s interview from an entertainment and human perspective but he was absolutely the wrong man for the job. The improvements he did make to the team were fine albeit from a false / collapse Jose last year point, but he was able to bring genuine excellence in our football. So after managing a respectable couple of league finishes where the football didn’t excel adding players like Maguire, Awb, James, 37 year old Ronaldo, mentally weak Sancho, VDB etc, we were never going to suddenly turn the corner and play beautiful football. You have to let go of your conservatism and lay down the foundations of playing front footy to eventually play front foot footy well.

Same with ETH, we signed a manager famed for playing possession football who for some reason wanted to play transition footy here - and moreover signs limited Casemiro, legs gone Eriksen as his CM, a second 10 who excels at transitions and Antony as his RW.

Of course we are now not capable to pin teams back - we haven’t laid the foundations for it. Not under any of our last three managers.

 

[Lash]

That and a whole season seemingly going behind every single game and having to turn it round 2nd half.

That grew thin extremely quickly and surprised we kept it up that long.