Berbaclass
Fallen Muppet. Lest we never forget
Debut album was good but so is True Blue.
Bite?
Bite?
Stop preachin', papa.Debut album was good but so is True Blue.
Bite?
Exponent of a system?I see Cruyff as the perfect exponent of a particular system. He took the system to the next level, but (not a criticism) that's all he ever did. I see Messi the same way although he took it even further and did it for a lot longer. Once another stat monster comes along I think Messi will quickly slip down these lists, much as players like Cruyff and Platini have done.
Players like Maradona, it didnt matter what the system was. To most fans that's what captures the imagination.
As crazy as that sounds, it's actually true.Was watching the Sheffield United game today when the commentator made an interesting anecdote that Maradona was all but signed for SU when they were in the 2nd division for £400.000 in 1978 but pulled out at the last minute because his agents wanted more money.
I'll bet their board are still having nightmares about that one.
What's crazy is how one decision could of changed a whole generation. Instead of signing Maradona who even at the age of 17 could of easily (probably) given them promotion to the 1st division they signed Alex Sabella and 2 years later they were relegated to the 3rd.As crazy as that sounds, it's actually true.
He could have been part of a "wave" (relatively speaking) of Argentinian players coming to England in the late 70s.
A "what if..." scenario for the books, indeed.
Maradona the player is a better player than Cruijff. But Cruijff is not only looked upon as a brilliant player but also a brilliant coach and someone who gave a lot more to football than just playing. Maradona the coach is terrible.Exponent of a system?
Don't think so - take a look:
That’s a bad argument because non-Europeans weren’t even allowed to win the Ballon d’Or until about 1995.Platini won the Ballon D'or 3 years in a row heading into the 1986 WC so the correct answer is yes he was seen as the better player up to that point.
I started watching football around 2002, so I missed Maradona, Pele, Puskas etc. and also R9's prime years. Watched all the footage I could get of those plqyers, though, if possible even complete games.The debate about the GOAT goes on. The older I've got, more names get thrown into the mix. (I don't just mean players from this generation).
Growing up, it was always Pele or Maradona. It seems an Insult to me if any other player is mentioned in that bracket. Maybe is nostagla, Maybe it's something I don't want to let go of my childhood days. It's like growing up and realising santa was not real afterall.
There have been so many great players and it's very difficult, if not impossible to say one was the greatest of them all. All I can say is, Messi, Ronaldo (both), zidane, Cryuff, Beckenbaur, Pele, Best, Platini, Puskas, Zico were all genius, but there is only one God.
Happy birthday Diego!
I’m in this boat too I’m afraid. As a 70’s child Diego was the first proper football superstar in my eyes. Still think he’s the most naturally gifted footballer ever and can only begin to imagine what he would achieve with the advancement in the modern game.One of these generational conversations isn't it.
Messi could score 1000 goals a season and I'd still vote Maradona as the best ever. Whereas I'm too young to have had the same mystique around Pele
Argentina has created 3 of the top 10 players of all time.Comparisons are always being made between Messi and Maradona, but, i was wondering, how do people feel about putting him up against another historic Argentine, Di Stefano?
Better than both and though his character is/was maybe morally weak and somewhat unhinged, the bravery and strength of character it took to play with that many injections and through so much pain is not the kind of professional test almost anyone on this forum would ever have to endure. So not really a weak character.
You could easily talk about best being a weak character as well.Not as good as both Best and Pele and a very weak character imho.
You maybe could, but Diego beat them all and he could not head a ball like Pele too.You could easily talk about best being a weak character as well.
Well just personally I was too young for Cruyff. I guess with him you could then say what about DeStefano for example. Older the player, less people have seen or remember them.I tend to agree with this but do wonder why Cruyff is never mentioned in these discussions......
Also.....it's a very interesting point you make about the fact that we got so little TV coverage of other leagues back then so that when we did see Maradona we were left longing for the next time we could see him. We see Messi's every match, and he does it ever match - not sure Maradona was as consistent as we didn't get to see his every match.
It's the ones with recency bias who always use that excuse. Simply because they don't understand football used to be played without attacking players being protected from rough housing like they are today. With heavier balls. Fewer substitutes. In an era of 2 points for a win making it far harder to win titles. No to mention the fact there was no freedom of labor movement. A 3 foreigner rule restrictions so assembling super teams to build around a super star or super stars was rare. Even nigh impossible in some cases.Same can be said about nostalgia.
There is no footballer ever born is "far far better" than Messi. No footballer
What is silly rather is people thinking the likes of Messi are some sort of untouchable aliens. They have never been. They can be objectively judged and it can be objectively shown others were much better than they. I never get why people think it's a insult to one footballing great to say another was a far better one. It's not like it takes away the greatness of the great who is the lesser of the twoSomebody rates Maradona better than Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo, cool their opinion, they are entitled.
But this "far far better" is as silly as those using stats to degrade Maradona, when Maradona's stats are excellent for an attacking midfielder from any era.
It’s much easier to dribble like Maradona with a heavier ball than it is the bouncy flyaways they play with today. There’s a reason Futsal balls are heavier.It's the ones with recency bias who always use that excuse. Simply because they don't understand football used to be played without attacking players being protected from rough housing. With heavier balls. Fewer substitutes. In an era of 2 points for a win making it far harder to win titles.
What is silly rather is people thinking the likes of Messi are some sort of untouchable aliens. They have never been. They can be objectively judged and it can be objectively shown others were much better than they.
What's really amazing is that Gerd Müller had those insane career achievements (WC, EC, 3x CL) and stats (even better goal ratio than both Ronaldo and Messi; many assists, too) in an era where defenders could commit murder on the pitch, yet the guys that want to bring up C.Ronaldo in the best ever discussion because of his stats never bring up Müller.It's the ones with recency bias who always use that excuse. Simply because they don't understand football used to be played without attacking players being protected from rough housing like they are today. With heavier balls. Fewer substitutes. In an era of 2 points for a win making it far harder to win titles. No to mention the fact there was no freedom of labor movement. A 3 foreigner rule restrictions so assembling super teams to build around a super star or super stars was rare. Even nigh impossible in some cases.
What is silly rather is people thinking the likes of Messi are some sort of untouchable aliens. They have never been. They can be objectively judged and it can be objectively shown others were much better than they. I never get why people think it's a insult to one footballing great to say another was a far better one. It's not like it takes away the greatness of the great who is the lesser of the two
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Sorry, if you are against people and their exaggeration of Messi, than you should not be responding with exaggeration of Maradona.It's the ones with recency bias who always use that excuse. Simply because they don't understand football used to be played without attacking players being protected from rough housing like they are today. With heavier balls. Fewer substitutes. In an era of 2 points for a win making it far harder to win titles. No to mention the fact there was no freedom of labor movement. A 3 foreigner rule restrictions so assembling super teams to build around a super star or super stars was rare. Even nigh impossible in some cases.
What is silly rather is people thinking the likes of Messi are some sort of untouchable aliens. They have never been. They can be objectively judged and it can be objectively shown others were much better than they. I never get why people think it's a insult to one footballing great to say another was a far better one. It's not like it takes away the greatness of the great who is the lesser of the two
.....
Possibly because unlike Muller, Cristiano has been doing it for nearly 15 years, and still doesn't seem to stop.What's really amazing is that Gerd Müller had those insane career achievements (WC, EC, 3x CL) and stats (even better goal ratio than both Ronaldo and Messi; many assists, too) in an era where defenders could commit murder on the pitch, yet the guys that want to bring up C.Ronaldo in the best ever discussion because of his stats never bring up Müller.
In YOUR opinion. There is no exaggeration on my part at all. Messi has had a minimal impact on international football compared to the likes of Pele, Bekenbauer and Maradona. To me, international football, is what separates the greats from each other because at international level you must achieve with what you have. The advantage of having an entire club and playing structure built just for you is none existent. You have to inspire and lead those you are surrounded with to victory. Unlike the likes of Maradona Messi's has failed at this time and again at senior level. So I'll forever be unapologetic about saying he is inferior to the likes of theSorry, if you are against people and their exaggeration of Messi, than you should not be responding with exaggeration of Maradona.
Sorry but Maradona wasn't far far better than Messi. Nobody is.
I'm simply stating facts. Import rough housing and the tackle from behind into the modern game, plus a heavier ball for example and you have an entirely different and harder game. Yet that is just 3 of the differences in football them and now.Don't use the "oh old players, did it in potato fields and defenders were savages" hence XYZ are better than today's player. It is similar to, "oh older games were so slow and XYZ player today would have ripped them apart".
They're not actually heavier. They just have foam inside instead of air to stop them bouncing, and that makes them feel heavier. They're about 10 grams lighter than a regular ball.It’s much easier to dribble like Maradona with a heavier ball than it is the bouncy flyaways they play with today. There’s a reason Futsal balls are heavier.
He would have either retired early in his career or ironically enough, become a better player. Back then you couldn't just roll around and act like you'd been shot everytime there was contact. Refs and the public would have ignored it and he would have had to change his act and adjust his playing style accordingly.Imagine neymar playing in the maradona era.
Well, Müller did it for 13 seasons(65/66 to 77/78), too.Possibly because unlike Muller, Cristiano has been doing it for nearly 15 years, and still doesn't seem to stop.
Also it has more to do with underrating of Muller, than overrating of Cristiano.
You make excellent points that I agree with until we get to this last bit here.... This guy had at least equally impressive stats as them in an era, where defenders could commit murder on the pitch and where strikers didn't have the luxury of playing in perfectly oiled super-teams like Messi's Barca or Ronaldo's Madrid.
That's true, they won the CL 3 times in a row, too. But the gap between this legendary Bayern team and the rest of Europe or even the lower half of the Bundesliga wasn't as big as it has been for Real/Barca/Bayern and the rest of their leagues in recent years. Talent was much more evenly distributed back then. It wasn't a foregone conclusion that they would hammer half of their league.You make excellent points that I agree with until we get to this last bit here.
Muller played with some absolutely legendary Bayern teams and the likes of Sepp Maier, Uli Hoeness, Breitner and one Franz Beckenbauer. Those teams absolutely deserve to be talked about in the same level as Ronaldo's Madrid.
Yeah, the claim that Messi's and Cristiano's stats are unprecedented is rubbish. There are quite a few players that put up similar numbers. Pele, Müller, Zico, Puskas, di Stefano, Eusebio, Romario, Bican, just to name a few. R9 looked like he could keep up such stats, too, before his injuries although he played in the Serie A which was incredibly hard for goal scorers.Well, Müller did it for 13 seasons(65/66 to 77/78), too.
Those are the club stats (domestic league, domestic cup, CL) for both:
Müller: 576 games, 515 goals (0.90 goals per match), 100 assists (0.17 assists per match)
Ronaldo: 853 games, 643 goals (0.75 goals per match), 222 assists (0.26 assists per match)
Those are their national team stats:
Müller: 62 games, 68 goals (1.10 goals per match), ??? assists (weren't counted for the national team back then)
Ronaldo: 167 games, 101 goals (0.60 goals per match), 40 assists (0.24 assists per match)
It's just amazing to me that stat guys always point at Messi's and Cristiano's stats, when they argue for them to be in the conversation for best of all time, while completely ignoring Müller.
This guy had at least equally impressive stats as them in an era, where defenders could commit murder on the pitch and where strikers didn't have the luxury of playing in perfectly oiled super-teams like Messi's Barca or Ronaldo's Madrid.
The ball's the same weight. It's more responsive now which helps with finishing, but the ball stays on the deck and is far easier to control because the pitches are so perfect. It was a lot harder to dribble and control the ball on 1980s pitches, when even a World Cup in Mexico was dry and bobbly, while most European winter seasons ended up in mudbaths.It’s much easier to dribble like Maradona with a heavier ball than it is the bouncy flyaways they play with today. There’s a reason Futsal balls are heavier.
Spooky timing for the resurrection of this thread
It’s much easier to dribble like Maradona with a heavier ball than it is the bouncy flyaways they play with today. There’s a reason Futsal balls are heavier.