Marcus Rashford (Out) | Ornstein: United want to keep, will only consider substantial bids

Pexbo

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People really going with this conserving energy angle. Was Martial also conserving energy?
I think people might be more accommodating to the whole conserving energy thing if we actually saw the benefits of him then expending it.
 

pablo__p

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The elephant in the room is that he's clearly not been able to develop his game. He's the same player he was 5 years ago. Same strengths, same weaknesses. Nothing has developed. He's neither got noticeably better at attributes he appeared to have a natural gift for when he first broke into it team, nor has he developed in any significant way any other element of his game.

He's the same player.
He deteriorated.
Lost a bit of acceleration. But this aside, his game is so one dimensional that most semi-competent defenders know well what he is going to do.

He's sadly a player who offers (occasionally) some individual brilliance but is not of acceptable quality for any coherent football team which wants to win games and titles by playing better/less haphazard football week in week out.

Sadly, incompetent people in the club put him on the pedestal for this reason or another and whoever is our coach clearly is being influenced by this apparent power that United gave to Rashford.
 

Blood Mage

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He's just not very good anymore. Lost some of his pace and no longer has the stamina to track back and press. I don't think it's an effort thing, he's declined due to injuries like Martial.
 

daba

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Quite insightful given it’s coming from a coach that has worked with him. I agree with what Phelan says here about Rashford stagnating and not pushing himself to develop his game further. Hes far too one dimensional as a wide forward IMO and needed more to his game to really elevate himself into that world-class category.

For example… Why hasn’t he continued his progress as an aerial threat in the box. Why has he never developed his cutting inside curling far post shot that the likes of Saka and Salah are so effective with.

Really feels like he either got complacent or distracted (or both) and never truly pushed himself into that world-class gear for more than the odd purple patch.

Tough one but if we get a tasty offer of say £80m it would be a risk worth taking for me.
 

daba

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The elephant in the room is that he's clearly not been able to develop his game. He's the same player he was 5 years ago. Same strengths, same weaknesses. Nothing has developed. He's neither got noticeably better at attributes he appeared to have a natural gift for when he first broke into it team, nor has he developed in any significant way any other element of his game.

He's the same player.
Couldn’t agree more. See my post above.
 

Blood Mage

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He deteriorated.
Lost a bit of acceleration. But this aside, his game is so one dimensional that most semi-competent defenders know well what he is going to do.

He's sadly a player who offers (occasionally) some individual brilliance but is not of acceptable quality for any coherent football team which wants to win games and titles by playing better/less haphazard football week in week out.

Sadly, incompetent people in the club put him on the pedestal for this reason or another and whoever is our coach clearly is being influenced by this apparent power that United gave to Rashford.
Sorry didn't realise you posted basically the same thing as me. I'm glad someone agrees, he's just undergoing early decline and people are mistaking it for an attitude problem..
 

clarkydaz

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As far as I can see these days there is little to zero upside for any footballer currently to even be on social media. It's a cess pit and probably 99.9% of players would be far better off coming off it altogether.

If it does Rashford good to come off it then I'm all for it. Just can't see that there is any benefit for any elite sportsperson to be on there.
Depends if said player is wrapped up in their public profile and fame. Ive said this before, while city and liverpool have been hoovering up leagues and champions leagues, who are their social media sluts? Weve had Pogba, Lingard and the last remnant of the disneyland era, Rashford
 

dinostar77

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He'd get alot less stick if he would track back, make an effort off the ball, even when hes not playing well. It wasnt too much for Giggs or Beckham to do the less glamourous side of things on the pitch. Even as awful as he is as a player on the ball, Antony will still track back, get into position. Keep shape and do the hard work.
 

matherto

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Sorry didn't realise you posted basically the same thing as me. I'm glad someone agrees, he's just undergoing early decline and people are mistaking it for an attitude problem..
So you're saying the infamous Barkley clip (one of many) is due to decline and not attitude?
 

ayushreddevil9

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I have no idea do you?

But I’d argue that a small % of his underperforming is down to mental health, Luke Shaws absence and adapting to playing with Højlund.
If you dont have any idea then why are you making shit up?
 

Red in STL

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The issue with selling him is this our front line:

Garnacho 19 Højlund 21 Rashford 26

Antony 24 Nobody Amad 21

It needs some PL or top flight experience.
If we sell him we're probably looking to bring in Olise to replace him, irrrespective of his workrate/attitude etc, if we trying to build a possession type team then Rashford doesn't fit that style, he's also useless against teams that play low blocks
 

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If you dont have any idea then why are you making shit up?
Well I’m not making the fact he has struggled with his mental health, has struggled without Shaw and will have had to adapt his game for Højlund.

I just don’t know how much each of those are impacting.
If we sell him we're probably looking to bring in Olise to replace him, irrrespective of his workrate/attitude etc, if we trying to build a possession type team then Rashford doesn't fit that style, he's also useless against teams that play low blocks
Olise has 195 days to worth of absence due to hamstring injuries over the last 2 seasons. Thats equated to 21 games (8 this season, 13 last). He managed 1275 mins this season (37.2% of the PL season). Doesn’t that concern you?
 

AkaAkuma

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Let’s say the Arsenal news is true and he signs for them who replaces him?
Olise seems to be a name consistently linked for the right side, but who would we sign as competition on the left?

(or ETH leaves and Sancho is re-integrated)
 

Born2Lose

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To be fair to Rashford it's probably a good idea to conserve energy if you're planning to go on an all night bender after the game.
 

Red in STL

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Well I’m not making the fact he has struggled with his mental health, has struggled without Shaw and will have had to adapt his game for Højlund.

I just don’t know how much each of those are impacting.

Olise has 195 days to worth of absence due to hamstring injuries over the last 2 seasons. Thats equated to 21 games (8 this season, 13 last). He managed 1275 mins this season (37.2% of the PL season). Doesn’t that concern you?
I'm not one who thinks we should buy Olise but a lot of folks do, there's no point in buying him if Rashford is still there
 

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I'm not one who thinks we should buy Olise but a lot of folks do, there's no point in buying him if Rashford is still there
Even if Rashford were sold (I don’t think he will be) who then comes in to replace him?

Garnacho may eventually develop into what we want but usually it takes 21/22 years old to mature your game to impact more and more unless you’re an absolute freak in the PL.
 

VP89

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If we sell him we're probably looking to bring in Olise to replace him, irrrespective of his workrate/attitude etc, if we trying to build a possession type team then Rashford doesn't fit that style, he's also useless against teams that play low blocks
We are looking at Olise already. If Rashford leaves wel replace him with another forward or striker.
 

NoLogo

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He'd get alot less stick if he would track back, make an effort off the ball, even when hes not playing well. It wasnt too much for Giggs or Beckham to do the less glamourous side of things on the pitch. Even as awful as he is as a player on the ball, Antony will still track back, get into position. Keep shape and do the hard work.
I agree, it would help his case if he would appear to put in some effort and not look like having to play football is an inconvenience to him.
 

JaffyJoe

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Another player the club has failed really, at this point he should leave, fans can't stand him and his application is horrid.
 

JaffyJoe

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How did the club fail him?
There is a clear correlation of players coming here and not fulfilling their potential. Who is the last player who left this club with their reputation and standing bigger than when they arrived?

A combination of playing him injured which has taken away from his ability, not developing him well enough (Think he should have been a 9), different managers, different styles. Circus at the club. He is not devoid of blame because a player of his talent should be doing better but this is the story of everyone who has come here in the last few years. Its a bad environment for players.
 

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There is a clear correlation of players coming here and not fulfilling their potential. Who is the last player who left this club with their reputation and standing bigger than when they arrived?
That's irrelevant but to answer your question, not many. I also don't think many players should be leaving this club when their reputation and standing has grown as we should look to keep them so it's fairly moot.

I assume you are talking about the commercially focused environment we have forcing players to lose concentration on the football, the player still has a choice. He has failed the club far more than we have failed him in my opinion.
 

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There is a clear correlation of players coming here and not fulfilling their potential. Who is the last player who left this club with their reputation and standing bigger than when they arrived?

A combination of playing him injured which has taken away from his ability, not developing him well enough (Think he should have been a 9), different managers, different styles. Circus at the club. He is not devoid of blame because a player of his talent should be doing better but this is the story of everyone who has come here in the last few years. Its a bad environment for players.
a 9 who won’t tackle, press or head the ball? The invisible 9. We’ve tried him there too occasionally and he’s terrible
 

JaffyJoe

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That's irrelevant but to answer your question, not many. I also don't think many players should be leaving this club when their reputation and standing has grown as we should look to keep them so it's fairly moot.

I assume you are talking about the commercially focused environment we have forcing players to lose concentration on the football, the player still has a choice. He has failed the club far more than we have failed him in my opinion.
How's that irrelevant? My point is that acting like this is all on Rashford and the environment he is doesn't play a part wouldn't be fair, the proof is there.

Not just that, the whole setup, it is well documented to be amateurish, beneath the standards of a club of this size, also allows for player power. It is all conducive to players not fairing well here, it does not absolve them of any blame but it paints a full picture. My takeaway is he comes up at any other top 6 club he ends up a better player than he is now. He was really good for England up until recently. No excuses at all for how bad he has been, last year he scored 30 all comps and has had a couple other 20 plus seasons for us, there is clearly a player there os the fcat we havent got that more regularly is damning on us too as well as him.
 

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a 9 who won’t tackle, press or head the ball? The invisible 9. We’ve tried him there too occasionally and he’s terrible
I mean he is the player he is now, when I talk development I meant more in his younger years.
 

AngeloHenriquez

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How's that irrelevant? My point is that acting like this is all on Rashford and the environment he is doesn't play a part wouldn't be fair, the proof is there.

Not just that, the whole setup, it is well documented to be amateurish, beneath the standards of a club of this size, also allows for player power. It is all conducive to players not fairing well here, it does not absolve them of any blame but it paints a full picture. My takeaway is he comes up at any other top 6 club he ends up a better player than he is now. He was really good for England up until recently. No excuses at all for how bad he has been, last year he scored 30 all comps and has had a couple other 20 plus seasons for us, there is clearly a player there os the fcat we havent got that more regularly is damning on us too as well as him.
For me it's irrelevant to say what other players have/ haven't done as a bearing on what happened to Marcus as if there is one case then it suggests it's possible, for which there will be one. I agree the club could have done more and done better 100%, perhaps it was the initial wording I took issue with, we promoted him paid him 300k a week and gave him superstar status and typically he pays that back with lack of work, going out clubbing and appearing quite unprofessional at points which is why I think he has failed the club.

We definitely could have done more for him as we also seem to bow to his notoriety and seemingly can't drop him or criticise him due to the size of his brand and the power of the PR around him, I'm not even referring to how bad he has been but I just want to see more from the person. Let me float a scenario: He has the same season this year in terms of output but he is the consumate professional, regularly states he is working harder and the manager attests he is in earlier, stays later and on the field we see a man giving everything with his defensive work, willingness to pass (Not always the cut in shoot) and contesting for every ball: That's a player I am fully behind and will support so for me I wouldn't look at it as he didn't score enough, he's failed us, I look at it as his effort/ professionalism and desire can be questioned very easily with the optics test and that's a foundational thing to make sure you have, it should be a pre-requisite, like us paying his salary or giving him somewhere to train.

To simplify it as I have a tendancy to waffle:

Player requirements
Level 1: Give everything and be professional but awful output
Level 2: Not professional or giving everything but have a great output
Level 3: Give everything, be professional, great output

Club requirements
Level 1: Pay Salary
Level 2: Give Coaching, tactics, ample opportunity
Level 3: Top quality environment, top quality coaches and superb tactical advise with discipline in the hard times

My feeling is we as a club are giving him level 1 & 2, he isn't giving level 1 so I had the wording of "We failed him", we could have done better for him but I think he's failed us..
 

clarkydaz

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How's that irrelevant? My point is that acting like this is all on Rashford and the environment he is doesn't play a part wouldn't be fair, the proof is there.

Not just that, the whole setup, it is well documented to be amateurish, beneath the standards of a club of this size, also allows for player power. It is all conducive to players not fairing well here, it does not absolve them of any blame but it paints a full picture. My takeaway is he comes up at any other top 6 club he ends up a better player than he is now. He was really good for England up until recently. No excuses at all for how bad he has been, last year he scored 30 all comps and has had a couple other 20 plus seasons for us, there is clearly a player there os the fcat we havent got that more regularly is damning on us too as well as him.
The never ending list of excuses. its like his best ever season wasnt last year, not 5 years ago. Whats changed? The ball isnt flying in the net for him now so turned into a 15 year old girl trying to deal with it
 

ZainCRse7en

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With Arsenal signing Sesko, surely that puts to bed the whole idea of them taking Marcus off our books? Who else would be interested and could afford him then? PSG, we are calling for you.
 

JaffyJoe

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For me it's irrelevant to say what other players have/ haven't done as a bearing on what happened to Marcus as if there is one case then it suggests it's possible, for which there will be one. I agree the club could have done more and done better 100%, perhaps it was the initial wording I took issue with, we promoted him paid him 300k a week and gave him superstar status and typically he pays that back with lack of work, going out clubbing and appearing quite unprofessional at points which is why I think he has failed the club.

We definitely could have done more for him as we also seem to bow to his notoriety and seemingly can't drop him or criticise him due to the size of his brand and the power of the PR around him, I'm not even referring to how bad he has been but I just want to see more from the person. Let me float a scenario: He has the same season this year in terms of output but he is the consumate professional, regularly states he is working harder and the manager attests he is in earlier, stays later and on the field we see a man giving everything with his defensive work, willingness to pass (Not always the cut in shoot) and contesting for every ball: That's a player I am fully behind and will support so for me I wouldn't look at it as he didn't score enough, he's failed us, I look at it as his effort/ professionalism and desire can be questioned very easily with the optics test and that's a foundational thing to make sure you have, it should be a pre-requisite, like us paying his salary or giving him somewhere to train.

To simplify it as I have a tendancy to waffle:

Player requirements
Level 1: Give everything and be professional but awful output
Level 2: Not professional or giving everything but have a great output
Level 3: Give everything, be professional, great output

Club requirements
Level 1: Pay Salary
Level 2: Give Coaching, tactics, ample opportunity
Level 3: Top quality environment, top quality coaches and superb tactical advise with discipline in the hard times

My feeling is we as a club are giving him level 1 & 2, he isn't giving level 1 so I had the wording of "We failed him", we could have done better for him but I think he's failed us..
You make some valid points which I will try and address, apologies if I don't catch them all. I don't think a pattern is irrelevant, because it speaks to a bigger issue than it simply being Rashford, it has happened so often that I believe more of the onus ( this will include the things we don't see) is on the club. What I mean is that the talented players who have failed here I am confident that you put them at other top 6 clubs and their careers don't turn out the way they did here: Martial, Pogba, Di Maria, Sancho etc I wouldn't even necessarily include Marcus in that group: he is 26, has over 130 goals for the club, has won trophies and is one year removed from a 30 goal season.

He has played injured for managers which has probably been to his own detriment so to simply say he doesn't care would be misguided. Instead I would ask what about the environment he is in leads a player who loves the club, came through the academy to have a season like he has had (in fact I'd say 2 of the last 3 seasons fit this bill) this idea (not saying that is what you're saying) that because they are paid loads they should and will automatically perform has been proven time and time again to be untrue. it's all about environment and the platform (not just getting on the pitch) a player is given. I don't think application is a given if an individual is unhappy, unsettled etc. The fact he is paid millions won't change that.

I 100% agree he needs to apply himself more, the player I watch now has lost the one on one ability to beat players, isn't as quick (guys who start in their teen years tend to decline speed wise by mid 20's so not trying to read too much into this) and has lost that habit he had last season of switching things up by going inside and outside. He has obviously suffered from not playing with Shaw or even a Malacia but that application has not been there, are we saying we think it will never return? I think at this point the fanbase doesn't care, I would say his 30 goal season wasn't celebrated while his 8 goal season is vilified. I think there is nothing he can do anymore to endear himself to the fanbase and it's best for all involved that he moves on but i feel he will go on and do well elsewhere and a player with his quality is worth 100 million on the market and where we have such a lack of attacking talent I am remiss to lose him.

Agree on a high level with your requirements I would say the club are at level 1 and I would say Rash is at whatever level is below one. Both things can change.
 

JaffyJoe

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The never ending list of excuses. its like his best ever season wasnt last year, not 5 years ago. Whats changed? The ball isnt flying in the net for him now so turned into a 15 year old girl trying to deal with it
I don't know what has changed, that is my point. The shirt at Manchester United is heavy and even moreso when we aren't doing well, it's not an environment conducive to success. Why are players just expected to "rise above it" he has nor covered himself in any glory this season and think he should be sold, but our fans really struggle to acknowledge this.

Everyone immediately goes to the worst but my actual issue is we pick and choose who we do that for as fans. If it's a player you like, you will find every reason to explain and will talk about being patient because we have seen what they can do etc. and when it is a player we don't like it's "Get rid, never rated him etc." That is fine we all have our conscious and unconscious biases. What I still struggle to understand is when the fanbase decided they didn't like him.
 

jeff gurr

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Really feels like he either got complacent or distracted (or both) and never truly pushed himself into that world-class gear for more than the odd purple patch.

Tough one but if we get a tasty offer of say £80m it would be a risk worth taking for me.
At the present moment no club other than the Saudis are going to pay 80m for Rashford. He has not been good enough to earn a place on a top team this season and teams are not going to pay 80 based on last season. I do feel that a move to a different club might give him the kick start he so obviously needs