Mason Greenwood | Please be respectful and stay on topic

[BenitoSTARR]

Thanks for the replies

I view it as a pointless question.

He could be, he could not be. Why would I think my opinion mattered in the grand scheme of things?

He's a Manchester United player loaned to Getafe. I limit my concern over him to strictly sporting affairs, and related financial concerns the club may have.

I think I’m trying to establish if there is anyone who is happy to have him back that has doubts over his innocence or equally are there those who don’t want him back who doubt their convictions in the absence of an actual one?

I’m more intrigued by the mindset of those on both sides as to what some of the distinguishing differences are when we discuss the topic centred more around how a person is feeling about the issue as opposed to what the person believes to be fact.

I appreciate that if you are looking at this case in black and white terms then what has been made public and the possible connotations of th

Obviously no-one can wholeheartedly believe in his innocence who doesn’t have access to all of the facts.
There’s still simply too much we don’t know to wholeheartedly believe anything, despite how so many are convinced they can call him a “r****t” on these boards, something he wasn’t even charged with.

And so is that grey area of doubt something you believe we should endorse by allowing him to return?

In the absence of full belief of innocence do we default to not guilty of anything despite public evidence suggesting something to the contrary?

Again I know the answer from a legal point of view I’m more interested in peoples personal beliefs on this.

There'd be a very easy solution if it was a big mix up. His wife could just come out and release a statement saying that it's not what it looked like, doesn't even need to give any information if she wants to keep it private. But literally a 1 sentence thing would pretty much make it all go away. The fact that she never did this but is with him 100% points to it being real what happened, but she just "forgave him".

1 sentence and they wouldn't have had to move away, he wouldn't have gone 1.5 years banned from football, he wouldn't be hated worldwide. That's the father of his child and husband (I think they got married?). Anyone who thinks it didn't happen just needs to ask, why didn't she then come out and release any comment to just close the book on this?

So your belief would be he did something and you’d believe this based on the absence of public clarification from his partner?

You are asking the wrong questions. Innocent of what? Innocent of rape or battering...Yes...and it is very very probable. Given the nature of how the clips were released...initial statements from the father and the outcome of investigations from the police and club.... it's most likely that none of that serious stuff we think happened, actually happened. love and jealousy can make people do crazy things. Hell hath no fury like a person scorned

I’m asking the right questions for the insight I’m seeking into peoples views.

It may not be a question some people want to answer and that’s ok. But I am interested in both sides beliefs of his innocence.

I will take from your response then that you don’t doubt Greenwood is innocent?

What about how the clips were released makes you think he’s innocent?

This is a fair question, and my honest answer is that I don't know what to believe.

On the one hand, the evidence looks damning. However, it lacks context, and I can't image her family (let alone her father) standing behind him if he were abusing their daughter. I think it's possible they abused each other and didn't want to admit it, but it's all speculation at this point.

And so I suppose the follow up is in the absence of certainty would you be happy for the club to be potentially endorsing a player who did those things?

 

[Red00012]

Thanks for posting this, it’s good to see that he still has barely any end product or vision and that we’re not missing anything.

Not seen much of United have ya

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

And so is that grey area of doubt something you believe we should endorse by allowing him to return?

In the absence of full belief of innocence do we default to not guilty of anything despite public evidence suggesting something to the contrary?

I’m not a fan of the general public deciding a person’s fate or future based on incomplete information, feels like a slippy slope. We have a judicial system for a reason, whether some like it or not.

I think due to the British media especially, that he and his family will be much better off carving a life out in Spain, rather than United bringing him back here.

 

[sizzling sausages]

Embarrassing

I find it really strange in such a thread that its that post you think is embarrassing. Look at the idiot below.

Can we please win a moral team premier league title to justify our existence, if we’re going to ignore the football?

I’d take a few fair play trophies. Maybe create a new pat on the back award. We’d be a shoo in for our noble duty of assuming people are victims when they say they aren’t, and for progressing the influence of the court of public opinion over the legal system.

This post is far more deserving of being called embarrassing.

 

[Pogba's Barber]

Is it just me or does he seem a bit more left footed since his return?

I remember it used to be hard to say which was his stronger foot, but now it's quite clear he's much more comfortable on his left, and doesn't look as strong or confident with his right. Will be interesting to see if his two-footed skills recover fully with time.

 

[Pes6Monster]

We have a judicial system for a reason, whether some like it or not.

The judicial system failed to establish Greenwood's innocence.

Perhaps the CPS ought to have hired Richard Arnold PI? He established innocence somehow, then removed MG because 'reasons'.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The judicial system failed to establish Greenwood's innocence.

That’s not how the system works as you well know.

 

[Eli Zee]

Swing and a miss.

Nice discussion!

 

[pratyush_utd]

The judicial system failed to establish Greenwood's innocence.

Perhaps the CPS ought to have hired Richard Arnold PI? He established innocence somehow, then removed MG because 'reasons'.

Its the other way around with justice system.
Greenwood said some awful stuff in a short audio. There is absolutely no context and nobody has any clue of what happened before or after. To destroy a young man’s career on 2 min audio clip is not correct in my opinion but thats what you get in this internet age. We dont even allow any way back to 19-20 year old, just to feel good about ourselves that we fought the good fight.

Fact is Greenwood and his girlfriend are together now and look happy by all accounts. Its only bunch of people on internet who are still outraged by that incident. All relevant people from that incident have already moved on.

 

[RuudTom83]

Best thing for everyone involved would be for Mason to get a permanent move to one of the bigger clubs in Spain.

Then we can all close this chapter and move on.

 

[dutchred]

Is it just me or does he seem a bit more left footed since his return?

I remember it used to be hard to say which was his stronger foot, but now it's quite clear he's much more comfortable on his left, and doesn't look as strong or confident with his right. Will be interesting to see if his two-footed skills recover fully with time.

Last week he had a penalty and took it with his right foot

 

[SalfordRed18]

Nice discussion!

For discussions sake, I'm not even necessarily opposed to him coming back.

However, respectfully, donating to charity every time he scores/assists is not the good idea you think it is, to the point where its not even worth discussion.

 

[MackRobinson]

And so I suppose the follow up is in the absence of certainty would you be happy for the club to be potentially endorsing a player who did those things?

"Happy" is an odd word to use, but I would be too bothered, just as I am not too bothered if the club doesn't endorse him. However, if the family of the victim has reconciled with Greenwood and endorses him, that pretty much removes any issues on my end.

For those who have experienced or have a visceral reaction towards any diminishing of the severity of domestic abuse, I think it's fine to think my position is weak or lacks a moral compass. It's opinion based on experience, and there is nothing I can do to change that.

 

[JagUTD]

the fact he’s on 75k a week helps, if he was a random bloke working a standard job they would’ve kicked him to the curb months ago.

money makes people make stupid choices.

You know that's quite insulting towards her don't you?

 

[Suedesi]

Great talent, but he's a POS of a human. I wish we could sell him and close this thread once and for all.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

He is starting attacks from deep which shows how good he is. We all know he can finish. He had some poor moments at the byline but it happens. If a player could make the right decision every time they got to the byline Aaron Lennon would have been better than Giggs.

He is not a one dimensional player. Can use both feet. He can dribble and is fast. Sky is the limit and it was so easy to tell he was destined for stardom.

 

[RedRonaldo]

@flameinthesun

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Just putting it here in case anyone missed @Dr. Dwayne 's post.

This isn't even every touch of his. 18 months out and already destroying one of the best teams in the league. So much so, he had Griezmann raving about him. Skinning player after player, passing with both feet, crossing the ball, creating chances for teammates and himself through individual skill, turning in his own half with multiple people on him instead of passing it back to the goalkeeper. Other performances where he scored, you could tell his general play was still lacking because he was still adjusting to a new team, a new country, and regaining his match sharpness and physicality back. This was the opposite.

That’s really top class performance, easily better than any of our attackers ever managed this season.

If he keeps on that, the likes of Real and Barca would be come knocking his door soon.

 

[RedRonaldo]

The judicial system failed to establish Greenwood's innocence.

Perhaps the CPS ought to have hired Richard Arnold PI? He established innocence somehow, then removed MG because 'reasons'.

Err.. don’t think that’s how judicial system works in any civilized world.

 

[Jippy]

Its the other way around with justice system.
Greenwood said some awful stuff in a short audio. There is absolutely no context and nobody has any clue of what happened before or after. To destroy a young man’s career on 2 min audio clip is not correct in my opinion but thats what you get in this internet age. We dont even allow any way back to 19-20 year old, just to feel good about ourselves that we fought the good fight.

Fact is Greenwood and his girlfriend are together now and look happy by all accounts. Its only bunch of people on internet who are still outraged by that incident. All relevant people from that incident have already moved on.

Regardless of whether you think he should or shouldn't be able to play for United again, this is just arguing in bad faith. A lot of people who think he shouldn't play for the club again are clearly pretty gutted to be losing such a world class talent, no-one is celebrating or 'feeling good' about it. The rest is just downplaying domestic violence, denigrating the belief that it should have consequences, even if the law can't act in this case, as having 'fought the good fight'.
It's not just a 'bunch of people on the internet' either, I'm sure his partner and family weren't thrilled about it, even if they have tried to move on, and his club, its management, sponsors and at least a chunk of his colleagues, let alone swathes of the fanbase are still appalled by the episode. Who knows whether there's a way back for him, but to dismiss any opposition to that as a handful of vocal keyboard warriors is obviously a facile argument.

 

[SecondFig]

Great talent, but he's a POS of a human. I wish we could sell him and close this thread once and for all.

Totally agree - he's obviously still a very talented player, but I don't care. What he did was unforgivable in my view, and he should have no future at United - regardless of whether he ends up top scorer in La Liga or not.

 

[Marcus]

A two-footed right winger. Sigh.

 

[Remember the geese]

Best thing for everyone involved would be for Mason to get a permanent move to one of the bigger clubs in Spain.

Then we can all close this chapter and move on.

That wouldn't be the best thing for us.

 

[united for life]

Griezmann after Atletico’s game against Getafe: “mason was really causing us problems in the second half, we couldn’t stop him and it cost us the game”.

haven’t heard anyone complain about Antony except Unites fans.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

It’s always been interesting where people draw the line with moral objections with footballers. Luis Suarez was a blatant racist publicly but is adored as a legend of the game. One of the most legendary players in our club was a complete shitbag in Giggs but no one ever seems to care much. Greenwood did some bad shit with his gf that they chose to keep between themselves and are now assumed happy together with a child, but a large majority of our fanbase reviles him and never wants him around the club again.

 

[Wibble]

Great talent, but he's a POS of a human. I wish we could sell him and close this thread once and for all.

Pretty much sums it up.

 

[redNATION]

Griezmann after Atletico’s game against Getafe: “mason was really causing us problems in the second half, we couldn’t stop him and it cost us the game”.

haven’t heard anyone complain about Antony except Unites fans.

Someone complained when he did that fidget spinner thing, though I’m not sure it was because it bamboozled defenders.

 

[bosnian_red]

It’s always been interesting where people draw the line with moral objections with footballers. Luis Suarez was a blatant racist publicly but is adored as a legend of the game. One of the most legendary players in our club was a complete shitbag in Giggs but no one ever seems to care much. Greenwood did some bad shit with his gf that they chose to keep between themselves and are now assumed happy together with a child, but a large majority of our fanbase reviles him and never wants him around the club again.

Giggs would be talked about every single day if he wasn't a cnut of a human. The fact that he never got inducted into the premier league hall of fame despite being Mr Premier League for his whole career says it all. He went from being arguably our biggest ever legend to someone we don't want to be associated with at all. Beckham leaving him out of his documentary. Him never being on any of the talk shows despite literally everyone else getting constant airtime. Not true at all saying nobody cares much, as actually one of our best ever players is basically blacklisted from doing anything in football or ever being brought up in any conversations.

Suarez had the incident which while it wasn't good, doesn't mean he is a racist, especially as Cavani had his thing in a different context. They just use that word over there. It was dumb more than anything. Doesn't mean he is a scum human just because he said 1 thing which is very offensive in our culture but not in his.

Rape and domestic violence, yeah those are going to get a lot more criticism and hate. Especially when the audio of the actual incident is leaked along with images. It's hard for people to forget that or sweep it under the rug.

 

[vanrooney]

I wonder why United should have a totally different approach to moral than any other pl side. Just concentrate on the football side and let him play. If we talk about moral giggs shouldn’t have played a game for us after cheating on his brother or punching women. Not the same of course but also not very nice

 

[Remember the geese]

I find it really strange in such a thread that its that post you think is embarrassing. Look at the idiot below.

This post is far more deserving of being called embarrassing.

I disagree. Obviously the post you have quoted is massively exaggerated for effect, but the post I quoted is dripping with bitterness and really quite immature. This is because that particular poster clearly doesn't like Mason Greenwood and cannot separate that from judging his performances.

 

[Insanity]

Even though you've ignored my points directly addressing your calls for "redemption", I will say it's also total and utter nonsense to think that blaming the public rather than the people involved and the club itself is the correct path.

It's even more nonsense to suggest he can just come back with that damning evidence out there and that anyone who saw those pictures and heard that audio are somehow in the wrong for having a reaction to them.

But here we are in this situation. Rightly or wrongly, there's simply no winners here and we have to accept that. There is no plausible explanation that absolves all parties, no "oh look it's actually all ok!" moment. Serious allegations were made, serious evidence released and either way someone or all involved are badly in the wrong. That's the basics of it, and to expect people just to be able to walk away from this like nothing has happened is incredibly (this one's for you @Regulus Arcturus Black ) myopic.

I think everyone shares the blame, the mob for passing a judgement without being privy to the full evidence and the club for succumbing to that pressure instead of believing their own investigation.

However, what I meant by my initial post was, that even if mistakes were made, the guy has paid penance by being banished from game for an extended period while the investigations were being carried out. He was suspended on suspicions and kept out of the game even though the alleged victim asked the police to drop the investigation a couple of months after those pics and audio came out. Since then they have made up and had a child together in mid July this year. Which to me suggests that they have been together a while and much after the whole kerfuffle.

Now it seems the "victim" has moved on and even had a child with him. Her parents initial statements suggested that they were surprised by the whole thing as they held Greenwood in high regard. The police has no case against him and dropped the investigation after "new evidence came to light"...but somehow that is not enough. The girl must have Stockholm syndrome, the father/family is a money grabber, the police...well they are useless anyway, because the mob has decided he needs to punished, so he needs to be punished. They won't give him a chance. Nope.

 

[Strelok]

I think everyone shares the blame, the mob for passing a judgement without being privy to the full evidence and the club for succumbing to that pressure instead of believing their own investigation.

However, what I meant by my initial post was, that even if mistakes were made, the guy has paid penance by being banished from game for an extended period while the investigations were being carried out. He was suspended on suspicions and kept out of the game even though the alleged victim asked the police to drop the investigation a couple of months after those pics and audio came out. Since then they have made up and had a child together in mid July this year. Which to me suggests that they have been together a while and much after the whole kerfuffle.

Now it seems the "victim" has moved on and even had a child with him. Her parents initial statements suggested that they were surprised by the whole thing as they held Greenwood in high regard. The police has no case against him and dropped the investigation after "new evidence came to light"...but somehow that is not enough. The girl must have Stockholm syndrome, the father/family is a money grabber, the police...well they are useless anyway, because the mob has decided he needs to punished, so he needs to be punished. They won't give him a chance. Nope.

Totally agree. That's a very fair assesment of the whole situation.

The bold part does remind me of the Danish movie 'The Hunt'. Which imo resembles a lot of this situation. An angry mob refuses to give the accused any chance. Even if the police closed the case, drop the charges and all the know facts and logic pointing toward the accused is actually innocent.

Edit: fantastic movie and Mads Mikkelsen was excellent btw.

 

[Stack]

It’s always been interesting where people draw the line with moral objections with footballers. Luis Suarez was a blatant racist publicly but is adored as a legend of the game. One of the most legendary players in our club was a complete shitbag in Giggs but no one ever seems to care much. Greenwood did some bad shit with his gf that they chose to keep between themselves and are now assumed happy together with a child, but a large majority of our fanbase reviles him and never wants him around the club again.

Bad faith arguments.
The vast majority in here think Suarez is scum, A decent number of fans lost a huge amount of respect for Giggs.

 

[DiMaria]

It’s always been interesting where people draw the line with moral objections with footballers. Luis Suarez was a blatant racist publicly but is adored as a legend of the game. One of the most legendary players in our club was a complete shitbag in Giggs but no one ever seems to care much. Greenwood did some bad shit with his gf that they chose to keep between themselves and are now assumed happy together with a child, but a large majority of our fanbase reviles him and never wants him around the club again.

Err.. don’t think that’s how judicial system works in any civilized world.

I agree. At some point we really need to draw the line between who did what in their personal lives (assuming they are cleared legally) and between who has the proper work ethic and talent to contribute to our club. I’m pretty sure if Fergie was concerned with what is morally right, Giggs would have never played for us again. Would that have been better for the club? Fast forward to now and Giggs is regarded as one of the best in epl history. There are plenty more examples. Suarez, terry, ronaldo, benzema are just a few off the top of my head. All brilliant footballers who were accused of pretty awful things. Yet here we are wanting to change “innocent until proven guilty” to “guilty until proven innocent” all for a teenager (back then) in Mason Greenwood. If we are going to set the precedent to convict players on social media, then good luck fielding a proper 11 in a few years time.

This being said, just like nobody really knows what exactly happened apart from him and her, they are also the two who know what’s best for them and their newly born. Perhaps they now have a strong preference to stay in Spain and escape all the commotion. Who would blame them. But we would be utter fools if as a club we don’t at least try to bring him back.

 

[Thiagoal]

I can’t believe anyone could have watched Mason play the other day and be critical of him having watched our wingers absolutely produce nothing for half a season. Moaning that he made the wrong choice of pass a couple of times when Antony and Garnacho have barely beaten their fullback and provided an opportunity for our striker in half a season.

Thanks for posting this, it’s good to see that he still has barely any end product or vision and that we’re not missing anything.

His performance the other night was way better than any of our attackers have produced all season. If you’d actually watched the game you’d have seen a 20 year old kid with the world at his feet and Atletico Madrid ( one of Europe’s top teams) petrified every time he was on the ball.

 

[MancunianAngels]

I agree. At some point we really need to draw the line between who did what in their personal lives (assuming they are cleared legally) and between who has the proper work ethic and talent to contribute to our club. I’m pretty sure if Fergie was concerned with what is morally right, Giggs would have never played for us again. Would that have been better for the club? Fast forward to now and Giggs is regarded as one of the best in epl history. There are plenty more examples. Suarez, terry, ronaldo, benzema are just a few off the top of my head. All brilliant footballers who were accused of pretty awful things. Yet here we are wanting to change “innocent until proven guilty” to “guilty until proven innocent” all for a teenager (back then) in Mason Greenwood. If we are going to set the precedent to convict players on social media, then good luck fielding a proper 11 in a few years time.

This being said, just like nobody really knows what exactly happened apart from him and her, they are also the two who know what’s best for them and their newly born. Perhaps they now have a strong preference to stay in Spain and escape all the commotion. Who would blame them. But we would be utter fools if as a club we don’t at least try to bring him back.

Few things here.

Giggs had never done anything (or at least been accused of) illegal until long after he retired.

Regarding Suarez, 99% of Liverpool fans wanted him back after the racism and biting. Clearly a difference given the split in United fans over Greenwood.

We all saw those images. We have yet to hear an alternative explanation for them. A point I keep making on here is that even if United were sure of innocence, there was clearly something else that made them hesitate for so long. What that was, we'll never know.

Why should he just walk into the team? Why should he represent Manchester United? We're not talking slightly risqué social media posts here. We're talking domestic violence, a crime that is very rarely punished correctly. A crime where the victims usually go back to their abuser because they have such an almighty psychological hold over them.
Other posters have perhaps insinuated that those original posts were staged or perhaps some kind of role play gone wrong. How do we know that the "happy family" posts are also heavily edited to portray something that is far more positive than it actually is.

 

[Pes6Monster]

Its the other way around with justice system.

No, it isn't.

Err.. don’t think that’s how judicial system works in any civilized world.

Well, if you're unsure, have a think before projecting.

That’s not how the system works as you well know.

I didn't say that's how the 'system works', as you well know.

It's rather the people on here demanding we take him back are reliant on the CPS decision.

Until real innocence can be established, which it still hasn't despite the reconciliation, there is no moral or even footballing reason why such a person should represent us again.

It really is time to move on post-Greenwood, having established a precedent for our player's behaviour.

 

[Strelok]

Until real innocence can be established

What is real innocence?

 

[golden_blunder]

so what, Rayo on the 2nd and then Wigan on the 8th?

He won’t be recalled in January, and SJR won’t be here in time to take an alternative decision. Stop torturing yourselves

 

[golden_blunder]

Do you remember when Fergie wanted to send Morrison to London (think it was West Ham) because he needed to get out of Manchester to try and break his cycle?

 

[golden_blunder]

Its the other way around with justice system.
Greenwood said some awful stuff in a short audio. There is absolutely no context and nobody has any clue of what happened before or after. To destroy a young man’s career on 2 min audio clip is not correct in my opinion but thats what you get in this internet age. We dont even allow any way back to 19-20 year old, just to feel good about ourselves that we fought the good fight.

Fact is Greenwood and his girlfriend are together now and look happy by all accounts. Its only bunch of people on internet who are still outraged by that incident. All relevant people from that incident have already moved on.

The fans didn’t destroy his career based on a “2 min audio clip”. He destroyed his own career if his girlfriend decided that she had to record what was happening (would suggest it wasn’t the first time) and publish it on social media for all to see Mason greenwood warts and all.
don’t try and pass the blame off to others