He was quite effective when he had the ball. The trouble for Getafe is they seemed to be more interested in building their attacks down the left flank and only occasionally sent the ball to Greenwood on the right, usually after they ran out of ideas on the left.
Mason Greenwood | Please be respectful and stay on topic
- Thread starter keithsingleton
- Start date
I have seen some of the evidence and it’s damning, but clearly not damning enough to put him away which leads me to think I haven’t seen the full picture.
Honestly I have no idea. My best guess would be yeah the investigation cleared him in the clubs eyes but they are mostly scared about the public backlash and reaction by sponsors. Ultimately though that’s just speculation and none of us know.
The club doesn't care. He's an asset they want to salvage. This loan spell is meant to recover some of his lost value. Whether he's guilty or not is irrelevant to the club.
Which is why I asked, on the balance of probabilities, with the evidence to hand, do you believe him to be liable of a threat to sexually assault the victim. Something which she reported and later rescinded. Or do you believe him innocent? Or are you exactly 50/50, i.e. you don't know?
Not asking if you want him back, just want to know what you believe
Then why would so many posters defer their opinion on whether they should support Greenwood playing for the team if that was true?
I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse, but someone saying "I don't want to have to have sex with you" and their response being "I don't care" is pretty fecking damning in itself. That's without the rest of the bile he spews.
Why is that proof he's not guilty, but the actual audio is debatable? The parents could have all sorts of reasons and how can you be certain they're good intentions? - to use your own argument against you.
Again, I don't know, but why are you certain the motives are pure? Why did the alleged victim not chose to participate in the investigation? Why do I have to explain the rationale behind these statements, but you get to hide behind not knowing the context of the audio and pictures?
Of course trial by social media can happen, I don't doubt that, it's the age we live in. Let's not pretend like he has had no chance to specifically address any of the claims, he's just put out a carefully crafted statement that admits to no blame whatsoever and addresses nothing. If you leave a vacuum, people are going to fill the space, that's on him.
I genuinely don't know how you can listen to the audio and not be horrified, but that's clearly where we differ quite substantially. Again, why do we need to explain the rationale behind the statements when we haven't even got passed the first point of the audio and pictures? They don't just make them go away, they need to be answered first. If I had a son and he was recorded saying that, I would not expect anyone to have any sympathy for me as a parent. The alleged victim is his partner, unless you're implying Mason is the victim?
My point is you're trying to put people in a neat box who can only process things in a certain way and using bunk like Myer Briggs to present people being cool, calm and logical about it all and others being emotional and irrational. It's very generic and who are you saying is rational and irrational? Or who's logical and emotional? If you're just saying people process things differently, of course I agree. What are you trying to imply or relate this to with regards to this?
Well if you're not confident someone isn't guilty of the things he's accused of, that's not a great place to start, considering how serious the accusations are. It's a very low bar to say we shouldn't have any doubts. I should be confident in my conviction he's innocent, which I'm not. I'm not being dishonest to myself in anyway shape or form.
I am aware how serious the allegations are, hence why I expect more detail from the accused. Sure, I'm happy to change my mind when presented with anything to counter what's currently out there, there's no sign of that though.
Again I don’t know so I suppose 50/50. Based on only the evidence I’d initially seen and heard I’d be 95/5 thinking he’d done it, but to my mind if it was as clear as that appeared, he’d be behind bars right now. You don’t escape that because of a witness dropping out, especially not in a case which is so high profile. The result of the CPS and club investigation probably pushes me towards 45/55 thinking he didn’t do it. Basically in simple terms, the evidence is so compelling to me, that in my view he would either be in prison for it, or there is genuinely another explanation/additional context etc which makes him innocent.
People don't buy the idea that he was stitched up - but opted to straight away try to get back together with the woman who stitched him up rather than, you know, fight it via his legal team.
If there was a perfectly reasonable (if potentially embarrassing) explanation for what was released initially (the audio, the pics) - do you really think the involved parties wouldn't have come out with it?
Alternatively, do you really think Greenwood would have sacrificed his United career in order to protect a woman who effectively stitched him up/made him look like a feckin' creep (at best) in the eyes of the world?
The audio has never been explained. The pics have never been explained. If the people involved have context to add, why haven't they done so?
The only possible context here that makes him look good is that she stitched him up - and rather horribly so, one could add. And then - for pretty much unfathomable reasons, call me cynical - he decided to turn martyr in order to protect her. You find that likely?
With respect, this is probably the most mental take in the thread so far: what we know is so compelling that I lean towards the opposite direction because of what we don't know. It's insane. Although I appreciate the honesty, it's far better than the fake self-proclaimed """"""neutrality"""""".
Thank you for answering the question. I disagree with your logic but appreciate your explanation
A witness? Isn't it more like the one and only witness? If she withdrew her story I can easily imagine the prosecutors having a hard time getting a conviction. The photos and audio might not be enough by themselves.
I don't agree with any of the statements you make here - it might be your way of looking at the world but it certainly isn't mine or many others.
Pathetic
I don’t see it framed quite the same way but yeh can see your point. I’d say the CPS dropping the case and the Utd investigation are “evidence” in a sense.
of course
Feeds the machine though innit?
Nah I don’t see it. Plenty of cases are continued without a witness. Bear in mind the witness in this case has at no point aided in the investigation (which could be for a multitude of reasons). The evidence is pretty strong as it is. From the comments regarding additional evidence and Utd saying there is a longer audio clip with additional context that leads me to think he’s probably not as guilty as first appeared in public. Whether that makes him innocent is another question, but at that stage I’m happy to go with the club.
It has been reported that she did an ABE interview, and that she at a later date recanted what she said. This interview would have been used it court.
I find it so strange that so many in this thread who (quite rightly) have slagged off the decisions this administration have made over the last decade and more suddenly believe they can run a fair, honest and impartial investigation. You all heard the audio, there is no excuse. Get rid, don't even care if it's a free. Football doesn't matter a jot compared to attempted rape, controlling coercive behaviour and actual bodily harm.
Exactly this. How people continually try to justify bringing him back after that audio and no proper explanation being released by MG is unbelievable. As I've said before it just shows the true colours of some posters on here, some only care about football and some clearly couldn't care less about women and DV.
Stopped reading here. Do those 'plenty of cases' you refer to include DV cases where the abused party is the key witness? If not, it's totally irrelevant.
Couldn't agree more. In the end of the day, it's only football. Some people here are so starved for success they are willing to keep bad apples in the team. Just one bad apple can spoil the barrel.
We want to be a succesful football club again and that doesn't happen when some of the players have bad and unprofessional attitudes.
There are lots of good footballers out there, identify them, why hang on to this particular one?
If he's clear in the clubs eyes, why should they be scared of backlash and sponsor reaction? They can't prove he's clear or they would of done so last backlash.
What's worse is that United are playing at the same time, be very interested to see who watches what.Pathetic
Yep exactly, completely agree. And as I've said before, I just can't see the new regime bringing him back anyway, it'd be such a black mark on them when they're trying to get all fans on their side by overhauling everything. Bringing MG back would wreck that, be terrible PR.
And not to mention the effect it could have on the dressing room, because, much like on here, there's going to be a division amongst the players and staff. Some will be fine with wanting him back and others definitely won't, and that's something any manager/coaches/football directors/owners will not want, because it would massively affect how the players are with each other.
Oh really? That'll definitely be interesting alright
Very interesting indeed.....is this the beginning of another theory titled "Some posters support Greenwood over United?
It's not a theory, some posters clearly seem to care more about him than United, if you'd read this thread you'd know that.
Apologies, I'm completely new to this thread... and no, I very much doubt that there are posters who support Greenwood over United.
Because they're fans and will try to rationalise whatever the club does. Not because they actually think what the club does has anything to do with his guilt.
What I said was it seems like they do, they get so in to their defence of him it feels like they care more about him than United. You'd swear they were family members.
Obviously there isn't - just typical strawman bollocks
I'd happily support a ban for anyone watching Getafe over United !
Not at all, but shows how stupid the love in is you forget the team you're supposed to support is playing at the same time.
‘Can’t wait’
Football fandom has gone haywireBecause we heard the audio. Someone clip up the audio for these people who seem to have forgotten.
When you start with a lie, no one will believe you.
I assume it's because they just want bragging rights over the Jones'
Thank you Rood, I agree with you.
@TrustInJanuzaj has been the only one of the "I don't know" contingent who has had the courage to reply to this question.
I don't agree with his answer but I respect that he vocalised it.
Anyone else? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone? @flameinthesun ? Anyone?
Sorry if the way I've worded my response or questions has offended you at all or they've came across wrongly.
Im not intentionally being obtuse so im sorry if it comes across that way. I know what was said as i watched a video which showed the transcript alongside the audo. I'm not going to defend the content of the audio or deny that he spews a load of bile. I don't think it's damning at all though. I think the transcript reads worse than the audio sounds if that makes sense?
I've never once suggested I have proof he isn't guilty or even that i think hes innocent. That's why I'm asking those who are confident he's guilty as they've processed these same things while still coming to a conclusion on his guilt.
There could be many reasons for the parents statements. To be honest it was the dads one which I found the weirdest as I'm pretty sure he even tried to suggest her phone was hacked? That to me feels like a weird angle to take as it offers little explanation on the images and audio released. To do it the morning after too - weird. But would a mother and father both lie especially having seen the stuff on social media. This isn't typical behind closed doors abuse while charming to the parents face. This is images and audio which I presume the parents would have challenged and wanted an explanation for themselves. I don't think that they wouldn't have "good intentions", maybe misguided but not bad. I don't think they would lie if their daughter was being raped and abused and they were concerned for her safety. I just can't see that.
I'm not hiding anywhere about the context of the pictures and audio? I've spoken about the audio in depth. If you have a question I'll try to answer. The reason I press those who have given their own verdict is because they've managed to come to a conclusive decision with the information we have in the public domain. So if someones convinced he's guilty then that also means they don't believe the parents or think that they've got bad intentions.
In terms of the partner not being involved in the United investigation - no idea. Was she asked? Did she refuse or was she never asked? Does whatever evidence is available which shows "it doesn't show the full picture" maybe provide enough evidence in itself without her partaking? Was there further media, text messages, recordings, videos, pictures etc... which matched the timelines and gave rational explanations? I don't see her not taking part in the investigation within MUFC to have much effect on my views.
I think from a legal perspective, particularly when under investigation, that he probably was advised not to make any statements. There's also his contract with Man Utd and there may be some agreements in place there. Privacy is another reason. And then the public tsunami which will follow it too. Right now he's settled at Getafe with regular minutes and a fairly normal life for a footballer. Nothing he or she says can offer any guarantee of stopping speculation, people will still add their own spins. Theyve got a child now so theyre lying as theyre trying to be a family, shes lying for him, its coercive control, if it was true why didnt they say it sooner etc...
I don't think the audio is pleasant in anyway, I agreed with you earlier where you said it was bile. I've just said that I am not convinced in anyway at all that I'm listening to attempted rape there. That's where we differ. Not you thinking the audio is horrible and me not.
Not sure what you're talking about in terms of if it was your son saying those things you wouldn't expect people to have sympathy for you as a parent? The only parents I was talking about where the accusers, not masons. It was the accusers mum in the United investigation right? And the accusers dad who did a public statement the day after? Or have I got that wrong as I'm genuinely doubting myself now. I'm not implying Mason is the victim either.
Wow I'm not trying to put people in a box in any way at all. It's probably the language I used or how I've tried to explain it which has got lost on translation. I don't at all think those who believe he's guilty are all emotional and irrational. There'll be people on both poles with conflicting views. I think those who have stronger feelings as to what they think happened in the audio are more likely to find him guilty. Its just a thought not me trying to box people in.
Not really too sure what your stance is with that second to last paragraph. So you're confident he's guilty or what exactly?
Not sure if I asked if you'd change your mind on your stance. Was asking if you'd be remorseful if he was found innocent and if it would change how you analyse similar allegations in future. I'm presuming not by your reply, you can correct me if I'm wrong.
Is being stitched up by her the only explanation though? And being stitched up is quite a loose term too. You could still be guilty of some things while not everything accused - so is thst still a stitch up?
Would his legal team come out with it if there was an explanation which isn't perfectly reasonable but maybe doesn't reach the levels required for prosecution? Does having a baby on the way influence this more?
I think even with a very plausible explanation there'd still be doubters. I sort of mentioned it in my last reply to Lash above. If a reasonable explanation came out today I could see people saying why didn't they say that sooner - must be fabricated. If it came out after she removed her statement people would still claim she was coerced into it. I don't think there is a magic fix whether he's innocent or whether his partner is willing to cover and lie for him - some people will still hold strong feelings and convictions.
I think Greenwood's legal team could have put up a strong defence against the evidence posted online. What I don't know is if the accuser has more evidence which further compounds his guilt. But based on what was released I don't know if it would have earned a conviction. So why did he go back? Maybe they're genuinely in love and care for eachother? I don't think his career depends on them being in a relationship and with or without her I think he'd still have a career in football. Same goes for if found guilty too, I think he'd have came back to football and potentially have a decent career.
In terms of why no explanation released - ive tried to explain that above when asked in different ways. Any explanation now is likely to come with further questions and explanations.
I do however think that he surely must have had to give a much more comprehensive explanation to friends, family and the club. I very much doubt her parents seen that content and took "it's all fake" as a reasonable explanation. So why did they seem to defend him? Bad intentions? If so what do you think those intentions are?
I think there's other explanations aside from the one you've given. Which you can probably establish from reading between the lines of the above. And of course another is that he's guilty of everything accused too. Do you think he's guilty of everything he was charged for? Or are you not sure? 80/20?
A hour and a half of silence today
Having read the first few pages of this thread, i'd beg to differ.
He's coming into form just in time for Madrid. I'm not expecting too much because you'd think Madrid are just going to dominate them so it'll be interesting to see how he does. His last performance against one of the leagues better teams (Atletico) makes you think he could do something, though.