Yeah, that's a bit concerning mate.
Mason Greenwood | Please be respectful and stay on topic
- Thread starter keithsingleton
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Actually mate, lots of people have responded to this on every single page of this thread. You just seem to want personal responses.
None of the “I don’t have enough information” contingent believe him innocent nor guilty, that’s the fecking point.
Feel free to quote the relevant posts as I don't believe anyone exists
Getafe coach on Greenwood - I'm guessing it's a comment on his workrate off the ball:
'He is a great player but everyone has a job. We are very happy with the work from Greenwood, Borja, Maxi but without everyone’s work he cannot shine,’ Bordalas said.
‘Greenwood had a great first half, although not so much in the second half.
‘But everyone has worked for the team. They were aware of the importance of the game and finally we achieved it.’
https://metro.co.uk/2024/01/30/maso...oach-man-utd-star-scores-vs-granada-20192473/
'He is a great player but everyone has a job. We are very happy with the work from Greenwood, Borja, Maxi but without everyone’s work he cannot shine,’ Bordalas said.
‘Greenwood had a great first half, although not so much in the second half.
‘But everyone has worked for the team. They were aware of the importance of the game and finally we achieved it.’
https://metro.co.uk/2024/01/30/maso...oach-man-utd-star-scores-vs-granada-20192473/
I think more accurately they aren't willing to state a personal belief in public, whichever way they fall. I sincerely doubt that of the "I don't have enough information" contingent, none of them have an opinion on it.
Mate...you tagged me at 10:20pm...then at midnight....why do you think I may not have responded to you? Do you think its because you've asked a revolutionary question on here that in the many pages of this thread has never been asked before and everyone is stumped by it? Or you're tagging people in the night and maybe, just maybe....they are asleep?
You did this with another question of yours a little while back saying no one's answering your question when in fact a few people had answered your question. The reality is pretty much every question has been asked and answered multiple times over. However, I'll go back and answer yours.
Workrate has definitely been an issue, but, against Granada, I did notice an improvement in that regard.
I'll preface that I haven't read Januzaj's response
I've stated multiple times on here that I don't know whether he's innocent or guilty therefore I'll put my trust (rightly or wrongly) in the review United does and I've stated that before their results were known. As they have more access to both data and those involved, if they believe he didn't do it fair enough, same in the reverse. Whilst I would have preferred them to conduct it via a 3rd party, the fact that they ran their findings by the alleged victim's family is a positive I guess.
The very reason a lot of people (more than most think) are either 50/50, unsure or don't know is simple because there are more things than just the pics/audio i.e. the quick rescinding of her statement, the getting back together, dropped charges, united's review, the family approving the review etc.
Some people are not comfortable saying I don't know, which I get as a lot of people want things to be black and white, for or against but unfortunately that aint the world we live in.
Also I've pretty much written the above multiple times and whilst this isn't necessarily directed at you, if there is a question that has been asked multiple times and I've given my answer mutliple times I'm likely not going to reply to it.
I wonder when he'll be moved to CF, if ever. He seems so much of aware of space and his teammates' positions than I can recall of his time with us. It looks to me like he spent a ton of time studying the game during his time out.
Already looks like an upgrade over whatever we have on the right offensively. Sancho included.
More or less echoes my position which I've also posted multiple times.
Many others have said similar too already so I don't know why it needs to be constantly repeated. In fact if there was a poll with more options than the basic Yes/No then I think the 'Unsure' option would be the most popular.
People still thinking that there's a "he didn't do it" option 
Footballer who plays upfront scores a goal shocker. How did he move the ball into the net like that? Wow it even took a deflection!!! I cant believe me eyes.
We don't know 100% of the details regarding the goal so I think it's fair to just assume he didn't score it.
His general play has definitely improved from his time here which is incredible considering the time out. I thought he'd be worse, if anything. I said it before but I think it helps playing in a poor team because he has to get involved now. He can't drift out of games and expect chances like he did here playing with the likes of Bruno/Pogba/Martial/Rashford.
Unlike most, I've always preferred Greenwood on the right. I remember everyone wanting Sancho on the right with Greenwood replacing Martial as our CF but I was happy with the three Ms and wanted someone like Grealish behind them instead of going for Sancho. That didn't work out!
Big game for Getafe tomorrow against Real Madrid. Hope the boy does well and spark more interest.
The idea was that Greenwood's finishing is world class and should be moved to CF after gaining more experience, which makes perfect sense. I never fancied him on the right for 2 main reasons: 1. His poor defensive work-rate 2. Mediocre in the build-up play.
He seems to have addressed the 2nd point to a large degree (for a poor/midtable La Liga team) but will need to show much more to get away with being poor defensively.
But yes, his maturity is showing.
Oh, yeah, I always understood the reasoning and I'm not saying it didn't make sense. It's just the way we played that year with Martial as the false 9 dropping deep to play in two wide forwards in Rashford and Greenwood was just my personal preference. It was one of the very, very few periods of entertainment post Fergie. Those three actually outscored Liverpools three that year.
I do still see him becoming a CF but I still prefer him on the right myself.
Yup, there is a reason why when a poll goes up in this thread the options are only ever yes or no.
I think more accurately they aren't willing to take a position without having more information. I sincerely doubt that of the "anyone who hasn't shouted Greenwood must never play for united again" contingent, that you don't already know that.
It actually is fascinating that you don't quite grasp that, seeing as its been explained multiple times in detail by multiple posters. Seeing as you believe that I am not stating my personal belief in public, please, go ahead and let me know what my personal belief is?
Going to break this out as I think the long format is a bit confusing.
To a degree, but I'd also ask why this information wasn't brought forward earlier? Of course if it all comes out that is a deep fake, a big plot by his partner, the GMP, the CPS to send him down, it would very much rock my world view and I'd change the way I look at things. I don't really understand how your hypothetical comes to pass.
It's not offended me, I am just surprised that you went back and listened and didn't think it was damning. What are you defining as rape or attempted rape? I can see what you mean that the transcript looks harsher, but in the cold light of day, that is what he said.
I'm just not sure how we can process additional information when the original information hasn't been processed. The fact we still have lots of questions and additional information hasn't done anything to resolve those, make the additional information a bit moot.
There's a lot of "presume" and "believe" here, which if you are doing, how can you come to a conclusion of their motives?
I don't think you understood my point here, I meant hiding behind the fact you can't 100% say what it is. You can't say you don't see the audio as damning as you don't know the full context (I assume that's why you don't think it's damning), but when you present your understanding of the parents statements as fact. They could have drunk the kool aid of a remorseful Mason, their child may have asked them to do it, they may believe it's better they stay together but know what happened. We can't answer it, because again, it doesn't address the original questions about the audio and pictures.
I can only assume she was, if not, the MUFC investigation would have been a farce. I believe she asked not to - why is also unknown. No, if you want it to be objective and find the truth. If you want to absolve Mason of wrong doing, then sure. Again we don't know any of that and her not taking part is curious - yet again more unanswered questions.
I agree why he didn't at that point. Post the investigation internally and case being dropped, the statement was mealy. I can understand the reasons why they haven't, I just don't buy that he's not had a right to reply, he's just chosen to be vague and then stay silent on the matter.
I think this will probably be where we part ways in the conversation. Unless you can explain why, coherently.
Nope, that's my mistake and misread what you said. Apologies.
That is what Myers Briggs does though, I just think it's not a good thing to use, because it certainly looks like you're implying someone with strong feelings (emotional, or whatever you want to say) isn't able to be as logical as someone without. If you're not, I don't really understand who you're saying is thinking logically vs emotionally. Or are you just broadly speaking? If you are, I don't really understand what point you're trying to make.
I am confident he threatened to rape her and I'm not confident he didn't abuse her, based on what I know. That's more than enough to not support him to be back at the club.
To a degree, but I'd also ask why this information wasn't brought forward earlier? Of course if it all comes out that is a deep fake, a big plot by his partner, the GMP, the CPS to send him down, it would very much rock my world view and I'd change the way I look at things. I don't really understand how your hypothetical comes to pass.
The thing for me is, I don't need to hear the extended recording, or know that there was a physical act of sexual violence, to know that what I did hear in the recording is enough.
If that was a recording of my best friend or a family member, that would be enough for me to no longer want to be associated with that person. I can't think of one piece of contradicting evidence that'd make me feel otherwise, so it's pretty easy for me to feel like I absolutely don't want to celebrate him as part of the football club I support.
There's a lot of 'but we don't know if he actually did it.' - and yeah, we don't, but we've heard the recording and the threat of rape is an act of abuse in itself.
If that was a recording of my best friend or a family member, that would be enough for me to no longer want to be associated with that person. I can't think of one piece of contradicting evidence that'd make me feel otherwise, so it's pretty easy for me to feel like I absolutely don't want to celebrate him as part of the football club I support.
There's a lot of 'but we don't know if he actually did it.' - and yeah, we don't, but we've heard the recording and the threat of rape is an act of abuse in itself.
But once again Manchester United in their statement have claimed that it is part of a longer recording, and that somehow this longer recording would convince them of his innocence. Now, obviously that’s not enough to claim his innocence, it’s something we have heard through a party that has a significant financial interest in him being “innocent”.
What it does tell you though, is that Mason Greenwood at least, has some kind of explanation to the recording and how a longer recording turns this audio completely around. So this idea there’s no possible explanation for the audio clip needs to go away. L
The problem is we never went to court with this and we have no idea what that explanation was/is hence the “I don’t have all of the information to judge him” stance.
After nearly two years, how many people are really unsure of whether deep down they want or would accept MG back? If people are still unsure, are they waiting for some revelatory new evidence that exonerates him (unlikely at this stage, let's face it), MG -and his partner maybe- to do an interview that at least provides context or just to see if he does still have it on the pitch, making the inevitable shitstorm if he returns worth weathering?
I'd have thought most people's views are so entrenched now, I'd be surprised if that many are unsure.
The last poll was just straight 'yes' or 'no' because I thought it would give the purest answer and see what people really thought - if people really didn't know they could just not vote.
It could have additional options like, 'yes if some exonerating evidence is produced', but we all know that's unlikely at this stage, so it would just muddy the waters. Maybe there is a better argument for having 'unsure' as an option that was missed.
I agree with you on this, at this point I’d be extremely surprised if anyone is unsure.
I selected no in the vote, but would have preferred an option that explained the no was due to my belief that it will be best for all parties (the United circus, his career and most importantly his young family), for him to stay abroad rather than a no because I believe he’s definitely guilty.
Well until I hear this explanation, I don't think I have to just be satisfied with the absence of it.
I feel like the club's internal investigation was at least in some part damage control and PR. Consulting the women's team isn't an action to establish MG's innocence or guilt, it's an exercise in understanding what the wider public reaction is going to be, and if the club think they can afford the hit to their reputation.
I don't believe that the club have some magic piece of evidence that negates what happens in the recording. I can't even imagine what that would possibly be.
If the longer recording 'turns this completely around' I'll need to hear it.
You believe no one is unsure (unless I've taken your stance wrong), whilst multiple posters have stated they don't know, are unsure etc. There's a very simple way of polling whether either of us are correct....
Some people have awful imaginations in this thread man.
I could come up with a tonne.
One simple one… the audio continues, she says extremely firmly “stop now Mason, this is not funny now” to which he instantly stops and apologises for taking it too far.
You don’t have to be satisfied with anything, that’s your prerogative, I personally can’t be convinced of anyone’s certain guilt or innocence based on so little evidence and no opportunity of in court rebuttal nor cross examination of that evidence.
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I'm certainly surprised people are unsure, but obviously realise that any poll on any subject with the 'unsure' option, a proportion always seem to tick it.
That's fair enough re your reasoning.
I have you blocked but as you're addressing me directly I guess I'll respond.
Did you even read what I said? I said that I think many have a very good idea of whether he's guilty or innocent but they aren't willing to state that personal belief (ie take a position on it) in public. Please read more carefully before engaging in this kind of patronizing manner.
As for the bolded, I have no idea and care even less. Given your input into this thread your opinion or thoughts on the subject are utterly meaningless to me.
You were the person that told me to block you. I did, so please, leave me alone.
So the usual waffle then.
Do you believe the police had access to the longer version of the tape?
why would I “believe” anything? The only thing the press statement from the CPS said was that the withdrawal of the key witness and new evidence lead them to drop charges.
Once again, I don’t have enough information to believe anything with a degree of confidence.
Just to be clear, the question that was being asked above was about guilt vs innocence which is very different to the more simplistic 'Do you want him back?' Yes/No poll that went up - although many would vote the same way on these 2 questions, there are several reasons why you might not.
As it happens, I did not vote in the poll exactly due to the reasons you mention.
I am open to his return in the summer, but it depends on his performance on and off the pitch between now and the end of the season.
I also still think it is possible that they do some kind of interview/explanation - I was surprised it didnt happen last summer and I dont think its possible for him to return without it.
The poll question was just if you wanted him back, but this subsequent convo is about who is still unsure and what would tip to them to make a decision either way. I imagine quite a few of those unsure will hold back from full endorsement til they see how the season pans out.
I think it's possible they do an interview, but it's not the easy PR win some might think. It'd have to acknowledge the 'mistakes' MG admitted too, however they'll be framed, while not making his partner sound like she was lying. All while not explicitly having MG admit to domestic violence, which would presumably negate the point of the exercise, unless he does a full confession and talks about being reformed, which seems an outside bet, but who knows. Everyone will be watching it and you can bet the tabloids will all have body language experts, DV counsellors and the like scrutinising every frame of the video.
I don't believe I'm alone in that mindset. We'd tackle the court backlogs in this country in a day with some of you.
Damning for me means it strongly suggests they're guilty. I don't think listening to it makes me confident they're guilty of attempted rape. Doesn't mean it may not be happening in that audio, just means I'm not convinced or that I have strong feelings it's happening from what I listened to.
Attempted rape is if someone clearly intended to sexually penetrate the victim without consent. As an athlete I imagine Mason is quite strong compared to the accuser too. Listening to that was I convinced I'm listening to someone forcefully attempt to penetrate without consent? I'm not.
There is alot of presuming and believing because its very much alot of guess work. I could use similar language to others and say "he did this/that" but that implies I know - I don't. You've presented other possible explanations yourself with "may have", "could have", "may believe", "may have asked them to". I think we're aligned in terms of the language we used as neither of us know.
I don't think I have presented the parents statement as fact though as you've literally just spoken about the language I've used when giving possible explanations. I was challenging this for people who have decided a verdict because they've obviously processed this when coming to a decision and either dismissed it as not being instrumental or came to a conclusion thst collaborates with their verdict.
In terms of the investigation I did do a bit more research into it last night and came across some interesting points I didn't notice before. I'll raise this at the end of the post.
I would agree that he's chosen to be vague and stay silent on the matter.
I think I've expanded on why I don't think I'm listening to rape earlier in this post. I think if the audio alone was enough evidence then the case could have proceeded? I'm not convinced that the case dropping was solely down to a statement being withdrawn either. Which I'll expand on at the end. And a statement provided by the CPS or Man Utd (I'll find it and provide it) did say the audio was part of a longer recording. I presume the content in this longer recording may also offer reasoning and an explanation for the decisions made from the investigation.
The Myers Briggs us probably a poor example. Honestly I find that stuff interesting and I remember it discussing thr different thinking methods in the past. I googled it and found the first result discussing the difference in the way people think. I then quickly jotted down the shortest explanation I could as it wasn't meant to be a big part of the post. It may be a shit point. But an autistic person compared to someone with alot of emotional intelligence will process this differently. Whether that makes a big difference in terms of wider population and how they process it I'm not sure. I'm quite mathematical and logical myself and I prefer black and white over subjective topics. So I presume due to how my mind works thst my thinking is likely a factor. I don't think my method of thinking is better or makes me better equipped than anyone else in analysing this. But it may explain a difference in how we reach our conclusions.
See that's interesting because I'd be the other way round and think there's more chance of domestic abuse over rape. But that's just from how I've read it.
In terms of the investigations. There are things surrounding it which add further questions for me.
Richard Arnold said, "The alleged victim requested the police to drop their investigation in April 2022"
Mason Greenwood was charged in October 2022. I can't find anything online which says when the witness withdrew their statement. Could there statement have been withdrawn in April 2022 before charged or does anyone have a source which says when it was?
When the case was dropped we were told by the CPS:
"“In this case a combination of the withdrawal of key witnesses and new material that came to light meant there was no longer a realistic prospect of conviction. In these circumstances, we are under a duty to stop the case."
Key witnesses is plural. So someone aside from the accuser also withdrew a statement. I think that's a key bit of info. In addition it says "and new material came to light".
Unless the new material was instrumental in changing the decision it wouldn't have been mentioned. So this is a key piece of evidence in the case.
Going back to the key witnesses comment. Again I can see the accuser tried to stop the investigation in April 2022 - is that when their statement was also withdrawn or is there anything else which gives an indication when it was withdrawn?
Then between October and February new material and removal of a secondary witness (and potentially the accusers witness statement if it wasn't revoked when they tried to cancel the investigation in April 2022) found the case dropped? Either way the case was never dropped solely due to the accuser removing their statement like many try to imply. It was dropped due to multiple witnesses removing their statement and new evidence.
As for the new evidence, Richard Arnold did say:
"We were provided with alternative explanations for the audio recording, which was a short excerpt from a much longer recording, and for the images posted online."
So that's confirmation that the audio was cropped in black and white there. So no I cannot be confident that a short exert I listened to was an attempted rape. Especially upon learning that additional evidence, possibly this longer recording, came to light which stopped the case alongside witness(es) removing their statements.
Now unless of course the CPS is lying about additional evidence influencing their decision. And if Richard Arnold is also lying about the recording being an exert from a larger recording. Then I can't help but think what is on this longer recording is critical in whether or not attempted rape is happening. That alongside my doubts from listening to the recording is enough for the evidence to not be damning in my eyes.
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Okay, that's sort of understandable.
My main issue with that stance is that people use the 'not enough information' to justify wanting him back, but it very much ignores what information we do have. I think it's fair to question why they don't want a legitimate explanation for what they heard.
Sidenote - you have a weird thing for suggesting alternative scenarios for that audio clip.
What is it about the clip that suggest to you that it isn't an attempt to rape?
There are some olympic level gymnastics going on in this thread to reach that conclusion.People still thinking that there's a "he didn't do it" option