Mason Greenwood | Please be respectful and stay on topic

[adexkola]

To be fair in this case Riley’s sex does matter because she’s fighting the course of female victims of domestic abuse. However, her opinions should be respected irrespective of her gender.

She's not doing that here. Very little of any of this annoying saga involves fighting the course for female victims of domestic abuse. As far as this matter goes, that fight was lost when this did not go to trial, closing the door on any heinous acts being punished by law.

And it's not like she's using her platform currently to raise money for domestic violence victims, or going on an educational campaign, or lobbying the government to reduce the number of rape kits, or anything that is tangible towards reducing domestic violence/sexual assault.

She's just expressing her anger at Manchester United. Which is her right to do as a citizen with free speech. But please, "fighting the course of female victims of domestic abuse"... no.

I don't really get the "court of public opinion" angle. Unless the audio is supposed to be ignored or if people are not allowed to have an opinion on it why are so many acting as if people opinions on the matter are worthless?
The only alternative that I see, is that some think that the audio was perfectly fine and that the interaction shouldn't lead to any opinion which to me is strange but maybe I'm missing something.

People are allowed to have an opinion on it. I think it is safe to say that there has been a wide range of opinions and the club could say they had a lot of people behind them, no matter what the ultimate decision was.

It's witnessing the club (by all reports) take a position, and then get bullied (like bitches) by press figures and other famous people into a different position, that is so pathetic to view.

Dismiss him in May? I think almost everyone would have understood, and faulted Greenwood solely. Keep him yet put him in rehab and all? Most would have got over it by now (bar a few).

Delay the decision, and then change course (according to reports) based on a journalist, Ms Riley and a few MPs who swallowed their tongue in other cases? Again, the club folded (like bitches).

 

[Wibble]

I have a question, why are the people who believe that hes not guilty happy for him to leave and go play for another club, so are they saying we dont care about where he goes just as long as he goes from Manchester United ... so if thats true what does that say about them....

i have an honest question, why are the people who believe that hes guilty happy for him to leave and go play for another club, so are they saying we dont care about where he goes just as long as he goes from Manchester United ... so if thats true what does that say about them....

Who says anyone is happy? Nobody that I know or have seen.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Forgive me for asking but where is this detailed out? The phraseology presented in that statement suggests new evidence to the contrary of their case as opposed to the recanting of their previous evidence - to whit "a combination of the withdrawal of key witnesses" surely covers the recanting of the previous statements whereas the "new material that came to light" does not.

Where is what detailed out? It's basic terminology.

Withdrawal means that you're no longer going to give statements, and/or that you're no longer willing to testify in court. Recanting previous statements is giving a new witness statement, which is new material.

You can withdraw without recanting, and you can recant without withdrawing. Or, you can do both, which is what happened here.

 

[Redlambs]

There is “rule of law”. To penalise him after he has not been charged with criminality is unjust. He was just 20 we all commit mistake. I'm sure he has learned the lesson by being 1.5 yrs on the side. And as human being, I believe he deserves a second chance.

Once again, for the third time now: READ THE THREAD.

You are saying nothing new, and all your points have been discussed over and over. But, I will summarise to get you started by saying:


The criminal system isn't the be all and end all of how people are judged and treated. If it were, nobody would ever be fired for a start.
No, we don't all end up in a cell accused of attempted rape, coercion and assault at 20. We aren't all arrested for breaking bail in a case where we should have been locked up for a period of time for that alone, regardless of the main case.
Not a single person has said he can't have a "second chance".


If you really care about this as much as you seem to, just go and read.

Say you have a kid. You hire a 20 year old babysitter, who you witness molesting your child. You go to the cops, but the case isn't strong enough.

If you don't hire this babysitter again, are you being unjust? Rule of law, second chances, all that.

Good luck getting a straightforward answer there!

I just think the relentless outrage by everyone against him is becoming a bit too much and really unnecessary. Do his sins deserve a life sentence? Yes, he messed up at 19 and he is fully to blame for losing his job, but are people supposed to do their best to make sure he never gets his life back, ever again?

Who has said anything about him getting no being allowed to get his life back? You don't fight what you think is relentless outrage with the same thing in the other direction if you actually care about it. Going all hyperbole in the opposite direction is no good.

Also, you seem to be forgetting the evidence especially the audio. To expect people to just forget that and brush it under the carpet is to completely not understand why DV/rape is incredibly under reported let alone successfully prosecuted.

i have an honest question, why are the people who believe that hes guilty happy for him to leave and go play for another club, so are they saying we dont care about where he goes just as long as he goes from Manchester United ... so if thats true what does that say about them....

Go on then, what does it say? Whilst you are at it, respond to NotThatSoph's post to you.

 

[Yorke to Cole]

He is more than being allowed to "get on with his life".

Still earning $70 per week until he earns the same or more somewhere else.

That is not strictly true though is it. At present he is not able to work in the employment he trains for, it is not just about remuneration.

 

[FortunaUtd]

Court of public opinion means he was assumed guilty by the public based on a sliver of the facts. He wasn't convicted in any legal sense. Its just a phrase.

Ah. Thank you. So public opinion is not actually a court and did not actually try, convict or jail Mason Greenwood?

There is “rule of law”. To penalise him after he has not been charged with criminality is unjust. He was just 20 we all commit mistake. I'm sure he has learned the lesson by being 1.5 yrs on the side. And as human being, I believe he deserves a second chance.

I am getting more confused. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't what happened that he did actually not get penalized after he actually had been charged with criminality?
How should the rule of law have been applied differently in your opinion and what about it is unjust?

 

[Moriarty]

I don’t want to get into even more endless discussions, but just paying & appointing a law firm to investigation is imo just biased as doing it yourself. Surely an independent panel would have to be appointed for proper independent investigation. Just my 2 cents anyhow. Let’s leave it at that.

I don't want to get into an endless discussion either but the CPS could not use the audio/images on their own without the sworn testimony of the victim to corroborate and to place them in context and also to be subject to cross-examination. The only independent panel should be a jury. That is the only way to get to the truth and as there will be no trial, all there is is speculation and people will take their respective positions based on that.

 

[Ali Dia]

I don’t think Fergie would have stood by him at this point it’s just far too toxic but he may have managed him to a point where it hadn’t of happened or it was somehow kept in house. What I do think is that there has been no strong leadership on and off the pitch at this club for far too long. Our better young players were given everything a top player at another club gets without having to fight for it. I’m not saying that our youth players are bad people but who really is likeable or been well managed out of the period from the end of Fergie up to now? Pogba Adnan Wilson Lingard Henderson MG Williams (only going on the stupid bling and the fact Ipswich is the best club he can find right now) they are talented but massively overpaid and at one point overhyped relative to output and all clearly badly managed. It’s been a terrible period for the club. We now know the likes of Giggs Sharpe and Keane and whoever else were no angels but having a really strong manager kept most of it in house and kept players egos in check or else they were gone. It just feels like this player ego culture and football celebrity was allowed to run riot post Fergie even though we were serving up spineless dross on the pitch every season. The money kept pouring in and that’s all that mattered. It’s sad really.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

I don’t want to get into even more endless discussions, but just paying & appointing a law firm to investigation is imo just biased as doing it yourself. Surely an independent panel would have to be appointed for proper independent investigation. Just my 2 cents anyhow. Let’s leave it at that.

Yeah… also, as much as many are desperately trying to ignore it or explain it away - it’s already been investigated by the most thorough of ‘outside parties’ - the fecking Police - and they, in accordance with another ‘outside, non partial entity’ - the fecking CPS, have decided that after looking at the whole case, including far more evidence and material than anyone else has access to, to drop all charges.

Despite there being supposed photographic and audio ‘proof’ that a serious crime has ‘definitely taken place’ - thus making this different to other DV cases according to many experts in here - yet the Police and the CPS, armed with this ‘proof’ still dropped the case. A very high profile case.

Yet people are seriously suggesting that after that, Utd should’ve brought in a lesser power to conduct another investigation with less evidence and far less / zero power and expect the couple to allow their private lives to be gone through by this ‘3rd party’!?

After the Police have investigated and then dropped the case!?

Yeah ok, what a brilliant suggestion.

 

[JPRouve]

The audio, bad as it is, doesn’t necessarily tell a complete story. If there’s more to it we may never know. It’s already been decided that he’s a violent abuser, and they’d sell out Old Trafford to watch the bloke get hanged from the gallows on the centre circle. He may well truly be a horrible rapist and violent abuser of women, but the audio alone does not leave this cut and dried, despite the incriminating content. This is why we have a criminal justice system.

Some of us (myself included) try not to get emotions involved in such discussions and to let the facts speak. We don’t have all the facts, and there’s clearly more to this than just the audio we heard, so I’m personally not drawing any strong conclusion or opinion either way. I feel that’s the logical way to approach it. People in these instances tend to defer to the verdict of the law, because although not perfect, it’s a better than any alternative.

If the audio is bad then why can't I decide that it is bad and have a negative opinion of Greenwood? Since when is it required from me to introduce imaginary context and give it as much weight as a literal recording? unless the parties involved give me a good reason to believe that there is more to it, I have no reason to believe that there is more to it.

The alternative is that you never have an opinion on anything unless you feel that you have a complete story while keeping in mind that the notion of complete story is not even real. When do we start or end the story, at which point is it complete?

 

[poestander]

I’ll stand up for the possible silent group. This decision and decision making process shattered the faith of numerous devoted United fans. The club we once cherished seems to have faded away.

I've been a dedicated supporter for 28 years, and United is part of my life. Games, news, forums. I spent hours every day on United related. Due to time zone differences, I've frequently risen at 4 am to catch games, missing only about 5 live matches in the last 15 years due to flights. Regularly purchasing shirts and memorabilia at the megastore, I proudly display my United loyalty in real life.

After the announcement yesterday, I've concluded that it's time to curtail my unwavering support. The club no longer embodies the essence we cherished. I won't delve into the decision itself, but the irresponsibility and incompetence from the management , now transcend to another level from lackluster performances in the transfer market and team development over the past decade. They don’t care about the club, they don’t care about football, they just want their jobs done.

I'm aware I'm not alone in this sentiment. Engaged in a few private United forums and chat groups, I can affirm that a substantial group is beyond angry about this decision and I’m just one among who feel deeply disheartening and want to take a break.

Did they see this coming? Will they take another U-turn if backslash from another side? What a joke club we become now.

Glazer out! We need new management who love United and know it’s a “football” club after all.

 

[Wumminator]

I’ll stand up for the possible silent group. This decision and decision making process shattered the faith of numerous devoted United fans. The club we once cherished seems to have faded away.

I've been a dedicated supporter for 28 years, and United is part of my life. Games, news, forums. I spent hours every day on United related. Due to time zone differences, I've frequently risen at 4 am to catch games, missing only about 5 live matches in the last 15 years due to flights. Regularly purchasing shirts and memorabilia at the megastore, I proudly display my United loyalty in real life.

After the announcement yesterday, I've concluded that it's time to curtail my unwavering support. The club no longer embodies the essence we cherished. I won't delve into the decision itself, but the irresponsibility and incompetence from the management , now transcend to another level from lackluster performances in the transfer market and team development over the past decade. They don’t care about the club, they don’t care about football, they just want their jobs done.

I'm aware I'm not alone in this sentiment. Engaged in a few private United forums and chat groups, I can affirm that a substantial group is beyond angry about this decision and I’m just one among who feel deeply disheartening and want to take a break.

Did they see this coming? Will they take another U-turn if backslash from another side? What a joke club we become now.

Glazer out! We need new management who love United and know it’s a “football” club after all.

You are not wanted at the club. The club have made a decision and it is not to chase fans like you. Go support wherever Mason ends up next!

 

[Fanatic 00237]

That's not what I was replying to. I have no thoughts on Rachel Riley either way because I barely know her or anything about her. But for some to criticise her opinions on the situation whilst not criticising similar opinions from men, given the context of the situation, is interesting to say the least and certainly telling.

Not this again... I'm pretty sure you wouldn't find any interest or deduce anything from all the outrage people have over a player of colour in this situation whilst having nothing near the same level of outrage over the quotes CR made himself about his own very similar situation with the lady whom he paid off... I have no thoughts on Ms. Riley either (and I had never heard of her before this) but I'm guessing maybe people are criticising her being very vocal about her opinions against United and the pressure she is trying to put on the board, just like they also criticised Crafton and the Athletic.

ah you’re correct, there’s large swathes of the fan base that are completely okay with what he did. They just hide behind weak excuses.

Wow

Who has said anything about him getting no being allowed to get his life back? You don't fight what you think is relentless outrage with the same thing in the other direction if you actually care about it. Going all hyperbole in the opposite direction is no good.

Also, you seem to be forgetting the evidence especially the audio. To expect people to just forget that and brush it under the carpet is to completely not understand why DV/rape is incredibly under reported let alone successfully prosecuted.

You don't need to say it, but you can surely guess that is the most likely outcome which maintained and continuous outrage is going to achieve. I know all about the evidence, but I also know that I don't know everything so if those directly involved have "brushed it under the carpet" and trying to move on with their lives, then I think maybe public opinion should try to do that as well.

 

[Redlambs]

That is not strictly true though is it. At present he is not able to work in the employment he trains for, it is not just about remuneration.

If you get sacked for misconduct, or put on gardening leave, you still can go find work elsewhere. And on that note, I'm sure his agents/United are telling prospective clubs how they got to the decision of him being innocent, but what it is he actually did?

Let's not forget, before this he was in trouble with the England squad. And there was the laughing gas incident. And he states he did wrong in this situation too.

It would be incredibly foolish to blame public perception purely, when he has a track record leading up to these huge allegations.

After the Police have investigated and then dropped the case!?

The police didn't drop the case. They in fact pushed it to the CPS as they thought there was enough evidence of wrongdoing. Also United themselves DID conduct their own investigation, people are simply saying that if it was an outside impartial one it would have looked a lot better.

Which makes your whole post wrong. So calling people moronic is a bit much, no?


Oh and the CPS only dropped the case after she withdrew her statement and new material came to light. Which means she gave a confirming statement in the first place. So, yeah you keep thinking it's all that simple.

Ah. Thank you. So public opinion is not actually a court and did not actually try, convict or jail Mason Greenwood?

Yep. In fact, this "court" doesn't even actually exist. It's about people putting there opinions out there and pressuring things like clubs and businesses into doing what they perceive as the right thing.

I am getting more confused. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't what happened that he did actually not get penalized after he actually had been charged with criminality?
How should the rule of law have been applied differently in your opinion and what about it is unjust?

The case was dropped because the alleged victim withdrew her statement and some new material came to light, after Greenwood broke bail to meet up with her. So he wasn't summoned to court as the case was no longer strong enough and never had to stand trial. However there has been no explanation of the evidence in the public domain, so people are rightly opinionated on that. And others (like the poster you are responding to) who doesn't want those opinions shared.

I’ll stand up for the possible silent group. This decision and decision making process shattered the faith of numerous devoted United fans. The club we once cherished seems to have faded away.

I've been a dedicated supporter for 28 years, and United is part of my life. Games, news, forums. I spent hours every day on United related. Due to time zone differences, I've frequently risen at 4 am to catch games, missing only about 5 live matches in the last 15 years due to flights. Regularly purchasing shirts and memorabilia at the megastore, I proudly display my United loyalty in real life.

After the announcement yesterday, I've concluded that it's time to curtail my unwavering support. The club no longer embodies the essence we cherished. I won't delve into the decision itself, but the irresponsibility and incompetence from the management , now transcend to another level from lackluster performances in the transfer market and team development over the past decade. They don’t care about the club, they don’t care about football, they just want their jobs done.

I'm aware I'm not alone in this sentiment. Engaged in a few private United forums and chat groups, I can affirm that a substantial group is beyond angry about this decision and I’m just one among who feel deeply disheartening and want to take a break.

Did they see this coming? Will they take another U-turn if backslash from another side? What a joke club we become now.

Glazer out! We need new management who love United and know it’s a “football” club after all.

Am I correct in inferring here that you and this "silent group" think they've succumbed to fan pressure here?

 

[golden_blunder]

Say you have a kid. You hire a 20 year old babysitter, who you witness molesting your child. You go to the cops, but the case isn't strong enough.

If you don't hire this babysitter again, are you being unjust? Rule of law, second chances, all that.

But but we can’t afford another babysitter and that babysitter seemed to be doing well. Are you sure that you saw what you think you saw? Your kids not making a statement. Can’t you give the babysitter another chance?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Yet people are actually moronic enough to suggest that after that, Utd should’ve brought in a lesser power to conduct another investigation with less evidence and far less / zero power and expect the couple to allow their private lives to be gone through by this ‘3rd party’!?

This is about as moronic as United conducting their own investigation, which is what actually happened. Not sure what kind of point this even is.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

If the audio is bad then why can't I decide that it is bad and have a negative opinion of Greenwood? Since when is it required from me to introduce imaginary context and give it as much weight as a literal recording? unless the parties involved give me a good reason to believe that there is more to it, I have no reason to believe that there is more to it.

The alternative is that you never have an opinion on anything unless you feel that you have a complete story while keeping in mind that the notion of complete story is not even real. When do we start or end the story, at which point is it complete?

I partly agree and partly disagree. Yes, you're right we can form opinions based on the evidence that we see. In this case, as soon as I heard the audio, I was shocked, disappointed, and concerned, but I also stopped short of making sweeping judgements based on the limited evidence available. The context of words is important, I've probably heard (and said) some shocking things amongst friends as a joke that would see someone sacked at work. You said you have no reason to believe there is more to it, but that's clearly not true because the police, the CPS and Utd, having seen more evidence, have seen it fit to see a different perspective. These stakeholders are far more qualified than you or I to judge this evidence. How can you rule out that if you saw that evidence, you wouldn't change your opinion? It's for this reason I don't really understand how anyone can be so definitive either way.

 

[Ainu]

i have an honest question, why are the people who believe that hes guilty happy for him to leave and go play for another club, so are they saying we dont care about where he goes just as long as he goes from Manchester United ... so if thats true what does that say about them....

Your language tells me you're approaching this without any nuance. People who think he's guilty? That implies that people are playing judge and convicting him, and it's just not as simple as that. I'm sure it is for some, but certainly not the more reasonable voices on here.

As to your question, people have been over this so many times in here it's getting ridiculous now. I'm not going to go over all the possible motivations people might have, but here's one for you to consider: since all of this stuff happened during his time at United in the first place, why would him staying here be in his own best interest? Or in the best interest of his partner and their child?

 

[Spaghetti]

There is nothing positive about making up explanations for domestic/sexual abuse, it is creepy. Especially this one.

I would agree if it was proven domestic abuse. It’s not. Assuming / inventing details of this is far creepier than giving a teenager the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

This is about as moronic as United conducting their own investigation, which is what actually happened. Not sure what kind of point this even is.

The point is clear - it’s been investigated by the most thorough of investigatory groups.

Where were all these voices claiming that Utd should hire an independent investigation team to go through Ronaldo’s case when he returned?

It’s just literally laughable. Just daft to the extreme.

I would agree if it was proven domestic abuse. It’s not. Assuming / inventing details of this is far creepier than giving a teenager the benefit of the doubt.

Indeed, except I’d add, it’s not actually Mason Greenwood I’m giving the benefit of the doubt to personally - it’s the CPS and the professionals who have seen far more of this case than any of the shrieking voices of either side.

 

[Redlyn]

i have an honest question, why are the people who believe that hes guilty happy for him to leave and go play for another club, so are they saying we dont care about where he goes just as long as he goes from Manchester United ... so if thats true what does that say about them....

I don't understand this question. What is your expectation on those people. That they should be sad about him leaving to go play elsewhere or that they should actively prevent him from seeking a career elsewhere? I doubt anyone is happy about anything related to this case. It's tragic all round.

 

[11101]

Ah. Thank you. So public opinion is not actually a court and did not actually try, convict or jail Mason Greenwood?

No. Nobody in any way official has convicted him of anything or even taken him to a court. The police (cps) let him off because they didn't think they could prove he did anything, the club have gone through a less formal and thorough process and said outright that they think he didn't do it.

The general public have assumed he did it based on the leaked recording. That's all court of public opinion means.

 

[adexkola]

Say you have a kid. You hire a 20 year old babysitter, who you witness molesting your child. You go to the cops, but the case isn't strong enough.

If you don't hire this babysitter again, are you being unjust? Rule of law, second chances, all that.

Very weird analogy, given the fact that any parent would automatically remove the babysitter, not to punish the babysitter or prove a point to the world about morals, but to prevent further damage to the child.

Whatever you feel about Greenwood, him not playing for United does not mean he is less likely to assault his girlfriend or worse. There is no benefit other than "this makes some of our fans and Ms Riley feel good". I'd hope that wouldn't be a factor in this grimy hypothetical about someone molesting your child.

 

[poestander]

You are not wanted at the club. The club have made a decision and it is not to chase fans like you. Go support wherever Mason ends up next!

So you think the club has done great on this incident? Then why it’s a lose-lose-lose situation for the club-player-fans? No excuses, the club just sucks at everything now.

 

[bosskeano]

Nonsense, he has been tried and convicted by the public because of the pictures, video and audio the girl showed the world. Any public figure on the planet would have been treated similary.

then why was he not convicted and put in jail? why did all investigations come back that he was found not to have done any physical harm? maybe the audio was only a small piece of a larger picture that not everyone heard or saw

again....i guess guilty until proven innocent by the english press and people. No arguing the audio was some terrible sounding shit but audio means fuk all when it comes to a court of law and actual charging someone with sexual assault

 

[Wumminator]

then why was he not convicted and put in jail? why did all investigations come back that he was found not to have done any physical harm? maybe the audio was only a small piece of a larger picture that not everyone heard or saw

again....i guess guilty until proven innocent by the english press and people. No arguing the audio was some terrible sounding shit but audio means fuk all when it comes to a court of law and actual charging someone with sexual assault

Investigations definitely did not conclude he did not do any physical harm. That’s the whole point!

 

[Pickle85]

then why was he not convicted and put in jail? why did all investigations come back that he was found not to have done any physical harm? maybe the audio was only a small piece of a larger picture that not everyone heard or saw

again....i guess guilty until proven innocent by the english press and people. No arguing the audio was some terrible sounding shit but audio means fuk all when it comes to a court of law and actual charging someone with sexual assault

Did I miss something here? Did this categorically happen?

 

[JPRouve]

I partly agree and partly disagree. Yes, you're right we can form opinions based on the evidence that we see. In this case, as soon as I heard the audio, I was shocked, disappointed, and concerned, but I also stopped short of making sweeping judgements based on the limited evidence available. The context of words is important, I've probably heard (and said) some shocking things amongst friends as a joke that would see someone sacked at work. You said you have no reason to believe there is more to it, but that's clearly not true because the police, the CPS and Utd, having seen more evidence, have seen it fit to see a different perspective. These stakeholders are far more qualified than you or I to judge this evidence. How can you rule out that if you saw that evidence, you wouldn't change your opinion? It's for this reason I don't really understand how anyone can be so definitive either way.

That part isn't true. The police investigation led to his prosecution, the reason the CPS dropped it was due to witnesses withdrawing and the alleged victim recanting her statement. In fact the statement from the CPS is fairly clear, they do not tell you that they dropped it because they think that he is innocent but because they think that the prospect of a conviction are low which is explained by the lack of witness and cooperating plaintive.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Very weird analogy, given the fact that any parent would automatically remove the babysitter, not to punish the babysitter or prove a point to the world about morals, but to prevent further damage to the child.

Whatever you feel about Greenwood, him not playing for United does not mean he is less likely to assault his girlfriend or worse. There is no benefit other than "this makes some of our fans and Ms Riley feel good". I'd hope that wouldn't be a factor in this grimy hypothetical about someone molesting your child.

Why, are you competing for a trophy?

 

[Redlambs]

There is no benefit other than "this makes some of our fans and Ms Riley feel good".

I don't know, one could argue that being removed from the environment where he grew up thinking doing laughing gas, breaking the rules whilst representing your country and then escalating to ending up charged with attempted rape, assault and coercion might actually be a good thing?

I mean, it's not like other clubs won't have support systems in place and may be able to handle it better than we have.

then why was he not convicted and put in jail? why did all investigations come back that he was found not to have done any physical harm? maybe the audio was only a small piece of a larger picture that not everyone heard or saw

again....i guess guilty until proven innocent by the english press and people. No arguing the audio was some terrible sounding shit but audio means fuk all when it comes to a court of law and actual charging someone with sexual assault

As others have said, you've completely missed the point and are making things up to suit your opinion.

 

[El Zoido]

If the audio is bad then why can't I decide that it is bad and have a negative opinion of Greenwood? Since when is it required from me to introduce imaginary context and give it as much weight as a literal recording? unless the parties involved give me a good reason to believe that there is more to it, I have no reason to believe that there is more to it.

The alternative is that you never have an opinion on anything unless you feel that you have a complete story while keeping in mind that the notion of complete story is not even real. When do we start or end the story, at which point is it complete?

You can, people can draw whatever conclusions they want from it. You can think anything about anything, that’s where the discourse comes from. I was addressing more the questions about why anyone would defer to the law rather than get het up over the audio they heard. There’s no ulterior motive from me, I simply don’t feel like I know enough about it to give my own verdict.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The issue is without an explanation of the audio and images, it is impossible to support Greenwood on the pitch and cheer him on as a fan.

I think some of the differences in opinion here boil down to how much separation you find between "the audio and images released to the public" and "the legal case against the player."

Some people see it as one and the same. Some people see it as more separate. I am in the latter group.

If you see it as separate, then the audio tape is a PR disaster that has not been resolved satisfactorily. To do so would require an explanation.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

That part isn't true. The police investigation led to his prosecution, the reason the CPS dropped it was due to witnesses withdrawing and the alleged victim recanting her statement. In fact the statement from the CPS is fairly clear, they do not tell you that they dropped it because they think that he is innocent but because they think that the prospect of a conviction are low which is explained by the lack of witness and cooperating plaintive.

Not strictly true either considering they said a key witness dropped out AND new information was found. It is unclear which shaped their decision to drop charges the most, or perhaps both are interlinked. That is just standard CPS language, they would never come out and express innocence in this context. We don't know the full extent of that evidence, however, what we can infer is that the audio snippet has been heard in full by the CPS and by Utd who also referenced it as part of their own internal investigations. I think it's a fair assumption that there is a longer version of that audio not available to the public which perhaps places some additional context on its content, but again who knows?

 

[Oranges038]

I’ll stand up for the possible silent group. This decision and decision making process shattered the faith of numerous devoted United fans. The club we once cherished seems to have faded away.

I've been a dedicated supporter for 28 years, and United is part of my life. Games, news, forums. I spent hours every day on United related. Due to time zone differences, I've frequently risen at 4 am to catch games, missing only about 5 live matches in the last 15 years due to flights. Regularly purchasing shirts and memorabilia at the megastore, I proudly display my United loyalty in real life.

After the announcement yesterday, I've concluded that it's time to curtail my unwavering support. The club no longer embodies the essence we cherished. I won't delve into the decision itself, but the irresponsibility and incompetence from the management , now transcend to another level from lackluster performances in the transfer market and team development over the past decade. They don’t care about the club, they don’t care about football, they just want their jobs done.

I'm aware I'm not alone in this sentiment. Engaged in a few private United forums and chat groups, I can affirm that a substantial group is beyond angry about this decision and I’m just one among who feel deeply disheartening and want to take a break.

Did they see this coming? Will they take another U-turn if backslash from another side? What a joke club we become now.

Glazer out! We need new management who love United and know it’s a “football” club after all.

As good a reason as any to put this thread on ignore for once and for all.

 

[adexkola]

Why, are you competing for a trophy?

I don't compete for trophies. Moral ones at least. I have a few trophies related to work but that's it

I don't know, one could argue that being removed from the environment where he grew up thinking doing laughing gas, breaking the rules whilst representing your country and then escalating to ending up charged with attempted rape, assault and coercion might actually be a good thing?

I mean, it's not like other clubs won't have support systems in place and may be able to handle it better than we have.

Definitely a legitimate reason. Also not a motivation for many who believe Greenwood should not play football for United or anyone period.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

I would agree if it was proven domestic abuse. It’s not. Assuming / inventing details of this is far creepier than giving a teenager the benefit of the doubt.

Indeed, except I’d add, it’s not actually Mason Greenwood I’m giving the benefit of the doubt to - it’s the CPS and the professionals who have seen far more of this case than any of the shrieking voices of either side.

That part isn't true. The police investigation led to his prosecution, the reason the CPS dropped it was due to witnesses withdrawing and the alleged victim recanting her statement. In fact the statement from the CPS is fairly clear, they do not tell you that they dropped it because they think that he is innocent but because they think that the prospect of a conviction are low which is explained by the lack of witness and cooperating plaintive.

They claimed that charges were dropped due to withdrawal of witness - which formally took place as early as April 2022 - and new material coming to light.

Now you’ve decided that the ‘new material’ was just the withdrawal of witness, but there is absolutely nothing at all to base that on.

People are repeating it because it suits their online argument, but they have no idea at all what the ‘new material coming to light’ is, and no one should be claiming they know what it is.

The witness withdrawal took place in April 2022 and yet all charges were dropped in February 2023, so it seems very unlikely that this is all that took place in the investigation.

Utd have effectively stated that they’ve seen more than the public but less than the Police and are happy to go on record that they think he is actually ‘innocent’ of what he was charged with.

 

[bosskeano]

Say you have a kid. You hire a 20 year old babysitter, who you witness molesting your child. You go to the cops, but the case isn't strong enough.

If you don't hire this babysitter again, are you being unjust? Rule of law, second chances, all that.

I kill that babysitter and the cops take me to jail...simple

 

[HTG]

I‘m very confused by the people talking about a duty of care for Greenwood. The man is 21 years old. He’s an adult. He’s allowed to drink, drive, own property, have a family, earn a living and so on. I just don’t get how a football club has any responsibility there. He’s just an employee. A rather wealthy one, too. So it’s much easier for him to start anew and build a new life than for an average person.
I get that he came from your academy. But at that point of his life, even his parents aren’t responsible for him anymore. He’s responsible for himself. And he needs to care for himself.
In addition to this, I also dislike this argument because it suggests a shared guilt. But nobody here is responsible for Greenwood‘s actions other than himself. And it’s not like rape or sexualised violence or domestic violence are a byproduct of bad care. They are the consequence of a series of conscious decisions undertaken by Greenwood himself. He didn’t act out due to bad care. Or economic issues. He acted from a position of great privilege and power. And as he was comfortable in using or abusing that power, he should also have to face the consequences himself.

I honestly believe the idea that United have any responsibility towards Greenwood to be absurd.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Say you have a kid. You hire a 20 year old babysitter, who you witness molesting your child. You go to the cops, but the case isn't strong enough.

If you don't hire this babysitter again, are you being unjust? Rule of law, second chances, all that.

As far as idiotic analogies go, this one takes the cake

 

[Redlambs]

Not strictly true either considering they said a key witness dropped out AND new information was found. It is unclear which shaped their decision to drop charges the most, or perhaps both are interlinked. That is just standard CPS language, they would never come out and express innocence in this context. We don't know the full extent of that evidence, however, what we can infer is that the audio snippet has been heard in full by the CPS and by Utd who also referenced it as part of their own internal investigations. I think it's a fair assumption that there is a longer version of that audio not available to the public which perhaps places some additional context on its content, but again who knows?

Which would then bring about it's own consequences for them both and still likely lead to him playing for United again as a bad move.

Hence why I'm not sure why people are so hell bent on thinking the best place for them to be is at United now. It's not the first time he's been in trouble whilst under our watch, other clubs have practices in place to help and support them, and going somewhere they are going to be able to move on with life is surely ideal if people think he isn't abusing her? And if they think he is, then why would staying in the same environment change that, especially now he's gotten away with it in their eyes?

I think a fresh start, under a very watchful eye is the best thing all round personally. But that's just my opinion.

I don't compete for trophies. Moral ones at least. I have a few trophies related to work but that's it

Employee of the week is like being the teacher's pet. Nerd!

Definitely a legitimate reason. Also not a motivation for many who believe Greenwood should not play football for United or anyone period.

Where has this thing about Greenwood never playing again come from out of interest? I've not seen anyone say it in here or outrightly on twitter. I've no doubt some have elsewhere, people are horrible, but for the amount it's talked about in here I'm surprised I've not come across it.