Matheus Cunha | Release clause met, transfer being finalised

He's a really good player and instantly improves us.

I just inherently worry about spending over £50m on anyone nowadays. Have we ever signed someone for over that amount who has been an unqualified success? Leny Yoro excluded as it's too early to tell with him.

This is pretty much how I feel.

Below are the top 20 players in the league so far this season for combined goals and assists (15+), and what they cost their current club as per Transfermarkt.

Salah - €42m
Isak - €70m
Haaland - €60m
Mbeumo - €6.5m
Palmer - €47m
Watkins - €34m
Wood - €17m
Murphy - €11.3m
Wissa - €10m
Cunha - €50m
Kluivert - €10.8m
Bruno - €65m
Diaz - €53m
Son - €30m
Joao Pedro - €34.2m
Mateta - €11m
Rogers - €9.4m
Saka - N/A
Elanga - €17.5m
Maddison - €46.3m

So of those 20 players, only 4 cost their clubs more than €50m.

At £62.5m (approx. €73m) Cunha would be more expensive than all of them. And would leave us with two of the three most expensive players on that list.

Which begs the question: do we really need to be buying a player like Cunha at the very top end of the market? It is a lot of money for what he offers, even accepting that what he offers is good.
 
The problem with Cunha is I don't think we can sign him AND a proper #9 who will score goals, and we need the latter way more.
For me this is exactly why we should sign him as he can play both and I actually think that considering we will probably still have Mount/Zirkzee at least who are two left sided options his versatility is a benefit. I actually see him moe as a Brazilian Ronaldo style striker and think he solves our number 9 and adds depth to both positions
 
I am a hard no on this signing. How do you bring somebody into the Manchester United spotlight who absolutely lost it wanting to fight players, managers, trainers and I don't know who else.


He wasn't angry, he completely lost the plot, after getting sent off for throwing a player to the ground a few weeks before.

Players will get under his skin, get him sent off, refs will have his number - he is way too volatile a risk to put a £60m bet on.

It's kind of a double edged sword. We also need players who have a fight in them. Many of our forwards seem to avoid clashes if they can.

My biggest concern is he does something silly like at Wolves and suddenly gets a significant longer ban because there will be a greater outroar at United compared to Wolves. Imagine the field day the usual media would have if he did what he did against Ipswich, no way it would just be 1 additional day.

But I think he would add some much needed energy and confidence on the ball which we desperately need
 
I think if we had to pick one nation that's had the best transfer hit rate for us it would be England right?

Far from perfect but overall I'd say it's the place most reliable. Even the players you've listed to prove otherwise, most of them brought something.

Trying to think of outright terrible transfers from within England. Sanchez definitely. Schneiderlin but at least we got a half decent fee for him. Mount's just been injured. That's nothing to do with proven or where he came from.

I'm probably missing some but overall, England is the safest bet.

You are not wrong, but I would say the safest bet is to get a player with the right profile that fits into the Manager's style, someone who has sufficient physical ability to manage the intensity of the league as well as the right technical ability for their position/role, and mental strength to be at a club like United, many players come into the league take to it like fish in a water, others sink, and in my opinion, the difference is a lot more fundamental, and then even with PL experience, being in the pressure cooker that is United is not for everyone, so strong mentality is another requirement as well.
 
His attitude issues are that he gets angry fast and loves a fight with opposition

People born after 2005 call it stupidity, and people born before 2000 call it passion

both are probably wrong, so you're better off asking people born between 2000 and 2005

I see that as a positive but yeah I'm probably old school.
 
This is pretty much how I feel.

Below are the top 20 players in the league so far this season for combined goals and assists (15+), and what they cost their current club as per Transfermarkt.

Salah - €42m
Isak - €70m
Haaland - €60m
Mbeumo - €6.5m
Palmer - €47m
Watkins - €34m
Wood - €17m
Murphy - €11.3m
Wissa - €10m
Cunha - €50m
Kluivert - €10.8m
Bruno - €65m
Diaz - €53m
Son - €30m
Joao Pedro - €34.2m
Mateta - €11m
Rogers - €9.4m
Saka - N/A
Elanga - €17.5m
Maddison - €46.3m

So of those 20 players, only 4 cost their clubs more than €50m.

At £62.5m (approx. €73m) Cunha would be more expensive than all of them. And would leave us with two of the three most expensive players on that list.

Which begs the question: do we really need to be buying a player like Cunha at the very top end of the market? It is a lot of money for what he offers, even accepting that what he offers is good.

I’m sorry but that whole list is disingenuous
 
Can he be a good striker for us?

I know he plays better deeper - but I'm wondering in buying Delap & Cunha give us 2 strikers aswell as a LAM in 2 transfers.

3 positions in 2 transfer.

If we then buy Cherki -

ST - Cunha, Delap, Zirkzee
LAM - Cunha, Garnacho, Bruno, Mount
RAM - Cherki, Amad, Bruno, Mount

Cunha 60, Delap 35, cherki 25 can rejuvenate our forward line.
 
I typed out a list of players who were at least reasonably similar to Cunha in terms of output and position and their cost (not as alternative signings, but as a comparative measure) but decided not to post it because I couldn't be arsed with the backlash.

One of the names on that list was Antony Gordon and if I suggested we spend £63m on him at the end of last season I think I'd probably have gotten banned from the transfer forum :D
 
I typed out a list of players who were at least reasonably similar to Cunha in terms of output and position and their cost (not as alternative signings, but as a comparative measure) but decided not to post it because I couldn't be arsed with the backlash.

One of the names on that list was Antony Gordon and if I suggested we spend £63m on him at the end of last season I think I'd probably have gotten banned from the transfer forum :D
So you suggested Anthony Gordan after he has already proven a success for Newcastle?

You want to suggest Alexander Isak for our next forward signing too?
 
How is it disingenous? It's literally just a list of this season's most productive players.
Because most of the list is from either bit part players or players from abroad.

Cunha is one of Wolves best players and he signed a new contract last year.

If we’d had gone for him last year under EtH he’d have cost much less as if I remember correctly he had like a 18months left on his contract.

So the list is disingenuous as you’re discounting a lot of nuances in it.
 
I understand some of the reservations but I’ll also say he’s a high quality, PL proven player in his prime. He also adds many of the attributes we sorely lack. He’s exactly the profile of player we need in many regards. Whether he’s the exact player we need is another question.

I’m certainly not against large signings, in terms of fees but they have to be extremely well judged and I would contend that they need to fulfil certain criteria such as PL experience. Great players can be bought from abroad but the fees have to be commensurate. See for example, we spent the same on Sancho and Antony, two complete wash out signings who never managed to adapt to the hurly, burly, fast pace of the PL, as we would’ve done if we had signed Rice and now Cunha. And I don’t think anyone could argue that we’d be a shit loaf better off with the latter pair.

There is a lot of conversation about PL tax, and while some of it is purely because of the financial robustness of nearly every team in the division and not needing to sell when big offers come in, part of it is also because such players do offer a lower risk profile than signings from abroad. When I look at signings from other leagues, I see an opportunity to get a high quality player at a lower price than an equivalent PL counterpart. When the overseas player is costing the same as the PL proven player, I would go for the PL proven player every time. The exception to this is in the case of obviously world class players, of whom there are few.
Warburtons. Doesn't fit in the toaster lengthways.
 
I can´t believe anyone would be against us signing Cunha except from a financial perspective.

He´s easily one of the best players around who is both available, proven at this level, a goalscorer, and in sync with Amorim´s system. In games against us he has looked a level above and shown obvious quality.

There are no guarantees that players will be successful, but he ticks a lot of boxes.
 
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How is it disingenous? It's literally just a list of this season's most productive players.
Filter that list by players at ("traditional") top-6 clubs and it looks quite different. Son at €30m and Salah at €42m are the value picks on the list, and they were signed 10 and 8 years ago respectively. Isak (€70m) Palmer (€47m) and Maddison (€46.3m) from more recent years were all arguably less proven than Cunha. There's also the fact that we're Manchester United, known to overpay for any player with 2 functioning legs.

I'm fairly certain that if we had signed one of Mbuemo, Wissa, Mateta, Rogers, Wood et al at the time of their last transfers, most people would say they have a lot less chance of succeeding than what the consensus is on Cunha at the moment. £62.5mn is about the going rate for someone like him.

That said, I'm also weary of expensive signings, and would rather we do a higher volume of transfers at lower costs, players with either long term potential to be all-time greats, or players from smaller clubs and lower leagues who are on the cusp of exploding (Salah being the prime example).
 
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Great signing! People complaining are funny. Have you watched us this year? He immediately improves us.
If he's on the pitch, he will be a revelation for us I agree; I just wouldn't bet £60 million on his behaviour. To be fair I don't know if these are two isolated moments of madness in his career or he is generally on a very short fuse.
 
This is pretty much how I feel.

Below are the top 20 players in the league so far this season for combined goals and assists (15+), and what they cost their current club as per Transfermarkt.

Salah - €42m
Isak - €70m
Haaland - €60m
Mbeumo - €6.5m
Palmer - €47m
Watkins - €34m
Wood - €17m
Murphy - €11.3m
Wissa - €10m
Cunha - €50m
Kluivert - €10.8m
Bruno - €65m
Diaz - €53m
Son - €30m
Joao Pedro - €34.2m
Mateta - €11m
Rogers - €9.4m
Saka - N/A
Elanga - €17.5m
Maddison - €46.3m

So of those 20 players, only 4 cost their clubs more than €50m.

At £62.5m (approx. €73m) Cunha would be more expensive than all of them. And would leave us with two of the three most expensive players on that list.

Which begs the question: do we really need to be buying a player like Cunha at the very top end of the market? It is a lot of money for what he offers, even accepting that what he offers is good.
I would like Wissa, and Mbeumo - and if we could have only one Mbeumo


Those prices you put are very interesting.
.
 
I can´t believe anyone would be against us signing Cunha except from a financial perspective.

He´s easily one of the best players around who is both available, proven at this level, and in sync with Amorim´s system. In games against us he has looked a level above and shown obvious quality.

There are no guarantees that players will be successful, but he ticks a lot of boxes.

If we got 6 good years out of him, then he's worth the price.

We signed Bruno at a similar age and price.
 
Because most of the list is from either bit part players or players from abroad.

Cunha is one of Wolves best players and he signed a new contract last year.

If we’d had gone for him last year under EtH he’d have cost much less as if I remember correctly he had like a 18months left on his contract.

So the list is disingenuous as you’re discounting a lot of nuances in it.

If those are bit-part players, then it's even more impressive that they're among the most productive in the league. But in reality the overwhelming majority are first choice for their teams.

And the rest of your post is irrelevant to my point. You're providing a list of reasons why he's so expensive, but that doesn't change the fact that he is that expensive and we're still opting to make him our number one choice.
 
Yeah, keep them type of players away from our club.

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Finally ! I was expecting a Cantona response much earlier. It's just that Cunha seemed to loose it more against Ipswich than I can remember seeing before. Eric and Roy knew what they were doing in their big moments I that Cunha just totally lost his head and didn't know what he was doing. If that is a trait he could be dead easy to wind up, and the extra spotlight at United ....

I would like to know if he has any priors before the two this season.

But as a footballer, he would be a great addition. If we really got to choose I would take Carlton Palmer.
 
If those are bit-part players, then it's even more impressive that they're among the most productive in the league. But in reality the overwhelming majority are first choice for their teams.

And the rest of your post is irrelevant to my point. You're providing a list of reasons why he's so expensive, but that doesn't change the fact that he is that expensive and we're still opting to make him our number one choice.

You were discussing transfer fees of those players so what I said was correct, they were bit part players or players from abroad at their former club.

Here’s 3: Palmer/Rogers bit part/youth players at City before moving to Chelsea & Villa. Elanga fringe player at United.
 
This is pretty much how I feel.

Below are the top 20 players in the league so far this season for combined goals and assists (15+), and what they cost their current club as per Transfermarkt.

Salah - €42m
Isak - €70m
Haaland - €60m
Mbeumo - €6.5m
Palmer - €47m
Watkins - €34m
Wood - €17m
Murphy - €11.3m
Wissa - €10m
Cunha - €50m
Kluivert - €10.8m
Bruno - €65m
Diaz - €53m
Son - €30m
Joao Pedro - €34.2m
Mateta - €11m
Rogers - €9.4m
Saka - N/A
Elanga - €17.5m
Maddison - €46.3m

So of those 20 players, only 4 cost their clubs more than €50m.

At £62.5m (approx. €73m) Cunha would be more expensive than all of them. And would leave us with two of the three most expensive players on that list.

Which begs the question: do we really need to be buying a player like Cunha at the very top end of the market? It is a lot of money for what he offers, even accepting that what he offers is good.

What on earth is this list. Maddison 46m? Mbuemo 6.5m? stop using shite like this as a benchmark
 
You were discussing transfer fees of those players so what I said was correct, they were bit part players or players from abroad at their former club.

Here’s 3: Palmer/Rogers bit part/youth players at City before moving to Chelsea & Villa. Elanga fringe player at United.

They're first choice players for their current teams.

The fact that these club successfully bought their current, productive, first team players at those lower price underlines the value of targeting lower profile players from abroad.

Which why I'm asking is it really wise or neccessary for us to instead pay a massive mark-up to target a player on a new contract at a wealthy PL club? When, as this list shows, most equally productive players get signed for much less as clubs avoid making those sort of signings. We're deliberately shopping at the high end of the market.
 
This is pretty much how I feel.

Below are the top 20 players in the league so far this season for combined goals and assists (15+), and what they cost their current club as per Transfermarkt.

Salah - €42m
Isak - €70m
Haaland - €60m
Mbeumo - €6.5m
Palmer - €47m
Watkins - €34m
Wood - €17m
Murphy - €11.3m
Wissa - €10m
Cunha - €50m
Kluivert - €10.8m
Bruno - €65m
Diaz - €53m
Son - €30m
Joao Pedro - €34.2m
Mateta - €11m
Rogers - €9.4m
Saka - N/A
Elanga - €17.5m
Maddison - €46.3m

So of those 20 players, only 4 cost their clubs more than €50m.

At £62.5m (approx. €73m) Cunha would be more expensive than all of them. And would leave us with two of the three most expensive players on that list.

Which begs the question: do we really need to be buying a player like Cunha at the very top end of the market? It is a lot of money for what he offers, even accepting that what he offers is good.

The only thing you would say is some of these players were bought for small fees and it took them years to be hitting the goals/assists that they are now.

We cannot afford to be developing players over years at this point, as need ready made quality from day one.
 
What on earth is this list. Maddison 46m? Mbuemo 6.5m? stop using shite like this as a benchmark

Those are the prices those players were signed at by their current clubs. Why wouldn't we use their actual fees as a benchmark? :lol:
 
Glad the club is aiming to do business early for once. Although I'm sure there will be one target we spend all summer chasing, cynic in me says that's to keep the clubs name in social media etc. mentions during the close season.
 
Absolutely. He is the one attacking player who we are being linked with who could genuinely take us up a level.

In the PL we need 60+ goals at a minimum to be top 6 ish.

If we got double figures in goals and assists from Bruno and Cunha, then we're a good way there.
 
Glad the club is aiming to do business early for once. Although I'm sure there will be one target we spend all summer chasing, cynic in me says that's to keep the clubs name in social media etc. mentions during the close season.
We'll get the two forwards done early, general consensus seems to be we can spend £100m without sales/Champions League next season.

Cunha £65m, Delap £30m uses up that (in theory not knowing the installments, etc). If we can win the Europa, and players like Antony, Malacia and Rashford are sold, then I can see us spending more on nice to have's to bolster the squad.
 
In the PL we need 60+ goals at a minimum to be top 6 ish.

If we got double figures in goals and assists from Bruno and Cunha, then we're a good way there.
Trouble is, where do the other 40+ goals come from?

Our defenders don't often score, our wing backs don't chip in, and our Defensive Midfielders aren't prolific either. Asking for 60+ goals from your attacking 4 isn't realistic, especially with how we've played this season and last season.
 
Trouble is, where do the other 40+ goals come from?

Our defenders don't often score, our wing backs don't chip in, and our Defensive Midfielders aren't prolific either. Asking for 60+ goals from your attacking 4 isn't realistic, especially with how we've played this season and last season.

I guess our Strikers (whoever thay will be), Amad, Garnacho, Mainoo, Wingbacks.

The CMs and CBs will chip in with a few also.

But really the majority should come from the strikers and number 10s, like 40+ from them and then 20+ from other positions.
 
Finally ! I was expecting a Cantona response much earlier. It's just that Cunha seemed to loose it more against Ipswich than I can remember seeing before. Eric and Roy knew what they were doing in their big moments I that Cunha just totally lost his head and didn't know what he was doing. If that is a trait he could be dead easy to wind up, and the extra spotlight at United ....

I would like to know if he has any priors before the two this season.

But as a footballer, he would be a great addition. If we really got to choose I would take Carlton Palmer.
Would you though :lol:
 
Glad the club is aiming to do business early for once. Although I'm sure there will be one target we spend all summer chasing, cynic in me says that's to keep the clubs name in social media etc. mentions during the close season.
Yeah this is a good sign, just wish we were planning to sign experienced striker as well
 
This is pretty much how I feel.

Below are the top 20 players in the league so far this season for combined goals and assists (15+), and what they cost their current club as per Transfermarkt.

Salah - €42m
Isak - €70m
Haaland - €60m
Mbeumo - €6.5m
Palmer - €47m
Watkins - €34m
Wood - €17m
Murphy - €11.3m
Wissa - €10m
Cunha - €50m
Kluivert - €10.8m
Bruno - €65m
Diaz - €53m
Son - €30m
Joao Pedro - €34.2m
Mateta - €11m
Rogers - €9.4m
Saka - N/A
Elanga - €17.5m
Maddison - €46.3m

So of those 20 players, only 4 cost their clubs more than €50m.

At £62.5m (approx. €73m) Cunha would be more expensive than all of them. And would leave us with two of the three most expensive players on that list.

Which begs the question: do we really need to be buying a player like Cunha at the very top end of the market? It is a lot of money for what he offers, even accepting that what he offers is good.
Interesting that but you've got to count for inflation too.
The number 10 position largely went out of fashion as most clubs played wide forwards instead. As Amorim plays 2, perhaps paying a premium for a specialist is inevitable.
I'd also read that United like the structure of the deal. No haggling over the fee but able to pay installments. He's in early in the summer to work with the coach.
 
Which it should be, data is everything, the blend of quantitative and qualitative analysis plus sports science is needed.

If you want a high pressing team then you shouldn't hire a 30 year old over the hill player.

United need xG and xA in the front areas, that are in the high percentiles that can run.

You should work for a club. Honestly the only data important to me is goal and assist numbers, the rest? I leave them for my eyes to judge.
No, because those players take a lot of shots full stop. The whole point of that "less than 0.5 xG chance" is that for every one of those you score, the average footballer shooting from there (which is not they drop every footballer in the top leagues there and make them shoot, it's a measure which is historical so highly weighted towards the type of player that will usually take shots from there) will miss one. For every 3 0.3 xG chances a player scores they will miss 7.

And one of the things that football supporters don't seem to grasp is that xG volume is the main predictor of goals, not xG overperformance. Great goal scorers aren't great, in the vast majority of times, because they're supreme finishers. They're great because they're supreme chance-getters. Son, who might be the best finisher we have data of this kind for, has a league career over-performance of about 31%. Messi is at about 15%. Kane 13%. These are the best of the best.

Ronaldo for instance, since 2014 when data is available to his last year at United, scored 234 goals from an xG of 229.4. So an overperformance of 4.5 goals (which is less than 2%, well inside any margin of error). More interestingly though, he underperformed his xG in 6 of 9 seasons, and without his monster season in 14-15 he'd actually under perform his xG by about 2%.

It's very, very rare for players to consistently exceed their xG by any significant margin. Of the 7 players who have scored 15 goals in the Prem this year 4 have over-performed, 3 have under performed. Of the 5 in La Liga it's 2 over-performed, 3 under. Serie A only have 2, but it's 50:50. Salah has 4 over-performing and 4 under-performing seasons in the PL, Haaland has 1-2, Isak 2-1... You get the gist. You become a great scorer by getting lots of chances, ideally high quality ones. That's what results in players hitting sustainably high goal numbers.

Impressive. Where did you get all these?? I'm not going to read them but i dont mind to show my appreciation.
 
This is pretty much how I feel.

Below are the top 20 players in the league so far this season for combined goals and assists (15+), and what they cost their current club as per Transfermarkt.

Salah - €42m
Isak - €70m
Haaland - €60m
Mbeumo - €6.5m
Palmer - €47m
Watkins - €34m
Wood - €17m
Murphy - €11.3m
Wissa - €10m
Cunha - €50m
Kluivert - €10.8m
Bruno - €65m
Diaz - €53m
Son - €30m
Joao Pedro - €34.2m
Mateta - €11m
Rogers - €9.4m
Saka - N/A
Elanga - €17.5m
Maddison - €46.3m

So of those 20 players, only 4 cost their clubs more than €50m.

At £62.5m (approx. €73m) Cunha would be more expensive than all of them. And would leave us with two of the three most expensive players on that list.

Which begs the question: do we really need to be buying a player like Cunha at the very top end of the market? It is a lot of money for what he offers, even accepting that what he offers is good.

I know you mean well, but this isn't a sensible way to look at it. All you've done is only look at the successes. This will skew the results by ignoring how likely it was to happen in the first place. If you want to understand the correlation between price and probable success, you need to factor in the failures as well. I'm willing to bet that the % of transfers under £10M that go on to do as well as Mbeumo is incredibly small. You can't look at something with a vanishingly small chance of happening and say thats what we should be doing. Its fair to say the relationship between price and performance is not linear, but that doesn't mean there's no positive trend in that direction.