Matthijs de Ligt

JPRouve

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I asked why you chose the criteria of having multiple games in player’s career over the basis of the player doesn’t fit the manager and the league’s profile and the players has been proven 7 years not good enough.

But it‘s okay we can move on if it’s a random pick based on your guts and you can’t give your reason.
And I said why in the initial post, you already responded that you don't expect injuries. From that point there is nothing to discuss about, I want depth and you don't. There is no way to reconcile these two positions and there is nothing more to say.
 

2 man midfield

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As long as we aren’t getting bent over with the fee I don’t see why not.
 

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Because he’s on stupid wages for his age and actual performance. We don’t need another injury prone defender on high wages.
Is he injury prone? Looking at his stats, in his last 6 seasons he’s played 43, 42, 36, 39, 55 and 39 matches. By our standards he’d be Mr reliable.
 

Don_Johan14

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Another signing that would cost €60M+ and with a serious chance of being a fiasco.
 

stefan92

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Is he injury prone? Looking at his stats, in his last 6 seasons he’s played 43, 42, 36, 39, 55 and 39 matches. By our standards he’d be Mr reliable.
I wouldn't worry about that too much, I think it has mostly been little stuff in recent years, nothing serious. Just at the moment it is difficult for him to get game time anyways, so if he isn't fully fit he is likely on the bench. Sometimes even if he is fully fit.
 

JPRouve

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Some of the doubts made me realize that today many fans would be totally against the signings of players like Henry, Walter Samuel, Robben, Cambiasso, Sneijder, Van der Sar and many others.
 

aeh1991

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He's overrated. Rather sign a good CF or CM for that money.
 

Acrobat7

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Is he injury prone? Looking at his stats, in his last 6 seasons he’s played 43, 42, 36, 39, 55 and 39 matches. By our standards he’d be Mr reliable.
It seems to be the consensus on here: he failed at Juve, failed at Bayern, is injury prone and average at best. Don’t you dare to use facts!
 

Nedved

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It seems to be the consensus on here: he failed at Juve, failed at Bayern, is injury prone and average at best. Don’t you dare to use facts!
Yep, he was generally very good at Juve even though his replacement Bremer has turned out to be even better.
 

United888

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And I said why in the initial post, you already responded that you don't expect injuries. From that point there is nothing to discuss about, I want depth and you don't. There is no way to reconcile these two positions and there is nothing more to say.
You just made a false claim that I don’t want depth, hence why I kept repeating these to you that I want depth that fits the manager’s, club’s and the league’s profile.

On contrary, you want anybody for squad depth as long as the player has multiple games experienced but ignoring the rest, which is part of the reason this season why manager has been accused not to have playing style because the manager keeps playing ’’squad depth’’ players who don’t fit the profile.

Since you don’t feel comfortable to continue the conversation, let’s move on. I will just pretend the idea of having squad depth that fits manager, the club, and the league’s profile wasn’t something you initially thought in this conversation so there is no point of me keep asking you about it.
 

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Is he injury prone? Looking at his stats, in his last 6 seasons he’s played 43, 42, 36, 39, 55 and 39 matches. By our standards he’d be Mr reliable.
It doesn’t sound like injury prone at all. I’m in :drool:

But then Shaw is labeled as injury prone and he played 40, 33, 47, 27, 47. :nervous:
 

sourdough satellite

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It seems to be the consensus on here: he failed at Juve, failed at Bayern, is injury prone and average at best. Don’t you dare to use facts!
I mean...
He is third choice at Bayern since his build up play isn’t as good as Kim‘s or Upa‘s. He mostly looks for sideways passes and is quite slow with them while the other two are far more vertical in their game.
I can see Bayern selling him, if they sign another CB.
Hardly a ringing endorsement from you, is it?
 

Red the Bear

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I still think he could become a very solid defender in the right set up , one that particularly covers for his shortcomings but we don't have that really at the moment so better stay away.

Also his time at the juve wasn't really a failure if we're being fair, he was being groomed to be bonucci and chiellini and he did show signs of being up to the task and in his last season was their best defender.

I don't think they would have sold him had it not been for their dire financial circumstances.
 

JPRouve

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You just made a false claim that I don’t want depth, hence why I kept repeating these to you that I want depth that fits the manager’s, club’s and the league’s profile.

On contrary, you want anybody for squad depth as long as the player has multiple games experienced but ignoring the rest, which is part of the reason this season why manager has been accused not to have playing style because the manager keeps playing ’’squad depth’’ players who don’t fit the profile.

Since you don’t feel comfortable to continue the conversation, let’s move on. I will just pretend the idea of having squad depth that fits manager, the club, and the league’s profile wasn’t something you initially thought in this conversation so there is no point of me keep asking you about it.
Since when an opinion is a false claim? And you can pretend whatever you want, I didn't ask for your approval nor do I care.
 

United888

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Since when an opinion is a false claim? And you can pretend whatever you want, I didn't ask for your approval nor do I care.
You accused me that i don’t want depth when I never say i don’t want depth, hence you made a false claim.
 

JPRouve

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You accused me that i don’t want depth when I never say i don’t want depth, hence you made a false claim.
I accused you of nothing and you literally wrote that you do not expect a 4th CB to play much which is why Kambwala is adequate. You believe that three CBs with actual experience is enough.

I don’t know what is your expectation of 4th choice centre back but my expectation is that 4th choice centre back shouldn’t be playing regularly and maximum is 540 minutes (equivalent to 6 starts) in the league and getting the chances to play in cup games. I don’t see the risk here especially without champions league football if we go as per the idea of signing two centre backs that means we will have 3 centre backs ahead of him who are likely above his level in term of experienced and potentially ability. He had shown good promising when he was trusted by starting and performed well in the game vs West Ham away, which was a high level opposition.
 

AjaxCunian

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He was excellent at Bayern last season, their best CB. Upamecano and Kim are just also wonderful CB's, and he has been struggling with injuries this season. Would massively improve us.

Also didn't fail at Juve at all.
 

United888

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I accused you of nothing and you literally wrote that you do not expect a 4th CB to play much which is why Kambwala is adequate. You believe that three CBs with actual experience is enough.
You did (look at your quote below). You made a false claim that I don’t want depth when I never say such a thing.

I said ideally is to sign 3 CB who fit the profile but if we can’t afford to sign 3rd one, then I would rather give the 4th option to Willy rather than giving it to someone who don’t fit the profile. You would rather to give it to anyone who has played multiple games even if the player don’t fit the profile.

And I said why in the initial post, you already responded that you don't expect injuries. From that point there is nothing to discuss about, I want depth and you don't. There is no way to reconcile these two positions and there is nothing more to say.
 

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So, we’re going to sell/replace Maguire: a player who’s flaws are that he’s not the quickest and who’s build up play isn’t top level. Whose lack of pace means we can’t play a high line. We’re looking to sell Maguire for £20m or so, taking a £60m L.

Then we’re going to spend £60m buying the younger, more injury prone, Dutch version of him who’s already been bombed out of two clubs we’re aiming to compete with, as he was easily and readily upgraded? Two clubs in weaker leagues at that. A player that’s already on very high wages and who will expect a pay rise to step down from where he is at the moment.

Can somebody make this make sense to me?
 

didz

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Some of the doubts made me realize that today many fans would be totally against the signings of players like Henry, Walter Samuel, Robben, Cambiasso, Sneijder, Van der Sar and many others.
It's probably a case of people feeling we've been burnt before by similar profiles over the last decade. Even in our heyday, United tended to do better when bringing in players on the up.

For what it's worth I think it's a bit mad that people seem to think that De Ligt, who has played something like 250 games for 3 different domestic and CL competitors at the age of 24, should be deemed not good enough for us.

That doesn't mean he'd be top of my list (largely due to the kind of money we'd likely have to pay both him and Bayern), but I still view him as a damn good defender.
 

JPRouve

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You did (look at your quote below). You made a false claim that I don’t want depth when I never say such a thing.

I said ideally is to sign 3 CB who fit the profile but if we can’t afford to sign 3rd one, then I would rather give the 4th option to Willy rather than giving it to someone who don’t fit the profile. You would rather to give it to anyone who has played multiple games even if the player don’t fit the profile.
If you are willing to reduce your depth then you don't want it, there is no two way about it, you are literally willing to sell a player and not replace him. And the profile argument is asinine, you don't know who the manager will be and you don't know what Kambwala is. You don't actually know if he has the profile today and you also don't know if he will have the profile in the future.

I'm not sure why you are pretending otherwise and crying about false claims, it's a perfectly acceptable position. I simply don't share it, I think that it's a risk and you stated that you don't see the risk.

And I forgot to mention that your initial option wasn't about adding a CB but replacing Lindelof with Kambwala. So again stop pretending that anyone made false claims.
 
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JPRouve

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One way to look at it is that the CB position has always been specialized (and now even more so) into two moulds (stoppers and sweepers). So the 4th choice ideally is the backup stopper / backup sweeper who can come in as soon as the first choice is injured.

There is no "3rd choice" - it's first choice / back up for both CB positions + some rotation fodder for cup games.
I missed that post. You are right.
 

Acrobat7

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I mean...

Hardly a ringing endorsement from you, is it?
Not everything is black and white. He can be third choice at Bayern behind two very good CBs and still not be a „failure“.
But I understand that a lot of people on here are only dealing in absolutes.
 

United888

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If you are willing to reduce your depth then you don't want it, there is no two way about it, you are literally willing to sell a player and not replace him. And the profile argument is asinine, you don't know who the manager will be and you don't know what Kambwala is. You don't actually know if he has the profile today and you also don't know if he will have the profile in the future.

I'm not sure why you are pretending otherwise and crying about false claims, it's a perfectly acceptable position. I simply don't share it, I think that it's a risk and you stated that you don't see the risk.

And I forgot to mention that your initial option wasn't about adding a CB but replacing Lindelof with Kambwala. So again stop pretending that anyone made false claims.
My initial option is that I would rather give Kambwala a chance than giving Lindelof a chance, I never say I don’t want us to sign 3rd CB. Why is this ’’initial option’’ has anything to do with me don’t want depth? By having Kambwala as 4th CB or sign 3rd CB to be 4th CB, we will still have 4 CB options so it’s not reducing the depth. We still have 2 LCB and 2 RCB.

Our manager right now is ten Hag. We want a rebuild. We are playing in the EPL right now. We have issue aerially this season by conceded set pieces. Lindelof proven doesn’t fit the profile.

We both share it differently, hence why I ask you why you chose the criteria of having multiple games in player’s career over the basis of the player doesn’t fit the manager and the league’s profile and the players has been proven 7 years not good enough? If you don’t want to answer it then I will respect your decision, let’s move on and stop the conversation. If you keep replying the conversation then you don’t want to move on and I expect an answer of the question for this discussion to progress, not creating new argument and a false claim.
 
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Ideally a top side should have 4 ssenior cbs and a top starlet as a plus one. Or and old head like Evans to cover rotation and injury. I thus expect United to sign about 3 cbs to add to Martinez. Because I feel if ETH stays Varane, Maguire and Lindeloff will all leave. I personally don't believe a De liggt will fall in the category of affordable for us start to sell well
 

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I think we will need to secure Tagliafico as well to ensure that he has smooth transition and has someone he's familiar with next to him in defence. He's now at Lyon who are struggling and won't make Europe so should be available for a small fee.
 

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I think we will need to secure Tagliafico as well to ensure that he has smooth transition and has someone he's familiar with next to him in defence. He's now at Lyon who are struggling and won't make Europe so should be available for a small fee.
Lyon have some very good prospects, can’t understand why they’re struggling so much.
 

daba

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Ideally a top side should have 4 ssenior cbs and a top starlet as a plus one. Or and old head like Evans to cover rotation and injury. I thus expect United to sign about 3 cbs to add to Martinez. Because I feel if ETH stays Varane, Maguire and Lindeloff will all leave. I personally don't believe a De liggt will fall in the category of affordable for us start to sell well
I can see two happening in the summer as I feel like 3 is too much, but another CB addition will likely be needed the following summer in 2025.

Most likely we’ll keep Lindelof or Maguire with one of them and Varane moving on due to his wages / reliability. I don’t watch any Bayern games but does feel like De Ligt is being underrated by some on here. However his high wages and injury record, doesn’t stack up with the way we look to be rebuilding the squad, as there seems to be a concerted effort to get rid of high earners atm.
 

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This guy still has the potential to become a rocksolid leader in defensive for the best teams in Europe, though admittedly his development has stagnated /been less steep than I (and most) thought it would.. I hardly see him play anymore since he went to Bayern, but I expected him to thrive there from day 1. Dont know what went wrong and whether it's all down to injuries.. At Juve I thought his stint has been massively underrated by most.
 

PieCrust

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Hope not. Injury issues and Bayern, similar to Madrid, rarely sell good players without some sort of catch. Writing on the wall of a disaster signing.
 

tomaldinho1

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Depends on his body to be honest. He looks to have injury issues, going off a quick google it also looks to be a reoccurring knee problem and he's a big lad with a heavy frame. Would avoid unless it's a free/very cheap one.

We need more pace in the CBs to complement Martinez.
 
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Ideally a top side should have 4 senior cbs and a top starlet as a plus one. Or and older head like Evans to cover rotation and injury. I thus expect United to sign about 3 cbs to add to Martinez. Because I feel if ETH stays Varane, Maguire and Lindeloff will all leave
I can see two happening in the summer as I feel like 3 is too much, but another CB addition will likely be needed the following summer in 2025.

Most likely we’ll keep Lindelof or Maguire with one of them and Varane moving on due to his wages / reliability. I don’t watch any Bayern games but does feel like De Ligt is being underrated by some on here. However his high wages and injury record, doesn’t stack up with the way we look to be rebuilding the squad, as there seems to be a concerted effort to get rid of high earners atm.
Sensible take. Personally I'm convinced Lindelof will jump ship looking for play time. I feel we won't renew Varane and if ETH stays. I'll be suprised if Maguire stays to be cover. Thats why I see us recruiting 3.
 
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MegadrivePerson

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Not everything is black and white. He can be third choice at Bayern behind two very good CBs and still not be a „failure“.
But I understand that a lot of people on here are only dealing in absolutes.
What's going on with De Ligt?

Losing his place to Eric Dier of all people is a real low point!
 

Acrobat7

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Not a very good look to be benched behind Dier of all people in such a big game.
It was definitely strange if(!) he truly was completely fit. De Ligt's passing isn't spectacular, but we are comparing him to Dier and not prime Hummels...