Well spotted.
Mauricio Pochettino: Win or Bust?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
I don't know what you are replying to but I don't think it was my post.
United fans saying they'd have only 1 or 2 Spurs players in there team, really? Their entire back 4, that played against City is better than anything at United (or any of the rest of England too). Yes, Rose is certainly better than Shaw (who progress hasn't been stunted for one reason and another) and no Bailly isn't as good as the Belgians. In holding midfield they have far more energy with either Dier or Wanyama and dspite their ability on the ball than anything you guys have. Their wingers are fast, direct and exciting, having watched Martial the last few months of yours only Rashford would be competing with them for a starting spot. Lingaard, Depay have shown little to nothing and Mkhi hasn't settled at all so far but I have a feeling this might change. Even though he sits deeper Erikson is far more creative than Rooney and a better all rounder than Mata though I am quite the Mata fan.
Honestly if I had to pick an 11 or both teams. Only DDG, Zlatan, Rashford and Pogba as he looks to be settling would get in the team. If it was a 22 man squad it would probably even up a bit but its hard to argue with anything else.
Pochettino has developed and bought some brilliant young players, added experience where necessary and spent wisely. I mean he bought one of the best CB pairings in world football for any of the following.
Honestly if I had to pick an 11 or both teams. Only DDG, Zlatan, Rashford and Pogba as he looks to be settling would get in the team. If it was a 22 man squad it would probably even up a bit but its hard to argue with anything else.
Pochettino has developed and bought some brilliant young players, added experience where necessary and spent wisely. I mean he bought one of the best CB pairings in world football for any of the following.
- 2/3 what you guys payed for Bailly
- almost the same price you guys payed for Jones
- or Smalling
- one leg of Mangala
- less than half a John Stones.
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Based on more than 7 games, are you suggesting that Son and Lamela are better than Martial? Also Dier and Wanyama better than Herrera on the ball? Those guys couldn't outpass Slovenia. They are slow on the thinking side.
I'm not familiar with their finances either. I gather information from the internet and from what is posted on this forum. One argument i keep reading is that Arsenal have the ability to significantly raise their transfer/wages budget but they choose not to because something like that conflicts with Wenger's philosophy. I'm not sure if i can buy into that. I could a few years back but after a decade of underachieving there have to be other issues too. I'll wait and see how Arsene will deal with Ozil and Sanchez's contract renewals because with both Liverpool and Spurs on the rise, they'll have more competition for a top four spot.
I'm saying this because reaching the highest level of competitiveness and staying there isn't all about new stadiums, buying cheap and selling at a very high price and helping talented players reach their potential. There's more to it than we think and at some point you have to take risks. By that i mean that you have to spend money with the hope that you'll make the club bigger and wealthier and therefore increase its fan-base and its overall value.
Ferguson took those risks in the transfer market and in contract negotiations many times throughout his career but the hype around the Class of '92 kind of creates a misleading picture of his dealings in the market. When he knew that he had to spend big, he spent big. At some point Spurs will have to take similar risks: Restructure their wage budget so that their key players will stay at the club and pay money to buy "title winning" experience and mentality. And of course that's the only way of keeping Pochettino at their club. This isn't the Dutch or the Portuguese league where you can afford selling your best players all the time and generally not worry about buying ready made solutions. At some point they'll have to choose if they'll take that risk or if they'll settle with staying at Arsenal's level.
Herrera sits on the bench watching Fellaini and he's not even a footballer.
As a United fan I almost completely agree with this. Very fair points indeed.
Guys, this isn't just 7 games, have you seen last season? Spurs doesn't just have top players in all positions, they are also a team. Which we haven't been for a long time now. Not even this season so far, although there seems to developments.
The only nitpick I have with your points is that I don't think Lamela and Eriksen are able to put in a season worth of top performances. But maybe I just haven't watched them long enough. If they can, Spurs are title contenders again. Either way, top 4 minimum.
Nobody's arguing that they're not a good team or that they are not much better than us atm. The tread is about Pochettino and his current relationship with Spurs. Are they ready to be considered serious and consistent title contenders and should he be judged with the bar set that high or is it the other way around and he'll be looking to leave, if the opportunity arises, for a club like Real Madrid or (let's say) Chelsea where the money's always floating because he will feel that he has peaked with this squad.
I think that he's done a tremendous job at Spurs but if i accept as fact that they're full of top class players, then reaching 70 points by completely neglecting all cup competitions means that he hasn't done a good job after all. Spurs fans can't have their cake and eat it too. It has to be one or the other. And you can't use comparisons with United of the last three seasons to prove that you're the next big thing in English football. We're still a fecking mess of a club.
I rather think it was the mega-wages on offer. Thursday night football and a club that's been collapsing since Fergie left doesn't provide much "aura" if you ask me.
Poch is a brilliant coach and spurs has some brilliant players and they have huge potential - all well said period.
We were in CL last year and spurs weren't. We won the FA cup last year and would like to know what did they win . So until they start winning things regularly, its bit premature to compare them with any successful club. Its just like Arsenal fans saying every year that they have some brilliant young players.
Lets talk at the end of season to see where are we again !
We were in CL last year and spurs weren't. We won the FA cup last year and would like to know what did they win . So until they start winning things regularly, its bit premature to compare them with any successful club. Its just like Arsenal fans saying every year that they have some brilliant young players.
Lets talk at the end of season to see where are we again !
Its all part of the "package"
As I said if Martial finds any sort of form he's in easily. But atm he hasn't. Herrera is massively overrated on the Caf imho, a good solid player but imho I'd have either above him. What he has on the ball they have in other area's but again a tight call. I find it funny the bashing Fellaini gets and the praise Herrera recieves to be honest when now two of the most famous managers in the world are opting for the former. For whats it worth I'd take Herrera over Fellaini but neither bring to a team what Dier or Wanyama do imho. I'd have them there for defensive reasons with Pogba beside them and Erikson breaking forward but of course the post is just my opinion, one of many. Lamela as the other guy who quoted me is patchy but atm he looks a far better footballer than Martial (who'll probably destroy Liverpool Monday to prove me wrong.)
My point mainly was you could weight a team heavily towards Spurs though 7-4 in what I called originally, 6-5 if Martial finds form is a big difference to those who said they wouldn't have 2 players in the United one. Again my opinion but I think that each of the top few teams have strengths and weakness that other teams could benefit from. For example stick Aguero and KBD in the Spurs side and they are easily the best team in the league. Stick Spurs back 4 with City and they are much, much more solid (though a change of system would be necessary). So on each team has at least 4 players that would walk into the other top teams imho, Arsenal and City probably being strong in the same area's but some of those would be tight calls to make.
I think it's only fair to take into consideration the situation we are coming out of with Van Gaal. Whatever he was trying to do he ended up sucking the life out of our squad. It takes some time to get over that.
Point being while it's fair to argue that a combined XI might feature more Spurs than United right now, I think we have better quality in most areas of the pitch. This time next year, when Jose has had his time with them, I think we will see a different picture
Point being while it's fair to argue that a combined XI might feature more Spurs than United right now, I think we have better quality in most areas of the pitch. This time next year, when Jose has had his time with them, I think we will see a different picture
The bolded isn't correct. Much of the real financial situation was hidden. But retrospective reports state that after the initial stadium move, which cost far more than was expected, it was difficult to finance the players wages. When asked why he didn't bid for Hazard Wenger replied 'I have to make a 20 million profit yearly'. We know Wenger didn't want to sell RVP or Nasri but Kroenke forced the sales through rather than see them leave for free. We know Wenger's new mantra after Arsenal's new commercial deals is 'we don't have to sell our best players anymore'. Well it's obvious that implies we had to in the past when we broken even (or made a profit) in the transfer market for a decade.
Now it maybe easier for Spurs to finance a stadium and stay competitive with the great PL revenues, I don't know.
As for 'taking risks by spending more like Fergie', well Fergie could do that because you were the richest club in the country, Spurs won't be able to offer the same kind of investment.
Nah, a lot of clubs can offer money but United are a special club for players who grew up in 90s. That will change if we are poor for decades but not with mete 3 years of mediocrity.
So which other Prem clubs offered Pogba £290k per week wages? Come to that, which other Prem clubs pay that sum to any of their players?
City is at 220k for Toure and Aguero respectively. Hazard earns 200k a week at Chelsea. I'm confident both clubs could offer Pogba 300k a week with the new TV deal.
He left Juve to join us. He turned down PSG and could have moved to Real Madrid if he dug his heels in.
I presume City have a pretty hefty wage budget and I think i saw a stat previously that has chelsea ahead of us in wages paid.
We have the money in the first place because we're a 'special' club or whatever you want to call it
Pogba was a very expensive signing only United could pull off in England (maybe City). Zlatan and Mkhitaryan a lot of clubs could afford, Zlatan especially turned down more money to play here.
Pogba left Juventus who were paying him a lot too. If he did not want to join United he could stay or wait for Real Madrid to put a bid. He came here because he wanted to.
There's a 32% difference between £290k and £220k ... and more than £18m extra over a 5 year contract. Moreover, Aguero is the best striker in the Prem, and Toure, when he was offered the contract, was far more of a midfield powerhouse than Pogba has ever shown so far.
The summary is that no other Prem club has ever so far - by some margin - offered any player so much money. So it's hardly surprising that Pogba signed for you - and hard to make the case that he did so because of the club's "aura".
The point went way past you. Other clubs were capable of offering large sums of money before the influence of this season's tv deals played any role. If City was able to pay Yaya 220k several years ago and Chelsea was able to offer Hazard 200k a week, they surely have the ability to offer him 300k now under different financial circumstances.
The salary is hardly the only reason Pogba signed for us. We're one of the biggest clubs in the world commercially due to the huge fan base, so for the recognition of his name, it hardly gets any bigger than this.
On top of that, we have one of the most accomplished managers in the history of the game and Pogba once played for us, so he still has ties to the club in some way.
Money can be had in several others places, so while it's not some aura bullshit, it's also not as simple as us just being able to offer a high salary. Money gets thrown around everywhere.
----------------------Ibra-----------------
Martial------------------------Mkhitaryan
-----------Pogba----------Alli---------------
-------------------Dembele-----------------
Shaw-------------------------------Valencia
----------Vertonghen----Alderweild--------
--------------------De Gea------------------
Seems like the first XI you'd give a go if you were just trying to get the best players out there in roles in which they've played very well, even though it sees Dembele in a somewhat unfamiliar role. Might have to end up playing someone else at DM (Herrera or Wanyama). Then immediately go out and buy a RB who knows how to play the position and can be trusted.
I think Pochettino is getting some fine performances out of some extremely average players with good athleticism that makes them useful for his style (Rose, Walker, Wanyama) and he gets players like Dembele and Lamela to work harder than other managers seem to. I remember posting he would be a good choice to replace Moyes if we couldn't get a proper feck off star like Klopp or Pep based on how strong all his metrics/peripherals/advanced stats/whatever the feck you call them at Southampton were.
Mkhitaryan is a fine player and a level above Spurs' wingers. He'll show it.
Think he's a quality manager. Hope he's in the running whenever Mourinho decides to move on.
Fair enough, as i mentioned i am not an expert on Spurs or Asrenal's finances so i'll take your word for it. It's vital that you keep both Sanchez and Ozil at the club instead of starting from scratch again.
As for Ferguson, i was referring more to the Spurs fans who believe that they will build a title winning side only by developing youngsters and buying value for money players. It usually takes more than that and at some point you have to offer bigger wages and pay higher transfer fees. You'll have to take the risk of giving Kane the contract he wants instead of selling him for 100 million in order to buy 5 new Sons. The last step that will take you to the highest level of competitiveness and help you stay there is always about quality over quantity.
Don't mistake being a well set up team to the quality of players. In a well set up team an average player can play well, a good payer can play very well. Also don't underestimate the effects of being in a badly set up team, again a great player can play averagely and a average player can play poorly. You need to be able t separate the player from the set up. If you think the Spurs players are purely better fair enough we disagree massively, but your Martial comments suggest you are basing this on form, for me a player s either good enough skill set wise or they aren't. For example compare how Sterling played for City last year vs how he's playing this year? Largely the same teammates but a different manager, he's better coached and he is in a side that creates much more chances a dominates more. His movement s better, he recycles the ball better deeper, he knows when to be aggressive and when to keep it. his skill set hans't changed his environment has. I'm wary of fans who's opinions on players flip flop with form.
When I say I would only take two of their players I'm talking about the skill set they would bring to the team and what we need. Vertonghen has been very good beside Alderweireld, but looking at his skill set alone he's slow, isn't the best anticipator of danger. I wouldn't take him over Smalling or Bailly despite how good he is on the ball I would prefer to pair either with Alderweireld than take Vertonghen too. Ask me who is a better defensive unit I would say Spurs, Danny Rose over Luke Shaw or Daley Blind is a joke to me. He's an average player congrats to him on getting this far, technically average, defensively average, going forward average. Walker I would take over Valencia but for me that's not saying much. So while they have a better unit breaking down their players I would take Walker and Alderweireld and feel both would offer skill sets that improve our team.
Dier and Wanyama. Destroyers who don't offer much on the ball. Wanyama is more mobile and robust but Schneidelin was better than him as Southampton and I haven't seen anything from Wanyama to say he's a better player. Now if you ask me who is in better FORM. I will go with Wanyama but again looking at skillets, destroyers who are average on the ball we have a couple of those already here so I wouldn't add either Dier or Wanyma to my team. As a B2B midfielder Wanyama doesn't have the quality we need. Demebele I'm taking every day, strong, mobile, good technically, hard to get past, pressure resistant, comfortable in the first phase, he's great and I actually think he isn't playing to his full potential. I am taking him everyday, he brings qualities we need in our midfield so I'm taking him everyday. They don't really have any fast direct wingers so I'm not sure where you got them from I guess you are counting Son who is good a forward/striker but again dribbler, goal threat, quick, direct, we already have Martial, Rashford, Mkhitaryan etc. who can execute that role for us so why would I take him? Lamela and Eriksen are average speed, neither is particularly direct, both are good technicians who like to try and take their time on the ball. One thing stopping Spurs getting to that next level for me is the lack of pace in their attack. Delle Alli he's good, not the cleverest but great end product, good technically, get's about the pitch, those are great qualities but why would I take him for us? He isn't starting ahead of Pogba or Mata. Kane is a sharpshooter, obsessed with scoring goals. I would have him here. Good all round player.
So when I say I'm only taking one or two don't think it doesn't mean I don't rate their players it just means that I'm only taking those who I feel have a skill set that improves our team. Why would Dele Alli perform how he performs for Pochettino in an LVG team which is set up completely different and requires different qualities? or in a Mourinho team where he would be played deeper most likely. Fans don't consider roles and skill sets when comparing players. Same problem the England team has shoehorning players into roles which aren't the ones which got them in the England team and which there skill sets don't suit.
Are Spurs a better set up team than us? Most definitely. Do they have many better footballers than us? No way.
Based on your post it's not just fans but your managers as well, including Mourinho, if all your players are so good why is he having so many problems and why does such a limited player like Fellaini play so often?
I actually laughed out loud when I read Alli wouldn't get a game over Juan Mata or that Daley Blind is better than Rose. Luke Shaw is already a very good LB and has the potential to be even more but Daley Blind a better LB than Rose, talk about watching your players through rose tinted spectacles, he's absolutely bang average. I don't care what position he's playing the way he got done for City's first goal at OT was an absolute joke, I actually felt sorry for him. Apparently Poch and Vertonghen fell out about Vertonghens defending for Monaco's first goal at Wembley, and good on Poch for that. But blimey if he had been managing Blind he would probably have chucked his boots in the bin and we would never have seen him again, yet you call Rose's defending average?
I have to say whilst we still have a lot to improve on I don't find myself looking at Utd's players and wishing too many of them were playing for us. We are greater than the sum of our parts due to our manager, right now at Utd you are the sum of your parts and your parts don't appear to be that much better than anybody else's, but less than City's and Arsenal's whilst Liverpool and Spurs remains to be seen.
I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, but the high-lighted above is way off the mark. Herrera and Pogba's technique, one touch passing and ability on the ball, are several levels above either Dier or Wanyama. The Fellaini argument doesn't really hold water either. One of the main reasons Herrera has been over looked in favour of Fellaini is because we didn't have any kind of physical presence in midfield and he was seen as our answer to that, originally by Moyes, then seemed to be our main outlet for pressure under LVG so was suddenly undroppable (this was an LVG failiing, not Herreras).
Herrera wasn't used as much as he should have been by LVG because he was too creative and took risks, something which Louis didn't like (Herrera himself has alluded to this in interviews). Since Jose has come in, he's dropped Fellaini in favour of Herrera, after giving him a chance because of the spaniard's form when coming off the bench. That form, it must be said, has earned him his first call up to an already star studded spain midfield.
The reason there;s such a "love in" on the CAF for Herrera is because we watch him, week in, week out and can see what a fantastically complete midfielder he is. He simply hasn't had the right system to play to his strengths by previous managers. And as we know, without the right system, even the best players will look poor (see Dier, Ali for england).
I don't think much needs to be said about Pogba being so much better than either of the afforementioned. If you disagree then I can only assume you havn't watched many man utd games this season, or Juve the last few seasons, and stick soley to match of the day (which is fine, why would you watch our games in full).
I don’t think that this season it is a case of win or bust just yet. Obviously after last season expectations are higher but I think most spurs fans seem happy that their club is moving in the right direction so he has a little leeway. If they can get quarter finals of champions league and re-qualify then that will be good progress.
Out of interest what would the Tottenham fans on here see as progress for this season?
Out of interest what would the Tottenham fans on here see as progress for this season?
After a promising start you've resorted to usual wummery. Blind as ''bang average'', he's better than Rose, and by a long shot too. The only good one of yours is Ali, even Eriksen is a uninspiring midfielder.
Utd are the ''sum of our parts'', despite having a new manager and blah, blah, blah. We won't improve? Of course we will, we will sweep right past the mighty Spurs, winner of nothing, and losers of everything.
Oops that was worded wrong I meant despite their ability on the ball. Good spot, no wonder everyone is questioning that post. Edited it to make it right.
Rose: 8 goals + 10 assists.
Shaw: 0 goals + 2 assists.
If Rose is "average" going forward, what does that make Shaw?
The point is, none of these clubs, despite (in your own words) being capable of offering these massive wages, did offer a wage comparable to what he got at Utd, at least to my knowledge. It's not as if he turned down similar wages elsewhere to pursue his dream of playing under Mou at Old Trafford. If (having agreed a fee with Juve) Pep at City offered to match or better his wages but Pogba still chose Utd you would have a point - but he didn't so you don't.
Indeed, it may be asked why there wasn't more competition from these moneyed clubs for his signature. Truth is, you overpaid massively on both the fee and his wages in order to secure him. I've no problem with that (that's more for Utd fans to dwell on how their club's budget is spent), but let's not pretend it was anything other than money that saw him end up at Utd.
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Consolidation of another top 4 finish + making it out of the CL group stages and going at least one step beyond .
If you ignore all the reports then yes there wasn't any competition for his signature. Madrid, City, Chelsea all tried to sign him this summer and before.
It's funny with Poch, I really rate him and think he's going to be a very good manager. However, given the supposed quality of his squad why isn't there more pressure on him to win the league? There's so much talk of potential regarding the Spurs squad, but Kane is already good enough to lead the line and win the league, Alli seems good enough, Eriksen is probably as good as he's going to be. Dier and Wanyama/Dembele are all technically average but fit into the way Poch wants to play perfectly.
I don't rate his fullbacks at all but nobody in the league bar Arsenal seems to have decent ones. Their centre backs are arguably the best in the league and they have a great keeper. To me that squad should be competing for the title and even winning it, if Poch finishes outside the top 2 with all the hype and praise he gets then he's failed this season for me.
I don't rate his fullbacks at all but nobody in the league bar Arsenal seems to have decent ones. Their centre backs are arguably the best in the league and they have a great keeper. To me that squad should be competing for the title and even winning it, if Poch finishes outside the top 2 with all the hype and praise he gets then he's failed this season for me.
And what reports talked about offering £90 million and £290k a week in wages? I'm sure there were a number of clubs sniffing around him (as with dozens of players) until they saw the prices quoted.
I'm not saying no other clubs were interested in him, just not at that price.
Thats a fine team too but imho Spurs fullbacks are not just in a better system, they are currently better players too. Martial if he finds his game is in easily and Mkhi too but as of yet he's proved nothing in England. Thats why I'd have Rashford on the right. But that team would be just as good, on form possibly better.
Very good post, the kind of discussion I like.
But I think theres a major underrating of this current Spurs side everywhere, not just here but everywhere cause they are Spurs and people tend to dismiss them. They've built a find side imho. I don't think its just the system.
I find the likes of Rose underrated especially and Shaw while he has bucketloads of potential overrated and I'd have loved to see him at City. Rose is and has been more consistent while Shaw hasn't developed as much as expected because admittedly of injury. Shaw has time on his side but for me Rose is just simply the better player now. He works harder, positions himself better and is as useful going forward. What I'm saying is Rose is a good solid LB with no weakness, Shaw as of yet isn't that unfortunately despite all his potential.
Walker gets the edge over Valenica for me because Valencia despite his attributes is not and never will be a top right back, a player who suffers from his own versatility imho, jack of all trades and master of none if you will. Still a good footballer. Also I currently thing RB is the weakest position in the Prem in general with Bellerin being the only real top one in the league followed by Azpilicueta and Coleman none of whom are top class so we agree on that.
Centrebacks I think we disagreed hugely on this one. V&A are just better centrebacks than anything you have, Bailly again is potential and solid. Smalling had a couple of good seasons protected by Van Gaal having 70% of the ball and 8 defensive players and Blind I just don't rate at CB at all. Theres not a huge difference between Vertonghen and Bailly but there is experience and ability on the ball, I would say Bailly's a bit quicker but Vertonghen is better positionally and a little cleverer as one would expect as he's older and has far more games under his belt.
Dier and Wanyama are destroyers and not great on the ball but they are effective in what they do. Yes Schneiderlan looked better for a year or year and a half but Wanyama has been consistent for years. He's the perfect destroyer imho, the solid 7 out of 10 players who does all the dirty work and doesn't really get noticed unless he scores. I've rated him hightly since his Celtic days so for about 5 years he's been solid. They might not have the qualities United need though I'd argue either one in a midfield 2 with Pogba would go along way to suring you guys up but if I had to pick a team based off both it would be one of those two who'd be doing the sitting over anyone at United. Dembele is good but I didn't have him in the team simply because I couldn't find a place for him.
You guys have pace on the wings alright but Martial doesn't look a shadow of the player I thought he was and tbh I don't know if its form or just that he put in a really good showing on the back of his transfer added to the fact he was a shining light in a poor season. He looks like he has all the physical attributes and I hope he bounces back. Erikson for me is top class in the no.8 position. He's not an athlete but he still covers his fair share of ground and doesn't waste the ball. My reasoning for him in midfield was a deeper lying Rooney role and bar Pogba United just don't have anyone as creative. So he plays in the 3.
The wingers I completely understand your point of view but I think its just we differ on what and how our teams would play I suppose. I'd like a more creative guy on one side ala Lamela and I just like Rashfords ability to get on the end of things on the other end. They could easily be replaced by Martial and Mkhi at some stage, Martial almost certainly but Mkhi has proven nothing at United so far and probably needs time to settle.
I agree with some of your comments on system but I genuinely think these Spurs players are good enough to play in most systems. Alot of people think they are made look good by the system but I disagree and think they are good players, playing in a good system. All I can say is if I had to bring 22 players to City, I'd probably take as many Spurs players as United, Chelsea or any other top club.
Sorry I had to unquote half your post but I was over 1000 characters which I just found out is the limit.
That doesn't make any sense. There was competition for the player and we won bidding war. Simple as that.
'Won the bidding war' = you paid more than any other club were prepared to. It's not as if other clubs offered similar or more money but Pogba's heart was set on Utd, as some here are suggesting.
What I'm saying is pretty straightforward, particularly in the context of the post I initially replied to, and the related posts above that. I'll leave others to read them if they want, but I won't bang on about it here because this is a Spurs thread!