Yeah agree. We could really need someone like Carrick to our team.
McFred is the worst midfield 2 of the PL’s top 10 teams
- Thread starter RashyForPM
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A Carrick in our team would revolutionise our midfield. Last year after lockdown, we had our best run for a while with a midfield trio of Matic, Pogba and Bruno and I think Matic was probably the key player that just made it work. A Carrick would be even better, though
If you want people to engage in rational debate it's best not to have such a hyperbolic thread and thread title.
It's a topic that warrants discussion for sure. But people won't bother engaging in a meaningful manner due to the hyperbole.
It's a topic that warrants discussion for sure. But people won't bother engaging in a meaningful manner due to the hyperbole.
can you add IMO in your title?
The Rock once said...
"IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK!"
The Rock once said...
"IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK!"
The thread is right, problem is people don't really seem to understand what the midfield really costs us. They see Fred and mctominay running around and think their doing something, yet blame our defence or attack for poor games, when the actual cause of all our problems in games when we face decent opposition is the midfield 2. 2 "defensive"players that can't play a holding role.
Watch the big games and see how easy it is for the midfield of those other teams to hold possession by being able to maintain balance shielding the ball or playing quick one twos to get out if tight spots.
Watch the big games and see how easy it is for the midfield of those other teams to hold possession by being able to maintain balance shielding the ball or playing quick one twos to get out if tight spots.
Fred managed to showcase his best and worst traits in a single game. Some feat
Worst in terms of creativity, probably. But they are solid defensively
Midfields change, and they’re just one option that’s usually very reliable. It’s nonsense to compare them to the strongest midfield 2 of other teams (who don’t all play a 2 just like we don’t for starters??) when you’ve not used our strongest two. Compare Fred-McTominay to fecking Elneny-Ceballos or something?
Fred is a dynamo. One of those players that you miss when he is not playing. Hi energy is excellent in midfield. He shold shoot more.
Sometimes he does it within a single minute
The thread title is a hyperbole, but at the same time yeah, they don't work well anymore. One of them is enough and at the moment I will prefer Scott. Pogba will solve us a lot of problems now that he's back.
Fred is just not good enough on the ball to warrant being a starter long-term for a club like United. He's such a liability in possession as he has shown frequently over the last several matches he has played. I appreciate the energy and defensive abilities he brings to the game, which is why I still believe he has a role to play as a squad player in certain matches, but to take the next step, the club will need to find a CDM with legs that can possess the ball better. I think McTominay has shown that he has the room to grow and add to his game so I would expect him to get better in possession over the next couple of seasons.
Why are you folks summoning me?
It’s an observation. I already said, I rate Fred and McT individually, but when they play together, we lack a lot of attacking impetus.
We have done well when both have started together, I think it's more to do with the kind of games. They are good when it's all chaos, when the game is tactical, methodical they struggle. Usually Serie A teams are very good at it.
That’s what I’m saying with this thread, but many people can’t seem to understand that. People are reacting as if I didn’t specify that I rated McFred as individual players. However, if they play together, chances are we’ll keep a clean sheet, which is mightily important, but chances also are that we’ll create far less chances than we need to. Same with Matic + Fred when they play together. That is why I feel we need a Pogba + new DM midfield next year, or the masses of 0-0 draws will just continue.
Will we ever win the league with a McFred midfield? No. Do we have a far enhanced chance of winning the league with a Pogba + new DM midfield, or even Pogba + one of McFred? Definitely, but some people don’t think so, which I think is...pretty weird. I thought it was obvious.
Spoken like you only watch Manchester united games. Kovacic and Kante have been horrible for most of the season, don't even get me started on the arsenal midfield. Oh how about the Liverpool midfield, without Trent and Robertsons creativity they have been average. Is there a need to even mention Sissoko and Hoijbier or however you spell his name?
Their biggest issue is the lack of technical ability, eye for a pass and general passing ability. All things midfielders should excel in. I rate their work rate and energy but they can be incredibly frustrating and I do wonder whether we need both of them on the pitch. The things they do... One player should be enough to get that done.
I watch every single game I can, whether it’s Burnley vs WBA or . Since Tuchel arrived, Kovacic and Kante have been excellent. Pool’s main deep midfielders, Fabinho and Henderson, have played in defence this season.
Also, you definitely don’t watch Spurs games, because if you did, you’d know that Ndombele-Hojbjerg was their main pairing.
Here's a question, do people think Paul Scholes was better than Pogba defensively? I don't think he was. Yet Ole has reservations about playing Pogba in a two man midfield in big games whereas Fergie wouldn't even consider leaving out Scholes. I guess you could argue that the sum total impact Scholes had in midfield (tempo control, passing range, movement off the ball etc.) was so great, he was still a no brainer to play despite his defensive shortcomings. Another view could be that it comes down to whether their midfield partner is good enough to carry the defensive load. In Scholes's case, Keane and Carrick were, whereas right now we don't have anyone of that elk. I'm inclined to subscribe to the latter view, meaning, if we can get Pogba the right defensive partner, one who can not only carry the defensive workload but is also able to contribute to our tempo control and in decent on the ball, Ole can play Pogba in a midfield two irrespective of the opposition. The big Ifs of course are getting him to sign a new contract and staying injury free.
Coming back to this thread, of course it's an OTT title. No, McFred isn't the worse in the top 10 but it is arguably the worst in the top 4 and is also worse than Liverpool's midfield. However, this isn't a fair comparison, McFred isn't our first choice midfield in most games, they just happen to play alot because Pogba has missed a large amount of games due to injuries.
I think right now, Pogba/Fred is our best midfield in terms of balance. Simply because Fred is better than McTominay defensively though I don't think the choice is as obvious as it could be because of Fred's deficiencies on the ball. The best version of Pogba/Fred was Vs Seville last year where we controlled the midfield and game against a good footballing side, unfortunately missed chances and 2 defensive lapses cost us the game.
Hopefully we can get a better progressive DM next season to partner Pogba so we can have McFred as more than capable backups. We could even interchange with Pogba/Fred and McTominay/new DM. Either way, hopefully we'll rarely see McFred again in important games.
Coming back to this thread, of course it's an OTT title. No, McFred isn't the worse in the top 10 but it is arguably the worst in the top 4 and is also worse than Liverpool's midfield. However, this isn't a fair comparison, McFred isn't our first choice midfield in most games, they just happen to play alot because Pogba has missed a large amount of games due to injuries.
I think right now, Pogba/Fred is our best midfield in terms of balance. Simply because Fred is better than McTominay defensively though I don't think the choice is as obvious as it could be because of Fred's deficiencies on the ball. The best version of Pogba/Fred was Vs Seville last year where we controlled the midfield and game against a good footballing side, unfortunately missed chances and 2 defensive lapses cost us the game.
Hopefully we can get a better progressive DM next season to partner Pogba so we can have McFred as more than capable backups. We could even interchange with Pogba/Fred and McTominay/new DM. Either way, hopefully we'll rarely see McFred again in important games.
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I think most people would agree they are not the long term answer. But your thread is over the top so naturally you received over the top answers as well.
They have their uses, but OP is right. They offer zero attacking treath, which means all attacking responsibility falls on Bruno. If hes marked, then our build up is forced out wide 10/10 times
I don't think the OP is far off the truth. People laughing at Xhaka, Kovacic and Kante but the reality is I doubt Arsenal or Chelsea would swap them for Fred or McT if given the chance. As a pairing they are towards the bottom of the top 10 teams.
McTominay has scored 7 times this season
Ok fair enough, attacking treath was the wrong term, but in terms of build up play they offer next to nothing
United/Caftards must be the most embarrassing fans of all the club fans. Moaning and whinging when we lose.... or even when we win.
RAWK used to be deluded about the quality of their players. Here, we seem to just hate our own players.
Mind-boggling. Constantly moaning & bitching.
RAWK used to be deluded about the quality of their players. Here, we seem to just hate our own players.
Mind-boggling. Constantly moaning & bitching.
Why you starting it when the game is on
I don’t think their roles are necessarily wrong, just that they have some weaknesses that make us suffer both when going forward and when we want to keep control in possession. Somehow people tend to confuse these weaknesses with being too defensive. But there are midfielder who can offer protection and still have good technique and passes. However it will be difficult finding such players who also have McFred’s work capacity.
Over the top would be when people called Lingard a Championship player.
Let’s take a look at the top 10 of the PL this season, and their two holding/box to box midfielders:
1) City - Gundogan and KdB/Rodri
2) United - McFred
3) Leicester - Ndidi and Tielemans
4) Chelsea - Kovacic and Kante
5) West Ham - Rice and Soucek
6) Pool - Fabinho and Henderson
7) Everton - Doucoure and Allan
8) Spurs - Ndombele and Hojbjerg
9) Villa - McGinn and Douglas Luiz
10) Arsenal - Xhaka and Partey
Honestly, the people who disagree with me, the only reasons they can come up with us ‘over the top’, ‘nonsense’, ‘the irony’ ‘Kovacic and Kante
‘ but with no explanation. The biggest belter is ‘we’re second’ like football is a 2 man game. No, we’re second because we have a very good team in essentially every position bar the centre of midfield.If any of those midfield pairings were to transfer here in exchange of McFred, would people really be able to say with a straight face that they wouldn’t take them because they wouldn’t improve us, both offensively and defensively? I don’t think so, not at all. They are good players individually, but together, they stifle us so much. Genuinely don’t understand what some people are seeing, clearly not much for most, because they aren’t giving good reasons. That JJ12 for example was simply here to derail the thread last night.
Because I noticed it during the game. Is there a rule which says ‘no starting threads during games’?
Just find it odd that's all
Or anything to do with fred or mctominay of course
You can’t watch the game and post and read comments at the same time. I’ve popped in the match day thread a few times whichjj be obviously then means eyes are not on the football, yet the thread is full of people moaning about the football they see for 90 minutes. Quite a feat
When Pogba is out. When he's in, it's a great midfield. We just need more width.
Personally, i think McTominay is the weaker of the two as he is supposed to be the more progressive player to link defence and attack and he is not the best at that. Fred is there to cover ground, chase people down and recycle the ball, and he excels at it.
Here's an answer.
Scholes played in front of excellent back 4s (some of the best defenders the UK has seen in 30 years). That's why.
You honestly think McGinn and Luiz is a better midfield two?Over the top would be when people called Lingard a Championship player.
Let’s take a look at the top 10 of the PL this season, and their two holding/box to box midfielders:
1) City - Gundogan and KdB/Rodri
2) United - McFred
3) Leicester - Ndidi and Tielemans
4) Chelsea - Kovacic and Kante
5) West Ham - Rice and Soucek
6) Pool - Fabinho and Henderson
7) Everton - Doucoure and Allan
8) Spurs - Ndombele and Hojbjerg
9) Villa - McGinn and Douglas Luiz
10) Arsenal - Xhaka and Partey
Honestly, the people who disagree with me, the only reasons they can come up with us ‘over the top’, ‘nonsense’, ‘the irony’ ‘Kovacic and Kante
If any of those midfield pairings were to transfer here in exchange of McFred, would people really be able to say with a straight face that they wouldn’t take them because they wouldn’t improve us, both offensively and defensively? I don’t think so, not at all. They are good players individually, but together, they stifle us so much. Genuinely don’t understand what some people are seeing, clearly not much for most, because they aren’t giving good reasons. That JJ12 for example was simply here to derail the thread last night.
It is quite interesting that according to certain fans we have:
1. The worst midfield
2. The worst defensive pairing
3. No RW
Yet we are 2nd, semi final league cup, Quater final Europa, Quarter final FA cup?
1. The worst midfield
2. The worst defensive pairing
3. No RW
Yet we are 2nd, semi final league cup, Quater final Europa, Quarter final FA cup?
If you check those matches under Tuchel in the Premier League where Kovacic played more than 60 minutes then you get the followings:
- 8 matches
- 10 goals scored
- 0 goals or assists for Kovacic
For Kante:
- 4 matches
- 2 goals scored
- 0 goals and 1 assist for Kante
For the same time period, McTominay:
- 6 matches
- 16 goals scored
- 2 goals and 0 assist for McTominay
For Fred:
- 8 matches
- 16 goals scored
- 0 goals or assists for Fred
Hojbjerg played 10 matches, 1 goal 1 assist and lost 6 matches out of those 10. Ndombele played 9 matches, 0 goal 0 assist and lost 6 matches out of those 9.
Not wrong to be fair. As a pair they might have their uses in limited scenarios but it should be rare they start together.
I would in their defence say they're usually quite short of options around them. Contrast it to Milan yesterday who constantly made options for quick one touch passing in the first half.
We have Bruno too high to be that option and only really Shaw as the out ball a lot of the time.
I would in their defence say they're usually quite short of options around them. Contrast it to Milan yesterday who constantly made options for quick one touch passing in the first half.
We have Bruno too high to be that option and only really Shaw as the out ball a lot of the time.
That’s not how you play the moaning game, you just pick any kind of midfielders who are on a good run from a different team and use them to have a go at out players, positions and roles don’t really matter.