This thread is suggesting that this partnership is the constant starting 11 pairing. Not true. When paul is fit, he’s surely a starter. So it’s a fred/scot-pogba which we need to talk about. Still not the best i agree. This is why we need to look for a defensive midfielder in the summer.
McFred is the worst midfield 2 of the PL’s top 10 teams
- Thread starter RashyForPM
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I wouldn't take Rice and Soucek combo (would take Rice only)Over the top would be when people called Lingard a Championship player.
Let’s take a look at the top 10 of the PL this season, and their two holding/box to box midfielders:
1) City - Gundogan and KdB/Rodri
2) United - McFred
3) Leicester - Ndidi and Tielemans
4) Chelsea - Kovacic and Kante
5) West Ham - Rice and Soucek
6) Pool - Fabinho and Henderson
7) Everton - Doucoure and Allan
8) Spurs - Ndombele and Hojbjerg
9) Villa - McGinn and Douglas Luiz
10) Arsenal - Xhaka and Partey
Honestly, the people who disagree with me, the only reasons they can come up with us ‘over the top’, ‘nonsense’, ‘the irony’ ‘Kovacic and Kante‘ but with no explanation. The biggest belter is ‘we’re second’ like football is a 2 man game. No, we’re second because we have a very good team in essentially every position bar the centre of midfield.
If any of those midfield pairings were to transfer here in exchange of McFred, would people really be able to say with a straight face that they wouldn’t take them because they wouldn’t improve us, both offensively and defensively? I don’t think so, not at all. They are good players individually, but together, they stifle us so much. Genuinely don’t understand what some people are seeing, clearly not much for most, because they aren’t giving good reasons. That JJ12 for example was simply here to derail the thread last night.
Ndombele and Hojbjerg -Wouldn't take Hojbjerg at all. He isn't good enough player.
Wouldn't have Xhaka in the squad, forget first 11.
Problem with rating like this is, it's not so different to how Lingard was treated. People laughed at him when he rejected Sheffield United and said he won't be a starter even for Norwich or any other midtable teams. Now he has gone go West Ham and looks one of their best players.
Level of expectations and pressure at Manutd is different from midtable clubs. If Hojbjerg plays like he did for Spurs, his thread would have been worse than Lingard's. But since he plays for Spurs where people easily forget his mistakes, he was rated very highly when Spurs were flying.
Same with Soucek, if he plays for us, he would get worse treatment than Fellaini.
Just because McTominay and Fred are not good enough to be our starting players, we think they are worse than any other midtable CMs. They are not.
I remember having argument with Wolves fan who said at least 5-6 Wolves players would be in the combined 11 and then Nuno was great manager, Ole is a joke but somehow they were below us in the table all the time (if i'm not wrong even before Bruno was signed and with Pogba injured all the time)
Same with Leicester, they have better FBs, CBs, CMs, striker, Maddison and Barnes, Rodgers > Ole but we finished above them and above them in the table. It's just the way the players are scrutinized is different.
Not saying these players are better than all the players you mentioned, it's just that we are way too harsh on our players (rightly so) but that doesn't mean they are worse than every midtable CMs.
You'd rather have Xhaka-Partey. I'll leave you to it.Over the top would be when people called Lingard a Championship player.
Let’s take a look at the top 10 of the PL this season, and their two holding/box to box midfielders:
1) City - Gundogan and KdB/Rodri
2) United - McFred
3) Leicester - Ndidi and Tielemans
4) Chelsea - Kovacic and Kante
5) West Ham - Rice and Soucek
6) Pool - Fabinho and Henderson
7) Everton - Doucoure and Allan
8) Spurs - Ndombele and Hojbjerg
9) Villa - McGinn and Douglas Luiz
10) Arsenal - Xhaka and Partey
Honestly, the people who disagree with me, the only reasons they can come up with us ‘over the top’, ‘nonsense’, ‘the irony’ ‘Kovacic and Kante
If any of those midfield pairings were to transfer here in exchange of McFred, would people really be able to say with a straight face that they wouldn’t take them because they wouldn’t improve us, both offensively and defensively? I don’t think so, not at all. They are good players individually, but together, they stifle us so much. Genuinely don’t understand what some people are seeing, clearly not much for most, because they aren’t giving good reasons. That JJ12 for example was simply here to derail the thread last night.
Since Tuchel came chelseabhave scored about two goals, is that those same midfield two you crave for fault? Shit lack of creativity but protects the defence?
It seems reality has no chance against the dogged determination of many fans to believe this.
We are not rubbish against teams that sit back. On the contrary, we overwhelmingly beat them.
Our results are not better in games where we don't have the ball (as much).
In fact, the complete opposite is the case.
10 of our 16 PL wins came in matches where we dominated possession (more than 58%). Only 2 came in matches where the opponent dominated possession, with a further 2 in matches where the opposition had a significant margin (54-58%).
Our 9 draws has no patterns regarding possession at all - in 4 we had a possession advantage, in 4 the opposition had the advantage, while one was pretty much even.
Our 4 losses similarly has no very clear profile - 2 where we dominated posession, 1 even, one where the opposition dominated.
If we break down the record by degree of possession, it looks like this:
Dominated possession (58% or more): 10-3-2
Significantly higher possession (54-58%): 0-1-0
Pretty much even (47-53%): 2-1-1
Significantly inferior (43-47%) 2-2-0
Greatly inferior (less than 43%): 2-2-1
In summation: We dominate possession in the great majority of games we win, and we win the great majority of games where we dominate possession.
For reference, this is our PL record:
Losses
Dominated possession (58% or more): Crystal Palace, Sheffield United
Significantly higher possession (54-58%):
Pretty much even (47-53%): Arsenal
Significantly inferior (43-47%)
Greatly inferior (less than 43%): Tottenham
Draws:
Dominated possession (58% or more): Everton, WBA, Crystal Palace
Significantly higher possession (54-58%): Arsenal
Pretty much even (47-53%): Chelsea H
Significantly inferior (53-47%): Leicester, City
Greatly inferior (less than 43%): Liverpool, Chelsea A
Wins:
Dominated possession (58% or more): Fulham, Burnley, Wolves, Sheffield United, West Ham A, WBA, Newcastle H, Southampton H, Newcastle A, West Ham H
Significantly higher possession (54-58%):
Pretty much even (47-53%): Aston Villa, Southampton A
Significantly inferior (43-47%): Everton, Brighton
Greatly inferior (less than 43%): Leeds, Man City
How many of those players actually improve our team? If we fit in Bruno and Pogba then McFred do exactly what we need them to. The issue comes when we can't fit them in.
Also, Man City aside, I'd take Ndidi, Kante & Rice. Any one of those could work in a midfield 3 with Poggy and Bruno.
McFred is just one little part of the equation so it's not possible to claim that being 2nd supports your view. What if they were holding us back from 1st?
If you took out Rashford and Bruno and replaced them with other members of the squad would Utd still be second? Most likely not.
If you replaced McFred with Matic and Pogba there is a prospect of is still being 2nd.
The point it is, with so many actors and factors, being 2nd cannot be attributed to McFred alone. By that logic every single regular player is great and there is no one better than them in the teams below 2nd.
This not only ignore the input of other players who have been standouts, but it also ignores the impact of coaching and other factors.
The failure of this line of argument can demonstrated in that McFred played a half a season stretch together before Bruno came and while Pogba was out, and Utd struggled at 6th throughout.
Then we must have an awesome coach, but we don’t have that either, oh I know it’s because we’re lucky because of Covid and everyone else is crap
Yeah, Bruno and Pogba are sure starters, so we have 1 position in midfield. Hopefully we sign very good CM this summer.
They're not really our first choice, in fairness. It's Pogba + one of the other midfielders.
Fair enough. It’s my first half time thread and I don’t plan to make another one. I just think that McFred is our biggest weakness, maybe only one aside from AWB, at this moment.
Exactly my first reaction. Partey isn't that good that he can compensate for Xhaka's utter shittyness.Xhaka and Partey...FFS
Exactly. They are playing as our first choice player was injured and also struggled for fitness before.
If we have Pogba fit, then only one of them will start.
I didn’t bring up stats in my post, because we all know McT is becoming a decent box to box midfielder. However, are they really better for our build up play than those pairings you compared them with?
The game is not just about attacking. AWB can improve going forward but has had most wingers in his pocket, with shaw doing the same in the other side now this is a problem for our opponents getting past us wide.
Fred and mctominay do a job in the middle protecting the defence, the clean sheets point to this working to some degree. They could be better going forward but that’s not their primary role.
you point out that it’s the creativity from them that fecks us but then use Chelsea’s two under Tuchel as being better but they havnt scored anywhere near as much, actually struggling to score and look flat and are pretty useless going forward to, but you ignore these points. Kante going forward with the ball? He can only dream of carrying it like mctominay can
McFred is adequate for getting top 4. Is that enough?
Shaw is exactly what we need AWB to become, so I’ll leave that there.
On to McFred, when you watch Chelsea, you can see the Kovacic-Kante or Jorginho-Kante are better for the build up play, and good defensively too. Chelsea don’t have a Bruno to create chances and a player with as many goals as Rashford this season, hence why they score less. It’s no reflection on their midfielders, rather their attackers because we have better attackers than them. Werner, Pulisic, Ziyech and Havertz have been undeniably largely hapless this season.
Very well put. That's exactly how a lot of fans seem to view it. The form of Bruno, Rashford and Martial are this teams biggest problems right now.
Mctominay and Fred at least are always available and are willing to roll up their sleeves. We were shite in first half but that was as much to do with Bruno and Raahford being abysmal again than anything else.
Go ahead and upgrade Mcfred, I have no problem with that. Funny how there doesnt seem to be too many upgrades out there however. Can anyone tell me who they are? It ain't Rice, Niddi, Partey etc
Our fans are just as reactive as De Gea
Chelsea has played mostly Jorginho-Kovacic under Tuchel, Kante has largely started on the bench. But I agree with your basic point, which is that their central midfield has worked very well, and the lack of scoring is down rather to the players up front. And arguably also perhaps to the formation, with 3 at the back.
Never going to win the PL or CL with a midfield of Mctomminy, Fred and James.
That's always baffled me to be honest.
Good post but you're wasting your time unfortunately. We've just beaten a good Milan team away, a great City team away and a decent West Ham at home, but people just want to moan on here now
Martial, James, greenwood, rashford have not been hapless this season?
Or are we blaming mctomminay and Fred for that?
you brought wan bissaka up, for no reason
You could hand-pick 9 other players from anyhwere in the world to play around McFred & put Guardiola in charge and I reckon we'd still struggle to win the league.
To follow up on this. If you look at the results vs possession last season before and after Bruno, it tells a very clear story.
Conclusions first:
Before Bruno's arrival, we lost or drew the great majority of the games where we had more than a marginal advantage in possession, and the great majority of our wins came in games where we didn't.
After Bruno's arrival, we won the majority of the games where we had more than a marginal advantage in possession, and did not lose any. 3/4 of our wins came with the possession advantage. And we were still doing great when we did not have the possession advantage.
See this in conjunction with this season's record, and it becomes obvious that there's been a fundamental change. Through January last year, we were definitely a team that did better when the opposition had the possession advantage than when we had it ourselves. But this is plainly no longer the case - we now do much, much better when we control possession than when we don't. And also, we generally do very well when we control possession (and, less positively, less well than we used to when the opposition has the ball a lot). Both the much improved results when we control possession and our declining results when we don't tell the same story: That the team is developing from a counterattack one trick pony to a team that aims to dominate games. Also, that they've progressed a good deal along that route. Also, that there's still work to be done. While this is not a team that can be described as generally struggling to break down low-block teams, it's still a team that occasionally struggles to beat low-block teams. And has difficulty beating teams that dominate possession.
There's a good few people around here (and among pundits) who badly needs to update their perception of what this team is and what it isn't.
ANALYSIS
Before Bruno, just 3 of our 9 wins came in games where we had a significant or better possession advantage. That was the case in 14 games, in which our record was a putrid 3-6-5. In games where the opposition had a significant or better possession advantage, it was 6-1-3.
After Bruno's arrival, 6 of our 8 wins came in games where we dominated possession. Our record with the possession advantage was 6-5-0. With the advantage with the opposition, it was 2-0-0 (which is obviously a very small sample).
Pre-Bruno
Dominated possession (58% or more): 3-5-4
Significantly higher possession (54-58%): 0-1-1
Pretty much even (47-53%): 1-0-2
Significantly inferior (43-47%) 1-0-1
Greatly inferior (less than 43%): 4-1-0
Post-Bruno
Dominated possession (58% or more): 6-2-0
Significantly higher possession (54-58%): 0-3-0
Pretty much even (47-53%): 0-1-0
Significantly inferior (43-47%) -
Greatly inferior (less than 43%): 2-0-0
A Carrick type would be my ideal midfield partner if we are to continue to play with a double-pivot and with Pogba as one of them.
I thought an ageing Carrick and Pogba looked good in 2016/2017. But if you put a prime Carrick there, it would give Pogba the freedom to roam around the pitch, however, I may be in the minority but I do like Pogba from the LW as he is playing an area where it isn't as congested and we know he has the ability to beat a man 1 on 1 and whip in a cross or cut inside on his stronger right food. He can also have the ability to come central if needed. IMO I'd rather have Pogba there than Rashford and buy 2 new CM's with better ball playing abilities than McFred.
We can try other stats. You can check McTominay and Ndombele on whoscored.com and see that McTominay has more passes per game with a better pass success percentage, more key passes per game, dispossessed less, etc.
Fred also have more key passes than Hojbjerg. It's also true if you compare him with Partey or Xhaka or Soucek or Ndidi, etc., you can go on.
We could have a better pairing, that's true, but they are far from the worst midfield 2. Earlier you said we’re second because we have a very good team in essentially every position bar the centre of midfield. That's just not true. For example Greenwood has only 1 goal and 1 assist in the PL and has less key passes than Fred. Another example Martial who has the same amount of goals as McTominay.
I woudn't say that they are the worst midfield 2 of the PL's top 4 teams, let alone top 10.
Yeah, I know. But I'll be damned if I'm going to take that lying down.
Very good posts @justsomebloke
I really don't get this place anymore. Seems I never learn, as I was logging in this morning expecting to see a relatively happy forum. Feels like we lost last nightYeah, I know. But I'll be damned if I'm going to take that lying down.
McFred are what allow Shaw and AWB to play high up the pitch. And they give Pogba, Bruno, Rashford and Greenwood the freedom to ignore tracking back.
Complaining about them is like claiming that your race car could go faster if you removed the brake pedal. Maybe. But then then you'd crash 6-1 against Tottenham.
Complaining about them is like claiming that your race car could go faster if you removed the brake pedal. Maybe. But then then you'd crash 6-1 against Tottenham.
Eloquently put, but there's other comments to this debate earlier in the thread which you've missed, my point is i dont believe they're worse than the 8 teams CM combinations below us which is what this thread is about and if they were, i dont believe we'd be in the position we are in as CM is a fundamental part to any team.
They're way too limited, but saying that when Pogba was fit and firing, it was generally Pogba +1 in there, so Ole clearly recognises they don't bring enough guile and control in midfield.
I think we'll be looking to replace Matic this summer, with a view to that replacement being a starter, and Fred and McTominay to become more rotation players.
I definitely don't want to see them together too often against quality opposition. It's painful to watch, and we simply can't pass through midfield with them.
I think we'll be looking to replace Matic this summer, with a view to that replacement being a starter, and Fred and McTominay to become more rotation players.
I definitely don't want to see them together too often against quality opposition. It's painful to watch, and we simply can't pass through midfield with them.
I think they're also a big reason why we can't see games out, and struggle to maintain control in games for longer periods.
It's all about weighing up the pros and cons, but we should expect our midfielders to be responsible in defence, contribute in attack, and generally control the middle of the pitch.
McTominay and Fred don't really excel at any of that, and the game often bypasses them. Work rate and tenacity isn't enough, we'll never evolve from our backs against the wall football when playing the bigger teams.
Not good enough long term.
Yeah exactly, instead of actually watching the game and forming their own opinion they follow the negative narrative like sheep.
It makes sense that some don’t watch the actual football when you see some posts.
We dont play 2 in midfield so this is nonsense
Yes we do. 4231.
Fred and McT are solid not necessarily a title winning midfield but obviously good enough to be second best. After watching the Milan tie, we should consider a move for Kessie. He’s a definite upgrade over Fred.
Not really. Bruno drops too deep and covers too much ground not to be part of the midfield. Its why you see him continually play those long, through balls to Rashford and co.
Saying that, 2 sitting and 1 ahead is a midfield? Saying 4-2-3-1 proves nothing since we literally play a front 3 and Rashford is a forward player. Using your logic, Rashford isnt because theres a 1 in front of him?