Messi is better than maradona....

Jopub said:
mmm opened up a can of worms I see

My Stoke (could be the old Middlsbro etc Bolton under Big Sam etc etc) comments were a little tongue in cheek but I will stand by them and explain them too.

My feelings about Messi are not based at all on his personal abilities as a footballer. That's another subject for me and even in that respect I feel he is Maradona's inferior, but later.

Era

What is out of Messi's control is the age in which he is playing and I did state that in my earlier post. He is playing now in an era of 'football adventure' where to create and attack is king and frankly if you are of that nature it will be a little easier than playing back in the 60's/70's/'80's when defenders could legally kick the shit out of you the whole game.

Defenders now are not king you fking breathe on somebodys arse and your carded lift a foot ooff the floor and its the 'two footed leg breakers' are ruining the game brigade out in full force. Attacking players are protected by the ref more an more to the point where its difficult to see what is a legal fking tackle any more.

Messi benefits hugely from this alone. Best Pele Maradona Cruyff had to deal with complete thugs trying to take them out of the game every fking wend and it was okay for them to do so

I cant help it if the younger lot on here have never seen the crumpled heaps that Best became as another thunderous 'tackle' left him up against the wall outside the touchline. Its not my (or Messi's) fault that Messi does not have not contend with any of that for a second in the game today and its a huge huge difference to how today an attacking player can produce what he does

im happy that Lionel does not have ot contend with that kind of brutality every game, every fking game but then again it would also be a happy medium if the tackling was not as diluted a sits become. Messi benefits from this massively as do Xavi and Iniesta :
Click to expand...


right, two things

1st. 2010/2011 pichichis: 1 Ronadlo with 40
2nd messi with 31
3rd Negredo with 20

not exactly a "anyone can score goals at will, uh? ronaldo score 100 percent more goals than the third one, while messi scored over 50 percent more goals than the third one

and
3147999.jpg


plus

1616-lionel-messi-rubber-ankle-tackle-343243.JPG




Jopub said:
La Liga / competitiveness

Playing in La Liga is a bit of a carnival for the best players is'nt it? I'll stand by my earlier point that that the bottom 8 sides in that league would struggle to get out of the Championship we have here. That hardly makes it competitive?

How often does a top striker get near to 40 goals in this country? Ronaldo is about it I think. Truly great achievement that against sides that can defend and get in your face from 10th position to the last.

Look at the annual relegation dogfight every year in the PL - until the last game every year the bottom 6/7 clubs are in it up to their necks

La Liga sorry but to coin a phrase competitively 'its not even in the same league'

If anybody is going to say Lionel Messi does not benefit from that lack of competitiveness then they're bonkers

That's two huge aspects that give the already brilliant genius that is Messi a big helping hand

And genius he is because you have got be to take advantage of those things being in place to produce your best nomatter and credit where its due he does :
Click to expand...


playing in la liga is easy? ok, maybe

but players like ibrahimovic, beckham, owen etc. etc. may not agree

now you will say that in la liga there are only two sides, real madrid and barcelona

funny from a league that of the last 19 championships, 12 has been for the same team, we won over 60 percen of the premierleagues, and we left the rest for 3 teams

and about the last 8 spanish teams wouldnt make it in the pl, how do you know?
cristal ball or something? or are you so full of yourself that can't see that last year liverpool didn't even make it in the europa league, right, Atletico Madrid won it

against Fulham

btw. from last year i remember chelsea scoring 8 and 7 goals against the weakest teams of our league, you sure that they will have score as many against the last La Liga teams? how?

Jopub said:
Stoke / Climate

My point about 'Stoke' whoever, (you all know what kind of teams I mean)
is this. I've played some football and its far harder to get yourself up for a game on a rock hard semi frozen pile of shite than a bumpy one in 30 degrees. If you've played football in both these conditions you'll know this.

Should Barca for some reason have to play a 'Stoke' or whoever in a one off cup game in February of course they'd get 'up' for it. They should do. They'd also probably come away with a result too and Messi might add a bit of magic to help but were Messi in the PL playing under these conditions for three/four months of the year then he might not.

Climatically this is a very very different proposition from playing in Spain and I'll make this point too - How many matches in La liga are played in the mid afternoon sun?

For comfort nearly all matches are evening kickoff its a footballers fking paradise -in February !

I'd also ask this (and have not checked it out) but how well does Barca Messi fare in away games at Zenit of in Bulgaria.

I'm not saying he's not great enough do be as good as he is in those conditions but it would be interesting to see if he could do what he does in favorable Spain on a frozen bumpy pitch in February under a physical assault from Shawcross et al on a regular basis. Its not use loads of you saying "this is bollocks "it's ridiculous he would be great under anything" because you don't know.

He does play in a great side even when he's not there. That's how good they are.

Don't get us oldun's wrong - we know ability when we see it. We've not watched / played loved this game for 45 years and not learned from it. We know how good young Lionel is but we have also seen players play in surrounding that were distinctly UNsupportive of their abilities but seen them shine through. Maradona being one of them.

I just feel everything is set up for Messi to be so good and although blessed with incredible gifts Id like to see him doing it in less favourable scenarios.

That's why he HAS to do better with the national side to get anywhere near Maradona. They are certainly below Barcas league and so he needs to step up big time to live with Maradona.

He's not a one man show when he plays for Argentina - that's obvious, but the greatest players can pull up a very good side into something special and that is what he has not yet done. In Italy 90 Maradona nearly pullled off the most incredible feat in getting Argentina to the final. Apart from him they were ordinary, really ordinary and he nearly won that trophy for them. He did similarly at Napoli. Football is a team effort and there's no such thing as the one man team but he's the nearest you'll ever see to it at a professional level

I've explained my points and hope they highlight how different it was playing at Maradona's Pele's Best's time and now.

Messi could go on and better them but you have to agree it's a bit easier for him to do it now than it was for those players

____________

Btw RDreams and I are not joined at the hip (we don't agree on everything!) :D

Brad, you had slipped to getting 4 / 5 out of 10 this year but now really mate it's embarrassing - you must officially be my fking stalker :lol::nervous:

2 out of 10 for this miserly effort and an awful lot of room for improvement :lol:
Click to expand...

yes. stoke, and winter, that is what it made the bulshit alarm hit the ceiling

i'm not going to answer that, is just stupid, is not knowing simple facts as how cold are the winters in the north of spain, close to the atlantic or close to the french border
 
Red Dreams said:
he is not going to get better. He may achieve more.

two different things which seem to be confusing you.
Click to expand...

What a silly post. Is your reasoning behind Messi not getting any better because it would be absolutely unfathomable given the level he's already at? I'm guessing not.

Messi is 23. 23 years of age. I cannot for the life of me imagine why on earth a 23 year old with the professionalism of Messi, and still, bizarrely, the attributes that he can still improve upon (right foot, set pieces, shooting from range - which he is already improving) is unable to improve.

This sort of post reminds me of Scholesy with his not improving technique past 16 years of age nonsense, in a way. It would be less bizarre if it weren't for the fact that, over the past couple of seasons, he hadn't already visibly improved certain aspects of his game. Playmaking, decision making, passing and, as I say, shooting from range....all improving.
 
Sure he can get better. Maradona's passing was far better, something that just can't be refuted by anyone with a working pair of eyes. Still, he's certainly close to being the biggest handful there ever was.
 
This nonsense about La Liga needs to stop and all. Just because the top two teams are considerably stronger than the rest of the teams in the league, doesn't mean that the league itself isn't all that.

In the Premiership, from about 3rd to, say, 7th, there is a fair bit more competition, but would anyone contest that 7th to 20th is as strong, if not a little bit stronger than their Premiership counterparts?

The Premiership is probably stronger overall, but it's not the absolutely collosal and vast gulf that many on here make it out to be. To be honest, the attitude towards every other league on here, by default, stinks of some sort of arrogance, not to mention ignorance. When Van Nistelrooy and Henry were shitting out every other team in the league here in the early part of this century, I doubt many were undermining their achievements by suggesting that that they should be doing it in La Liga for Valencia, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Deportivo etc, nor should I imagine that people were suggesting that Cantona was any worse a player because he wasn't taking apart the Italians every week in the 90s.

Messi gets his chance to play the English teams in the Champions League, and has played several over the course of the last few seasons. He's played brilliantly alongside Ronaldinho against Chelsea, he's taken apart Arsenal on a couple of occasions, he scored what turned out to be the goal that finished the tie as a contest against us in 2009 (the final!), and pretty much ripped us about 8 new arseholes a couple of days ago (again, the final).

All he needs to do now is to wait until Stoke to qualify for the Champions League which, amazingly, given their huge European status and reputation, they somehow haven't managed to do yet.
 
Jopub said:
Look at the annual relegation dogfight every year in the PL - until the last game every year the bottom 6/7 clubs are in it up to their necks

La Liga sorry but to coin a phrase competitively 'its not even in the same league'
Click to expand...

I understand you don't watch La Liga because you don't deem it competitive but this point doesn't really make any sense when you take into consideration there was just 3 points between 11th and 18th. Two years previous there was just 4 points between the same places. I don't think you've really got as much of an idea about La Liga's weaker teams as you think, and how could you if you don't watch them, but the idea that teams are fighting for their life in the PL and aren't in La Liga, that they're not competitive - it's easily proven wrong.

Barcelona and Madrid get far more big scores but these are teams that do this in the Champions League too - Barcelona beat both of us 3-1 (only two teams in this league have conceded less), Madrid beat Spurs 5-0 etc. Yes they're worse defensively, they're also better going forward. To think that you'd deem them Championship sides despite only ever watching them in games against the big teams - if at all - is frankly fking ridiculous, to coin a phrase.
 
KingEric7 said:
This nonsense about La Liga needs to stop and all. Just because the top two teams are considerably stronger than the rest of the teams in the league, doesn't mean that the league itself isn't all that.

In the Premiership, from about 3rd to, say, 7th, there is a fair bit more competition, but would anyone contest that 7th to 20th is as strong, if not a little bit stronger than their Premiership counterparts?

The Premiership is probably stronger overall, but it's not the absolutely collosal and vast gulf that many on here make it out to be. To be honest, the attitude towards every other league on here, by default, stinks of some sort of arrogance, not to mention ignorance. When Van Nistelrooy and Henry were shitting out every other team in the league here in the early part of this century, I doubt many were undermining their achievements by suggesting that that they should be doing it in La Liga for Valencia, Real Madrid, Barcelona, Deportivo etc, nor should I imagine that people were suggesting that Cantona was any worse a player because he wasn't taking apart the Italians every week in the 90s.

Messi gets his chance to play the English teams in the Champions League, and has played several over the course of the last few seasons. He's played brilliantly alongside Ronaldinho against Chelsea, he's taken apart Arsenal on a couple of occasions, he scored what turned out to be the goal that finished the tie as a contest against us in 2009 (the final!), and pretty much ripped us about 8 new arseholes a couple of days ago (again, the final).

All he needs to do now is to wait until Stoke to qualify for the Champions League which, amazingly, given their huge European status and reputation, they somehow haven't managed to do yet.
Click to expand...

It's ridiculous really. Messi doesn't need Shawcross and Robert fecking Huth's approval for him to be classed as the best player in the world. The logic is just erroneous and bizarre behind such thinking.
 
If it was a relatively breezy, clear night in Stoke, how would he get on? 7/10?

If it was a sunny afternoon in Stoke, maybe he would even score.
 
Listen its a free country I dont have to agree with anybody

I've watched and played this game all my life for over 45 years and for me the league in Spain even more so now is much weaker in general and therefore much less competitive than the PL

My opinion and I'm happy with it. A very good striker will get more goals there than here imo

I'd say anybody trying to maintain its as strong / competitive as the PL is being a bit silly but fair enough of you do

In respect of conditions to play football in then if you think a winter in Spain is harder to play than the semi frozen north of England then your fking mad - sorry but you are and it lasts longer here as well

In terms of footballing conditions ie leniancy of refereeing on over physicallity then sorry you simply need to have seen what was going on two days a week in the league back in the 60/70/80's - it simply bears no comparison to the 'thou shall not even touch my hair' mode we are currently governed under and for that reason alone Maradona's achievements are in a different bracket to Messi's although granted that's not Messi's fault.

Messi is a great player the best of this generation so far imo and could go on to be greater but right now he's the lynchpin of an already great side and unfortunately that puts his place alongside Maradona in question

IN MY OPINION

(before somebody wets their knickers and floods the cafe with urine)
 
Jopub said:
Listen its a free country I dont have to agree with anybody

I've watched and played this game all my life for over 45 years and for me the league in Spain even more so now is much weaker in general and therefore much less competitive than the PL

My opinion and I'm happy with it. A very good striker will get more goals there than here imo

I'd say anybody trying to maintain its as strong / competitive as the PL is being a bit silly but fair enough of you do

In respect of conditions to play football in then if you think a winter in Spain is harder to play than the semi frozen north of England then your fking mad - sorry but you are and it lasts longer here as well

In terms of footballing conditions ie leniancy of refereeing on over physicallity then sorry you simply need to have seen what was going on two days a week in the league back in the 60/70/80's - it simply bears no comparison to the 'thou shall not even touch my hair' mode we are currently governed under and for that reason alone Maradona's achievements are in a different bracket to Messi's although granted that's not Messi's fault.

Messi is a great player the best of this generation so far imo and could go on to be greater but right now he's the lynchpin of an already great side and unfortunately that puts his place alongside Maradona in question

IN MY OPINION

(before somebody wets their knickers and floods the cafe with urine)
Click to expand...

i know is your opinion

but how about maradona and pele? would they have no problem playing against stoke in a cold winter night? is it only messi that is made of some strange material, different from the rest of the human beigns
 
Your opinion's not really based on actually watching these teams though, that's kind of the problem. You're free to have your opinion just as people are free to brush it off as being almost entirely baseless.
 
Everytime I go through a Maradona watching binge, they blow for fouls on him.


Is there something I'm missing about the no protection?


This video is pretty sensational by the way.

It's like he and Messi are related.
 
Gio said:
More relevant to the Messi / Maradona discussion are the relevant goal averages from the domestic leagues:

1986/87 Serie A..............1.92
2010/11 La Liga..............2.74

1980s and 1990s Serie A was an era when defence was king: Como finished comfortably mid-table netting just 16 goals all season in 86/87; Milan won the title with 36 goals in 93/94. When there are almost 50% more goals during the course of a season, comparing goalscoring records is an almost pointless exercise.
Click to expand...

We were talking about the world cup because it's the ONLY thing where Maradona can be considered ahead of Messi.

You can't bring up the league discussion because there is no comparison between the two. Yes Serie A was more defensive, but how many goals did Maradona score there? TEN in the first season they won the title (3 of them penalties), and 16 in the second season they won it. He wasn't even the highest scorer in both seasons (4th in the first and 3rd in the second).

Besides, Maradona only played a few seasons in Italy. He scored half of his career goals at club level in Argentina!

And if you think goals don't count unless they are scored in the Italian league, then Inzaghi is better then Pele!
 
Danny1982 said:
We were talking about the world cup because it's the ONLY thing where Maradona can be considered ahead of Messi.

You can't bring up the league discussion because there is no comparison between the two. Yes Serie A was more defensive, but how many goals did Maradona score there? TEN in the first season they won the title (3 of them penalties), and 16 in the second season they won it. He wasn't even the highest scorer in both seasons (4th in the first and 3rd in the second).

Besides, Maradona only played a few seasons in Italy. He scored half of his career goals at club level in Argentina!

And if you think goals don't count unless they are scored in the Italian league, then Inzaghi is better then Pele!
Click to expand...


Who said otherwise :confused:
 
Boss said:
Everytime I go through a Maradona watching binge, they blow for fouls on him.


Is there something I'm missing about the no protection?
Click to expand...

Heh. He may have got a fair few kicks but Maradona is in fact the most fouled player in the history of the Serie A.
 
Maradona had that horrendous achilles injury which meant he had to have an operation and a pin inserted into his left foot... Goikotxchea, or however it's spelled, of Athletico Bilbao making the challenge during his stay at Barcelona. After that Maradona's left foot bloated to the extent that he wore a boot that was two sizes larger than his right one when he was playing. He still dominated the Italian league and the world cup after that.

The stuff of legend, really. And this'll also back the notion that he had it worse in terms of fouls than Messi has thus far.
 
Eriku said:
Maradona had that horrendous achilles injury which meant he had to have an operation and a pin inserted into his left foot... Goikotxchea, or however it's spelled, of Athletico Bilbao making the challenge during his stay at Barcelona. After that Maradona's left foot bloated to the extent that he wore a boot that was two sizes larger than his right one when he was playing. He still dominated the Italian league and the world cup after that.

The stuff of legend, really. And this'll also back the notion that he had it worse in terms of fouls than Messi has thus far.
Click to expand...

I don't get it.

Was he not supposed to come back? Was his foot not supposed to heal, was he supposed to lose all of his ability?
 
Brwned said:
Your opinion's not really based on actually watching these teams though, that's kind of the problem. You're free to have your opinion just as people are free to brush it off as being almost entirely baseless.
Click to expand...

Are you gonna start being silly again


..or have you just had an, erm, dare I say it - a little "emotional" outburst :lol:
 
Boss said:
I don't get it.

Was he not supposed to come back? Was his foot not supposed to heal, was he supposed to lose all of his ability?
Click to expand...

:confused:

Surely if, whenever you play the game, your inflamed foot gets two sizes bigger, it must be a bit of a hindrance.

Then again, maybe I'm a bit of a jessie.
 
Jopub said:
Are you gonna start being silly again


..or have you just had an, erm, dare I say it - a little "emotional" outburst :lol:
Click to expand...

admit it, watching messi score four goals in one game against your team, and pwning almunia on the other, set your brain on fire

you have a post traumatic syndrome

its all clear now

btw, just talked to messi, and he wants me to tell you, that if he ever plays against stoke on a cold winter night, he will try to remember to wear an extra pair of socks and a long sleeves shirt

like the ones he uses when he visites galicia, santander or pais vasco
 
Boss said:
Sorry I read your post wrong, it's hard to do this and work at the same time :lol:
Click to expand...

What sort of rubbish poster do you think I am that you don't do a double-take when reading what you thought was a VERY shit argument from me?

Me rep needs sorting, I see :)
 
marcosdeto said:
admit it, watching messi score four goals in one game against your team, and pwning almunia on the other, set your brain on fire

you have a post traumatic syndrome

its all clear now

btw, just talked to messi, and he wants me to tell you, that if he ever plays against stoke on a cold winter night, he will try to remember to wear an extra pair of socks and a long sleeves shirt

like the ones he uses when he visites galicia, santander or pais vasco
Click to expand...

Tell you what, after the other night you should really be economical with the word pwning :lol:

I saw a stat somewhere saying Utd had one more shot on goal on Saturday then we did when we played them at the Nou camp this year

......and look how you laughed at us
 
Breaking News:
------------------------
The FA has decided to drop Arsenal from the champions League next season, and replace them with Stoke City, because after consecutive embarrassments at the hands of Barcelona, the FA believes that Stoke City stands the best chance of beating Barcelona at the moment according to multiple reliable sources like Jopub, and Red Dreams.
 
Danny1982 said:
Breaking News:
------------------------
The FA has decided to drop Arsenal from the champions League next season, and replace them with Stoke City, because after consecutive embarrassments at the hands of Barcelona, the FA believes that Stoke City stands the best chance of beating Barcelona at the moment according to multiple reliable sources like Jopub, and Red Dreams.
Click to expand...

Funny but it could be us next time... :nono:
 
Pele, Johan Cruyff, Diego Maradonna, Zinedine Zidane... Lionel Messi - he's only 23 ffs!!! :eek:
 
On a side note, I wish to mention Busquets, he's already World Champion, Spanish League Winner and CL Winner at the age of 21 :drool:

and now going for Under-21, what does he have to prove more?
 
Danny1982 said:
Breaking News:
------------------------
The FA has decided to drop Arsenal from the champions League next season, and replace them with Stoke City, because after consecutive embarrassments at the hands of Barcelona, the FA believes that Stoke City stands the best chance of beating Barcelona at the moment according to multiple reliable sources like Jopub, and Red Dreams.
Click to expand...

:lol:

it would be really funny if you understood Stoke City = any 'kick lumps out players' club.
 
Jopub said:
Tell you what, after the other night you should really be economical with the word pwning :lol:

I saw a stat somewhere saying Utd had one more shot on goal on Saturday then we did when we played them at the Nou camp this year

......and look how you laughed at us
Click to expand...

the difference is that i admit we where beat by a better team

you dont
 
Danny1982 said:
Breaking News:
------------------------
The FA has decided to drop Arsenal from the champions League next season, and replace them with Stoke City, because after consecutive embarrassments at the hands of Barcelona, the FA believes that Stoke City stands the best chance of beating Barcelona at the moment according to multiple reliable sources like Jopub, and Red Dreams.
Click to expand...

:lol::lol:
 
Danny1982 said:
We were talking about the world cup because it's the ONLY thing where Maradona can be considered ahead of Messi.
Click to expand...

I don't think that the balance between defence and attack in international football has changed significantly since Maradona's era. He didn't play in the 1950s and, after all, the World Cup with the fewest goals per game was Italia '90.
 
Gio said:
I don't think that the balance between defence and attack in international football has changed significantly since Maradona's era. He didn't play in the 1950s and, after all, the World Cup with the fewest goals per game was Italia '90.
Click to expand...

If you read the original posts you'll see that the original argument was that defense was stronger in general in Maradona's days, which isn't true in my opinion.
 
I'm of the generation who'll always feel Maradona is above and beyond, but I've always admired Messi too, from the first moment I saw him play. Marcos' posts says it all, really. There are aspects of the game (vision; passing; free kicks) where Maradona is still the one for me, and it's got nothing to do with World Cups or elevating lesser teams (although I'll always admire Maradona for what he did in '86 and at Napoli).

I'm just incredibly envious of Argentina -- what on earth makes them produce players like that? Again and again? Such genius! (And I'm not just talking about Messi and Maradona -- they're too many to mention; Di Stéfano, Passarela, Kempes, Batistuta, Riquelme...) Please answer on a postcard, Marcos! :)
 
I hope Barcelona finish 3rd in their Champions League group and then meet Stoke in the group stage of the UEFA Cup, then we can see whether Messi and co can handle the likes of Delap, Huth on a cold, windy night at Stoke :p
 
marcosdeto said:
the difference is that i admit we where beat by a better team

you dont
Click to expand...

Hang on where do you get that from ?

where do I say that?

And don't scuttle off and disappear - where did I say that ?

You were bigging it that we were "pwned" by Barca only two days after they completely and utterly globally dismantled, dissected and fking humiliated you.

How fking stupid is that :lol:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.