Err... just pointing out he's been involved in 2 world cups, not one. No need to get all touchy about it.
Let's face it, in 2010 Argentina didn't do much, it'd be like me going on about Butt being the best English player in 2002.
Messi is better than maradona....
- Thread starter VoetbalWizard
- Start date
Err... just pointing out he's been involved in 2 world cups, not one. No need to get all touchy about it.
Let's face it, in 2010 Argentina didn't do much, it'd be like me going on about Butt being the best English player in 2002.
His passing is already brilliant, he can dribble past the very best for fun regularly, and he far surpasses what Maradona achieved in the scoring stakes already
Sadly, some people so idolize players or moments from their youth, they can't see something as good or better, even when it smacks them hard over and over in the face
Sadly, some people so idolize players or moments from their youth, they can't see something as good or better, even when it smacks them hard over and over in the face
he is not going to get better. He may achieve more.
two different things which seem to be confusing you.
didn't he play for barcelona?
but don't let that fact, blind you, he also played for boca, the same team that two years before won the libertadores cup twice, and he played for argentina, a team that when he started playing for, already had won the world cup -one year before-
i saw maradona play a lot of times in the field and yes, i agree, messi is not yet at his level, but if he keeps playing like this, not only he will reach him, but he will surpass him, no doubt about it
you bleating on about the World Cup is a poor way to argue. I said he 'almost single handedly'.
Maradona would have shone in any team he played for.
Please tell me how Messi will surpass Maradona'a ability? Are you talking trophy counts?
Or is he suddenly going to beat more players, make better passes?
so the fact he played for Barcelona then, means that Barcelona team is the same as this one? come on, you can do better. The current side is probably the best they have ever produced.
you still cannot get your mind past the team these players played in.
As I said bringing up the World Cup is not even an argument. I only brought up that example...more significantly the 1990 tournament as the better example of what Maradona did for the team.
but tbf, it is very difficult to compare players from different eras. I will agree.
For most of us, it is moments that stand out. The more we have seen, the more such moments we have.
I will just say that watching Messi now is a privilege. I hope he gets better...except he has bad days against us
saying "almost single handedly" is almost as stupid as saying "single handedly"
you know nothing about the argentinian players that shared that team with him, you know nothing at all
and 1990 world cup? he was injured, he did a great pass to cannigia against brazil, that was about it, he missed his penalty against yugoeslavia during the shoot outs, didn't score a single goal during the whole world cup and argentina went to the final game thanks to the keeper, sergio goicoechea, who saved a lot of penalties against yugoeslavia and italy
in the first round we lost against cameroon, beat USSR 2-1 and barely tied against romania 2-2
we qulified to the next round because we where one of the best "thirds"
then we beat brazil 1-0 in a game that they deserved to win 6-1, we tied against yugoeslavia 0-0 and beat them over shoot outs, we tied with italy 1-1 and then beat them in penalty kicks, and then we lose against germany in a game that we had one attempt at goal
and yes, messi quality can improve, in fact he's playing a lot better than what he did last year and the year before, and yes he may dribble more players, and he may start scoring more goals from free kicks
always good not to address the issues marco. crystal gazing too.
you are an idiot.
so are the Barcelona teams Maradona and Messi played for the same?
You say you've seen Best and Maradona at their prime, yet you can't appreciate a unique talent like Messi? Stinks of sour grapes to me.
Hehe, rare is it you see someones arse handed to them in quite this fashion. Bet he's regretting that tripe uninformed comment now!
right you where "just pointing out"
oh dear
please dont let your hatred of Jopub filter down to me just cause I agreed with him.
Not as stupid as your claims that this is as good as it's going to get for him. The fact that he's made a mockery out of 95% of the sides he's played this season isn't good enough apparently..yet you profess to have deep admiration for Best and Maradona while saying Leo's reached his peak. Listen to yourself you spanner.
always good not to address the issues marco. crystal gazing too.
you are an idiot.
so are the Barcelona teams Maradona and Messi played for the same?
i'm a what?
at least i know what i'm talking about, as i said, you know shit about argentina players, you may have seen maradona, but you have no idea who he played with
and yes, maradona played for barcelona, not only for napoli
and in napoli he played 8 years and he scored less than 15 goals a year -115 in total- while messi, in 6 years already scored 180 goals for barcelona -30 goals a year-
oh dear
please dont let your hatred of Jopub filter down to me just cause I agreed with him.
Eh?
Jopub has nothing to do with anything I've said
Calling the bloke who's giving you an education 'an idiot' doesn't smack me as the cleverest thing to do
I'd love to hear a bit more about what natural talents Messi lacks. What with your myths about defending standards and one man teams being so eloquantly quashed already
so you agree you made a stupid post. good.
you being too stupid to understand what is posted is not my issue.
what a player achieves with his team is different from the skills one has. I cannot see how Messi will 'develop' greater skills than Best or Maradona is all I am saying.
stop getting your nickers in a twist.
stop calling names
So everyone is stupid or an idiot, apart from the man having his arguement picked apart?
Righto
Righto
For the record, I completely disregarded your idiotic attempts to put yourself on some kind of pedestal as a knowledgeable poster..but yeah if it makes you feel good about yourself. Secondly, the bolded part bangs home the point that you're a much thicker cnut than I gave you credit for it in the first place. Messi doesn't need to 'develop skills' or whatever the feck you mean by that, Messi's skill has been evident ever since the age of 18 when he first broke onto the scene. Sure he's improved with regards to goalscoring and consistency since then, but his skill has never been in question. I don't know why you're banging on about the fact that he's not an individualist, what were you watching on Saturday night? What did you see against Real Madrid at the Bernabeu when he scored one of the most individualistic goals you're ever likely to witness? Wasn't that individualistic enough?
people doesn't remember that before europe started buying every argentinian and brazilian player, they were playing in argentina,
of course some argentinians and brazilians left the country to go to europe, but it was rare and were only the best of the best, like Maradona, Valdano, Distefano
many of you don't know the quality of the argentinian tournament
in fact, when in 1978 argentina won her first world cup, only one player was playing abroad, and that was kempes -at valencia-, the other 21 players were playing in argentina
when in 1986 we won our second world cup, from the first team, only maradona, valdano and burruchaga were playing abroad, the rest were playing in the argentinian league
so most of you never heard of players like pumpido, ruggeri, enrique, olarticoechea, trobbiani, brown, giusti
but they where great players, all of them had won the libertadores cup, and the intercontinental cup
in fact, giusti and burruchaga belonged to the team that beat liverpool 1-0 in 1984
and liverpool had quite a team at that time, right?
of course some argentinians and brazilians left the country to go to europe, but it was rare and were only the best of the best, like Maradona, Valdano, Distefano
many of you don't know the quality of the argentinian tournament
in fact, when in 1978 argentina won her first world cup, only one player was playing abroad, and that was kempes -at valencia-, the other 21 players were playing in argentina
when in 1986 we won our second world cup, from the first team, only maradona, valdano and burruchaga were playing abroad, the rest were playing in the argentinian league
so most of you never heard of players like pumpido, ruggeri, enrique, olarticoechea, trobbiani, brown, giusti
but they where great players, all of them had won the libertadores cup, and the intercontinental cup
in fact, giusti and burruchaga belonged to the team that beat liverpool 1-0 in 1984
and liverpool had quite a team at that time, right?
marco skated his arguments. He never addressed the issue.
Him comparing the Barcelona teams of different eras is highly ignorant. you obviously think that is an education. thats your opinion which means nowt to me.
Messi is probably the greatest player of his generation. And he plays in the greatest team in a generation I dare say. He lacks nothing...All I am saying is I think Maradona and Best were better. I will concede it is unfair to compare players from different eras. But you cant help doing that when you have seen these players.
Jopub seems to share the same opinion.
I suppose that mean we both dont know what we are talking about.
Hey it is just opinions.
take a rest
Anybody who older than 40 years old and a football fans should know those players.
Jose Luis Brown scored Argentina's fist goal of the 86 World Cup final with a Vidic like header.
Enrique was a quality midfielder who Maradona used to play off.
marco skated his arguments. He never addressed the issue.
Him comparing the Barcelona teams of different eras is highly ignorant. you obviously think that is an education. thats your opinion which means nowt to me.
Messi is probably the greatest player of his generation. And he plays in the greatest team in a generation I dare say. He lacks nothing...All I am saying is I think Maradona and Best were better. I will concede it is unfair to compare players from different eras. But you cant help doing that when you have seen these players.
Jopub seems to share the same opinion.
I suppose that mean we both dont know what we are talking about.
Hey it is just opinions.
take a rest
so you take one single bit of the lot of things i said "maradona played for barcelona" and avoid responding the rest
right, and i'm an idiot
btw, please explain me why messi will suffer against stoke in a cold winter night
he will forget his socks? or he will take the short sleeves shirt? or they don't have lights at britannia stadium?
do you know how cold gets in some parts of spain? parts where messi had played? or how cold it gets in rosario, where messi was born and lived for almost 15 years?
and, guess what sport he loved to practice in rosario when he was less than 15 years?
football!!!!!!!! and i think he also played during winter time
oh dear.did you re read my post and yours?
I'm not going to waste my time with someone who is this ignorant and just trade abuse.
exactly! and they were very good, in fact, if they had played now, i'm certain we would have threads about them wondering if they will be of manchester united quality
did you re read my post and yours?
much to your shame, we all did
but you have the chance to delete them, don't miss it
fair points.
The Barcelona team point is relevant.
But the others you raised about what Maradona won and what Messi has won, I did address.
My point in this 'discussion' has not been about what these players achieved with the various team they played with. It is what I consider to be who the more skillful player is. It is what I consider what they brought to the teams they played in.I will agree it is a subjective matter.
Messi as great a player he is play, currently plays in probably the best team in a generation.
How will he fare in a less 'great' team? we dont know.
The Stoke argument is more my saying the English league is a totally different kettle of fish to other leagues. It is my opinion and I respect yours about what you just pointed out.
That is why there is no universal
did you re read my post and yours?
I'm not going to waste my time with someone who is this ignorant and just trade abuse.
Ah yes, the classic way of excusing yourself out of an argument when you've got the grand total of feck all to say. Well played sir. You still haven't said in what way you think Messi lags behind Maradona and Best as an individualist, or what 'skills' he needs to develop to be compared with them. Never mind, let's just conveniently forget that..
stop being obtuse. btw did you agree with him calling names mod?
i'm sorry, i was being sarcastic
but you call me idiot
anyway, about messi and stoke, what does stoke defenders have that vidic, ferdinand, park, evra and rafael havent
or arsenal defenders?
in the last three years almost every time he played against english side his suffering was minimal
in fact, think of the three last CL barcelona won, and you¡ll see that the three of them was against english sides
and in the three of them it was a well deserved victory
i'm sorry, i was being sarcastic
but you call me idiot
anyway, about messi and stoke, what does stoke defenders have that vidic, ferdinand, park, evra and rafael havent
or arsenal defenders?
in the last three years almost every time he played against english side his suffering was minimal
in fact, think of the three last CL barcelona won, and you¡ll see that the three of them was against english sides
and in the three of them it was a well deserved victory
no worries mate
absolutely not diminishing what Barcelona have achieved nor the contribution of Messi. That is why I found yesterday's defeat harder. Because on one hand you have to admire the pure football abilities.
The comparison of past players is only partially possible if you take into consideration the times they played in. Maradona and Best were absolutely kicked all over. Messi is fortunate not to play in such circumstances.
As I have said earlier, when Messi beats a player..at times he reminds me of Best. He reminds me less of Maradona. Maradona could really only use his left foot. His goal against Belgium I think just was magical. Two players and the goalie and he beats them all??
damn.
The argument if Messi had to play in the English league will always come up for those of us who say this league is the best or hardest..whatever.
it may be fair or unfair on how you look at it. It is interesting to get the Spanish view.
But one thing that greatly helps Messi now is playing in such a wonderful team as Barcelona.
btw when I saw Argentina in that friendly against the US...I just felt immediately..I am watching the next world champions. That I would love to see. a player such as Messi carrying that world cup.
Why is it always Stoke though?
I've rarely seen a player put Vidic on his arse like Messi.
Why is it always stoke that sets the bar and not the best teams in England?
Why does Stoke carry the flag for the premier league
I've rarely seen a player put Vidic on his arse like Messi.
Why is it always stoke that sets the bar and not the best teams in England?
Why does Stoke carry the flag for the premier league
Stoke are flavour of the month. It was Bolton a couple of years ago when Big Sam was up there.
This thing about Best or Maradona being more talented is not what matters. It's about achievement, what you actually do. Messi is catching up to Maradona rather quickly.
This thing about Best or Maradona being more talented is not what matters. It's about achievement, what you actually do. Messi is catching up to Maradona rather quickly.
I can't possibly fanthom anybody being more talented than Lionel Messi (except Edwards from what I've read, it will be a long long time untill somebody produces a cl final performance like the Argentine did, especially against a club as great as ours) but talent is very subjective so everyone has a differing opinion.
The Stoke example and the league thing (is that the Spanish or Champions League?) are a load of bollocks. The point however is (and why people keep on citing the international success criteria), how much of an impact would playing for a team which isn't the best of its generation have on Messi's performances?
To be fair Marcos, Italy wasn't exactly the place to go and score goals when Maradona was floating around and right now, Spain are probably the easiest out of the big four to score goals in. I think its fair to say they'd meet half way on goals scored.
'dona was never a supreme goal scorer in Europe so I don't understand how we can predict he will transform into one playing in this side.
As we all know there's only 2 players in Laliga doing it so it's not a given.
He may have spent more time assisting, it's strange to just assume Maradona would carry Messi's goal scoring burden.
To be fair this whole thread is based on assumptions, it's even an assumption that Maradona would be as good as Messi is for Barca in the first place as Messi is their greatest ever player.
More relevant to the Messi / Maradona discussion are the relevant goal averages from the domestic leagues:
1986/87 Serie A..............1.92
2010/11 La Liga..............2.74
1980s and 1990s Serie A was an era when defence was king: Como finished comfortably mid-table netting just 16 goals all season in 86/87; Milan won the title with 36 goals in 93/94. When there are almost 50% more goals during the course of a season, comparing goalscoring records is an almost pointless exercise.
Those who claim Pele is the greatest do so knowing he played for a brilliant international side, and a non to shoddy Santos side (who mostly played uncompetitive football, in the sub standard state league, or European friendlies)
Barca are partly the best of their generation because they have Messi. They'd still be a very good team without him, but not mopping up the way they are now. None of the great players of all time played for shoddy teams, not even Maradona
put Burruchaga into that equation, and that were a very good Argentina side. However, we must understand Maradona played in an era where defenders were brutal and tackling from behind is legal.
Messi is definitely out of this world when he is on song but on a one-on-one basis, Maradona in his prime is still better than Messi of today.
mmm opened up a can of worms I see
My Stoke (could be the old Middlsbro etc Bolton under Big Sam etc etc) comments were a little tongue in cheek but I will stand by them and explain them too.
My feelings about Messi are not based at all on his personal abilities as a footballer. That's another subject for me and even in that respect I feel he is Maradona's inferior, but later.
Era
What is out of Messi's control is the age in which he is playing and I did state that in my earlier post. He is playing now in an era of 'football adventure' where to create and attack is king and frankly if you are of that nature it will be a little easier than playing back in the 60's/70's/'80's when defenders could legally kick the shit out of you the whole game.
Defenders now are not king you fking breathe on somebodys arse and your carded lift a foot ooff the floor and its the 'two footed leg breakers' are ruining the game brigade out in full force. Attacking players are protected by the ref more an more to the point where its difficult to see what is a legal fking tackle any more.
Messi benefits hugely from this alone. Best Pele Maradona Cruyff had to deal with complete thugs trying to take them out of the game every fking wend and it was okay for them to do so
I cant help it if the younger lot on here have never seen the crumpled heaps that Best became as another thunderous 'tackle' left him up against the wall outside the touchline. Its not my (or Messi's) fault that Messi does not have not contend with any of that for a second in the game today and its a huge huge difference to how today an attacking player can produce what he does
im happy that Lionel does not have ot contend with that kind of brutality every game, every fking game but then again it would also be a happy medium if the tackling was not as diluted a sits become. Messi benefits from this massively as do Xavi and Iniesta
La Liga / competitiveness
Playing in La Liga is a bit of a carnival for the best players is'nt it? I'll stand by my earlier point that that the bottom 8 sides in that league would struggle to get out of the Championship we have here. That hardly makes it competitive?
How often does a top striker get near to 40 goals in this country? Ronaldo is about it I think. Truly great achievement that against sides that can defend and get in your face from 10th position to the last.
Look at the annual relegation dogfight every year in the PL - until the last game every year the bottom 6/7 clubs are in it up to their necks
La Liga sorry but to coin a phrase competitively 'its not even in the same league'
If anybody is going to say Lionel Messi does not benefit from that lack of competitiveness then they're bonkers
That's two huge aspects that give the already brilliant genius that is Messi a big helping hand
And genius he is because you have got be to take advantage of those things being in place to produce your best nomatter and credit where its due he does
Stoke / Climate
My point about 'Stoke' whoever, (you all know what kind of teams I mean)
is this. I've played some football and its far harder to get yourself up for a game on a rock hard semi frozen pile of shite than a bumpy one in 30 degrees. If you've played football in both these conditions you'll know this.
Should Barca for some reason have to play a 'Stoke' or whoever in a one off cup game in February of course they'd get 'up' for it. They should do. They'd also probably come away with a result too and Messi might add a bit of magic to help but were Messi in the PL playing under these conditions for three/four months of the year then he might not.
Climatically this is a very very different proposition from playing in Spain and I'll make this point too - How many matches in La liga are played in the mid afternoon sun?
For comfort nearly all matches are evening kickoff its a footballers fking paradise -in February !
I'd also ask this (and have not checked it out) but how well does Barca Messi fare in away games at Zenit of in Bulgaria.
I'm not saying he's not great enough do be as good as he is in those conditions but it would be interesting to see if he could do what he does in favorable Spain on a frozen bumpy pitch in February under a physical assault from Shawcross et al on a regular basis. Its not use loads of you saying "this is bollocks "it's ridiculous he would be great under anything" because you don't know.
He does play in a great side even when he's not there. That's how good they are.
Don't get us oldun's wrong - we know ability when we see it. We've not watched / played loved this game for 45 years and not learned from it. We know how good young Lionel is but we have also seen players play in surrounding that were distinctly UNsupportive of their abilities but seen them shine through. Maradona being one of them.
I just feel everything is set up for Messi to be so good and although blessed with incredible gifts Id like to see him doing it in less favourable scenarios.
That's why he HAS to do better with the national side to get anywhere near Maradona. They are certainly below Barcas league and so he needs to step up big time to live with Maradona.
He's not a one man show when he plays for Argentina - that's obvious, but the greatest players can pull up a very good side into something special and that is what he has not yet done. In Italy 90 Maradona nearly pullled off the most incredible feat in getting Argentina to the final. Apart from him they were ordinary, really ordinary and he nearly won that trophy for them. He did similarly at Napoli. Football is a team effort and there's no such thing as the one man team but he's the nearest you'll ever see to it at a professional level
I've explained my points and hope they highlight how different it was playing at Maradona's Pele's Best's time and now.
Messi could go on and better them but you have to agree it's a bit easier for him to do it now than it was for those players
____________
Btw RDreams and I are not joined at the hip (we don't agree on everything!)
Brad, you had slipped to getting 4 / 5 out of 10 this year but now really mate it's embarrassing - you must officially be my fking stalker
2 out of 10 for this miserly effort and an awful lot of room for improvement
mmm opened up a can of worms I see
My Stoke (could be the old Middlsbro etc Bolton under Big Sam etc etc) comments were a little tongue in cheek but I will stand by them and explain them too.
My feelings about Messi are not based at all on his personal abilities as a footballer. That's another subject for me and even in that respect I feel he is Maradona's inferior, but later.
Era
What is out of Messi's control is the age in which he is playing and I did state that in my earlier post. He is playing now in an era of 'football adventure' where to create and attack is king and frankly if you are of that nature it will be a little easier than playing back in the 60's/70's/'80's when defenders could legally kick the shit out of you the whole game.
Defenders now are not king you fking breathe on somebodys arse and your carded lift a foot ooff the floor and its the 'two footed leg breakers' are ruining the game brigade out in full force. Attacking players are protected by the ref more an more to the point where its difficult to see what is a legal fking tackle any more.
Messi benefits hugely from this alone. Best Pele Maradona Cruyff had to deal with complete thugs trying to take them out of the game every fking wend and it was okay for them to do so
I cant help it if the younger lot on here have never seen the crumpled heaps that Best became as another thunderous 'tackle' left him up against the wall outside the touchline. Its not my (or Messi's) fault that Messi does not have not contend with any of that for a second in the game today and its a huge huge difference to how today an attacking player can produce what he does
im happy that Lionel does not have ot contend with that kind of brutality every game, every fking game but then again it would also be a happy medium if the tackling was not as diluted a sits become. Messi benefits from this massively as do Xavi and Iniesta
La Liga / competitiveness
Playing in La Liga is a bit of a carnival for the best players is'nt it? I'll stand by my earlier point that that the bottom 8 sides in that league would struggle to get out of the Championship we have here. That hardly makes it competitive?
How often does a top striker get near to 40 goals in this country? Ronaldo is about it I think. Truly great achievement that against sides that can defend and get in your face from 10th position to the last.
Look at the annual relegation dogfight every year in the PL - until the last game every year the bottom 6/7 clubs are in it up to their necks
La Liga sorry but to coin a phrase competitively 'its not even in the same league'
If anybody is going to say Lionel Messi does not benefit from that lack of competitiveness then they're bonkers
That's two huge aspects that give the already brilliant genius that is Messi a big helping hand
And genius he is because you have got be to take advantage of those things being in place to produce your best nomatter and credit where its due he does
Stoke / Climate
My point about 'Stoke' whoever, (you all know what kind of teams I mean)
is this. I've played some football and its far harder to get yourself up for a game on a rock hard semi frozen pile of shite than a bumpy one in 30 degrees. If you've played football in both these conditions you'll know this.
Should Barca for some reason have to play a 'Stoke' or whoever in a one off cup game in February of course they'd get 'up' for it. They should do. They'd also probably come away with a result too and Messi might add a bit of magic to help but were Messi in the PL playing under these conditions for three/four months of the year then he might not.
Climatically this is a very very different proposition from playing in Spain and I'll make this point too - How many matches in La liga are played in the mid afternoon sun?
For comfort nearly all matches are evening kickoff its a footballers fking paradise -in February !
I'd also ask this (and have not checked it out) but how well does Barca Messi fare in away games at Zenit of in Bulgaria.
I'm not saying he's not great enough do be as good as he is in those conditions but it would be interesting to see if he could do what he does in favorable Spain on a frozen bumpy pitch in February under a physical assault from Shawcross et al on a regular basis. Its not use loads of you saying "this is bollocks "it's ridiculous he would be great under anything" because you don't know.
He does play in a great side even when he's not there. That's how good they are.
Don't get us oldun's wrong - we know ability when we see it. We've not watched / played loved this game for 45 years and not learned from it. We know how good young Lionel is but we have also seen players play in surrounding that were distinctly UNsupportive of their abilities but seen them shine through. Maradona being one of them.
I just feel everything is set up for Messi to be so good and although blessed with incredible gifts Id like to see him doing it in less favourable scenarios.
That's why he HAS to do better with the national side to get anywhere near Maradona. They are certainly below Barcas league and so he needs to step up big time to live with Maradona.
He's not a one man show when he plays for Argentina - that's obvious, but the greatest players can pull up a very good side into something special and that is what he has not yet done. In Italy 90 Maradona nearly pullled off the most incredible feat in getting Argentina to the final. Apart from him they were ordinary, really ordinary and he nearly won that trophy for them. He did similarly at Napoli. Football is a team effort and there's no such thing as the one man team but he's the nearest you'll ever see to it at a professional level
I've explained my points and hope they highlight how different it was playing at Maradona's Pele's Best's time and now.
Messi could go on and better them but you have to agree it's a bit easier for him to do it now than it was for those players
____________
Btw RDreams and I are not joined at the hip (we don't agree on everything!)
Brad, you had slipped to getting 4 / 5 out of 10 this year but now really mate it's embarrassing - you must officially be my fking stalker
2 out of 10 for this miserly effort and an awful lot of room for improvement
Excellent Post, couldn't have said it better. Just look at those Maradona videos, some of the treatment he gets, not even Patrick Viera suffered at the hands of Phil Neville,, and he hacked that tree down many times.