Let me get this logic straight. Euro 2016 was undeserved due to a crap team.
Ronaldo has only won with brilliant teams.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Let me get this logic straight. Euro 2016 was undeserved due to a crap team.
Ronaldo has only won with brilliant teams.
How incredibly arrogant. That comment is so german...
The difference is only one of them has regularly performed without a very good team around him. Messi has never played with teammates nearly as bad as what Ronaldo's played with for his country throughout his career and when he's had some bad ones he's failed to perform. Which is why it's completely hilarious and mindblowing when people compare his international careers as if the expectations for their teams are anywhere near eachother...
the meltdown of mesisi fans is amazing to seeIt is so ridiculous how many people evaluate player performances.
A player has automatically played better when..
a) the player scores (then he automatically has had a good game, if he scores at least twice it's been brillant. Doesn't matter how many passes he has misplaced, how often he got dispossessed, how much he generally contributed, if it was a difficult goal to score or an easy one)
b) his team won (no matter how much influence he had on it. If they lost, he automatically has had a bad game. There is no such thing as a good performance in a losing team).
c) he managed to get his hands on an international trophy this season
d) he assists. But only the second to last contact counts, regardles of if it being a brillant pass or a cheap assist (deflected shot, two meter pass in front of an open goal..)
These kind of arguments are just so silly. Everybody understands that they are superficial bullshit but many in here use them anyway. Cheap heuristics and people are still so prone of them although they know about such biases.
You could basically write a performance evaluation algorithm that is only based on the most obvious statistics (goals, assists, own team won/lost, CL/Euro/WC winnertrue/false) and it would perfectly reflect this forum's view on the players after a game/season/whatever. Why do we even bother watching the games? We could just take a look in the live score and decide based on it. Would save us so much time.
A player has automatically played better when..
a) the player scores (then he automatically has had a good game, if he scores at least twice it's been brillant. Doesn't matter how many passes he has misplaced, how often he got dispossessed, how much he generally contributed, if it was a difficult goal to score or an easy one)
b) his team won (no matter how much influence he had on it. If they lost, he automatically has had a bad game. There is no such thing as a good performance in a losing team).
c) he managed to get his hands on an international trophy this season
d) he assists. But only the second to last contact counts, regardles of if it being a brillant pass or a cheap assist (deflected shot, two meter pass in front of an open goal..)
These kind of arguments are just so silly. Everybody understands that they are superficial bullshit but many in here use them anyway. Cheap heuristics and people are still so prone of them although they know about such biases.
You could basically write a performance evaluation algorithm that is only based on the most obvious statistics (goals, assists, own team won/lost, CL/Euro/WC winnertrue/false) and it would perfectly reflect this forum's view on the players after a game/season/whatever. Why do we even bother watching the games? We could just take a look in the live score and decide based on it. Would save us so much time.
Euro 2004 - final vs Greece
Let me get this logic straight. Euro 2016 was undeserved due to a crap team.
Ronaldo has only won with brilliant teams.
WC 2006 - semifinal vs France
Euro 2008 - quarter final vs Germany
WC 2010 - round of 16 vs Spain
Euro 2012 - semifinal vs Spain
WC 2014 - group stages
Euro 2016 - winners
Which one was a fluke? Getting knocked out despite outplaying teams (2006, 2004), ref mistakes (2008, 2010) or penalties (2012) wasn't unlucky. It wasn't unlucky to go into the 2014 World Cup with our best player injured along with 5 other starters and having Pepe get sent off after a Muller dive.
No, the only time luck played a part was when we actually won the damn thing. That one was a fluke.
People that compare us winning to what Greece did are idiots.
It’s sad and they have made a joke out of themselves. Some on here have been badly exposed but I love how frantically they are defending Messi for the most ridiculous things
We shouldn't watch the games nor check the stats, we should just pretend one player played great despite obviously not being the case and then blame everyone around him for the problems of the team despite of what actually happened.
Isn't that what you're doing by pretending Messi played well against Iceland?
Well, this is exactly how the stereotype of American sports journalism goes. Superficial metrics that shall give the impression of objectiveness, polarizing and all this stuff. I don't know if basketball, American football, ice hockey and all these sports can be analyzed with such simple approaches since I don't really watch them but with football it definitely doesn't work and if people use such arguments they deserve to be called out for it.How incredibly arrogant. That comment is so german...
Suddenly, team performances get considered? I thought if a team lost it would automatically be the fault of the superstar playing in it. At least it seemed like it wen reading this thread.
By the way, the all time top scorer of the WC is called Miroslav freaking Klose. Players can perform totally different for club and country, simple as that.
It is no comparison, it is a specification of time. I didn't say "Portugal played like Greece", I said "Portugal is the most undeserving winner since Greece 2004". This is a difference. Of course you were not as bad as them and had a much better team.
And yes, you fluked it. One can actually argue it was karma because you definitely should've won it in 2004 and I was even happy you made it since I felt for Ronaldo after his injury but all sympathies aside you were by no means the best team in this tournament. You were lucky to get into the KO rounds and you were even luckier to win the final.
What the hell? Euro 2016 was undeserved because Portugal was extremely lucky to win the title not because the players were bad. Bad sides can still be deserved winners but it wasn't like Ronaldo singlehandedly made a bad side play great (I don't even think this is possible in modern times). Ronaldo was simply part of a bad side fluking their way to the EC trophy. It was like Chelsea winning the CL. Reads great on your CV but not if you actually watched it happen.
Let me get this logic straight. Euro 2016 was undeserved due to a crap team.
Ronaldo has only won with brilliant teams.
The contempt Cristiano fans hold for his teammates is almost as much as they hold for Messi himself.
Except it's not simple and besides the stupid exaggerations like calling Messi a fraud he's actually right. There's a video in this thread of Fergie pretty much saying the same thing, was he a superficial american? Jus saying this because you're not the first person just dismissing someone's opinion due to their nationality.
No, but there's an obvious difference between a superstar that actually gave their all, performed, got everyone around him playing better and ultimately didn't have good enough teammates to win and what Messi has been for Argentina.
We were lucky like any team has to be lucky to win it. Spain got lucky in 2008 and 2012 too. Over the course of Ronaldo's career with Portugal we did not get lucky. He's played very well in 4 different Euros, he's been playing a vital part of the squad for 14 years now, carrying us by himself very often to a point where I'm fully convinced that with any other player in football history we wouldn't have had better results than the ones we've had in this period and people here are trying to tell me all he's done isn't actaully that impressive because he was born in Portugal instead of France or Argentina where he would have had enough support to actually take them even higher.
People who compare Messi's and Ronaldo's international achievements as if Argentina's and Portugal's squads have been close in quality is the only unfair thing that gets repeatedly thrown around.
This post was written before the World Cup started and it pretty much sums up why things have gone the way they have so far.
I said before the World Cup started that I wouldn't trade 2008-10 Ronaldo for current Ronaldo, 2008-10 Ronaldo scored as much, dribbled more, created more... but current Ronaldo is better for the team. Not just the Portugal team but any team.
Judging players on their skillset is not an accurate way of seeing the sport.
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All things considered Ronaldo is the better winner and athlete ,I don't believe messi loves the sport as much as Ronaldo does.
Yep.
According to Messi fans, the nearly undefeated Barcelona squad were terrible and carried by Messi only & the #5 world ranked Argentine squad doesn’t have quality players and carried by Messi also.
Don’t you just love narratives
Thats a brilliant post.
Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard.
That’s Ronaldo for you. If things aren’t going his way he’ll muscle out a way. His work ethic and mentality is head and shoulders above anyone.
That’s one of the best posts I’ve ever read on any football forum, let alone here. Bravo.
@totaalvoetbal is one of the best posters on RedCafe.
You should read up his other interesting messages here.
First, SAF didn't say the same thing. Second, I am not dismissing his opinion because he is American but because his arguments are superficial and stupid and it confirms the stereotypes attributed to American sports journalism - especially since many people in here argue in the same superficial style and that annoys me. And yes, Messi's definitely best in his Barca setup but all this "he is not compatible with other styles" stuff goes far too much. He probably wouldn't be scoring 40+ goals each season but he is still the best dribbler, passer and so on in the world by quite a margin. Definitely the best out of the Hazard, Neymar, Robben type of players and they cope pretty well in other setups. Both types, Ronaldo and Messi, are highly demanded players in all systems. You need people to score and occupy the box and you need those who can beat a man and create. I happen to value the latter higher, you seem to do the opposite.
You are arguing based on one game in which he looked defeated. He has absolutely given his all in so many matches and rescued Argentina at many occasions. This is recency bias at best.
Of course there is always some luck involved but you've been far luckier than many, many others since fortuna was on your side in many matches. That's why I said that Euros was the "biggest fluke since Greek 2004".
But that's not what I've said. The guy in the video says basically that Messi wasn't able to do it without his team mates at Barcelona and disregards that Ronaldo isn't able to make it without a world class team (or a great amount of luck as in case of the Euros 2016), too. You can argue that Messi has had a better team (on paper he had) but criticizing him for not winning the WC would mean that said team would've been so good that anything but a win was a disappointment and with all due respect to Argentina's squad, they were never the best in the world and always had very weak areas.
It's not about mentality though, it's about their different styles, the way they adapt and the effect it has on the team around them. That's the main difference.
Football is a team game, the impact a player's way of playing has on the team around them matters more than what their specific role is.
This is just an example. People say that Messi scores about as much as Ronaldo but Messi creates more. If I argue that Ronaldo is better in the air they'll just reply that's part of scoring... but football doesn't work like that. Ronaldo being great in the air does have a big effect on how the whole team will play, it makes others' roles easier, the mechanisms in the team become simpler and the team's attack gains another dimension. It's not as simple as looking at how a players skillset affects the game.
I think the way Barcelona and Argentina tried to build the team around Messi in order to go for the big trophies has failed but I don't think it failed only because the managers made some mistakes, they failed because today it is harder to build a coherent system around Messi than it is for Ronaldo and the standard of player around the team needs to be higher for Messi than it does for Ronaldo.
I honestly believe Argentina are going to become better if Messi retires after this World Cup not because he's not great (he is) but become of the effect it will have on the rest.
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I don't, that doesn't make any sense.
A player that can beat a man and create can be better than a player that scores and occupies the box... and a player that scores and occupies the box can be better than a player that can beat a man and create. Obviously...
That is such a small and nearly irrelevant description of how they play too... and I don't understand how it's even possible to have such a black and white view of football. It's nonsensical.
I agree as well.
I said a few days ago that I think the current incarnation of Ronaldo is the best one, because it's masked his weaknesses and elevated his greatest strength.
@totaalvoetbal's post sums Ronaldo vs Messi now.
Messi is a superior player, but harder to maximize and he could hinder a team more than Ronaldo currently. Though if the platform is right, Messi will dominate to a greater level than Ronaldo as shown(2014-2015 & 2010-2011).
Ronaldo is easier to maximize and easier to build a team around him.
Messi is a superior player, but harder to maximize and he could hinder a team more than Ronaldo currently. Though if the platform is right, Messi will dominate to a greater level than Ronaldo as shown(2014-2015 & 2010-2011).
Ronaldo is easier to maximize and easier to build a team around him.
Mate, Messi vs Ronaldo is the modern day Maradona vs Pele. Every angle and argument for and against each player has been covered many times over. This debate will never end and there will be no winners. Friends and family probably fall out on a daily basis over this!
Ps: Any team that wins a major tournament in my opinion deserves to win it.
Both Portugal and Argentina are 2nd tier countries, I think that both Ronaldo and Messi had bad timing because their national teams were declining as they were developing and so have had to carry their teams. Neither teams are stacked like a France or Belgium are.
Both countries have tried to build the team for their respective talismans and Portugal look more convincing which is credit to Ronaldo as well as the coaching staff and teammates.
I'm hoping Messi pulls his finger out of his arse, but unfortunately it might be too late. It would have been amazing for Argentina and Portugal to face off.
Both countries have tried to build the team for their respective talismans and Portugal look more convincing which is credit to Ronaldo as well as the coaching staff and teammates.
I'm hoping Messi pulls his finger out of his arse, but unfortunately it might be too late. It would have been amazing for Argentina and Portugal to face off.
It is. I didn't want to write a wall of text again. You should actually know by now that I don't see these things in black and white. And I acknowledge the fact that Cristiano offers his team more options since he is more versatile in his scoring patterns (e.g. through headers). I indeed think it's the best argument you ever made in this thread. Yet I think you put too much emphasis on this and are a little bit too focused on the idea that it is harder to build a system around Messi. Ronaldo is of course very adaptable and can also score "dirty" goals but Messi played successfully in at least three different positions and happily switched between them if the arrival of a new co-star or coach made it necessary. Guardiola, Enrique and now Valverde had completely different approaches and Messi shone in all of them (and also made his team mates better, ask Neymar and Suarez). It is not that hard to build a system around him.
It's not like I wouldn't understand the importance of Ronaldo's presence even if he doesn't seem to be involved. I also understand that a team like Portugal profits from Ronaldo more than they would from Messi. However, I also think that a team like Poland exemplarily would profit more from Messi in their team since they have a decent striker in Lewandowski who offers these options, too. It depends which type of player the team needs more urgently.
After all it is about preferences and I simply happen to think that the things Messi does are more difficult and important than those Ronaldo excels at. If you see it different, I'm okay with that and Ronaldo is delivering some pretty good arguments for your view.
What irks me are the arguments that I consider stupid, like team achievement, superficial goal statistics, that one had better team mates etc. I don't even want to be that involved but I read this stuff and it directly itches in my finger tips^^
If we're going by the commonly accepted rhetoric being used right now to argue Ronaldo>Messi then most people should rank Ballack higher than Messi in their all time list
Brazil italy germany are surely ahead of the rest.
Tier 2 is like Argentina, Spain, Uruguay, Netherlands, England and Portugal
Maybe a couple of those are actually tier 3 u guess
Portugal have only recently won an international trophy, have never even reached a World Cup final and for the majority of competitive international football, Portugal haven't even managed to qualify for the World Cup, with them qualifying for just over a third of the World Cups they've been eligible for.
Portugal are a Tier 4 team at best, at least historically. Since you're including Netherlands, England and Italy in your post you must mean historically too?
Tier 1 - Germany, Italy and Brazil. All have four WC titles or more and either European Championship or Copa America wins.
Tier 2: Argentina, Uruguay, France, Spain. All have won the WC and the EC/Copa, and won one of the two at least twice.
Tier 3: England, Netherlands. England have won the World Cup. Netherlands have three WC finals and a EC win.
Tier 4: Sweden, Hungary, Portugal, Denmark, Chile, Mexico.
The fact that the poll is 50/50 and we're on a site of a team whose fans adore him is another clue of who is the best betweent them. I don't even imagine how the poll would look on a Barca forum, also on every neutral forum or on a poll asking neutral fans we all know the answer, and by some distance.
Also almost all former great players (and active) all say that Messi is the better of them two, if not the best in history. Of course there is alot of revisionism going through given the fact that Messi is somewhat declining (by his standards, even though he won the double with Barca and the golden boot).
Ronaldo currently has a very good team around him that delivers even when he is absent, this doesn't happen for Messi on a club and national level where he is the focus and the driving force behind both teams. If you look at this season, Ronaldo from the home game against Juventus and onwards he was pretty absent by his standard, and even then his team won the UCL (Modric, Casemiro, Kroos is the best midfield in the world and the fullbacks are in top 3, the keeper aswell). Messi has one off game against Roma and his team goes out. The same happens at the national team (see the Euro final).
If we are talking about individual skill, Messi is always streets ahead of him, not only his goalscoring record is comparable to Ronaldo's even though Ronaldo is a striker, his playmaking abilities are from another world when compared with the portuguese.
Also almost all former great players (and active) all say that Messi is the better of them two, if not the best in history. Of course there is alot of revisionism going through given the fact that Messi is somewhat declining (by his standards, even though he won the double with Barca and the golden boot).
Ronaldo currently has a very good team around him that delivers even when he is absent, this doesn't happen for Messi on a club and national level where he is the focus and the driving force behind both teams. If you look at this season, Ronaldo from the home game against Juventus and onwards he was pretty absent by his standard, and even then his team won the UCL (Modric, Casemiro, Kroos is the best midfield in the world and the fullbacks are in top 3, the keeper aswell). Messi has one off game against Roma and his team goes out. The same happens at the national team (see the Euro final).
If we are talking about individual skill, Messi is always streets ahead of him, not only his goalscoring record is comparable to Ronaldo's even though Ronaldo is a striker, his playmaking abilities are from another world when compared with the portuguese.
GOAT, in terms of career achievements:
Club Career
League: Messi > Ronaldo
CL: Ronaldo > Messi
Verdict: tie
International Career
International tournament: Ronaldo > Messi
Verdict: Ronaldo
Individual honurs
Ballon D'or: Ronaldo (5) = Messi (5)
Golden Boot: Messi (5) > Ronaldo (4)
CL top scorer: Ronaldo (7) > Messi (5)
Verdict: tie
- Whoever wins more Ballon D'or will win this, regardless of everything else as its the only award which matters in GOAT discussion. Golden Boot (top league goal scorer across Europe) and CL top scorer also worth a mention. Other hundreds of individual awards (such as domestic player of year, UEFA best player of Europe, world soccer player of the year) shouldn't be counted here as the list are exhaustive and hard to compare)
Career stats
Club goals: Ronaldo (573) > Messi (552)
International goals: Ronaldo (85) > Messi (64)
Club Assists: Messi (212) > Ronaldo (180)
International assists: Messi (38) > Ronaldo (28)
Verdict: tie
Individual Records
Overall: Ronaldo (over 150) > Messi (over 110)
Verdict: Ronaldo
Trophies
League: Messi (9) > Ronaldo (5)
CL: Ronaldo (5) > Messi (4)
International major trophy: Ronaldo (1) > Messi (0)
Club World Cup: Ronaldo (4) > Messi (3)
domestic cups: Messi (6) > Ronaldo (5)
Total no. of trophies won (including super cups): Messi (32) > Ronaldo (27)
Verdict: tie
- Messi has won more trophies overall, more in league, domestic cups and super cups. Ronaldo has won more prestigious trophies, more in CL, international competition, and club world cup
Final Verdict (GOAT in terms of career achievement): Ronaldo > Messi
- They both have the same god-like stats, club career and trophies success. Ronaldo edge it for me as he has won more international tournament, and more CL, the best competition of modern games. From current standing, I also think he is more likely to will win his 6th Ballon D'or by end of the year.
GOAT, in terms of footballing:
Technical
Finishing: Tie
Long shots: Ronaldo?
Heading: Ronaldo
Dribbling: Messi
One-two: Messi
Crossing: Ronaldo?
Penalty: Ronaldo
Freekick: Tie?
Verdict: Messi
- In terms of goal scoring they are more or less the same, simply greatest ever. Messi is clearly better in dribbling, skills and passing, easily at GOAT level, Ronaldo is clearly better in heading and penalties. Messi wins for me.
Mental
Determination: Ronaldo
Leadership: Ronaldo
Big game mentality: Ronaldo
Anticipation: Tie?
Composure: Tie?
Decision: Tie?
Movement: Ronaldo
Vision: Messi
Work rate: Ronaldo
Teamwork: Messi
Verdict: Ronaldo
- Ronaldo has clearly better mental strength, more determined and driven, strive extraordinary well under pressure, which enables him having bigger impact on deciding those big games. There are also other attributes of mental aspect, such as anticipation, composure, movement, teamwork, work rate, vision and decision making etc, which I think they are more or less equal. But overall, Ronaldo wins for me.
Physical
Pace: Ronaldo?
Strength: Ronaldo
Stamina: Ronaldo
Athleticism: Ronaldo
Balance: Messi
Agility: Messi
Verdict: Ronaldo
- Ronaldo simply has better physicality and is probably one of the best ever athlete in football. Messi agility and balance is out of this world though. Ronaldo for me.
Final Verdict (GOAT in terms of footballing): Messi > Ronaldo?
- Now I don't have the definite conclusion. On paper Messi is better in terms of footballing technical, which is more eye-catching and enjoyable to watch. While Ronaldo is better in terms of mental and physical strength, which are also big part of football abilities and can also have similar impact on deciding games. Its subjective and down to personal preference. Traditionally, football technical always comes first, so one may argue Messi is better footballer.
Club Career
League: Messi > Ronaldo
CL: Ronaldo > Messi
Verdict: tie
International Career
International tournament: Ronaldo > Messi
Verdict: Ronaldo
Individual honurs
Ballon D'or: Ronaldo (5) = Messi (5)
Golden Boot: Messi (5) > Ronaldo (4)
CL top scorer: Ronaldo (7) > Messi (5)
Verdict: tie
- Whoever wins more Ballon D'or will win this, regardless of everything else as its the only award which matters in GOAT discussion. Golden Boot (top league goal scorer across Europe) and CL top scorer also worth a mention. Other hundreds of individual awards (such as domestic player of year, UEFA best player of Europe, world soccer player of the year) shouldn't be counted here as the list are exhaustive and hard to compare)
Career stats
Club goals: Ronaldo (573) > Messi (552)
International goals: Ronaldo (85) > Messi (64)
Club Assists: Messi (212) > Ronaldo (180)
International assists: Messi (38) > Ronaldo (28)
Verdict: tie
Individual Records
Overall: Ronaldo (over 150) > Messi (over 110)
Verdict: Ronaldo
Trophies
League: Messi (9) > Ronaldo (5)
CL: Ronaldo (5) > Messi (4)
International major trophy: Ronaldo (1) > Messi (0)
Club World Cup: Ronaldo (4) > Messi (3)
domestic cups: Messi (6) > Ronaldo (5)
Total no. of trophies won (including super cups): Messi (32) > Ronaldo (27)
Verdict: tie
- Messi has won more trophies overall, more in league, domestic cups and super cups. Ronaldo has won more prestigious trophies, more in CL, international competition, and club world cup
Final Verdict (GOAT in terms of career achievement): Ronaldo > Messi
- They both have the same god-like stats, club career and trophies success. Ronaldo edge it for me as he has won more international tournament, and more CL, the best competition of modern games. From current standing, I also think he is more likely to will win his 6th Ballon D'or by end of the year.
GOAT, in terms of footballing:
Technical
Finishing: Tie
Long shots: Ronaldo?
Heading: Ronaldo
Dribbling: Messi
First touch: Messi
Technique: Messi
Passing: MessiTechnique: Messi
One-two: Messi
Crossing: Ronaldo?
Penalty: Ronaldo
Freekick: Tie?
Verdict: Messi
- In terms of goal scoring they are more or less the same, simply greatest ever. Messi is clearly better in dribbling, skills and passing, easily at GOAT level, Ronaldo is clearly better in heading and penalties. Messi wins for me.
Mental
Determination: Ronaldo
Leadership: Ronaldo
Big game mentality: Ronaldo
Anticipation: Tie?
Composure: Tie?
Decision: Tie?
Movement: Ronaldo
Vision: Messi
Work rate: Ronaldo
Teamwork: Messi
Verdict: Ronaldo
- Ronaldo has clearly better mental strength, more determined and driven, strive extraordinary well under pressure, which enables him having bigger impact on deciding those big games. There are also other attributes of mental aspect, such as anticipation, composure, movement, teamwork, work rate, vision and decision making etc, which I think they are more or less equal. But overall, Ronaldo wins for me.
Physical
Pace: Ronaldo?
Strength: Ronaldo
Stamina: Ronaldo
Athleticism: Ronaldo
Balance: Messi
Agility: Messi
Verdict: Ronaldo
- Ronaldo simply has better physicality and is probably one of the best ever athlete in football. Messi agility and balance is out of this world though. Ronaldo for me.
Final Verdict (GOAT in terms of footballing): Messi > Ronaldo?
- Now I don't have the definite conclusion. On paper Messi is better in terms of footballing technical, which is more eye-catching and enjoyable to watch. While Ronaldo is better in terms of mental and physical strength, which are also big part of football abilities and can also have similar impact on deciding games. Its subjective and down to personal preference. Traditionally, football technical always comes first, so one may argue Messi is better footballer.
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Although Messi has two bad games so far, everything could change in his favor if he improves and Argentina smash Nigeria?
Is there any chance if both Portugal and Argentina qualify they meet each other?
Is there any chance if both Portugal and Argentina qualify they meet each other?
If Messi continues with his insipid performances in Russia, I'll regard Maradona as the better player.
The data is specifically limited to WC performances, no need for you to create false equivalences.Thank god Portugal only have a population of 10M, they barely like football and Ronaldo, like Messi, is nowhere near to have a claim as the GOAT.
Otherwise it would be extremely humiliating for them to get a 1-1 draw and finish behind them in the group.
No, I actually never said that. I just said it is hilarious that Argentina is unable to dominant Iceland, with their population of 334,000. That's smaller than most major cities in the world...it's literally like being beat by a local city team.
His peak, which was only demonstrated at the club level. Even during his peak years, he was a disaster for Argentina.
I'm struggling to follow this one. You say Ronaldo is GOAT in section one (career achievements). But then switch it to being Messi as GOAT in section 2 (footballing), even though Ronaldo is clearly superior mentally and physically under your subtitles, and is also only one attribute behind Messi technically. Does that not make Ronaldo GOAT overall?
Saying Messi had a peak lasting a decade is a massive twisting of the truth.
Messi's peak was under Guardiola, and he peaked in 11/12 within that period. I don't think Ronaldo has ever reached the level Messi reached in 11/12.
Imagine someone saying Ronaldo is at his peak now, it's blatant ignorance of the type of player he has become and how his body has deteriorated. It's a massive credit to Ronaldo that he is still competing with Messi (and arguably better) when he is so old.
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