Kroos, Modric, Nacho, Ronaldo, Marcelo (in semi and final of CL), this real Madrid team is full of people with never say die mentality. Even though I consider Pep's Barcelona to be the best team ever but in terms of individual mental strength in clutch moments there may never have been a team like this Madrid.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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I thought football was a team sport? Didn't Ronaldo scored a grand total of 4 LaLiga goals until the January? Or Carvajal being shite? Kroos not being able to make a noteworthy impact on Madrid's midfield while Modric had to carry that responsibility? Keylor Navas struggling to keep a clean sheet? Benzema and even Bale are easy scapegoats among Madridistas who never liked them anyway.
Benzema is pretty much irreplaceable in their set-up signing a replacement of Bale's caliber is easier said than done.
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Boys, it's really simple.
If you want to judge GOAT based on longevity and career, CR7 clearly wins it over Messi given the past 5 years.
If you want to judge GOAT based on "talent" or "ability," then either Ronaldo Lima or Ronaldinho clearly wins it.
In either case, Messi loses.
Now if you want to play mental gymnastics and twist and contort the facts like Liverpool, then by all means, stick by Messi. But at least be intellectually honest with yourselves.
If you want to judge GOAT based on longevity and career, CR7 clearly wins it over Messi given the past 5 years.
If you want to judge GOAT based on "talent" or "ability," then either Ronaldo Lima or Ronaldinho clearly wins it.
In either case, Messi loses.
Now if you want to play mental gymnastics and twist and contort the facts like Liverpool, then by all means, stick by Messi. But at least be intellectually honest with yourselves.
Oh dear, where’s the Messi brigade?
You guys are leaving me to defend Messi?
I don’t think Luiz Ronaldo or Ronaldinho compares with Messi in either talent or ability. He’s able to do most of what the two of them was individually great at and combined it to a greater level than either of the Brazilian ever reaches.
It's remarkable how this debate has turned massively to going Ronaldo's way recently.
He's turned it around massively with the Ballon DOr's, if he can just get the next one, that might be the last one either win.
He's turned it around massively with the Ballon DOr's, if he can just get the next one, that might be the last one either win.
I think most people, looking at their style/attributes thought Ronaldo would age a lot faster and worse than Messi. That hasn't really happened, instead he's gone through another adaptation, that's preserved his effectiveness.
The other "often said" was that Ronaldo needed his teammates, whereas Messi could do it all. That was always a nonsense, football's 11-a-side. Teams are never about one man, but teams also need to know how to use their special players and maybe Ronaldo is easier to use. It's not really about a couple of WC matches that could easily be irrelevant after the next round of games, it's more about Ronaldo surprising people by defying expectations.
Yeah, but of course the CL titles where he's showed up for virtually every big game there is helps as well. What was his knockout statistics again?
He's just so mentally strong. More of a winner than Messi, wants it more. Messi's the superior talent, but Ronaldo's drive is even bigger than Messi's. (Which again I think is why Ronaldo steps up for a Portugal side quite clearly inferior to the Argentina side while Messi shrinks on the big occasion.)
Messi has more talent than Ronaldinho and Ronaldo Lima easily.
IMO there's a lot of truth in Messi being able to shine for Barca because it's a trusted environment for him. He'll still do amazing for any team but just not on the same level while I can see Ronaldo being at his very best for any team you put him in.
Lol no. Not even close. Ronaldinho and Ronaldo Lima at their prime (albeit short) were the most devastating footballers to ever play on the pitch.
Factually wrong. Messi was never able to perform on the international stage.Oh dear, where’s the Messi brigade?
You guys are leaving me to defend Messi?
I don’t think Luiz Ronaldo or Ronaldinho compares with Messi in either talent or ability. He’s able to do most of what the two of them was individually great at and combined it to a greater level than either of the Brazilian ever reaches.
Messi was never able to perform outside of Barcelona.
In 2002 WC, Ronaldo scored the winner in the semi-final, before securing WC victory for his team by scoring 2 goals against Germany. What a winner!
Messi scored 91 goals in a calendar year at his peak. Nothing R9 or Ronaldinho did in their careers comes close to that.
Anyway, Cristiano is very close to over taking Messi in my opinion, for longevity and what they have achieved, but peak Messi was something else entirely. The best player ever at any players peak, but peak alone doesn’t determine the greatest. In that case, Pele and Maradona are 1 and 2 in that order for me.
So why can’t we mention this season? And what’s wrong with mentioning the most universally accepted stats such as total no of goals and assists, and then narrow it down to this season with total appearance (upon your request) has anything to do with being a WUM? Doesn’t makes any sense at all.
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This is the exact "mental gymnastics" that I am referring to. I only referenced R9 or Ronaldinho in terms of talent/ability, but you have conveniently shifted the goal posts to "goals scored in a single season." If you want to play that game, you will 100% lose. You want to know why?
Because Pele scored 127 goals in a single season. By that metric, Messi CANNOT be the GOAT. He is off by over 30 goals. If you want to argue that "well times are different now," well guess what? Yes, they sure are. Back in Pele's day, you did not have single teams monopolizing the top-talent that allowed players like Messi to score for fun.
Do I care that Messi scored 4 goals against CA Osasuna or a hat-trick against Almeria? Not really. There is a legitimate argument to be made - why aren't other La Liga players scoring so much against such cannon-fodder? Well the answer is simple. Barca was the best team in Spain by a mile, and Messi was the best player in La Liga at that time. Duh, obvious.
But agreeing that Messi was the best player on the best team (by far) for a few years is completely different from concluding that this makes Messi the GOAT. We need some objective, logical standard.
And as mentioned before, every objective, logical standard falls against Messi. Unless you do mental gymnastics and believe that the GOAT-criteria is "most goals scored in club competitions from 2006-2013."
Here are some other criteria:
WC goals scored - Messi falls flat on his face
Goals scored playing for other teams - Messi never ventured outside of Barca
International competitions won - Messi loses
The only statistics that make Messi look good (and he was undeniably the best player in the world for several years), are club-centric. Messi only enters the discussion for GOAT if you turn a blind-eye to every other metric and disregard achievements of players like Pele.
Compelling argument that.
Messi is a far superior creator than Ronaldo Lima, and then a far superior goalscorer to Ronaldinho. There's nothing Ronaldinho nor Ronaldo Lima do at a much higher level than Messi though.
Luiz Ronaldo was never able to perform at the CL.
You could say he was never able to perform to Messi/Cristiano level at club level.
There is, pure entertainement levels.
I've watched R9 and Ronaldinho. I'd say Messi and R9 are comfortably above Ronaldinho. Both R9 and Messi can dribble past several players and score regularly in their prime, but Messi did this for longer. Ronaldinho was a bit inconsistent compared to them despite being fantastic at showcasing his talent.
If R9's career didn't get cut short he would have been seen at least on par with Messi and Ronaldo, and probably better.
If R9's career didn't get cut short he would have been seen at least on par with Messi and Ronaldo, and probably better.
Ronaldinho and Ronaldo Lima were my idols during my youth. I still have three Ronaldinho shirts in my locker. I spent hours and hours watching their YouTube compilations and I can assure you that you will have a hard time showing me highlights of the two that I haven't seen.
When Messi stepped up the scene and took over from Ronaldinho as the undisputed best player on the planet, I was pretty salty. People began naming Messi the "Greatest of All Time" and I thought this was so short minded since only two or three years ago, Ronaldinho set the world on fire with skill moves and plays Messi simply wasn't capable of. I was thoroughly in the R10/R9 camp and I simply didn't want to admit that Messi's the better player overall and I believe the same thing happens to you.
Talentwise, there is definitely an argument that Ronaldo Lima was better than Messi. He simply had everything. Dribbled like Messi, had a finish like him and on top of that an unbelievable physique that probably even excels that of Cristiano, although Messi is a far better playmaker. The thing is, we were robbed of Ronaldo's peak. We've seen a young and inexperienced prodigy with unbelievable skills but at times flawed decision making and later an experienced and clever striker who unfortunately lost much agility and speed. Unfortunately, Ronaldo was never the same after 98. If he was allowed to utilize his full potential, I agree that we wouldn't have a GOAT discussion right now since he really was a "phenomenn".
And Ronaldinho was probably the most skilled player in the history of the game but as talented as Messi? I don't think so. He has flashier skills but Messi basically does everything Ronaldinho did just in a less "entertaining" fashion. Messi is efficient in his dribblings, passing, first touches etc. but his end product is far better. Ronaldinho's best plays are just as impressive as Messi's best plays, probably even more impressive, but Messi just does it much, much more often than Ronaldinho ever did - both throughout a game of 90 minutes as well as throughout a complete season.
So yeah, for me, Messi had definitely the highest peak of the three and is also far more consistent than the other two. It is not about how many goals he scored but also how he did it and his general game.
I love that the poll has been closed on 50-50. It allows this 'debate' to continue until the end of time.
Why are you counting Pele's goals in friendly matches to make a point.
And it was definitely easier to score back then. Football was much more attacking and less tactics were used. Pele also played for the best club in world in a regional league (there was no Brazilian league) which essentially meant that there were around 4 top clubs and the rest were shit.
Yeah, but that's subjective.
It shouldn't when it comes to Ronaldinho
Yes, although Ronaldo was “on the charge” when the poll was closed - he would have gone ahead and pulled away. Clearly whoever closed it was a Messi fanboy. #jokingnotjoking
Not much difference from la liga
Missed penalty from Ronaldo, but unlike Messi Ronaldo actually has teammates to carry the slack when he has a poor game.
Yeah but there's no metric to measure entertainment.
I might be in the minority, but I wouldn't pick watching Ronaldinho at his best live over someone like Messi.
I cannot say if you would be on the minority but give me Ronaldinho at his best over any other player bar Luis Ronaldo
I see a lot of phrases in the form of "Ronaldo closing the "gap" on Messi". 2 questions then:
1. Is this solely based on Ballon D'Or + CL count? So does the "gap" increase if Messi wins either going forward?
2. Why are those the metrics being used for evaluation of said "gap"? The argument was never on Ballon D'Or count until recently.
1. Is this solely based on Ballon D'Or + CL count? So does the "gap" increase if Messi wins either going forward?
2. Why are those the metrics being used for evaluation of said "gap"? The argument was never on Ballon D'Or count until recently.
Would have been interesting if Ronaldo went out tonight after an amazing start to the WC and Messi somehow does something extraordinary tomorrow for qualification of Argentina. A swing of opinions of taunting comments/memes would have appeared in favour of the dwarf this time around. That's how fast things change nowadays 
This. fecking Michael Owen has one.
In the interest of fairness this thread now needs 15 pages of Ronaldo bashing like Messi got after the Iceland game.
Open the poll again, It’ll swing in Messi’s favour. Then after a shite game tomorrow, it’ll swing in Ronaldo’s favour
au contraire it was always a ballon d'or related argument. messi leading 4-1 was seen as the perfect proof as to who is better.
I'll be honest, the first thought I had after that missed PK was "I wonder if the poll will open again"
Ronaldo wanted to emulate Messi today by missing a penalty
What would happen if Portugal lost today, Ronaldo would fall to second best(for some) because of one moment in the game?
Missed a penalty and almost let Portugal to go out in the first round. Not a GOAT unless Argentina gets eliminated tomorrow and then Ronaldo becomes the GOAT again.
Who is the GOAT in the meantime then, or has the GOAT accolade been placed in suspended animation? It's too hard to keep up with the trendy winds these days.
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