I love Messi but seriously hate his fans. A bunch of cnuts, ready to deride anyone and everyone on a whim.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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And Messi doesn't do this? Year after year he's the best player in almost every Clasico he plays. Last year he saved Barca's ass against Chelsea, a tie he almost singlehandedly won. He has shown up in countless big games. Listening to you one gets the impression Messi was Mesut Özil.
On the other hand, CR7 was carried from the quarters onwards by his team mates, yet you still give him credit for this title.
I think Stocar is right, you are more interested in the person and the story than in the actual sports. Which is completely fine but the discussion who is the "best" should not involve personal preferences.
And Messi doesn't do this? Year after year he's the best player in almost every Clasico he plays. Last year he saved Barca's ass against Chelsea, a tie he almost singlehandedly won. He has shown up in countless big games. Listening to you one gets the impression Messi was Mesut Özil.
On the other hand, CR7 was carried from the quarters onwards by his team mates, yet you still give him credit for this title.
I think Stocar is right, you are more interested in the person and the story than in the actual sports. Which is completely fine but the discussion who is the "best" should not involve personal preferences.
Again, that's because you don't actually watch football, but only who scored and who won. Cup competitions are largely a lottery. Football is such kind of sport where flukes and weird results are very common. Even genuinely dominant team like Barcelona at the turn of the decade often had to rely on luck to win European cups. If this recent, supposedly all conquering Madrid side were so good, they should have done much better against "also rans" in the league. No two ways about it. Truth is, they weren't really dominant neither in league nor in Europe, just had everything going their way in knockout ties, on an unprecedented scale. But who cares about actual football, it' s all about media noise and "winning".
All fans do this. Both Messi nd Ronaldo fans suck. So do Federer and Nadal fans, United and Liverpool fans, Goku and Vegeta fans, Apple and Microsoft fans and Adam and Eve fans.
It's the fan part that makes them suck. Not the object of their adulation.
As for this particular thread, I'd call it an emphatic draw.
Though the Messi fans probably do it because he's obviously much better. Eat it.
Adam and Eve?
Really? I did not mean it like that - CR7 fans will big CR7 up - call him the greatest, et al like all fans do - Messi fans - atleast the ones I know don't want to debate Messi's status as ATG - that is a given according to them which is why I find it infuriating.See what I mean? Feck off
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On a serious note. This debate is endless for a few reasons, the most important being, that it is impossible to really emprically decide which is the better player. I think both Messi and Ronaldo are good enough that neither camp can conclusively say that their favorite is better. The reason for that is, that not only are they very different players, they also have different careers. Football is a teamsport. You win as a team and you lose as a team, not always due to your contribution. And even though both Ronaldo's and Messi's teams have always been good, they have also always been different. Some of their team mates might be on form on a crucial night whilst others aren't. Football isnt played in a vacuum. There are simply way too many contributing factors to the outcome of a match to say for certain who contributed how many %.
They're both really fecking good. Realy fecking good enough to claim they're the best player of all time. And that's something that will never change and the reason this thread will never end.
And for your info. Vegeta is better than Goku, Djokovic is better than both Nadal and Federer, Adam is better than Eve (sinning cnut) and apples are better than pears.
So what happened in all those CL QF in recent years? It happens once it's just a bad day, it happens twice there's an issue, 3 times in a row he bottles a CL QF.
That's just a stupid cliche, there's a reason that only a handful of teams have won the CL in the last decade. By your logic, there'd be numerous different winners.
Barca clearly weren't as dominant as you think they were cause they resorted to disgusting playacting (remember Busquets?) and still couldn't beat Mourinho's Inter. On the other hand, you can claim Real prioritized the CL over La Liga, but the fact is they beat everyone they faced in the CL.
Hehe, cheers! Also, Goku is better than Vegeta and Federer is better than Djoko. Apples ARE better than pears. On a unrelated topic, what if there was a real life Ronaldo-Messi analogue of Gogeta?White text
On a serious note. This debate is endless for a few reasons, the most important being, that it is impossible to really emprically decide which is the better player. I think both Messi and Ronaldo are good enough that neither camp can conclusively say that their favorite is better. The reason for that is, that not only are they very different players, they also have different careers. Football is a teamsport. You win as a team and you lose as a team, not always due to your contribution. And even though both Ronaldo's and Messi's teams have always been good, they have also always been different. Some of their team mates might be on form on a crucial night whilst others aren't. Football isnt played in a vacuum. There are simply way too many contributing factors to the outcome of a match to say for certain who contributed how many %.
They're both really fecking good. Realy fecking good enough to claim they're the best player of all time. And that's something that will never change and the reason this thread will never end.
And for your info. Vegeta is better than Goku, Djokovic is better than both Nadal and Federer, Adam is better than Eve (sinning cnut) and apples are better than pears.
It's as simple as this. Anyone who uses their eyes will see that Messi is the best. Xavi and Iniesta is closer to Ronaldo than he is to Messi. Its not even close. If we use stats then Robbie Keane is better than George Best. Anyone with eyes can tell that Mesdi is by far better.
@Cal? Use your eyes mate. You've been doing it wrong all your life.
No, it isn't. It's been like every other cup competition. Most of the times a coin toss between a couple of best teams, with an occasional fluke from a relative outsider (Porto, Chelsea). One of the top teams overachieving was bound to happen, and it was always going to be Madrid. It's just such a small and random sample of games, in a sport that is often weird and unpredictable, that winning a cup competition shouldn't carry that much weight. Anyway, the fact that you rate that Madrid side as equally or even more dominant than 2009-2011 Barcelona tells everything about your grasp on football.
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Love this. Absolutely tremendous.
The fact that the great Barca side could not retain the CL is a big negative for Messi. So Messi with the best coach and the best team in history could only win 2 Cls in 4 years while Ronaldo with worse players won 4 in 5...
It ain't wrong necessarily but to the eye Messi is a better player regardless of trophies won. It's a fact he is better. Simple as.
Ronaldinho was better. So was Jay Jay Okocha, Ronaldo (before his decline), Best, Garrincha, Eusebio, etc - what's your point?
I remember you recently pointed out that Real wouldn't even have made it into the quarters if it wasn't for Cristiano. Barcelona wouldn't have done so in recent years without Messi. Even the best player are only one of 22 men on the pitch, you can't always expect an all-conquering performance of an individual in every match. What happened was that Ronaldo's team mates stepped up and Messi's didn't. For what it's worth Messi played better in the matches in which Barca went out than Cristiano in the ones he won on Madrid's way to the CL 2018. Messi still performed great in the vast majority of big games he played in the time frame you mentioned. He simply went out every single moment he was "just" good and not brillant.
And that's just cups. Only one day of bad form and you are out. Madrid had much luck to go past Bayern. The silly thing with your process of thought is that Ronaldo would be a lesser player if Karius and/or Ulreich hadn't had complete brainfarts in decisive moments.
The league's a different story though. Luck is still a factor but it equals out more.
Agreed, and the league (especially La Liga) is a couple of coin tosses between just 2 (sometimes 3) by your logic.
A lot of talk about showing up for big games. Aren’t both players a bit hit and miss in that area? They’ve had some very good performances over the years because they both play a lot of important games in latter stages of tournaments, but they’ve both had some pretty poor ones too.
Zidane was a big game player. Rivaldo was a big game player. Bale is a big game player. Iniesta is a big game player. Messi and Ronaldo are hit and miss really. Seems strange that it’s taking such a big role is peoples opinions here.
Zidane was a big game player. Rivaldo was a big game player. Bale is a big game player. Iniesta is a big game player. Messi and Ronaldo are hit and miss really. Seems strange that it’s taking such a big role is peoples opinions here.
Not really, it's just nostalgia and different standards. Both Messi and Ronaldo are incredibly consistent and both have played great in big matches numerous times.
There we go with the Messi brigade and their dismissive attitude to those who dare to disagree. Did the football world use their eyes when they voted Ronaldo the better player 7 years out of the last 12?
Messi, with one of the best managers ever and a group of team mates who are rated amongst the best ever couldn’t retain the CL. Ronaldo did it twice with some good but not as good team mates.
Messi fans and their fachts.
No. There's by default more merit in winning the league, because the sample is much greater and everyone plays the same set of games. If there was a real league competition between the top teams, that Madrid side never wins it more than once. They simply lacked quality and consistency to win week after week, and it showed in the domestic league. But a good run of form and a decent amount of luck are enough to paper over the cracks in the cups.
We are talking about a cup involving the world's elite clubs - paper over the cracks to win it twice in a row (4 times in 5-6 years) since Milan back in the 90s? Gosh, you guys are delusional.
It's a cup at the end of the day. Often decided by few details that could have gone either way. You're free to believe Madrid were an all conquering force because they won it three times in a row. My conclusion is then that you don't understand or even watch football. To each their own.
No, I don't watch football at all. I did see bits of it of Barca back in 11-12 and it put me to sleep, so I stopped.
Now it’s a problem with the cups, I wonder if Pele and Maradona will even be mentioned in GOAT conversations if not for cups.
Messi is the best - if not, then - Ballon D' Ors suck, so does the Euros, the Champions League, your eyesight, Bayern/Juve, etc etc.
The CL is definitely more prestigious. But which is more difficult depends on what you define as such. I think we generally agree that the CL involves more luck.
So, let's say a certain team is the comfortably best in the world. It's chances of winning the league are 90% and for the CL let's assume 60%.
Intuitively you'd say the CL is harder to win since the probability is lower. However, more luck also less dependent on actual ability/quality.
So you can argue the league is easier to win for the best while the CL is easier to win when you are not the best.
It is a bit like the question what his harder to accomplish: Winning a lottery or winning a nobel prize? The chances are lower to win the lottery if you are a brillant scientist but bigger if you are just an average guy.
Of couese that's a rather extreme example but it illustrates the problem.
My point is everyone of those players was better than Ronaldo but Messi is better than all them
Edit: not a Okocha but the rest have arguments. Best may have been the best ever without the drinking problems
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Involves more luck = comparing with a lottery (completely luck-based) - are you guys listening to yourselves? Is it so difficult to give credit where it's due? Anyway to each it's own.
'Messi brigade' you are the one who is deluded. From watching football Messi is simply much superior. I won't even be kind enough to compare them. I love Ronaldo for his time here but stats or no stats Messi is much much better. Its not even close.There we go with the Messi brigade and their dismissive attitude to those who dare to disagree. Did the football world use their eyes when they voted Ronaldo the better player 7 years out of the last 12?
Messi, with one of the best managers ever and a group of team mates who are rated amongst the best ever couldn’t retain the CL. Ronaldo did it twice with some good but not as good team mates.
Messi fans and their fachts.
It is funny that you say you accept different opinions but when someone has the opinion that it is not even close you do the exact opposite. You are no different to use. The things you say are triggering us as much as our opinion triggers you.There we go with the Messi brigade and their dismissive attitude to those who dare to disagree. Did the football world use their eyes when they voted Ronaldo the better player 7 years out of the last 12?
Messi, with one of the best managers ever and a group of team mates who are rated amongst the best ever couldn’t retain the CL. Ronaldo did it twice with some good but not as good team mates.
Messi fans and their fachts.
Yes, as mentioned in the gospels. End of discussion. /thread.
What Gospels? God don't exist dude
Except heading Messi is better at everything and now free kicks too
You do realize I specifically mentioned that this is an extreme example that only should illustrate the general mechanism? I think you secretly want us to say silly things so that you can be offended by them.
Zidane lost the first 3 big finals he played, the UEFA Cup final with Bordeaux and then twice with Juve the CL. If Messi or Ronaldo had that record on their CV, we'd never hear the end of it. Yet Zidane is hailed as the ultimate big game player despite the fact that he lost more big finals than he actually won. The CL final against Dortmund was especially shocking considering the mighty Paul Lambert had him in his pocket.
Here's my monthly post -
Aside from the gut instinct test (which Ronaldo doesn't pass for most people), the major problem with the claim that Ronaldo is better than Messi is that it contains the implicit assumption that he's a contender for the best ever. And that definitely doesn't pass the gut instinct test.
Aside from the gut instinct test (which Ronaldo doesn't pass for most people), the major problem with the claim that Ronaldo is better than Messi is that it contains the implicit assumption that he's a contender for the best ever. And that definitely doesn't pass the gut instinct test.
Why can't any discussion about Ronaldo/Messi be a discussion only without getting personal? I don't want anything let alone secretly. I want a discussion (a factual one at that) - not a bunch of guys stating someone is the best if only we had 'eyes' to see, CLs are a lottery, etc.
Positioning, shooting/finishing, long-range efforts, free-kicks (all time), dribbling (post RM CR7 - it's debatable - haven't seen many as good as Messi even CR7 if you look at entire careers), mentality, heading, penalties, crossing. What did I miss?
Says kidbob?
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