Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Peyroteo]

Ronaldo is simultaneously the most high profile player in the world and the most misunderstood one. The fact he's been dominating the sport for over a decade and most fans do not understand what is it that makes him that good as a player is incredible.

He could score half the goals he scores and be better than anyone else not called Messi. Incredible amounts of propaganda and straight up ignorance about the sport have been the way to fight it, not anything else.

It's like arguing Federer is better than Djokovic because he's a better server, has a better forehand, better dropshots, better volleys, better at the net and because 'by watching them you can clearly see who the better player is'. Difference is that even though that's an individual sport, Djokovic will better him at everything soon enough and you'll get the exact same type of romantic idiots with closeminded visions of what the sport is as Messi does... and tennis is an individual sport! If it was a team sport you could blame it on 'luck', 'teammates', etc. while disregarding their performances, results and the impact they had on them throughout the entirity of their careers. Djokovic will get it anyway though even though it's an individual sport, that's what being more likeable and having a better image does to you in modern sports.

 

[Pocho]

Ronaldo is a fantastic goalscorer, nobody can deny that.

 

[MuranoLover]

Just look his second today - no space , no vision , unstoppable shot

 

[Paxi]

The fact you can't think of any other attributes that make up a player says it all really. The ignorance here really is incredible.

What are you talking about? I said that in my opinion Ronaldo is better than Messi in only his physical attributes and heading ability, which is hardly controversial opinion is it?

 

[Schneckerl]

Being a better technical footballer doesn't make you a better football player.

That's something all these hipster Messi fans badly need to learn.

Football is getting infested with people from countries without football tradition.

The Ronaldo vs Messi wouldn't even exists in the 70s or 80s. Social media is also a factor of course.

 

[Cal?]

When Ronaldo can appear 4 times in a game and scores 3 goals vs Atletico I don't read you here calling "flawed analysis" if we compare him to Messi going into midfield to create without scoring

Titles, and goals (better scoring ratio per game)

"Ronaldo was voted Ballon d'Or 5 years, whether he was is very debatable"

We all can reduce this debate at that absurd level.

Why Atletico? Why not Bayern or Juve? The fact is Ronaldo's big game record regardless of how you define it is much much better due to his significantly better record in the CL knockout stage where the big teams play.

The Ballon D'or has Ronaldo the better player 7 out of the last 12 years.

 

[Zehner]

Why Atletico? Why not Bayern or Juve? The fact is Ronaldo's big game record regardless of how you define it is much much better due to his significantly better record in the CL knockout stage where the big teams play.

The Ballon D'or has Ronaldo the better player 7 out of the last 12 years.

I already posted a statistic that showed that Messi's goal record against top teams is better than Cristiano's. Only against Bayern and Juve he takes the lead.

 

[Cal?]

It's not possible to concede that Ronaldo is a better footballer than Messi because he just isn't. You cannot concede that because it palpably isn't the case. That's why there are countless current and former professionals literally queuing up to say that Messi is not only the best player in the world, but the greatest footballer ever. Google it, if somehow you've missed this. If you can't use Google, I'll happily make a list for you!

I have actually seen Ronaldo play in the flesh far more than Messi for United, in fact I'm sure I've seen him play more in the flesh than virtually everyone that has contributed to this thread. There is no doubt in my mind that he is the best player ever to play for Man United, and there is equally no doubt that he is a truly great player.

There is absolutely no problem with conceding that because it's obvious. It's as obvious as the fact that Messi is far superior technically, does more on the field of play, and is just clearly the better footballer. As I said, this is why so many players, former players, pundits, journalists, and objective observers deem Messi to be the greatest player ever, let alone the best player in the world.

There we go again with the typical Messi brigade respsonse, they're so sure of themselves and have only come to educate everyone else.

Well, it turns out that it's precisely the ability to control the ball and find spaces in impossible positions what allows Messi to create such high percentage chances and to score so efficiently. Not to mention the dimension of playmaking, where it's not even a contest.

That's why those are seen as the fundamental footballing skills and are valued more than off the ball movement or athleticism. Not because they're easier on the eye, but because they're more valuable.

If Messi dribbles and loses possession, whilst Ronaldo shoots and the shot was saved. How was what Messi did any more efficient?

 

[Cal?]

I already posted a statistic that showed that Messi's goal record against top teams is better than Cristiano's. Only against Bayern and Juve he takes the lead.

Perhaps if you include Arsenal and Milan in your big teams and leave out Bayern & Juve.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Perhaps if you include Arsenal and Milan in your big teams and leave out Bayern & Juve.

Doesn't Messi have more goals against the top 6 in the PL than Ronaldo?

 

[Stocar]

Messi dribbles and loses possession, whilst Ronaldo shoots and the shot was saved. How was what Messi did any more efficient?

He would still be the player that creates more chances and is himself more efficient at scoring goals. And, to entertain your desperate argument, he's also much better at keeping the ball.

 

[Zehner]

Perhaps if you include Arsenal and Milan in your big teams and leave out Bayern & Juve.

Doesn't matter if you say top 4 or top 10, Messi has more. If you only include the last CL finalists (Barca, Real, Juve, Bayern, Atletico) Messi still beats Ronaldo in total. You are wrong, plain and simple.

 

[Cal?]

He would still be the player that creates more chances and is himself more efficient at scoring goals. And, to entertain your desperate argument, he's also much better at keeping the ball.

So losing possession by dribbling = chance creation?

My point is that shot to goal percentage is utterly pointless.

 

[Prometheus]

Football is getting infested with people from countries without football tradition.

The Ronaldo vs Messi wouldn't even exists in the 70s or 80s. Social media is also a factor of course.

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[Cal?]

Doesn't matter if you say top 4 or top 10, Messi has more. If you only include the last CL finalists (Barca, Real, Juve, Bayern, Atletico) Messi still beats Ronaldo in total. You are wrong, plain and simple.

So you're going to pad Messi's total using CDR and Super Cups?

One quick look at the CL stats tell the whole story.

 

[Kush]

It's not possible to concede that Ronaldo is a better footballer than Messi because he just isn't. You cannot concede that because it palpably isn't the case. That's why there are countless current and former professionals literally queuing up to say that Messi is not only the best player in the world, but the greatest footballer ever. Google it, if somehow you've missed this. If you can't use Google, I'll happily make a list for you!

I have actually seen Ronaldo play in the flesh far more than Messi for United, in fact I'm sure I've seen him play more in the flesh than virtually everyone that has contributed to this thread. There is no doubt in my mind that he is the best player ever to play for Man United, and there is equally no doubt that he is a truly great player.

There is absolutely no problem with conceding that because it's obvious. It's as obvious as the fact that Messi is far superior technically, does more on the field of play, and is just clearly the better footballer. As I said, this is why so many players, former players, pundits, journalists, and objective observers deem Messi to be the greatest player ever, let alone the best player in the world.

If it was as clear cut as you make it out to be this thread wouldn't have had such mileage and it has nothing to do with Ronaldo being a former United player. This debate isn't only restricted to this forum.

Post like yours as part of the problem as they are so closed minded it leaves out any room for debate, even though you may not like to hear it isn't as obvious as you make it out to be. When it comes to greatest ever, in any sport there are number of candidates rather than just one. Take tennis for example, Roger Federer is deemed as GOAT by most fans, former players, pundits, journalists, etc. but that debate is still raging with Djokovic and Nadal gunning for that tag. If we were to judge by all the metrics you laid out, (technically superior, does more on the court, is just clearly the better player) Federer would be far and above the rest leaving little room for debate but that obviously isn't the case. Even the most die-hard Federer fans know his status as GOAT isn't as cut and dry because Djokovic and Nadal themselves while having a different style of play have achieved as much as if not more than him.

Same applies in this scenario, I've little doubt in my mind Messi was a much better player than Ronaldo at his peak but his status as runaway GOAT has been muddied after what Ronaldo has achieved in the last 5 years. Winning 4 Ballon d'ORs while doing 3peat and a European Championship puts him in contention much to displeasure of many fans like you.

Anyways, I've absolutely no interest in debating who is better. I'm just replying to you because I think there is a legitimate argument to be made in Ronaldo's favor. That's all.

 

[Tommy]

So losing possession by dribbling = chance creation?

My point is that shot to goal percentage is utterly pointless.

It's such a shallow statistic that doesn't tell anywhere near the full story. There's so many variables that have to be taken into consideration that a simple conversion stat doesn't do anything at all.

Like, Rickie Lambert had one of the best pen conversion rates in history, but which of the pens actually mattered? Had something legitimate on the line? Would you rate his pen skills higher than someone who had a slightly lower %, but scored one in a CL/WC/Euro final? Not me, personally.

 

[Zehner]

So you're going to pad Messi's total using CDR and Super Cups?

One quick look at the CL stats tell the whole story.

Tells enough how you are searching for extremely specific circumstances in which your darling has a better goal talley and then pretend these circumstances are everything that counts.

 

[Tommy]

So you're going to pad Messi's total using CDR and Super Cups?

One quick look at the CL stats tell the whole story.

Doesn't Messi have a higher GPG & APG average in the CL than Ronaldo? There's still a few years between them for the lil guy to catch up & potentially surpass.

 

[Cal?]

It's such a shallow statistic that doesn't tell anywhere near the full story. There's so many variables that have to be taken into consideration that a simple conversion stat doesn't do anything at all.

Like, Rickie Lambert had one of the best pen conversion rates in history, but which of the pens actually mattered? Had something legitimate on the line? Would you rate his pen skills higher than someone who had a slightly lower %, but scored one in a CL/WC/Euro final? Not me, personally.

Glad we agree on this.

If one player only ever shots when the ball is given to him on the line and achieves 100% conversion, does that make him a great player?

It's like LVG's possession for the sake of possesion.

 

[Cal?]

Tells enough how you are searching for extremely specific circumstances in which your darling has a better goal talley and then pretend these circumstances are everything that counts.

Messi's record in the CL in recent years is so poor that the likes of you need to downplay the importance of the biggest trophy in club football and resort to talking up the importance of the CDR.

 

[Cal?]

Doesn't Messi have a higher GPG & APG average in the CL than Ronaldo? There's still a few years between them for the lil guy to catch up & potentially surpass.

I doubted, Ronaldo's lead is that big already.

Also I think Ronaldo will retire after Messi.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

What on earth are you talking about?

Think he means that beyond Portuguese and United fans, it tends to be Americans that favour Ronaldo, where their popular sports place higher emphasis on athleticism and they culturally celebrate good looks and success more than other countries.

 

[Stocar]

So losing possession by dribbling = chance creation?

What on earth are you talking about. Messi is less reliant on others for getting into goal chances, is at least equally efficient at converting them to goals, and is much more proficient at creating the chances for others.

i guess you're insinuating that he's perhaps as wasteful because he may be losing the ball more while dribbling. But that is ridiculous. Messi is by far the best in the world at keeping the ball in the final third. That's a whole dimension of play that very few players possess, and Messi is the best at it. And you're trying to somehow to make it a flaw and equate it to taking shots from bad positions. Incredible.

The bottom line is that he's the better player. He would still be the better player if his team hadn't won a single glorified cup trophy. It's that obvious, even all those stats are not necessary.

 

[Camara]

Doesn't matter if you say top 4 or top 10, Messi has more. If you only include the last CL finalists (Barca, Real, Juve, Bayern, Atletico) Messi still beats Ronaldo in total. You are wrong, plain and simple.

CL goals vs Barça, Real, Juve, Bayern, Atletico

Messi: 0 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 0 = 8
Ronaldo: 0 + 0 + 10 + 9 + 4 = 23

La Liga goals vs Barça, Real, Atletico

Messi: 0 + 18 + 23 = 41
Ronaldo: 9 + 0 + 12 = 21

Copa del Rey goals vs Barça, Real, Atlético

Messi: 0 + 0 + 5 = 5
Ronaldo: 5 + 0 + 6 = 11

Supercopa goals vs Barça, Real, Atlético

Messi: 0 + 6 + 0 = 6
Ronaldo: 4 + 0 + 0 = 4


Messi Total = 60
Ronaldo Total: 59

Given that Messi played longer in Spain (so had more games vs Real and Atlético) Ronaldo seems more clinical, specially given that most of his goals came in CL knockout stages.
Also the quality of teams vary, Atlético 10 years ago was mehish while for example Man United was a top 5 team.

 

[Pocho]

What on earth are you talking about?

He's got a point.

 

[MADReaLJL]

Just look his second today - no space , no vision , unstoppable shot

It was poor from Neto. If De Gea conceeded that kind of goal he'd been vindicated here

 

[Pocho]

CL goals vs Barça, Real, Juve, Bayern, Atletico

Messi: 0 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 0 = 8
Ronaldo: 0 + 0 + 10 + 9 + 4 = 23

La Liga goals vs Barça, Real, Atletico

Messi: 0 + 18 + 23 = 41
Ronaldo: 9 + 0 + 12 = 21

Copa del Rey goals vs Barça, Real, Atlético

Messi: 0 + 0 + 5 = 5
Ronaldo: 5 + 0 + 6 = 11

Supercopa goals vs Barça, Real, Atlético

Messi: 0 + 6 + 0 = 6
Ronaldo: 4 + 0 + 0 = 4


Messi Total = 60
Ronaldo Total: 59

Given that Messi played longer in Spain (so had more games vs Real and Atlético) Ronaldo seems more clinical, specially given that most of his goals came in CL knockout stages.
Also the quality of teams vary, Atlético 10 years ago was mehish while for example Man United was a top 5 team.

Messi not being a goalsocorer has better goal record, damn

 

[Cal?]

What on earth are you talking about. Messi is less reliant on others for getting into goal chances, is at least equally efficient at converting them to goals, and is much more proficient at making the chances for others.

i guess you're insinuating that he's perhaps as wasteful because he may be losing it more while dribbling. But that is ridiculous. Messi is by far the best in the world at keeping the ball in the final third. That's a whole dimension of play that very few players possess, and Messi is the best at it. And you're trying to somehow to make it a flaw and equate it to taking shots from bad positions. Incredible.

The bottom line is that he's the better player. He would still be the better player if his team didn't win a single glorified cup trophy. It's that obvious, even those stats are not necessary.

I was very specific in my question. I did not ask you what you think of Messi's ball retention or whatever.

If Messi dribbles from 30 yards out and gets tackled, whereas Ronaldo shoots from 30 yards out and his shot got saved. Why would what Messi did be any more efficient?

I was specifically talking about shot-to-goal ratio being an utterly useless statistic.

As for the bolded part, typical Messi brigade response.

 

[Cal?]

CL goals vs Barça, Real, Juve, Bayern, Atletico

Messi: 0 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 0 = 8
Ronaldo: 0 + 0 + 10 + 9 + 4 = 23

La Liga goals vs Barça, Real, Atletico

Messi: 0 + 18 + 23 = 41
Ronaldo: 9 + 0 + 12 = 21

Copa del Rey goals vs Barça, Real, Atlético

Messi: 0 + 0 + 5 = 5
Ronaldo: 5 + 0 + 6 = 11

Supercopa goals vs Barça, Real, Atlético

Messi: 0 + 6 + 0 = 6
Ronaldo: 4 + 0 + 0 = 4


Messi Total = 60
Ronaldo Total: 59

Given that Messi played longer in Spain (so had more games vs Real and Atlético) Ronaldo seems more clinical, specially given that most of his goals came in CL knockout stages.
Also the quality of teams vary, Atlético 10 years ago was mehish while for example Man United was a top 5 team.

Let's be generous and assume At Madrid became a top side in 12/13 (they finished 3rd, 11/12 they finished 5th behind Malaga).

Messi's 23 La Liga goals, 15 came before 12/13.

Ronaldo also has 5 goals against AM before 12/13.

 

[Camara]

Doesn't Messi have more goals against the top 6 in the PL than Ronaldo?

CL goals vs Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal

Messi: 2 + 6 + 0 + 3 + 2 + 9 = 22
Ronaldo: 3 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 4 + 2 = 12

PL goals vs Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal

Ronaldo: 0 + 3 + 2 + 0 + 4 + 4 = 13

FA Cup goals vs Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal

Ronaldo: 0 + 1 + 0 + 0 + 2 + 0 = 3


Messi total: 22
Ronaldo total: 28

Given that Ronaldo played more games vs big 6 it's normal he has more

 

[Fridge chutney]

Maybe it's because there are plenty more things that make up a football player, not just a select group of handpicked attributes and misused stats the fanboys and romantics choose to glorify and wank themselves silly over? Maybe.

I hope you're being ironic accusing others of fanboyism!

 

[Pocho]

CL goals vs Barça, Real, Juve, Bayern, Atletico

Messi: 0 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 0 = 8
Ronaldo: 0 + 0 + 10 + 9 + 4 = 23

La Liga goals vs Barça, Real, Atletico

Messi: 0 + 18 + 23 = 41
Ronaldo: 9 + 0 + 12 = 21

Copa del Rey goals vs Barça, Real, Atlético

Messi: 0 + 0 + 5 = 5
Ronaldo: 5 + 0 + 6 = 11

Supercopa goals vs Barça, Real, Atlético

Messi: 0 + 6 + 0 = 6
Ronaldo: 4 + 0 + 0 = 4


Messi Total = 60
Ronaldo Total: 59

Given that Messi played longer in Spain (so had more games vs Real and Atlético) Ronaldo seems more clinical, specially given that most of his goals came in CL knockout stages.
Also the quality of teams vary, Atlético 10 years ago was mehish while for example Man United was a top 5 team.

Manchester United, City, Chelsea, Inter, Arsenal? They don't count?

 

[Paxi]

CL goals vs Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal

Messi: 2 + 6 + 0 + 3 + 2 + 9 = 22
Ronaldo: 3 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 4 + 2 = 12

PL goals vs Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal

Ronaldo: 0 + 3 + 2 + 0 + 4 + 4 = 13

FA Cup goals vs Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal

Ronaldo: 0 + 1 + 0 + 0 + 2 + 0 = 3


Messi total: 22
Ronaldo total: 28

Given that Ronaldo played more games vs big 6 it's normal he has more

City and Tottenham were shite when Ronaldo was playing for United.

 

[Camara]

Manchester United, City, Chelsea, Inter, Arsenal? They don't count?

I was answering to Zehner as he asked the last 6 finalists of CL so I gathered the data, if you want you can get the other ones.

 

[Cal?]

Manchester United, City, Chelsea, Inter, Arsenal? They don't count?

Inter & Arsenal? Do they really belong to that group?

 

[Cal?]

CL goals vs Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal

Messi: 2 + 6 + 0 + 3 + 2 + 9 = 22
Ronaldo: 3 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 4 + 2 = 12

PL goals vs Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal

Ronaldo: 0 + 3 + 2 + 0 + 4 + 4 = 13

FA Cup goals vs Manchester United, Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham, Arsenal

Ronaldo: 0 + 1 + 0 + 0 + 2 + 0 = 3


Messi total: 22
Ronaldo total: 28

Given that Ronaldo played more games vs big 6 it's normal he has more

None of us would have tried to use this to claim Ronaldo is better.

The Messi brigade will stop at nothing, the only reason Messi has a better record against the so called "recent CL finalists" is due to his 15 goals against them when they were shite.

 

[Stocar]

If Messi dribbles from 30 yards out and gets tackled, whereas Ronaldo shoots from 30 yards out and his shot got saved. Why would what Messi did be any more efficient?

For starters, Messi doesn't lose the ball in that way as much. As I said, his ability to keep it in final third and dribbling efficiency through the middle is unparalleled.

But let me again entertain your argument. No, it's not the same. Messi with the ball at his feet at 30 yards means defenders commiting and defense being disrupted, since he is incredibly creative from those areas. That allows teammates to get in good positions, and Messi is quite good at finding them.

So while he may sometimes lose the ball in these positions (certainly less than any other player in such situations), the benefits for the team far outweigh the negatives. That's footballing creativity.

On the other hand, taking speculative shots from 30 yards is relatively easy to defend and generally wasteful. In many cases it doesn't disrupt the defense, but the attacking team's spacing and movement. That's the big difference.

 

[Cal?]

For starters, Messi doesn't lose the ball in that way as much. As I said, his ability to keep it in final third and dribbling efficiency through the middle is unparalleled.

But let me again entertain your argument. No, it's not the same. Messi with the ball at his feet at 30 yards means defenders commiting and defense being disrupted, since he is incredibly creative from those positions. That allows teammates to get in good positions, and Messi is quite good at finding them.

So while he may sometimes lose the ball in these positions (certainly less than any other player in such situations), the benefit for the team far outweighs the negatives. That's footballing creativity.

On the other hand, taking speculative shots from 30 yards is generally easy to defend and wasteful. In many cases it doesn't disrupt the defense, but the attacking team's spacing and movement. That's the big difference.

The fact remains they have a comparable scoring record and the ultimate aim to a football game is to score.

Taking speculative shots from 30 yards can easily result in the keeper spilling the save and presenting a great chance to other forwards.

Anyway, my point was about the uselessness of the shots-to-goal ratio.

 

[Stocar]

The fact remains they have a comparable scoring record and the ultimate aim to a football game is to score.

Taking speculative shots from 30 yards can easily result in the keeper spilling the save and presenting a great chance to other forwards.

Anyway, my point was about the uselessness of the shots-to-goal ratio.

Goal records may be comparable, but Messi is on a completely different level as a playmaker that I don't understand how is this even a discussion. Shot to goal ratio is not all important, but it may tell something when there is a discernible difference.