Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[RUCK4444]

But there is no actual Messi vs Ronaldo for large chunks of their careers. Like right now for example.It's just been a reputation debate. Fans using team achievements to decide who the better individual is.

Imagine if Federer and Nadal had played in different leagues for years, hadn't faced each other. Would you call that a rivalry?

Then when they did play each other it was in the doubles.

So that's why I couldn't class it an all time great rivalry. There's been many in individual sports that surpass it for me.

Yeah I get that rivalries are in many ways more intense in individual sports like tennis, boxing etc. I just think we need to base this on two players who are in the conversation for the GOAT playing at the same time in history.

They played in the same league for a long time, both have played champions league campaigns every season. So they both have the same level of opponent/competition. So I don't think it's impossible to compare the two. It's always going to come back to individual preference but the basics are there to draw comparison.

Also I just think that with football being such a big sport, literally every kid across the globe wants to be a footballer, the climb to the top of that gigantic sport is incredibly hard, arguably harder than any other sport. To get to the very top where it's SO clear for the longest period that these two individuals are levels above anybody else in the sport is in itself pretty unique, add in the fact they go back and forth winning Ballon Dor's and scoring an absurdly higher amount of goals than other players in the sport all adds to the inevitable comparison. That for me sets it apart.

 

[Zehner]

It's going to go right over his head. He'll retort with "Messi brigade. Yada yada. Messi brigade. Cristiano the goat. Messi brigade hate"

Woops. Called it. Right on queue.

I mean, it wasn't the hardest prediction but it was correct

 

[Daysleeper]

I wouldn't have it anywhere near the top just because they're in team sports. So much of their results "against" each other are dictated by the other 20 players on the pitch.

What we've seen in men's tennis the last 10 - 15 years has been a much greater rivalry.

Djokovic is the GOAT

 

[Daysleeper]

Seriously? It's well documents that Zlatan was forced out of Barca because Messi wanted to play upfront rather than on the wings; Villa was forced to play on the wing because of him.

As for penalties, when you're not very good at it, it's best to let someone else take them.

Yup


Some massive ones in there

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

LeBron was better only after Kobe suffered injuries, before that he was schooled by Kobe everytime those 2 met.

But since my father is in hospital because of heart condition, this was much needed laugh, thanks man, keep up!

That's cute. But LeBron leads Kobe in literally every single statistical category in their career head to heads.
He has a 16-6 career win record, leads him in ppg, apg, RPG, spg, and bpg.

In their careers overall, LeBron similarly leads Kobe in every meaningful statistic available. Ppg, rpg, apg, bpg, spg، fg percentage and 3, point percentage.

In the advanced metrics, the margin is even bigger. LeBron creams Kobe in PER (2nd all time to only Michael Jordan) and in win shares.

MVPs? 4 regular season MVPs for LeBron Vs 1 for Kobe
4 FMVPs for LeBron Vs 2 for Kobe

It's fine to have an opinion (even a minority opinion) but making things up such as 'Lebron never supplanted Kobe until the latter was injured' is going to get corrected. When LeBron was racking up MVPs in 2009 and was the undisputed best player on the planet according to the man Kobe was drafted by, Kobe was smack in his prime, while LeBron was a kid.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I mean, it wasn't the hardest prediction but it was correct

 

[Black Adder]

That's cute. But LeBron leads Kobe in literally every single statistical category in their career head to heads.
He has a 16-6 career win record, leads him in ppg, apg, RPG, spg, and bpg.

In their careers overall, LeBron similarly leads Kobe in every meaningful statistic available. Ppg, rpg, apg, bpg, spg، fg percentage and 3, point percentage.

In the advanced metrics, the margin is even bigger. LeBron creams Kobe in PER (2nd all time to only Michael Jordan) and in win shares.

MVPs? 4 regular season MVPs for LeBron Vs 1 for Kobe
4 FMVPs for LeBron Vs 2 for Kobe

It's fine to have an opinion (even a minority opinion) but making things up such as 'Lebron never supplanted Kobe until the latter was injured' is going to get corrected. When LeBron was racking up MVPs in 2009 and was the undisputed best player on the planet according to the man Kobe was drafted by, Kobe was dead smack in his prime, while LeBron was a kid.

What's this shit? And don't even try to be clever about it, really pathetic choice of words.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

What's this shit? And don't even try to be clever about it, really pathetic choice of words.

Don't even pretend that I meant anything by that. You know damn well nobody would mean anything by that so don't bother trying to be an idiot.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Djokovic is the GOAT

The only thing i would argue is that he has always had the age advantage vs Nadal and Federer, especially the latter. So an older Federer who's further from his prime than Djokovic has to deal with a Djoko who's closer to his peak.

A lesser issue with Nadal but it's still true. And Nadal still has the slam count advantage over Djokovic, and might well extend it come the French open.

 

[Black Adder]

Don't even pretend that I meant anything by that. You know damn well nobody would mean anything by that so don't bother trying to be an idiot.

You could've choosen any other wording yet went with this which makes me think it was intentional.

Not to derail this thread anymore I hope you'll be more careful next time.

 

[Lord SInister]

Messi has scored more goals and assisted more goals than Cristiano since latter moved to Real Madrid.
Anyone saying Cristiano is better goal scorer is lying, simple as that.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Because people overvalue and overrate a players dribbling ability.

People love the fact that messi used to embarass his opposition at times whilst they dont rate Ronaldo as much because he took a different approach.

Messi is 3 years younger than Ronaldo and to many of us Ronaldo looks like the younger player because of his mental ability to not just be the goat but to me the longest one in the history of football. Some people value a dribbling skill so much whilst some value things like a players mental ability, the ability to conquer different leagues, the ability to be a complete forward from heading to finishing, the ability to win CLs with different players and managers, the ability to be the biggest goalscorer in european football. ( ronaldo had his skills as a youngster but toned it down to be the most clinical player in different leagues because messi would have to do the same if he played in different leagues to the spanish league which is a ball on the floor environment).

Then there is the fact that Messi has done crap all since the core of Xavi and Iniesta fully retired. Barcelona look less scary without those two and so does Messi. People will say it is his age - seems like an excuse to me. Consider what Spain achieved with Xavi and Iniesta - they were playing tiki taka football without messi and conquering world football. Messi wasnt important to Spain as Xavi and Iniesta was important to messi when playing for argentina.

Again - the people who disagree with me look at a wonder goal that Messi scored (against betis or vs Boateng) and decide thats what makes him better than Ronaldo - but there is many more reasons why Ronaldo outshines messi than just what obviously meets the eye.

If messi is able to move from Barcelona and dominate the PL/Cl with a club like City then id be happy to say that i was wrong. However, playing with xavi and Iniesta and performing in a single match against a big foreign club is totally different to not playing with Xavi and Iniesta at all ( instead playing with Carrick, hargreaves, Rooneu and Scholes, casemiro, kroos, isco, modric, Benzema), dominating a different environment and winning everything that could be won.

Its fair that people wont change their mind because not everyone values football in the same way and its ultimately just a point of view.

To be exact they are 2 years and 4 months apart in age.
I think common consensus is that, Messi is the better player overall, while Ronaldo has better career. But the difference isn’t big.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I was comparing them over the last two years, because you said Messi has done 'crap all' since Iniesta and Xavi left Barca despite him being voted the best player in the world without them. Despite him being the top goalscorer and assister in La Liga twice in a row. Despite him averaging a goal or assist every 76 minutes in the CL since they left. Last season he was the only player in La Liga history to score over 20 goals and 20 assists in a season. That's something that Cristiano never did, despite him spending the majority of his prime there. Neither did Ronaldinho, Maradona, Rivaldo, Zidane, Romario, L. Ronaldo, Laudrup, Raul - nobody ever. These are accomplishments that the best ever players have failed to achieve in their peak years, yet you're here saying that it's 'crap all' even though Messi is 33 years old. It's especially hilarious as you're lionising Ronaldo, who has been outscored by a 36 year old Quagliarela and a 32 year old Immobile in this timeframe.

Even if you think Ronaldo is better, you must understand that you said something very very stupid, and at the age of 57, I'd hope that you'd have the maturity to accept your mistake rather than doubling down.

Technically he has been outscored in league in both seasons you’ve mentioned, but to be fair let’s not ignore 2 facts:

1. In all competitions he has scored more goals than anyone in Italy during those 2 seasons.

2. If we count the time after he joined Juventus up to now, he has scored 72 goals in 86 games in the league alone. This is easily the best record in Serie A in past 2-3 seasons.

Comparing to the 2 players you’ve mentioned:

Serie A from 18 to 21:

Ronaldo: 72 goals in 86 games
Immobile: 65 goals in 96 games
Quagliarela: 45 goals in 85 games

To put things in perspective, Ronaldo is still clearly far ahead of everyone else in Serie A overall. His nearest rival is Immobile, who won European golden shoe last season.

Now, let’s break down Ronaldo stats into overall record in all competition over past 2-3 years:

18-19:
league: 21 goals in 31 games
CL: 6 goals in 9 games
Cup: 1 goals in 3 ganes
International: 6 goals in 7 games (in 2018)

total: 34 goals in 50 games

19-20:
league: 31 goals in 33 games
CL: 4 goals in 8 games
Cup: 2 goals in 5 ganes
International: 14 goals in 10 games (in 2019)

total: 51 goals in 56 games

20-21:
league: 20 goals in 22 games
CL: 4 goals in 6 games
Cup: 3 goals in 4 ganes
International: 3 goals in 6 games (in 2020)

total: 30 goals in 38 games (up to now)


Hence, overall from 18-21:

Ronaldo: 115 goals in 144 games
Immobile: 80 goals in 132 games
Quagliarela: 48 goals in 91 games

Overall speaking, the 2 players you have use to downplay Ronaldo in past 2-3 years, in fact their gap is just too huge even for a conparison, so the plain truth is, they didn’t really outscore Ronaldo in this timeframe, in fact Ronaldo has outscored them by huge margin, so your claim is just totally wrong. I don’t mind you rate Messi over Ronaldo in past 2 years or so, there surely merits on both side of arguments, but let’s not do it in a way with misleading facts to support whatever agenda/claim you push for. Let’s just do it fairly.

 

[Daysleeper]

The only thing i would argue is that he has always had the age advantage vs Nadal and Federer, especially the latter. So an older Federer who's further from his prime than Djokovic has to deal with a Djoko who's closer to his peak.

A lesser issue with Nadal but it's still true. And Nadal still has the slam count advantage over Djokovic, and might well extend it come the French open.

every metric points in favor to Djokovic and the age difference between nadal and djokvoic is merely a year. Federer capitalized on an extremely weak era of tennis from 2003-2007 and once Rafa and Djokovic showed up he had an inferior h2h to both. Federer was the goat but now he’s #3 for me. Nadal will win French but djokvoic is better at all other slams so by 2022 I expect him to overtake nadal in the slam count. 13/20 slams for nadal have been on one surface and he’s the GOAT clay player for overall its Djokovic as the goat even at 18 slams. Every ELO metric that also factors in difficulty of competition has Djokovic well ahead of both nadal and Federer.

 

[Gehrman]

The Premier League is the best league in the world since a couple of years now, but it wasn´t the best league when CR played there.

I think it was from 2005/2010

 

[RedRonaldo]

I think it was from 2005/2010

Yeh it was best league in the world from 05 to 10.
I think it is also currently best league in the world, as La Liga is no longer the best, ever since Neymar, Ronaldo have left the league, while Barca and Real have turn shite.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

every metric points in favor to Djokovic and the age difference between nadal and djokvoic is merely a year. Federer capitalized on an extremely weak era of tennis from 2003-2007 and once Rafa and Djokovic showed up he had an inferior h2h to both. Federer was the goat but now he’s #3 for me. Nadal will win French but djokvoic is better at all other slams so by 2022 I expect him to overtake nadal in the slam count. 13/20 slams for nadal have been on one surface and he’s the GOAT clay player for overall its Djokovic as the goat even at 18 slams. Every ELO metric that also factors in difficulty of competition has Djokovic well ahead of both nadal and Federer.

I'm not sure we use Elo in tennis. A few good points that I might agree with. Nadal's slam distribution might count against him because nobody disputes that he's the clay goat, but it doesn't necessarily make him a more dominant player overall.

Regarding Federer, I'd argue that it's extremely subjective and that Federer's level at that time was higher than anyone else which wouldn't have altered his slam count in that period. The only slam peak Federer wasn't favoured in was the French against Rafa because the latter is the greatest clay court player ever.

You may be right regarding Djokovic overtaking Rafa in the slam count but that remains to be seen. As things stand, Nadal leads, and I wouldn't necessarily start projecting slams for anyone at their age.

 

[Manuel Traquete]

Messi is generally the superior goal scorer statistically speaking if you don't overemphasize very specific cohorts (a. k. a. CL knockout goals). However, Messi scored much more difficult goals than CR7 as evidenced by his xG stats over the years. Cristiano scored his goals from typical striker positions while Messi kept up with his output by primarily scoring from spaces usually occupied by midfielders or playmakers. So even the only area in which one might favor Cristiano actually goes to Messi.

Thing is, these discussions nowadays are almost like negotiations and the one side makes "admissions" when it wouldn't even have to do so. You have to be so incredibly selective with the criteria to keep Cristiano in the debate. If you go by peak, it's crystal clear who the winner is so this isn't even debated. Like, at all. Messi to me would still be the better player if he retired after Pep left Barcelona because he was absolutely untouchable at that time - you won't even find that argument in the last 200 pages or so. People in here just pretend this didn't happen. But even then, if you factor in dribbling, playmaking, assisting etc. it's still Messi by a landslide so people ignore that, too, and completely focus on goal stats. However, solely looking at goals it's still Messi who edges it since he has a better goals per minute ratio and a higher xG throughout his career. And if you go by trophies (see how superficial the metric has already gotten), it's undecided since Cristiano has a CL and an EC going for him while Messi toyed with Cristiano's teams when they both played in La Liga, completely outshining his domestic record in the same competition. So in summary, it's as if every argument is ignored unless it evens the playing field and keeps the comparison alive.

That's what I mean with artificial. One side of this argument has no incentive to see the whole picture whatsoever and the other is lured in to become defensive about very specific areas that might favor Cristiano a little bit. I mean, I don't even have the slightest clue how Cruyff or di Stefano or Gerd Müller or which ever football icon you want to think of scored in the knockout stages of European club tournaments nor did I ever think such things would better in the greater scheme of things, yet in this thread it somehow seems as if this is THE go to criterion to judge a player. And there are countless examples of such excesses and they're already infecting the next generation of player discussions.

Great post. I do feel this "debate" is fueled by the Messi camp making concessions that are absolutely nonsensical. Let's go through them 1 by 1.

1-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano has the better career"

This is highly debatable at best, but let's concede this point. If you're conceding it though, you're putting a tremendous weight on international trophies, in which case someone like Xavi or Iniesta have undoubtedly had superior careers to Cristiano anyway (and their club trophy cabinet is just as or even more impressive too).

2-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is the better goalscorer"

This is just outright false. Messi is the better goalscorer, by just about every metric: goals/game, ability to create his own scoring opportunities... even in the CL Messi still has the better goal ratio. As you said, it'd take extreme selectivity to make a case for Cristiano here, like for instance saying only CL knockout goals matter...

3-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is more clutch and always shows up when it matters."

Again, complete myth. In 38 title matches, Messi has 29 goals (an all-time record) and 14 assists, numerous incredible performances including both CL finals vs United.

In his 6 CL finals, Ronaldo had one great performance (vs Juventus) and was pretty much a non-factor in 4 of them (both vs Atletico, the one vs Liverpool and Barca). In 2008, he missed a crucial penalty that'd have lost United the title had Terry not slipped, and had already missed one at Camp Nou in the semis. He has had multiple ties where he wasn't impactful but his team won anyway.

Messi "choked" in the World Cup final? Since he's been Portugal's leading player, Cristiano hasn't been able to get past the first knockout stage... in the year Messi lost the final, Cristiano was eliminated by the US in the group stages. Cristiano reached 2 Euro finals with Portugal, his performances were largely forgettable. But he won the title and that's all that matters? Well then, he's better than Messi but a ton of players are better than him, starting with everyone who's ever won a World Cup?

Now of course, Cristiano is a great player with multiple great performances on the big stage, but also a lot of misses. Messi is certainly the more consistent performer in high leverage matches and he's just outright a better football player by a large margin.

4-"Messi is the better club player but Cristiano has a better international career."

Again, complete myth. Messi being a much superior player doesn't change when they put on the NT jerseys. When Ronaldo won the Euros with Portugal in 2016, Messi played a considerably better tournament individually weeks earlier at the Copa America. He was the best player of the 2014 World Cup and yes it was absolutely deserved, he lapped the field in every offensive creation stat.

5-"Messi is better but Cristiano is better in the CL, he's the CL GOAT."

Out of all the concessions, this might be the most frequent and annoying. Messi is the CL GOAT and his level of play in this competition has been far higher than anyone else's. But I still see people insisting Cristiano has some magical clutch gene in the CL even after being eliminated 3 years in a row by non-contenders. He won it as the top scorer of the best team, no different than how Lewandoski won last year, at no point did he ever approach Messi's overall quality.

This is highly frustrating because Messi is superior in every single aspect of football, he's a better scorer, dribbler, playmaker... and it feels like so many people abandon all reason just to have a "debate".

 

[Daysleeper]

I'm not sure we use Elo in tennis. A few good points that I might agree with. Nadal's slam distribution might count against him because nobody disputes that he's the clay goat, but it doesn't necessarily make him a more dominant player overall.

Regarding Federer, I'd argue that it's extremely subjective and that Federer's level at that time was higher than anyone else which wouldn't have altered his slam count in that period. The only slam peak Federer wasn't favoured in was the French against Rafa because the latter is the greatest clay court player ever.

You may be right regarding Djokovic overtaking Rafa in the slam count but that remains to be seen. As things stand, Nadal leads, and I wouldn't necessarily start projecting slams for anyone at their age.

Federer peak was great but 2011 Novak had the better peak. I think both nadal and Federer have a bit of a mental block against Novak.

And ELO for tennis is very much a thing which has Novak well ahead:

https://tennisabstract.com/reports/atp_elo_ratings.html

And greatest season ever is 2016 Novak:

https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/peakEloRatings

 

[Daysleeper]

The Premier League is the best league in the world since a couple of years now, but it wasn´t the best league when CR played there.

disagree, it wasn’t the best league in 2018 or 2019. It’s title races have been more lopsided than la liga over the last few years. Epl is also its weakest batch of teams since 2016. I do think la liga is very bad this season in regards to quality teams though and do think this season epl is still better than this season la liga. Epl best league in the world nonsense mostly comes from aggressive marketing

 

[Daysleeper]

He was in terms of attack, but I'd say the defenders did much better to keep Germany out for so long, but each to their own.

same could apply that Pepe was the best Portuguese player in 2016 Euro’s

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Federer peak was great but 2011 Novak had the better peak. I think both nadal and Federer have a bit of a mental block against Novak.

And ELO for tennis is very much a thing which has Novak well ahead:

https://tennisabstract.com/reports/atp_elo_ratings.html

And greatest season ever is 2016 Novak:

https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/peakEloRatings

2016 Djokovic lost to Warinka of all people, in the US open final. I'm not sure what argument he has over peak Federer or peak Nadal.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Great post. I do feel this "debate" is fueled by the Messi camp making concessions that are absolutely nonsensical. Let's go through them 1 by 1.

1-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano has the better career"

This is highly debatable at best, but let's concede this point. If you're conceding it though, you're putting a tremendous weight on international trophies, in which case someone like Xavi or Iniesta have undoubtedly had superior careers to Cristiano anyway (and their club trophy cabinet is just as or even more impressive too).

2-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is the better goalscorer"

This is just outright false. Messi is the better goalscorer, by just about every metric: goals/game, ability to create his own scoring opportunities... even in the CL Messi still has the better goal ratio. As you said, it'd take extreme selectivity to make a case for Cristiano here, like for instance saying only CL knockout goals matter...

3-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is more clutch and always shows up when it matters."

Again, complete myth. In 38 title matches, Messi has 29 goals (an all-time record) and 14 assists, numerous incredible performances including both CL finals vs United.

In his 6 CL finals, Ronaldo had one great performance (vs Juventus) and was pretty much a non-factor in 4 of them (both vs Atletico, the one vs Liverpool and Barca). In 2008, he missed a crucial penalty that'd have lost United the title had Terry not slipped, and had already missed one at Camp Nou in the semis. He has had multiple ties where he wasn't impactful but his team won anyway.

Messi "choked" in the World Cup final? Since he's been Portugal's leading player, Cristiano hasn't been able to get past the first knockout stage... in the year Messi lost the final, Cristiano was eliminated by the US in the group stages. Cristiano reached 2 Euro finals with Portugal, his performances were largely forgettable. But he won the title and that's all that matters? Well then, he's better than Messi but a ton of players are better than him, starting with everyone who's ever won a World Cup?

Now of course, Cristiano is a great player with multiple great performances on the big stage, but also a lot of misses. Messi is certainly the more consistent performer in high leverage matches and he's just outright a better football player by a large margin.

4-"Messi is the better club player but Cristiano has a better international career."

Again, complete myth. Messi being a much superior player doesn't change when they put on the NT jerseys. When Ronaldo won the Euros with Portugal in 2016, Messi played a considerably better tournament individually weeks earlier at the Copa America. He was the best player of the 2014 World Cup and yes it was absolutely deserved, he lapped the field in every offensive creation stat.

5-"Messi is better but Cristiano is better in the CL, he's the CL GOAT."

Out of all the concessions, this might be the most frequent and annoying. Messi is the CL GOAT and his level of play in this competition has been far higher than anyone else's. But I still see people insisting Cristiano has some magical clutch gene in the CL even after being eliminated 3 years in a row by non-contenders. He won it as the top scorer of the best team, no different than how Lewandoski won last year, at no point did he ever approach Messi's overall quality.

This is highly frustrating because Messi is superior in every single aspect of football, he's a better scorer, dribbler, playmaker... and it feels like so many people abandon all reason just to have a "debate".

The 5th point doesn't get stressed enough. You nailed it when you mentioned "level of play". Ultimately, if we're talking about the "CL goat", we would be discussing the player with the highest level of play in the competition. And that's Messi, more than anyone else.

 

[NasirTimothy]

That's cute. But LeBron leads Kobe in literally every single statistical category in their career head to heads.
He has a 16-6 career win record, leads him in ppg, apg, RPG, spg, and bpg.

In their careers overall, LeBron similarly leads Kobe in every meaningful statistic available. Ppg, rpg, apg, bpg, spg، fg percentage and 3, point percentage.

In the advanced metrics, the margin is even bigger. LeBron creams Kobe in PER (2nd all time to only Michael Jordan) and in win shares.

MVPs? 4 regular season MVPs for LeBron Vs 1 for Kobe
4 FMVPs for LeBron Vs 2 for Kobe

It's fine to have an opinion (even a minority opinion) but making things up such as 'Lebron never supplanted Kobe until the latter was injured' is going to get corrected. When LeBron was racking up MVPs in 2009 and was the undisputed best player on the planet according to the man Kobe was drafted by, Kobe was smack in his prime, while LeBron was a kid.

Lebron is better than Kobe but not as good as Jordan. I do remember Jim Jackson saying that both Kobe and Jordan were more relentless competitors than Lebron though.

Lebron can do pretty much everything on the court but his weakness would be free throws (and maybe mid range a bit, but he’s improved on this over the years)

 

[Zehner]

Great post. I do feel this "debate" is fueled by the Messi camp making concessions that are absolutely nonsensical. Let's go through them 1 by 1.

1-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano has the better career"

This is highly debatable at best, but let's concede this point. If you're conceding it though, you're putting a tremendous weight on international trophies, in which case someone like Xavi or Iniesta have undoubtedly had superior careers to Cristiano anyway (and their club trophy cabinet is just as or even more impressive too).

2-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is the better goalscorer"

This is just outright false. Messi is the better goalscorer, by just about every metric: goals/game, ability to create his own scoring opportunities... even in the CL Messi still has the better goal ratio. As you said, it'd take extreme selectivity to make a case for Cristiano here, like for instance saying only CL knockout goals matter...

3-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is more clutch and always shows up when it matters."

Again, complete myth. In 38 title matches, Messi has 29 goals (an all-time record) and 14 assists, numerous incredible performances including both CL finals vs United.

In his 6 CL finals, Ronaldo had one great performance (vs Juventus) and was pretty much a non-factor in 4 of them (both vs Atletico, the one vs Liverpool and Barca). In 2008, he missed a crucial penalty that'd have lost United the title had Terry not slipped, and had already missed one at Camp Nou in the semis. He has had multiple ties where he wasn't impactful but his team won anyway.

Messi "choked" in the World Cup final? Since he's been Portugal's leading player, Cristiano hasn't been able to get past the first knockout stage... in the year Messi lost the final, Cristiano was eliminated by the US in the group stages. Cristiano reached 2 Euro finals with Portugal, his performances were largely forgettable. But he won the title and that's all that matters? Well then, he's better than Messi but a ton of players are better than him, starting with everyone who's ever won a World Cup?

Now of course, Cristiano is a great player with multiple great performances on the big stage, but also a lot of misses. Messi is certainly the more consistent performer in high leverage matches and he's just outright a better football player by a large margin.

4-"Messi is the better club player but Cristiano has a better international career."

Again, complete myth. Messi being a much superior player doesn't change when they put on the NT jerseys. When Ronaldo won the Euros with Portugal in 2016, Messi played a considerably better tournament individually weeks earlier at the Copa America. He was the best player of the 2014 World Cup and yes it was absolutely deserved, he lapped the field in every offensive creation stat.

5-"Messi is better but Cristiano is better in the CL, he's the CL GOAT."

Out of all the concessions, this might be the most frequent and annoying. Messi is the CL GOAT and his level of play in this competition has been far higher than anyone else's. But I still see people insisting Cristiano has some magical clutch gene in the CL even after being eliminated 3 years in a row by non-contenders. He won it as the top scorer of the best team, no different than how Lewandoski won last year, at no point did he ever approach Messi's overall quality.

This is highly frustrating because Messi is superior in every single aspect of football, he's a better scorer, dribbler, playmaker... and it feels like so many people abandon all reason just to have a "debate".

I feel in general, this is really annoying but people have to blame themselves for even discussing this nonsense again and again. This thread emphasizes topics that at least superficially favor Cristiano so much that the vast majority of clear arguments in favor of Messi aren't even debated anymore. And it makes kind of sense because nobody can argue with a straight face that Cristiano had a higher peak or has a better overall contribution than Messi. Or that Messi is a better finisher on top of it. As I said, a very artificial rivalry, at least as it's depicted in this thread.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Lebron is better than Kobe but not as good as Jordan. I do remember Jim Jackson saying that both Kobe and Jordan were more relentless competitors than Lebron though.

Lebron can do pretty much everything on the court but his weakness would be free throws (and maybe mid range a bit, but he’s improved on this over the years)

I agree with that. I think you're spot on with every single point you made. The only thing I'd like to add is that the "relentless competitor/alpha" personality traits that a lot of people think Jordan/Kobe had doesn't make the latter a better player than the "passive/docile" LeBron.

He plays the game differently. Sometimes, perhaps he should be more aggressive (The Dallas series and the first half of the 2013 finals come to mind), but for the most part, what people interpret as perfunctory is him surveying the floor and going with a better advantage somewhere else (in his mind).

I agree that he isn't Michael Jordan and don't think he can reach him given that Jordan had a higher peak and had the higher team success.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Messi has always been a tier above Ronaldo.

He's up there with Pele and Maradona for me.

Ronaldo isn't at that level and never has been.

 

[NasirTimothy]

I agree with that. I think you're spot on with every single point you made. The only thing I'd like to add is that the "relentless competitor/alpha" personality traits that a lot of people think Jordan/Kobe had doesn't make the latter a better player than the "passive/docile" LeBron.

He plays the game differently. Sometimes, perhaps he should be more aggressive (The Dallas series and the first half of the 2013 finals come to mind), but for the most part, what people interpret as perfunctory is him surveying the floor and going with a better advantage somewhere else (in his mind).

I agree that he isn't Michael Jordan and don't think he can reach him given that Jordan had a higher peak and had the higher team success.

Yeah I get what you’re saying. MJ and Kobe had more of a ‘blinkers on’, straight ahead selfish energy and they had to be leaned on by coaches to actually share the ball. Lebron has always had more of a facilitator, point guard, ‘get everybody involved’ type of vibe. He just happens to be bigger and stronger than virtually any point guard in history.

It’s two different styles of leadership.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Great post. I do feel this "debate" is fueled by the Messi camp making concessions that are absolutely nonsensical. Let's go through them 1 by 1.

1-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano has the better career"

This is highly debatable at best, but let's concede this point. If you're conceding it though, you're putting a tremendous weight on international trophies, in which case someone like Xavi or Iniesta have undoubtedly had superior careers to Cristiano anyway (and their club trophy cabinet is just as or even more impressive too).

2-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is the better goalscorer"

This is just outright false. Messi is the better goalscorer, by just about every metric: goals/game, ability to create his own scoring opportunities... even in the CL Messi still has the better goal ratio. As you said, it'd take extreme selectivity to make a case for Cristiano here, like for instance saying only CL knockout goals matter...

3-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is more clutch and always shows up when it matters."

Again, complete myth. In 38 title matches, Messi has 29 goals (an all-time record) and 14 assists, numerous incredible performances including both CL finals vs United.

In his 6 CL finals, Ronaldo had one great performance (vs Juventus) and was pretty much a non-factor in 4 of them (both vs Atletico, the one vs Liverpool and Barca). In 2008, he missed a crucial penalty that'd have lost United the title had Terry not slipped, and had already missed one at Camp Nou in the semis. He has had multiple ties where he wasn't impactful but his team won anyway.

Messi "choked" in the World Cup final? Since he's been Portugal's leading player, Cristiano hasn't been able to get past the first knockout stage... in the year Messi lost the final, Cristiano was eliminated by the US in the group stages. Cristiano reached 2 Euro finals with Portugal, his performances were largely forgettable. But he won the title and that's all that matters? Well then, he's better than Messi but a ton of players are better than him, starting with everyone who's ever won a World Cup?

Now of course, Cristiano is a great player with multiple great performances on the big stage, but also a lot of misses. Messi is certainly the more consistent performer in high leverage matches and he's just outright a better football player by a large margin.

4-"Messi is the better club player but Cristiano has a better international career."

Again, complete myth. Messi being a much superior player doesn't change when they put on the NT jerseys. When Ronaldo won the Euros with Portugal in 2016, Messi played a considerably better tournament individually weeks earlier at the Copa America. He was the best player of the 2014 World Cup and yes it was absolutely deserved, he lapped the field in every offensive creation stat.

5-"Messi is better but Cristiano is better in the CL, he's the CL GOAT."

Out of all the concessions, this might be the most frequent and annoying. Messi is the CL GOAT and his level of play in this competition has been far higher than anyone else's. But I still see people insisting Cristiano has some magical clutch gene in the CL even after being eliminated 3 years in a row by non-contenders. He won it as the top scorer of the best team, no different than how Lewandoski won last year, at no point did he ever approach Messi's overall quality.

This is highly frustrating because Messi is superior in every single aspect of football, he's a better scorer, dribbler, playmaker... and it feels like so many people abandon all reason just to have a "debate".

It amazing that you have wrote such a long Q and A by yourself, yet almost none of those points you have written down here I’d agree with. But I am not going to start another long series of response and response to your counter response, as it’s clear we’d fundamentally disagree in every points you have written here, which is already foreseeable at this very moment, presumably even after countless rounds of ongoing discussions. In short, I do think Messi is better player, but I just disagree with every other things you have written here.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

It amazing that you have wrote such a long Q and A by yourself, yet almost none of those points you have written down here I’d agree with. But I am not going to start another long series of response and response to your counter response, as it’s clear we’d fundamentally disagree in every points you have written here, which is already foreseeable at this very moment, presumably even after countless rounds of ongoing discussions. In short, I do think Messi is better player, but I just disagree with every other things you have written here.

Most of his points are pretty spot on though.

 

[Pocho]

disagree, it wasn’t the best league in 2018 or 2019. It’s title races have been more lopsided than la liga over the last few years. Epl is also its weakest batch of teams since 2016. I do think la liga is very bad this season in regards to quality teams though and do think this season epl is still better than this season la liga. Epl best league in the world nonsense mostly comes from aggressive marketing

For me it's the better league. Many contenders and great teams. But it 's only an opinión, not saying it 's a fact.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Great post. I do feel this "debate" is fueled by the Messi camp making concessions that are absolutely nonsensical. Let's go through them 1 by 1.

1-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano has the better career"

This is highly debatable at best, but let's concede this point. If you're conceding it though, you're putting a tremendous weight on international trophies, in which case someone like Xavi or Iniesta have undoubtedly had superior careers to Cristiano anyway (and their club trophy cabinet is just as or even more impressive too).

2-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is the better goalscorer"

This is just outright false. Messi is the better goalscorer, by just about every metric: goals/game, ability to create his own scoring opportunities... even in the CL Messi still has the better goal ratio. As you said, it'd take extreme selectivity to make a case for Cristiano here, like for instance saying only CL knockout goals matter...

3-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is more clutch and always shows up when it matters."

Again, complete myth. In 38 title matches, Messi has 29 goals (an all-time record) and 14 assists, numerous incredible performances including both CL finals vs United.

In his 6 CL finals, Ronaldo had one great performance (vs Juventus) and was pretty much a non-factor in 4 of them (both vs Atletico, the one vs Liverpool and Barca). In 2008, he missed a crucial penalty that'd have lost United the title had Terry not slipped, and had already missed one at Camp Nou in the semis. He has had multiple ties where he wasn't impactful but his team won anyway.

Messi "choked" in the World Cup final? Since he's been Portugal's leading player, Cristiano hasn't been able to get past the first knockout stage... in the year Messi lost the final, Cristiano was eliminated by the US in the group stages. Cristiano reached 2 Euro finals with Portugal, his performances were largely forgettable. But he won the title and that's all that matters? Well then, he's better than Messi but a ton of players are better than him, starting with everyone who's ever won a World Cup?

Now of course, Cristiano is a great player with multiple great performances on the big stage, but also a lot of misses. Messi is certainly the more consistent performer in high leverage matches and he's just outright a better football player by a large margin.

4-"Messi is the better club player but Cristiano has a better international career."

Again, complete myth. Messi being a much superior player doesn't change when they put on the NT jerseys. When Ronaldo won the Euros with Portugal in 2016, Messi played a considerably better tournament individually weeks earlier at the Copa America. He was the best player of the 2014 World Cup and yes it was absolutely deserved, he lapped the field in every offensive creation stat.

5-"Messi is better but Cristiano is better in the CL, he's the CL GOAT."

Out of all the concessions, this might be the most frequent and annoying. Messi is the CL GOAT and his level of play in this competition has been far higher than anyone else's. But I still see people insisting Cristiano has some magical clutch gene in the CL even after being eliminated 3 years in a row by non-contenders. He won it as the top scorer of the best team, no different than how Lewandoski won last year, at no point did he ever approach Messi's overall quality.

This is highly frustrating because Messi is superior in every single aspect of football, he's a better scorer, dribbler, playmaker... and it feels like so many people abandon all reason just to have a "debate".

Spot on with pretty much everything.

 

[Pocho]

Great post. I do feel this "debate" is fueled by the Messi camp making concessions that are absolutely nonsensical. Let's go through them 1 by 1.

1-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano has the better career"

This is highly debatable at best, but let's concede this point. If you're conceding it though, you're putting a tremendous weight on international trophies, in which case someone like Xavi or Iniesta have undoubtedly had superior careers to Cristiano anyway (and their club trophy cabinet is just as or even more impressive too).

2-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is the better goalscorer"

This is just outright false. Messi is the better goalscorer, by just about every metric: goals/game, ability to create his own scoring opportunities... even in the CL Messi still has the better goal ratio. As you said, it'd take extreme selectivity to make a case for Cristiano here, like for instance saying only CL knockout goals matter...

3-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is more clutch and always shows up when it matters."

Again, complete myth. In 38 title matches, Messi has 29 goals (an all-time record) and 14 assists, numerous incredible performances including both CL finals vs United.

In his 6 CL finals, Ronaldo had one great performance (vs Juventus) and was pretty much a non-factor in 4 of them (both vs Atletico, the one vs Liverpool and Barca). In 2008, he missed a crucial penalty that'd have lost United the title had Terry not slipped, and had already missed one at Camp Nou in the semis. He has had multiple ties where he wasn't impactful but his team won anyway.

Messi "choked" in the World Cup final? Since he's been Portugal's leading player, Cristiano hasn't been able to get past the first knockout stage... in the year Messi lost the final, Cristiano was eliminated by the US in the group stages. Cristiano reached 2 Euro finals with Portugal, his performances were largely forgettable. But he won the title and that's all that matters? Well then, he's better than Messi but a ton of players are better than him, starting with everyone who's ever won a World Cup?

Now of course, Cristiano is a great player with multiple great performances on the big stage, but also a lot of misses. Messi is certainly the more consistent performer in high leverage matches and he's just outright a better football player by a large margin.

4-"Messi is the better club player but Cristiano has a better international career."

Again, complete myth. Messi being a much superior player doesn't change when they put on the NT jerseys. When Ronaldo won the Euros with Portugal in 2016, Messi played a considerably better tournament individually weeks earlier at the Copa America. He was the best player of the 2014 World Cup and yes it was absolutely deserved, he lapped the field in every offensive creation stat.

5-"Messi is better but Cristiano is better in the CL, he's the CL GOAT."

Out of all the concessions, this might be the most frequent and annoying. Messi is the CL GOAT and his level of play in this competition has been far higher than anyone else's. But I still see people insisting Cristiano has some magical clutch gene in the CL even after being eliminated 3 years in a row by non-contenders. He won it as the top scorer of the best team, no different than how Lewandoski won last year, at no point did he ever approach Messi's overall quality.

This is highly frustrating because Messi is superior in every single aspect of football, he's a better scorer, dribbler, playmaker... and it feels like so many people abandon all reason just to have a "debate".

that´s all folks

 

[RedRonaldo]

Most of his points are pretty spot on though.

Sure, but problem is, he only focus on one side of argument to draw his own conclusions on. At the same time, there's another side of arguments which he just totally ignores and where he regards those just as myths. There's just no way there could any construction discussion he could engaged on regarding on all the topic he has listed, as he has already made up his own mind in his lockup mindset without any rooms left for debate.

 

[MrEleson]

Great post. I do feel this "debate" is fueled by the Messi camp making concessions that are absolutely nonsensical. Let's go through them 1 by 1.

1-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano has the better career"

This is highly debatable at best, but let's concede this point. If you're conceding it though, you're putting a tremendous weight on international trophies, in which case someone like Xavi or Iniesta have undoubtedly had superior careers to Cristiano anyway (and their club trophy cabinet is just as or even more impressive too).

2-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is the better goalscorer"

This is just outright false. Messi is the better goalscorer, by just about every metric: goals/game, ability to create his own scoring opportunities... even in the CL Messi still has the better goal ratio. As you said, it'd take extreme selectivity to make a case for Cristiano here, like for instance saying only CL knockout goals matter...

3-"Messi is the better player but Cristiano is more clutch and always shows up when it matters."

Again, complete myth. In 38 title matches, Messi has 29 goals (an all-time record) and 14 assists, numerous incredible performances including both CL finals vs United.

In his 6 CL finals, Ronaldo had one great performance (vs Juventus) and was pretty much a non-factor in 4 of them (both vs Atletico, the one vs Liverpool and Barca). In 2008, he missed a crucial penalty that'd have lost United the title had Terry not slipped, and had already missed one at Camp Nou in the semis. He has had multiple ties where he wasn't impactful but his team won anyway.

Messi "choked" in the World Cup final? Since he's been Portugal's leading player, Cristiano hasn't been able to get past the first knockout stage... in the year Messi lost the final, Cristiano was eliminated by the US in the group stages. Cristiano reached 2 Euro finals with Portugal, his performances were largely forgettable. But he won the title and that's all that matters? Well then, he's better than Messi but a ton of players are better than him, starting with everyone who's ever won a World Cup?

Now of course, Cristiano is a great player with multiple great performances on the big stage, but also a lot of misses. Messi is certainly the more consistent performer in high leverage matches and he's just outright a better football player by a large margin.

4-"Messi is the better club player but Cristiano has a better international career."

Again, complete myth. Messi being a much superior player doesn't change when they put on the NT jerseys. When Ronaldo won the Euros with Portugal in 2016, Messi played a considerably better tournament individually weeks earlier at the Copa America. He was the best player of the 2014 World Cup and yes it was absolutely deserved, he lapped the field in every offensive creation stat.

5-"Messi is better but Cristiano is better in the CL, he's the CL GOAT."

Out of all the concessions, this might be the most frequent and annoying. Messi is the CL GOAT and his level of play in this competition has been far higher than anyone else's. But I still see people insisting Cristiano has some magical clutch gene in the CL even after being eliminated 3 years in a row by non-contenders. He won it as the top scorer of the best team, no different than how Lewandoski won last year, at no point did he ever approach Messi's overall quality.

This is highly frustrating because Messi is superior in every single aspect of football, he's a better scorer, dribbler, playmaker... and it feels like so many people abandon all reason just to have a "debate".

I disagree with almost everything you wrote here, especially the points about the Champions League. Ronaldo IS the champions league GOAT. No one with a sane mind would put Messi above him in this competition. He holds just about every record imaginable in it and wasn’t just topscorer in a great team so the Lewandowski comparison is nonsensical.

 

[Zehner]

It amazing that you have wrote such a long Q and A by yourself, yet almost none of those points you have written down here I’d agree with. But I am not going to start another long series of response and response to your counter response, as it’s clear we’d fundamentally disagree in every points you have written here, which is already foreseeable at this very moment, presumably even after countless rounds of ongoing discussions. In short, I do think Messi is better player, but I just disagree with every other things you have written here.

Yes, there are two sides to the points he argued and he only emphasizes one. But those are the points on your agenda. The topics you want to discuss because the result is somewhat ambivalent. But why are the only topics discussed in this thread the ones that are somewhat even? While the comparison between the two might be almost even based on those topics, there are other ones that clearly favor Messi and those are barely discussed at all. Compare their peaks and the discussion is finished, so people just agree to discuss their whole careers. Yet it's questionable if this is the common way to access a footballer's quality. Maradona or Ronaldinho for instance feature in many all time great lists although they had very short peaks. Factor in dribbling, playmaking, chance creation in general and it clearly goes to Messi again, so you just discuss goal stats. However, those still favor Messi, so you guys either want to exclude the the first years of Cristiano's career (because Messi becoming a prolific goal scorer at a younger age obviously isn't important) or just look at CL knockout goals. The cohort most important is coincidently always the one that goes to Cristiano, even if all remaining ones favor Messi

I mean, the best example of that is this obsession with goal stats. Obviously, Messi is a player that you can't measure in his goal record. However, somebody makes the ambivalent argument that Cristiano is a better goal scorer than Messi and pretends it is a fact. So the "Messi fans" don't think this matter since it's nonsensical to them to judge a player based on goals alone but still feel the need to correct that argument since it is not factually true. Now the discussion is in full flight and it seems as if the players were even when in reality you only discuss the stuff that you want to discuss and that in isolation might lead to the outcome you want to see It's the same with trophies or their national career. And in the end those weak argumens dominate the whole discussion while things that are clearly in favor of Messi are almost ignored completely. I mean, we're talking about a player who scored 73 goals and gave 33 assists in a single season, equaling a goal or assist almost every half time he played. And he wasn't even a striker. Why do you read on every page how many goals Ronaldo scored in the knockout stages of the CL a few years ago while this statistic is barely mentioned at all? It's as if this didn't even happen. That's called agenda setting.

 

[Swoobs]

Yes, there are two sides to the points he argued and he only emphasizes one. But those are the points on your agenda. The topics you want to discuss because the result is somewhat ambivalent. But why are the only topics discussed in this thread the ones that are somewhat even? While the comparison between the two might be almost even based on those topics, there are other ones that clearly favor Messi and those are barely discussed at all. Compare their peaks and the discussion is finished, so people just agree to discuss their whole careers. Yet it's questionable if this is the common way to access a footballer's quality. Maradona or Ronaldinho for instance feature in many all time great lists although they had very short peaks. Factor in dribbling, playmaking, chance creation in general and it clearly goes to Messi again, so you just discuss goal stats. However, those still favor Messi, so you guys either want to exclude the the first years of Cristiano's career (because Messi becoming a prolific goal scorer at a younger age obviously isn't important) or just look at CL knockout goals. The cohort most important is coincidently always the one that goes to Cristiano, even if all remaining ones favor Messi

I mean, the best example of that is this obsession with goal stats. Obviously, Messi is a player that you can't measure in his goal record. However, somebody makes the ambivalent argument that Cristiano is a better goal scorer than Messi and pretends it is a fact. So the "Messi fans" don't think this matter since it's nonsensical to them to judge a player based on goals alone but still feel the need to correct that argument since it is not factually true. Now the discussion is in full flight and it seems as if the players were even when in reality you only discuss the stuff that you want to discuss and that in isolation might lead to the outcome you want to see It's the same with trophies or their national career. And in the end those weak argumens dominate the whole discussion while things that are clearly in favor of Messi are almost ignored completely. I mean, we're talking about a player who scored 73 goals and gave 33 assists in a single season, equaling a goal or assist almost every half time he played. And he wasn't even a striker. Why do you read on every page how many goals Ronaldo scored in the knockout stages of the CL a few years ago while this statistic is barely mentioned at all? It's as if this didn't even happen. That's called agenda setting.

Spot on. Call me a sceptic if you will, but given how important his image is to CR7, I will not be surprised if there are really paid social media companies (like the one in the recent Barcagate) trying to frame agendas and arguments to put CR7 in the tier of Messi, and by extension Pele and Maradona.

Just look at how Cal? is behaving when it comes to CR7, not unlike the very same China CCP’s internet trolls that he himself hates, ironic isn’t it? Whataboutry, full of logic flaws, ad hominem, and there are bunch of people like him in youtube reddit and the such.I refuse to believe that there are no professional social media influencer entities contracted to do this, and it has obviously worked well

 

[Hashira]

I disagree with almost everything you wrote here, especially the points about the Champions League. Ronaldo IS the champions league GOAT. No one with a sane mind would put Messi above him in this competition. He holds just about every record imaginable in it and wasn’t just topscorer in a great team so the Lewandowski comparison is nonsensical.

Agreed.

Ronaldo has the most amount of both goals (135) and assists (42) in the history of the European Cup/Champions League since its' introduction in 1955.

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/history/rankings/players/goals_scored/
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/history/rankings/players/assists/

Messi is 2nd top scorer (120) and has the 2nd most number of assists (36) in the competition's history. Ronaldo has 5 CL wins and was ever-present in each of those successful campaigns. Messi has 4 CL to his name, and only played a bit part role in the first win in 05/06 (1 goal in 6 games) whilst not making the bench in the final vs Arsenal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_UEFA_Champions_League_Final#Details

Ronaldo also has won the most amount of games by any player in the competition (112). The only other player who won more than 100 matches in the Champions League is Casillas (101). This is a testament to Ronaldo's incredible consistency and longevity. The supporters of Pele and Maradona love to point out that neither Messi nor Ronaldo has scored in a knockout game of the World Cup as a measuring stick to downplay them. However, Ronaldo has 67 goals in the knockout phase of the Champions League. While Messi has 49.

The WC used to be the holy grail of football because it was a platform that gave us the opportunity to see the best players in the world facing one another. But this is not the case anymore since the injection of cash in to European club football scene in the last few decades. The European clubs now have the best players across the globe playing for them because essentially all of them fancied a move abroad to Europe due to the wages and exposure. The WC though remains a more prestigious competition for a footballer to win due to its' storied history, the fact that it is played only once every four years which makes it a more elusive prize, and the honour of winning it for your country gives them a sense of pride of being a national hero. Nonetheless, it's clear as day that the Champions League offers the highest level of quality in the modern era and hence, is the realest testament to a player's ability.

Ronaldo has scored in 3 separate CL finals, no other players has scored in more. He has scored 4 goals in Champions League final, again no one has scored as many. A tremendous amount of his goals in the competition have been crucial goals that were either equalisers or match winners. He has consistently delivered on the biggest stage of them all. So even an argument such as a flat track bully or stat padding would be nonsense. Of course, Ronaldo does not always have a stormer of a final (e.g. 08/09 vs Barcelona, 17/18 vs Liverpool) and requires a team mate to step up to help win it. That's normal because after all football is a team game and no one player is perfect throughout the entire competition. However it's important to bear in mind that Ronaldo was always highly instrumental in spearheading his team to the final in those finals that he could not replicate the same impact. They would not have even made the finals without Ronaldo to begin with.

Ronaldo dominated the Premier League during an era when the PL was at the peak of its quality. From 2006/07 to 2008/09, most of the final 4 spots in the Champions League were monopolised by English outfits

2006/07 - Milan, Liverpool, United, Chelsea
2007/08 - United, Chelsea, Barcelona, Liverpool
2008/09 - Barcelona, United, Chelsea, Arsenal

During this time, 9 out of the 12 possible Champions League semi finalists were English clubs. United x3, Chelsea x3, Liverpool x 2, Arsenal x1. While only 3 were non-English (Barca x2, Milan x1). Ronaldo then went to Spain and took little to no time to settle at a new club in a new country. During this time La Liga overtook the Premier League to become the strongest league in the world. Ronaldo and Messi were matching each other blow for blow there, with those two smashing records at an astonishing rate like no other business. Ronaldo then moved to Juventus and thus far in his 3rd season, has outscored any other player in the Serie A since his arrival. This shows that the man can certainly succeed in different countries, different climates, under different managers with different approaches and tactical set-ups. He is the most complete goal scorer I have witnessed. Long range strikes, 1 v 1, overhead bicycle kicks, calm composed finishing and fierce angled finishing from multiple angles, backheels, brilliant solo runs, headers, etc. It's a vast plethora.

Do I think that he is a better player than Messi though? No, I actually do not. They are both level in my eyes. I think Messi is the more naturally talented of the two and more complete player. However Ronaldo's mental aspects (e.g. determination, sheer athletic dedication and drive to excel) really impresses me. And I'm very sure if even I could feel this through my television screen and in the stands, then certainly this influence could inspire his team mates who are sharing the same pitch as him. In the past, I do not like him because I think he is a petulant prima donna with a huge ego. However in recent years he seems to have mellowed down a lot probably due to him maturing. And I started being less harsh on him. If my team is playing in an important game/cup final, and I could only pick between one of Ronaldo or Messi to play for my team, I would be more confident and assured of my team's chances of winning with Ronaldo. However, if given a choice to build my team around a player for a league campaign, I would be more confident of winning the title with Messi in it.

 

[Manuel Traquete]

Sure, but problem is, he only focus on one side of argument to draw his own conclusions on. At the same time, there's another side of arguments which he just totally ignores and where he regards those just as myths. There's just no way there could any construction discussion he could engaged on regarding on all the topic he has listed, as he has already made up his own mind in his lockup mindset without any rooms left for debate.

No, I don't focus on one side of the argument. It's just that those arguments, oft-used in favor of Cristiano, don't hold up to even the slightest scrutinity. Better goal scorer? This is demonstrably false. More clutch in big moments? Again demonstrabaly false.

I disagree with almost everything you wrote here, especially the points about the Champions League. Ronaldo IS the champions league GOAT. No one with a sane mind would put Messi above him in this competition. He holds just about every record imaginable in it and wasn’t just topscorer in a great team so the Lewandowski comparison is nonsensical.

Based on? Messi actually has a better scoring ratio in the CL, by a considerable margin. Yes, Ronaldo has the record for most raw number of goals... because he played far more matches. There's at least a 50/50 chance Messi will retire as the all-time top scorer btw, if this happens does he suddently become GOAT of CL in your eyes or?

Based on pure scoring numbers, Lewandoski last season was arguably more impressive than any Cristiano season actually, he scored only 15 goals to Cristiano's 17 in 2014, but he didn't have a second leg in QF and SF rounds... their career goalscoring ratio in the tournament is exactly the same (0,76/game). The comparison is very apt, Lewandoski and Cristiano were highly prolific goal scorers in extremely strong and complete teams that won the CL. Maybe you can pinpoint which areas/ways Cristiano contributed in that Lewandoski didn't?

But Cristiano has 5 titles, Messi only has 4? Gento won 6, Costacurta won 5, how high up are they in your GOAT list?

Aside from a better scoring ratio, Messi is just the much better player in general in all competitions, including CL. It's the other way, no one with an analytical mind would even consider Ronaldo anywhere close to Messi in the CL overall; in order to put Ronaldo above you'd have to rely on very flimsy narratives that fall like a house of cards under even the slighest scrutiny. The most popular one is that Ronaldo always steps it up while Messi goes hiding; all it takes is comparing their CL final performances for this to instantly become laughable. In 4 of his 6, Ronaldo had very little to no impact, only in 1 of them did he have what you'd call a great performance, still clearly inferior to Messi's against United in both finals anyway. If we analyse other big games prior to the final, the trend remains, Messi's level of performance is generally clearly higher; they faced each other in 3 different knockout ties btw, Messi performed significantly better in all of them...

 

[Manuel Traquete]

Agreed.

Ronaldo has the most amount of both goals (135) and assists (42) in the history of the European Cup/Champions League since its' introduction in 1955.

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/history/rankings/players/goals_scored/
https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/history/rankings/players/assists/

Messi is 2nd top scorer (120) and has the 2nd most number of assists (36) in the competition's history. Ronaldo has 5 CL wins and was ever-present in each of those successful campaigns. Messi has 4 CL to his name, and only played a bit part role in the first win in 05/06 (1 goal in 6 games) whilst not making the bench in the final vs Arsenal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_UEFA_Champions_League_Final#Details

Ronaldo also has won the most amount of games by any player in the competition (112). The only other player who won more than 100 matches in the Champions League is Casillas (101). This is a testament to Ronaldo's incredible consistency and longevity. The supporters of Pele and Maradona love to point out that neither Messi nor Ronaldo has scored in a knockout game of the World Cup as a measuring stick to downplay them. However, Ronaldo has 67 goals in the knockout phase of the Champions League. While Messi has 49.

The WC used to be the holy grail of football because it was a platform that gave us the opportunity to see the best players in the world facing one another. But this is not the case anymore since the injection of cash in to European club football scene in the last few decades. The European clubs now have the best players across the globe playing for them because essentially all of them fancied a move abroad to Europe due to the wages and exposure. The WC though remains a more prestigious competition for a footballer to win due to its' storied history, the fact that it is played only once every four years which makes it a more elusive prize, and the honour of winning it for your country gives them a sense of pride of being a national hero. Nonetheless, it's clear as day that the Champions League offers the highest level of quality in the modern era and hence, is the realest testament to a player's ability.

Ronaldo has scored in 3 separate CL finals, no other players has scored in more. He has scored 4 goals in Champions League final, again no one has scored as many. A tremendous amount of his goals in the competition have been crucial goals that were either equalisers or match winners. He has consistently delivered on the biggest stage of them all. So even an argument such as a flat track bully or stat padding would be nonsense. Of course, Ronaldo does not always have a stormer of a final (e.g. 08/09 vs Barcelona, 17/18 vs Liverpool) and requires a team mate to step up to help win it. That's normal because after all football is a team game and no one player is perfect throughout the entire competition. However it's important to bear in mind that Ronaldo was always highly instrumental in spearheading his team to the final in those finals that he could not replicate the same impact. They would not have even made the finals without Ronaldo to begin with.

Ronaldo dominated the Premier League during an era when the PL was at the peak of its quality. From 2006/07 to 2008/09, most of the final 4 spots in the Champions League were monopolised by English outfits

2006/07 - Milan, Liverpool, United, Chelsea
2007/08 - United, Chelsea, Barcelona, Liverpool
2008/09 - Barcelona, United, Chelsea, Arsenal

During this time, 9 out of the 12 possible Champions League semi finalists were English clubs. United x3, Chelsea x3, Liverpool x 2, Arsenal x1. While only 3 were non-English (Barca x2, Milan x1). Ronaldo then went to Spain and took little to no time to settle at a new club in a new country. During this time La Liga overtook the Premier League to become the strongest league in the world. Ronaldo and Messi were matching each other blow for blow there, with those two smashing records at an astonishing rate like no other business. Ronaldo then moved to Juventus and thus far in his 3rd season, has outscored any other player in the Serie A since his arrival. This shows that the man can certainly succeed in different countries, different climates, under different managers with different approaches and tactical set-ups. He is the most complete goal scorer I have witnessed. Long range strikes, 1 v 1, overhead bicycle kicks, calm composed finishing and fierce angled finishing from multiple angles, backheels, brilliant solo runs, headers, etc. It's a vast plethora.

Do I think that he is a better player than Messi though? No, I actually do not. They are both level in my eyes. I think Messi is the more naturally talented of the two and more complete player. However Ronaldo's mental aspects (e.g. determination, sheer athletic dedication and drive to excel) really impresses me. And I'm very sure if even I could feel this through my television screen and in the stands, then certainly this influence could inspire his team mates who are sharing the same pitch as him. In the past, I do not like him because I think he is a petulant prima donna with a huge ego. However in recent years he seems to have mellowed down a lot probably due to him maturing. And I started being less harsh on him. If my team is playing in an important game/cup final, and I could only pick between one of Ronaldo or Messi to play for my team, I would be more confident and assured of my team's chances of winning with Ronaldo. However, if given a choice to build my team around a player for a league campaign, I would be more confident of winning the title with Messi in it.

Small problem with the CL argument: Ronaldo has played 176 CL matches, Messi 149. Messi's goal and assist ratios are both superior.

Big problem with the CL argument: these are very rudimentary measures that don't even come close to capturing the totality of a player's impact on the football field and in the case of this particular comparison Messi's superiority as an all-around player.

Finally one part of your post is the perfect example of the kind of mental gymnastics needed to fuel this "debate". During the 9 years they were both in La Liga, Messi won the league 6 times, Ronaldo won 2, in the one remaining season Messi finishead ahead; Messi beat Ronaldo in both rudimentary measures you seem to value so much and believe make Cristiano CL GOAT, goals and assists. Yet your description of the situation is that they were "matching each other blow for blow", when even by the extremely selective criteria you advocate Messi comes out clearly ahead.