Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Bebestation]

It's a race matter now

It's not a race matter, it's the matter of fans viewing skill as the way they judge a footballers ability- the most average of fans dont even have the ability to look or judge a players mentality, the players desire to test himself in different scenarios and settings, his ability to be successful in so many different ways (ie national football).

It's the fans that view skill - the ability to nutmeg Boateng or to run pass Getafe once every season as what's different between the best players and the good players.

That is why Maradona and Pele and Messi are rated so highly by the fans that can only see skill as the way to judge a player alongside being a top goalscorer in La Liga etc. Skill of a player is heavily influenced by where they play football and the environment they were raised in.

Neymar, Ronaldinho, Messi, Maradona, Pele to Robinho, Sanchez and Dybala - you wont see these type of players playing consistently or developing in other national teams. Do you think there is more of a chance of the next Neymar developing in Brazil than the next Zlatan Ibrahimovic in Sweden?

Football is known as an entertainment, and people who are there with their jaws dropping after skill and technique (especially in a on the floor based league like La Liga for the whole of their career) will have an over skewed value of these players. Neymar is one of these prime examples for me, a player still valued by some by being in the top 5 players of the world (due to the type of football they play) whilst he has hardly done anything of note post Barcelona and has just been a good/very good player for a good/very good team. People will say stuff like Lewandowski has been the best player in the world for a consistent couple seasons now but people wont rate Lewandowski as a better player than Neymar as an all time player once both retire. It's like how you hear - player A is a better player but Player B had a better career. Why is that? Because some value the skill & technique of football played (which can be heavily reliant where you play football, who your team is and how they play football, the weather you play football in, who your opposition is for most of your career and even whether you are bought up in playing football in slums of Brazil or Argentina or the housing estates of Everton or Manchester). For example, If you think the England National team will consistently have a technically skilled entertaining player like how Brazil or Argentian south American teams create one atleast every half decade from fat Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Pele, Rivaldo, Romario to neymar or the poor Robinho - then so be it.

Some people dont value the technical ability or dribbles or the skills of a player as much as others do as a heavily weighted approach to who the best players are because it can be heavily skewed by multiple things.

 

[Manuel Traquete]

@Manuel Traquete

How many of the trophies were without one of xavi or Iniesta

Ronaldo could play with scholes and Carrick to Kroos and modric.

When I bring up the trophies Messi cant win without the "core of Barcelona or Spain" it turns to his fans that it doesnt matter that he was the top scorer and that's all that matters.

It's great to see the top scorers change in the PL nearly to every year. Shows how shit the La Liga is and he simply doesnt have the guts to try out anywhere else. Now this new commander is joining Barcelona he will use that as an excuse as to retire there.

Ps. Growth Hormone Injection literally made him bigger than he naturally was.

Interesting that you bring up Xavi and Iniesta because by the extremely contrived criteria used by the Ronaldo camp here they are both clearly superior to Cristiano. They both have a better career resumé consideirng club and international titles and there's no more clutch big game performer than Iniesta, he's been MVP of the final of every tournament he's ever played., his big game track record far exceeds Cristiano's. This is far too simplistic a way to analyse things of course (but the one used by the Ronaldo camp here), but honestly this is a much better debate, despite goal tallies it's entirely possible Xavi/Iniesta are simply more impactful players at the team level than Cristiano. In fact, there's no doubt in my mind that in high leverage games against tough opposition I'd much rather have Xavi or Iniesta on my team than Cristiano; otoh though, Ronaldo's relentless consistency is more valuable over a league season and leagues are the core of a football season so you'd probably take him overall.

So you've gone with titles instead of goals now? I specifically said Ronaldo had a better goal record in La Liga which is true.

Again, failing to make CL finals count as big games, no? All those SF defeats?

You really want to use that Copa as an example? The one where Argentina beat Chile without Messi in the group stage and proceeded to LOSE to Chile with him doing nothing in 120 minutes and bottling his penalty?


Can you at least admit Messi has looked less than GOAT level in the CL for over half a decade now? That period covers quite a few years of his "peak"?

Even the most hardcore members of the Messi brigade struggle with arguing for Messi's CL record against Ronaldo, you really are breaking new ground here.

I wouldn't be so sure about Messi retiring after Ronaldo.

As for the minnows argument, Messi has had plenty of games against CONCACAF teams such as Guatamala, Haiti & co.

The problem here is you are equating team results to individual performances...

Did Ronaldo win the CL 3 times since Messi last did? Yes, he did. Was he at any point a better or even comparable football player? Nope....

Barcelona losing isn't an indictment on Messi. CL ties aren't a referendum on who the better player is. Or do you think Juventus have been eliminated recently because Van de Beek, Memphis Depay and Sergio Oliveira are superior to Cristiano? Team A def. Team B doesn't mean Team B's star player choked... Messi has been routinely fantastic in the Champions League, just this Wednesday he produced a kind of all-around performance no other player in the world is capable of although Barca got decisively eliminated.

Raw number goals is a better way of assessing CL performance than goals per game, because, as I said, you will play more games if your performances help your team go through.

Ronaldo holds the record for most CL goals in a single season (17), second most goals in a single season (16), and shares the record for third most goals in a single season (15) with Robert Lewandoski. He won the CL in each of those seasons. He was also the top CL goalscorer in the season in which he won the title with Manchester United (8 goals), and in the other season in which he won the title with RM, in which he scored twice in the final, three times in the semifinals, and three times in the quarterfinals and was probably his most dominating season for RM.

It's easy to defend Messi by saying that he had better internal competition (Neymar, for example, who was joint top goalscorer with Messi in 2015), or that his team was not as good.

What I don't understand is why you have to keep going further and attempt to argue that Messi's numbers are better. They really just aren't.

Raw number of goals does not assess CL performance, it assesses number of goals scored, nothing more, nothing less. It is one, very significant granted, way to impact a football match, but there's no direct correlation between # of goals and quality of performance.

And I'm sorry, this resistance to take into account # of games played when looking at goal stats is ridiculous. Haaland has 20 CL goals (in 14 games), Ibrahimovic has 48 (in 120), who is the more skilled scorer at CL level? Obviously you can't just take averages at face value, for instance the sample size for Haaland is way too small to compare him with Ronaldo or Messi... but to ignore it completely is just nonsensical.

You also seem to be implying that Ronaldo has more games and therefore goals because his superior performances compared to Messi's allowed his team to go further. Is this what you're postulating? This is extremely easy to debunk with multiple examples of ties where Ronaldo performed poorly and his team still advanced and of ties where Messi performed well but his team still lost. I just want to make sure this is what you're saying before addressing it in detail...

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

That's only true in your own bubble of reality, meanwhile in the real world, Ronaldo is the CL GOAT by some distant.

You nailed it when you called it reality. You're welcome to join us. Though, I understand you continuing to live in your own bubble and calling Cristiano the GOAT, if that helps you cope with the fact that the footballing masses consider him inferior to Messi.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

You see how people say Maradona, Messi and Pele are the best players in the world - do you not see it's not just a coincidence that all 3 are from south america?

It's a race matter now

It's so ridiculous, christ some of the stuff I read here just boggles my mind. Imaging you can't win an argument anymore on goals per ratio and skills and you bring race into the argument. I always knew Ronaldo supporters are so insecure and embarrassing but this takes the cake. I'm done.

You'd be shocked at how insecure, embarassing, and delusional they are. Some of this is so ridiculous that it you'd think it's trolling.

 

[Cal?]

The problem here is you are equating team results to individual performances...

Did Ronaldo win the CL 3 times since Messi last did? Yes, he did. Was he at any point a better or even comparable football player? Nope....

Barcelona losing isn't an indictment on Messi. CL ties aren't a referendum on who the better player is. Or do you think Juventus have been eliminated recently because Van de Beek, Memphis Depay and Sergio Oliveira are superior to Cristiano? Team A def. Team B doesn't mean Team B's star player choked... Messi has been routinely fantastic in the Champions League, just this Wednesday he produced a kind of all-around performance no other player in the world is capable of although Barca got decisively eliminated.

There we go again with the Messi brigade equating their opinions to facts.

Most people in their right minds will agree that Ronaldo has been the far better player in the CL down the years.

Football is about results, not about looking pleasing on the eye. This wednesday Messi & his team mates didn't even make a dent in PSG's big lead in the first leg.

Raw number of goals does not assess CL performance, it assesses number of goals scored, nothing more, nothing less. It is one, very significant granted, way to impact a football match, but there's no direct correlation between # of goals and quality of performance.

And I'm sorry, this resistance to take into account # of games played when looking at goal stats is ridiculous. Haaland has 20 CL goals (in 14 games), Ibrahimovic has 48 (in 120), who is the more skilled scorer at CL level? Obviously you can't just take averages at face value, for instance the sample size for Haaland is way too small to compare him with Ronaldo or Messi... but to ignore it completely is just nonsensical.

You also seem to be implying that Ronaldo has more games and therefore goals because his superior performances compared to Messi's allowed his team to go further. Is this what you're postulating? This is extremely easy to debunk with multiple examples of ties where Ronaldo performed poorly and his team still advanced and of ties where Messi performed well but his team still lost. I just want to make sure this is what you're saying before addressing it in detail...

You Messi worshippers are never objective whenever it comes to him, does he ever perform badly in your book? You probably don't even think him missing that penalty against Chelsea was his fault.

On the other hand, many of you come up with ridiculous arguments like "Ronaldo did nothing apart from scoring 2-3 goals" in the game.

 

[Cal?]

brain dead moment for you as Messi has 8 trophies since xavi left.
As for copa America chile beat Portugal as well in confederations cup which Ronaldo played and lost on top of Ronaldo get knocked out by Uruguay in the last World Cup. He wouldn’t win copa America either

Obviously teams who win one game against another will win every single game forever and ever.

Never mind the fact that Argentina without Messi beat Chile in a Copa America, only to lose to the same Chile side with Messi doing nothing in 120min and then missing the penalty.

 

[Cal?]

I disagree with this for the fact that while Ronaldo has more CL goals, Messi is in fact the better finals performer.

29 goals and has given 14 assists in 35 finals played for Messi

compared to just 20 goals and 2 assist for Ronaldo.

Ronaldo also was painfully mediocre in the 2008, 2014, 2016 and 2018 CL. His 2014 penalty was meaningless, and the other finals outside of 2017 and perhaps 2009 was he actually pretty good.

but i also have no problem saying Ronaldo was the better CL player than Messi, but when looking at the body of work as a whole, Messi is the superior player by nearly every meaningful metric.

You're counting all finals (even Spanish & European Super Cup)?

I'd say the many CL SFs that Ronaldo has dominated are far bigger games than those.

 

[Daysleeper]

You're counting all finals (even Spanish & European Super Cup)?

I'd say the many CL SFs that Ronaldo has dominated are far bigger games than those.

a final is a final, period. Ronaldo hasn’t been as good in finals as Messi on average, period

 

[Daysleeper]

Obviously teams who win one game against another will win every single game forever and ever.

Never mind the fact that Argentina without Messi beat Chile in a Copa America, only to lose to the same Chile side with Messi doing nothing in 120min and then missing the penalty.

Ronaldo struggles a lot against south American sides, Portugal won a euro final without Ronaldo, and Portugal also have gone without a loss in their last 11 matches without Ronaldo and then lost to France with Ronaldo recently. See how that works?

 

[Cal?]

You nailed it when you called it reality. You're welcome to join us. Though, I understand you continuing to live in your own bubble and calling Cristiano the GOAT, if that helps you cope with the fact that the footballing masses consider him inferior to Messi.

Google "Best Champions League player of all time":

https://www.givemesport.com/1613282...-the-best-players-in-champions-league-history

Cristiano Ronaldo has earned the moniker ‘Mr Champions League’ as a result of his love affair with the competition.

The debate over who is the better player between Ronaldo and Lionel Messi will stretch on for years to come, but there can be no arguing over who the No.1 in Europe’s premier club competition is.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/footbal...greatest-player-uefa-champions-league-history

https://www.goliath.com/sports/the-10-best-players-in-champions-league-history/

I haven't been able to find a single article that ranks Messi higher that's written in the last few years (there are some before Ronaldo's 4 in 5 years).

Do show some evidence how the "footballing masses" share your opinion that Messi is CL GOAT.

 

[Cal?]

a final is a final, period. Ronaldo hasn’t been as good in finals as Messi on average, period

A final is a final, fine, but each final isn't worth the same, to tabulate a CL/WC final together with a Supercup 1st leg is just idiotic.

 

[Cal?]

Ronaldo struggles a lot against south American sides, Portugal won a euro final without Ronaldo, and Portugal also have gone without a loss in their last 11 matches without Ronaldo and then lost to France with Ronaldo recently. See how that works?

Portugal won a Euro final with Ronaldo going off injured, not without Ronaldo.

Did Portugal recently beat France without him? What's the point you're making?

 

[Daysleeper]

Portugal won a Euro final with Ronaldo going off injured, not without Ronaldo.

Did Portugal recently beat France without him? What's the point you're making?

the stupidity of Argentina beating a Chile side without messi, in the group stage. Portugal didn’t beat chile either in the same situation where Ronaldo was a passenger for 120 minutes.

ronaldo was doing absolutely nothing in the euro final and then got injured 25 minutes in. Portugal went on to win and has yet to beat them again ever since in the multiple matches both teams have Dave’s off and Ronaldo has played the full 90 against them since then both times.

 

[Daysleeper]

A final is a final, fine, but each final isn't worth the same, to tabulate a CL/WC final together with a Supercup 1st leg is just idiotic.

messi is a better World Cup player than Ronaldo as well.

 

[Bebestation]

messi is a better World Cup player than Ronaldo as well.

Zero copa Americas. That's just sad.

Euros is much harder to win in comparison.

 

[Daysleeper]

Zero copa Americas. That's just sad.

Euros is much harder to win in comparison.

not the path Portugal had, injured Wales team, easiest bracket of the last 20 years in the euros.
Hell ronaldo ALWAYS gets knocked out by south American Teams (including chile who also beat Portugal in penalties last time they played) and then to Uruguay in most recent World Cup.

Eder is the only reason Ronaldo has a international trophy. 3 finals with Portugal and Ronaldo has been painfully mediocre at best in every single one of them. Really sad.

 

[Cal?]

the stupidity of Argentina beating a Chile side without messi, in the group stage. Portugal didn’t beat chile either in the same situation where Ronaldo was a passenger for 120 minutes.

ronaldo was doing absolutely nothing in the euro final and then got injured 25 minutes in. Portugal went on to win and has yet to beat them again ever since in the multiple matches both teams have Dave’s off and Ronaldo has played the full 90 against them since then both times.

How is the Copa the same situation as the Confederations Cup? The Copa is obviously a worse competition than the Euro (especially with them playing so often in recent years), but it's still way more important than the Confederation Cup.

They won the Euro against France in 2016, are you suggesting to compare their results against France 4 years later?

The Copa example I gave came within 21 days of each other.

 

[Daysleeper]

How is the Copa the same situation as the Confederations Cup? The Copa is obviously a worse competition than the Euro (especially with them playing so often in recent years), but it's still way more important than the Confederation Cup.

They won the Euro against France in 2016, are you suggesting to compare their results against France 4 years later?

The Copa example I gave came within 21 days of each other.

chile struggled mightily in group stages and then did much better in knockout stages. Sound familiar?

Also Portugal got in the easiest bracket that euro has had in the last 20 years. And Ronaldo keeps struggling against South American sides.

sure, a copa means more than federations cup but Portugal played a full squad and still lost to chile with Ronaldo

 

[Cal?]

not the path Portugal had, injured Wales team, easiest bracket of the last 20 years in the euros.
Hell ronaldo ALWAYS gets knocked out by south American Teams (including chile who also beat Portugal in penalties last time they played) and then to Uruguay in most recent World Cup.

Eder is the only reason Ronaldo has a international trophy. 3 finals with Portugal and Ronaldo has been painfully mediocre at best in every single one of them. Really sad.

3 finals with Portugal and Ronaldo has on 2 of them.

Messi on the other hand, has played 4 finals for Argentina, failed to score a single goal and lost them all.

 

[Daysleeper]

3 finals with Portugal and Ronaldo has on 2 of them.

Messi on the other hand, has played 4 finals for Argentina, failed to score a single goal and lost them all.

And yet the average Messi game in those finals was still comfortably better than any performance Ronaldo has had in a final. Ronaldo was far worse in his finals than Messi was in his.

 

[Cal?]

chile struggled mightily in group stages and then did much better in knockout stages. Sound familiar?

Also Portugal got in the easiest bracket that euro has had in the last 20 years. And Ronaldo keeps struggling against South American sides.

sure, a copa means more than federations cup but Portugal played a full squad and still lost to choke with Ronaldo

So you now agree that struggling in the group stage doesn't matter as long as you qualify for the knockout stage?

Portugal played Crotia (who finished above Spain in the group), Poland (who beat Switerzland), Wales (who beat Belgium) and France to win the Euro.

Argentina Switzerland, Belgium and Holland to make the WC final in 2014

I don't see Argentina's run being particularly harder.

As for Ronaldo struggling against South American sides, good thing he's European then.

 

[Cal?]

And yet the average Messi game in those finals was still comfortably better than any performance Ronaldo has had in a final. Ronaldo was far worse in his finals than Messi was in his.

Again, that's your opinion.

Fact: Messi played 4 finals with Argentina, failed to score and lost them all.

 

[Daysleeper]

So you now agree that struggling in the group stage doesn't matter as long as you qualify for the knockout stage?

Portugal played Crotia (who finished above Spain in the group), Poland (who beat Switerzland), Wales (who beat Belgium) and France to win the Euro.

Argentina Switzerland, Belgium and Holland to make the WC final in 2014

I don't see Argentina's run being particularly harder.

As for Ronaldo struggling against South American sides, good thing he's European then.

I’d take Holland over any of the teams Portugal faced prior to France easily. Wales was missing players due to injury andsuspensions. Belgium were horrible at those Euros, so were Spain.

Ronaldo would struggle winning the copa as well, and euros have a MUCH easier qualifying situation than copa America. Hell even 3 teams can qualify from the group stage let alone stat passing against the Faroe Islands and anodorras of the world just to qualify.

And Germany 2014 >>>> France 2016.

 

[Daysleeper]

Again, that's your opinion.

Fact: Messi played 4 finals with Argentina, failed to score and lost them all.

no, statistically Messi has performed better than Ronaldo in finals on average. Not option just fact, created far more big chances and far better for his team than Ronaldo was. “Failed to score”
Shows every flaw with Ronaldo fans. Ronaldo barely has good games without scoring or assisting, not the case with Messi. Ronaldo has been far worse for Portugal in finals getting bailed out by his teammates while Messi has been much better on average in the finals despite not scoring.

 

[Cal?]

I’d take Holland over any of the teams Portugal faced prior to France easily. Wales was missing players due to injury andsuspensions. Belgium were horrible at those Euros, so were Spain.

Ronaldo would struggle winning the copa as well, and euros have a MUCH easier qualifying situation than copa America. Hell even 3 teams can qualify from the group stage let alone stat passing against the Faroe Islands and anodorras of the world just to qualify.

And Germany 2014 >>>> France 2016.

Belgum have consistently been ranked above Holland since 2014, goes to show you'd just twist the situation to suit your agenda.

Ronaldo would never get to play in the Copa, it's pure speculation he'd struggle. What are you on about re qualifying? Every single team in Conmebol qualify for the Copa.

In every single edition of the Copa Messi has played (except 2016): 2007, 11, 15 & 19, they have group stages where 8 teams qualify from 12 (yes, 3rd placed teams in 2 of the 3 groups qualify for the knockout stage, the same siutation as Euro 2016 where 4 out of 6 3rd placed teams qualify in the Euro).

As for 2016, they invited a whole bunch of Concacaf teams, who frankly, except USA & Mexico, are there to make up the number (and all went out in the group stage).

Again, pure speculation regarding German 14 v France 16, France went on to win a WC in 18, Germany actually lost to France in 16.

 

[Bebestation]

I’d take Holland over any of the teams Portugal faced prior to France easily. Wales was missing players due to injury andsuspensions. Belgium were horrible at those Euros, so were Spain.

Ronaldo would struggle winning the copa as well, and euros have a MUCH easier qualifying situation than copa America. Hell even 3 teams can qualify from the group stage let alone stat passing against the Faroe Islands and anodorras of the world just to qualify.

And Germany 2014 >>>> France 2016.

Funny you say this acting like the teams in Copa America are better balanced than the teams you mention.

Peru, Chile, Paraguay, Venezuela etc.

Teams like Brazil and Uruguay have also hardly had a full first 11s of top players that are even comparable to that of Spains or Belgium. For example Brazils average defenders like David Luiz and Miranda or the uruguayan players that dont even play in europe.

Yet the greatest player of all time was only ever a winning player of a certain height of accolades for Barcelona. I can see why you are protective over him.

 

[Cal?]

no, statistically Messi has performed better than Ronaldo in finals on average. Not option just fact, created far more big chances and far better for his team than Ronaldo was. “Failed to score”
Shows every flaw with Ronaldo fans. Ronaldo barely has good games without scoring or assisting, not the case with Messi. Ronaldo has been far worse for Portugal in finals getting bailed out by his teammates while Messi has been much better on average in the finals despite not scoring.

Oh, so you're back to blaming Higuain for Messi's failure on the international stage.

 

[Daysleeper]

Funny you say this acting like the teams in Copa America are better balanced than the teams you mention.

Peru, Chile, Paraguay, Venezuela etc.

Teams like Brazil and Uruguay have also hardly had a full first 11s of top players that are even comparable to that of Spains or Belgium. For example Brazils average defenders like David Luiz and Miranda or the uruguayan players that dont even play in europe.

Yet the greatest player of all time was only ever a winning player of a certain height of accolades for Barcelona. I can see why you are protective over him.

Dude you’re the one blaming “race” for why Messi is liked more than Ronaldo hahahha I’m not the one being over protective

and Uruguay and chile both knocked out Portugal. Ronaldo wouldn’t fare much better in copa America.

 

[Daysleeper]

Oh, so you're back to blaming Higuain for Messi's failure on the international stage.

where did I mention higuain? Can you link me? Ronaldo only has a euro because of Eder that’s it. Otherwise he’s just as “empty” as Messi. Hell, sometimes Portugal looks better without whereas Argentina without Messi don’t even qualify for the WC.

 

[Daysleeper]

Belgum have consistently been ranked above Holland since 2014, goes to show you'd just twist the situation to suit your agenda.

Ronaldo would never get to play in the Copa, it's pure speculation he'd struggle. What are you on about re qualifying? Every single team in Conmebol qualify for the Copa.

In every single edition of the Copa Messi has played (except 2016): 2007, 11, 15 & 19, they have group stages where 8 teams qualify from 12 (yes, 3rd placed teams in 2 of the 3 groups qualify for the knockout stage, the same siutation as Euro 2016 where 4 out of 6 3rd placed teams qualify in the Euro).

As for 2016, they invited a whole bunch of Concacaf teams, who frankly, except USA & Mexico, are there to make up the number (and all went out in the group stage).

Again, pure speculation regarding German 14 v France 16, France went on to win a WC in 18, Germany actually lost to France in 16.

belgium were still very poor in those euros.Conceding 3 to Wales who were possibly the worst euro semi finalist of the last 30 years. Portugal had the easiest bracket for an NT winning team of the last 25 years. Going by every coefficient it’s true

 

[Cloud7]

It's not a race matter, it's the matter of fans viewing skill as the way they judge a footballers ability- the most average of fans dont even have the ability to look or judge a players mentality, the players desire to test himself in different scenarios and settings, his ability to be successful in so many different ways (ie national football).

It's the fans that view skill - the ability to nutmeg Boateng or to run pass Getafe once every season as what's different between the best players and the good players.

That is why Maradona and Pele and Messi are rated so highly by the fans that can only see skill as the way to judge a player alongside being a top goalscorer in La Liga etc. Skill of a player is heavily influenced by where they play football and the environment they were raised in.

Neymar, Ronaldinho, Messi, Maradona, Pele to Robinho, Sanchez and Dybala - you wont see these type of players playing consistently or developing in other national teams. Do you think there is more of a chance of the next Neymar developing in Brazil than the next Zlatan Ibrahimovic in Sweden?

Football is known as an entertainment, and people who are there with their jaws dropping after skill and technique (especially in a on the floor based league like La Liga for the whole of their career) will have an over skewed value of these players. Neymar is one of these prime examples for me, a player still valued by some by being in the top 5 players of the world (due to the type of football they play) whilst he has hardly done anything of note post Barcelona and has just been a good/very good player for a good/very good team. People will say stuff like Lewandowski has been the best player in the world for a consistent couple seasons now but people wont rate Lewandowski as a better player than Neymar as an all time player once both retire. It's like how you hear - player A is a better player but Player B had a better career. Why is that? Because some value the skill & technique of football played (which can be heavily reliant where you play football, who your team is and how they play football, the weather you play football in, who your opposition is for most of your career and even whether you are bought up in playing football in slums of Brazil or Argentina or the housing estates of Everton or Manchester). For example, If you think the England National team will consistently have a technically skilled entertaining player like how Brazil or Argentian south American teams create one atleast every half decade from fat Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Pele, Rivaldo, Romario to neymar or the poor Robinho - then so be it.

Some people dont value the technical ability or dribbles or the skills of a player as much as others do as a heavily weighted approach to who the best players are because it can be heavily skewed by multiple things.

This is one of the worst takes I've ever seen on here

 

[Pocho]

This is one of the worst takes I've ever seen on here

I quit reading at "It's not a race matter".

 

[Cal?]

where did I mention higuain? Can you link me? Ronaldo only has a euro because of Eder that’s it. Otherwise he’s just as “empty” as Messi. Hell, sometimes Portugal looks better without whereas Argentina without Messi don’t even qualify for the WC.

I saved us both time when you started going on about Messi creating big chances in finals, that will inevitably lead to Higuain missing them and why it's all his fault that Messi is shit wtih Argentina.

 

[Daysleeper]

I saved us both time when you started going on about Messi creating big chances in finals, that will inevitably lead to Higuain missing them and why it's all his fault that Messi is shit wtih Argentina.

messi has more goals than anyone else in Argentina history, and he did create those chances has nothing to do with higuain missing them. Ronaldo has been way more shit in the finals with Portugal thanks to Eder saving his NT trophy cabinet. It’s not even close, Messi is comfortably a better player in NT finals than Ronaldo.

but go ahead, soon you’ll be saying Palacio gets more chances than Ronaldo or some bizarre mental gymnastics when you have zero logic

 

[Cal?]

belgium were still very poor in those euros.Conceding 3 to Wales who were possibly the worst euro semi finalist of the last 30 years. Portugal had the easiest bracket for an NT winning team of the last 25 years. Going by every coefficient it’s true

Are you talking about the Euro only?

Argentina had to contend with such giants of the sport Venezuela and USA in the knockout rounds before losing to Chile that same year.

 

[Cal?]

messi has more goals than anyone else in Argentina history, and he did create those chances has nothing to do with higuain missing them. Ronaldo has been way more shit in the finals with Portugal thanks to Eder saving his NT trophy cabinet. It’s not even close, Messi is comfortably a better player in NT finals than Ronaldo.

but go ahead, soon you’ll be saying Palacio gets more chances than Ronaldo or some bizarre mental gymnastics when you have zero logic

Ronaldo has more international goals than anyone else in human history except for one Asian player whose record included (Maldives 8, Laos 8, Lebanon 6, Sri Lanka 5, Nepal 5, Guam 4, Chinese Taipei 4).

Ronaldo won 2 out of 3 finals he featured in, Messi lost all 4, no amount of spinning will change that fact.

 

[Daysleeper]

Ronaldo has more international goals than anyone else in human history except for one Asian player whose record included (Maldives 8, Laos 8, Lebanon 6, Sri Lanka 5, Nepal 5, Guam 4, Chinese Taipei 4).

Ronaldo won 2 out of 3 finals he featured in, Messi lost all 4, no amount of spinning will change that fact.

sure, but the conversation is about who plays better in the finals. Ronaldo being a ghost in the NT finals is absolute fact. Ronaldo gets to inflate his NT record as Europe has FAR more poor teams than South America. Better teams at the top but tons of smaller countries to play against. Qualifying in South America is much harder

 

[Cal?]

sure, but the conversation is about who plays better in the finals. Ronaldo being a ghost in the NT finals is absolute fact. Ronaldo gets to inflate his NT record as Europe has FAR more poor teams than South America. Better teams at the top but tons of smaller countries to play against. Qualifying in South America is much harder

Don't agree that WC qualifying is harder with Conmebol. Teams who failed to qualify for the WC:

2018 - Chile, Paraguay
2014 - Venezuela, Peru
2010 - Ecuador, Colombia

Uefa:

2018 - Holland, Italy, Ireland
2014 - Sweden, Denmark
2010 - Sweden, Croatia, Russia

I don't think the Conmebol group are any better than the Uefa group, if anything you can easily make case the European teams who missed out were better.

Talking about internationals, Portugal was never a regular in international tournaments before Ronaldo came along.

They qualified for 3 WCs (66, 86, 02) in their entire history before Ronaldo, they have made the last 4 in a row with him.

Euro they've also made 3 times before Ronaldo, ever since they've made every single finals tournament.

On the other hand, Argentina have only ever failed to make the WC once, with or without Messi.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Would you say Neymar is a better a player than Cristiano historically?

Of course not. I thought we were talking about the recent past and currently.

 

[Manuel Traquete]

There we go again with the Messi brigade equating their opinions to facts.

Most people in their right minds will agree that Ronaldo has been the far better player in the CL down the years.

Football is about results, not about looking pleasing on the eye. This wednesday Messi & his team mates didn't even make a dent in PSG's big lead in the first leg.


You Messi worshippers are never objective whenever it comes to him, does he ever perform badly in your book? You probably don't even think him missing that penalty against Chelsea was his fault.

On the other hand, many of you come up with ridiculous arguments like "Ronaldo did nothing apart from scoring 2-3 goals" in the game.

Sure Messi being better is an opinion. It's all opinions at the end of the day as there's no objective criteria for someone being a better player. But no, most people will not agree than Cristiano has been better.

If football is exclusively about results, then I hope you accept Juventus have lost in recent years because Sergio Oliveira, Memphis Depay and Van de Beek showed their superiority over Cristiano and that every player with a better career resumé in terms of titles is superior.

Missing the penalty against Chelsea was Messi's fault, he was the one who missed it. Would Barca's chance of winning increase by replacing Messi with any other player in the world? Nope. For starters, there's no 100% penalty takers, especially not Ronaldo btw, who's missed several important penalties himself; so it's not like you could replace Messi with someone who's guaranteed to slot in that penalty. Then of course, even there's the fact the overall level of the team would decrease with Messi replaced with someone else. Ultimately no player is perfect or can win alone, the best is the player who provides the biggest impact/gives you the best chances of winning all things being equal. That's Messi.

Ronaldo is a great player, in the same way someone like Lewandoski is a great player; if you have a strong team around them, they can win you things with their spectacular goalscoring ability. And no I'm not comparing them, although Lewa is underrated for sure, Ronaldo has had clearly the superior career. Even now at 36yo, any team in the world would benefit immensely from having Ronaldo. But he's not a genius/an offense unto himself like Messi is; no player can win anything alone, but Messi is as close as it gets, he can get you into contention for the biggest trophies while being simultaneously your primary scorer and playmaker

There is a very legitimate argument that Messi is the best scorer of all-time, the best playmaker of all-time and the best dribbler of all-time. Scorer imo is an absolute slam dunk, the other two he's absolutely up there. Cristiano is a great player, but he's just not that. In a way, it's a shame they will never play in the same team in their careers as that'd be the best way for most people to understand the gulf in quality (like they will understand just how much better Messi is than someone like Mbappe if he joins PSG next season or De Bruyne if he joins City).