Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Gehrman]

But I’d argue Ronaldo started later down that path. Up until he was 23 he wasn’t a great goal scorer nor tried to be. That’s what makes his record so incredible. I’m not even downplaying Messi, to score so many goals without the ability to consistently win headers and play deeper than other players is beyond a joke as well

Well yeah. I think Ronaldo's goal record past 30 years of age is incredible, but like you said Messi's ability to keep up his numbers whilst dropping deeper and taking up playmaker duties is incredible as well. I don't think Messi wants to be an out and out striker and you can say he is not suited for it, especially as he gets older which means Ronaldo will get more goals as a poacher.

 

[Daysleeper]

Well yeah. I think Ronaldo's goal record past 30 years of age is incredible, but like you said Messi's ability to keep up his numbers whilst dropping deeper and taking up playmaker duties is incredible as well. I don't think Messi wants to be an out and out striker and you can say he is not suited for it, especially as he gets older which means Ronaldo will get more goals as a poacher.

exactly Messi is doing it while playing further away from goal as he gets older while Ronaldo has become more and more of a poacher playing closer to goal as he has gotten older

 

[RedRonaldo]

No probably about it. He celebrated his 700th goal in 2019. That means he has scored 100 goals between the ages 34-36 in elite competition. That is a world class level.
He has adapted to old age so well that I can’t see what attribute he loses that means he drops off a goal scoring cliff. maybe the sudden burst of pace over the first few yards but do you really lose all that much of that when approaching 40?

It’s very likely he will celebrate his 800th goal soon in 2021, where he will become the first ever player to reach that milestone at top level. He is currently on 794.

 

[Gehrman]

exactly Messi is doing it while playing further away from goal as he gets older while Ronaldo has become more and more of a poacher playing closer to goal as he has gotten older

I've often tuned into a Messi game and see him receiving the ball with 5-6 players way ahead of him. That's just not a strikers role. In a way it feels like bit of a waste since he was easily the best goalscorer at Barca and currently at Argentina.

 

[Oranges038]

nope. That would be you

Ah, I was just having a bit of fun.

I'm not the one living in here defending my idol against every post.

 

[Daysleeper]

Ah, I was just having a bit of fun.

I'm not the one living in here defending my idol against every post.

and yet you keep responding to it after every post. Nobody takes message boards seriously, not even me. This is the fun in them. People can vent, act childish below their years and run their mouths as much as they like.

cheers!

 

[Daysleeper]

I've often tuned into a Messi game and see him receiving the ball with 5-6 players way ahead of him. That's just not a strikers role. In a way it feels like bit of a waste since he was easily the best goalscorer at Barca and currently at Argentina.

thank god Argentina look better now but it seemed Messi always had to pick up the ball in the middle of the pitch just to get it forward. Barca’s midfield in recent years was also overrated and Messi had to drop deeper to get the play going (not as deep as Argentina)

 

[Wolf1992]

I’m glad you don’t rate goals v lower sides and hype up goals v English sides. How you can make that argument when Ronaldo literally has more CL goals this season than Messi is hilarious by the way. Ronaldo has more than a goal a game over the last 40 Portugal matches as well
Just keep that in mind as the season progresses

Ronaldo has scored against a lot of goals against dross/semi professional teams playing for Portugal.

We should be counting only goals against tier 3 teams ,like Slovenia/Slovakia,etc an on...no point in mentioning hatricks/pokers against San Marino,Andorra,Malta,Faroe Islands, Gibraltar, Luxembourg,etc as an accomplishment.

According to Wikipedia, Cr7 has scored 115 goals for Portugal.

The top 10 teams he scored the most against are :

- Luxembourg
- Lithuania
- Sweden
- Andorra
- Hungary
- Armenia
- Latvia
- Slovenia
- Estonia
- Faroe Islands
- Netherlands

From those 10 teams only Sweden,Hungary,Slovenia and Netherlands are worth opponents.
He literally has 40 goals again the other 6 teams, which are rubbish like Estonia or semi-amateur like Faroe Islands.
The next 10 teams on the list look much better cause we have the likes of Belgium,Denmark,Spain,Russia,Bosnia, and Cameroon.

But those 40 goals against very rubbish/semi-proffesional sides like Luxembourg, Faroe Islands, Andorra,etc shouldn't be seen as an accomplishment... especially for a GOAT like Cristiano.

 

[Daysleeper]

Ronaldo has scored against a lot of goals against dross/semi professional teams playing for Portugal.

We should be counting only goals against tier 3 teams ,like Slovenia/Slovakia,etc an on...no point in mentioning hatricks/pokers against San Marino,Andorra,Malta,Faroe Islands, Gibraltar, Luxembourg,etc as an accomplishment.

According to Wikipedia, Cr7 has scored 115 goals for Portugal.

The top 10 teams he scored the most against are :

- Luxembourg
- Lithuania
- Sweden
- Andorra
- Hungary
- Armenia
- Latvia
- Slovenia
- Estonia
- Faroe Islands
- Netherlands

From those 10 teams only Sweden,Hungary,Slovenia and Netherlands are worth opponents.
He literally has 40 goals again the other 6 teams, which are rubbish like Estonia or semi-amateur like Faroe Islands.
The next 10 teams on the list look much better cause we have the likes of Belgium,Denmark,Spain,Russia,Bosnia, and Cameroon.

But those 40 goals against very rubbish/semi-proffesional sides like Luxembourg, Faroe Islands, Andorra,etc shouldn't be seen as an accomplishment... especially for a GOAT like Cristiano.

spot on. Yes, goals are goals but it’s also why Messi fans don’t celebrate hatricks against Bolivia.

 

[cyberman]

Ronaldo has scored against a lot of goals against dross/semi professional teams playing for Portugal.

We should be counting only goals against tier 3 teams ,like Slovenia/Slovakia,etc an on...no point in mentioning hatricks/pokers against San Marino,Andorra,Malta,Faroe Islands, Gibraltar, Luxembourg,etc as an accomplishment.

According to Wikipedia, Cr7 has scored 115 goals for Portugal.

The top 10 teams he scored the most against are :

- Luxembourg
- Lithuania
- Sweden
- Andorra
- Hungary
- Armenia
- Latvia
- Slovenia
- Estonia
- Faroe Islands
- Netherlands

From those 10 teams only Sweden,Hungary,Slovenia and Netherlands are worth opponents.
He literally has 40 goals again the other 6 teams, which are rubbish like Estonia or semi-amateur like Faroe Islands.
The next 10 teams on the list look much better cause we have the likes of Belgium,Denmark,Spain,Russia,Bosnia, and Cameroon.

But those 40 goals against very rubbish/semi-proffesional sides like Luxembourg, Faroe Islands, Andorra,etc shouldn't be seen as an accomplishment... especially for a GOAT like Cristiano.

And everybody else are playing France every week? If this had any bearing on records then surely there would be a lot more players with similar records? All the qualifying groups and even friendlies are skewed to bigger sides favour and I’d even argue Portugal aren’t an elite side in any case, so everybody is playing a similar standard of opposition and even then he is among the top scorers in every finals anyway.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Ronaldo has scored against a lot of goals against dross/semi professional teams playing for Portugal.

We should be counting only goals against tier 3 teams ,like Slovenia/Slovakia,etc an on...no point in mentioning hatricks/pokers against San Marino,Andorra,Malta,Faroe Islands, Gibraltar, Luxembourg,etc as an accomplishment.

According to Wikipedia, Cr7 has scored 115 goals for Portugal.

The top 10 teams he scored the most against are :

- Luxembourg
- Lithuania
- Sweden
- Andorra
- Hungary
- Armenia
- Latvia
- Slovenia
- Estonia
- Faroe Islands
- Netherlands

From those 10 teams only Sweden,Hungary,Slovenia and Netherlands are worth opponents.
He literally has 40 goals again the other 6 teams, which are rubbish like Estonia or semi-amateur like Faroe Islands.
The next 10 teams on the list look much better cause we have the likes of Belgium,Denmark,Spain,Russia,Bosnia, and Cameroon.

But those 40 goals against very rubbish/semi-proffesional sides like Luxembourg, Faroe Islands, Andorra,etc shouldn't be seen as an accomplishment... especially for a GOAT like Cristiano.

Sure, but other players have similar opportunities to score against those lesser teams too, didn't they? Especially if we are comparing with other top European players, from around same era participating the same competitions and qualifiers under same UEFA region (mostly WC finals+qualifiers and Euro finals+qualifiers etc):

Lewandowski 72 goals
Klose 71
Lukaku 68
Robbie Keane 68
Ibrahiminov 62
Dzeko 60
David Villa 59
Rooney 53
Henry 51
RVP 50
Shevchenko 48
Berbatov 48

But Ronaldo is on 115, there's quite a huge gap there, which shows how dominant he is over other top players in same era. I think let's not try to belittle such achievements, base on this fact alone. Not to mention the fact that he also has the record of most goals for WC+Euro finals combined, 2 of the biggest international tournaments.

 

[Wolf1992]

Sure, but other players have similar opportunities to score against those lesser teams too, didn't they? Especially if we are comparing with other top European players, from around same era participating the same competitions and qualifiers under same UEFA region (mostly WC finals+qualifiers and Euro finals+qualifiers etc):

Lewandowski 72 goals
Klose 71
Lukaku 68
Robbie Keane 68
Ibrahiminov 62
Dzeko 60
David Villa 59
Rooney 53
Henry 51
RVP 50
Shevchenko 48
Berbatov 48

But Ronaldo is on 115, there's quite a huge gap there, which shows how dominant he is over other top players in same era. I think let's not try to belittle such achievements, base on this fact alone. Not to mention the fact that he also has the record of most goals for WC+Euro finals combined, 2 of the biggest international tournaments.

Yes, Ronaldo is a better player than any on that list.
My point is not to overlook the 115 goals, as least half of those goals were against semi-proffesional/rubbish teams.
For comparison, i don't believe Lewandowski or Lukaku are better than Henry for scoring more goals against dross/semi-pro teams in UEFA qualifiers.In the same way i don't think Cristiano have better performances than Messi in International football just for scoring more goals against semi-pro teams.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Yes, Ronaldo is a better player than any on that list.
My point is not to overlook the 115 goals, as least half of those goals were against semi-proffesional/rubbish teams.
For comparison, i don't believe Lewandowski or Lukaku are better than Henry for scoring more goals against dross/semi-pro teams in UEFA qualifiers.In the same way i don't think Cristiano have better performances than Messi in International football just for scoring more goals against semi-pro teams.

I am not suggesting people to compare Ronaldo and Messi international goals stats directly, as they are from different region so there could be inconsistency to compare them, in the spirit of "apple to apple" comparison. But I always firmly believe if we compare with them other top players under similar settings/criteria, we may be able to judge by how dominance they are over those players in a more comparable sense, and this may give us better clues on how good they actually are (in terms of scoring international goals).

Let's not go into too much detail on many goals Ronaldo score against lesser teams or cannon folders, its simply not fair and will fall into case of double standard easily, as you only do it under microscope on Ronaldo, but not on anyone else.

And if we limited the scope on comparing those players who are actually overlapping with Ronaldo in majority of their playing career (lets say during 03-21 for Ronaldo case), and scale it to max 100%, with only players strictly playing under same region/competitions in same era:

Ronaldo - 115 goals during 03-21 (100%)
Lewandowski - 72 goals during 08-21 (62%)
Klose - 71 goals during 01-14 (61%)
Lukaku - 68 goals during 10-21 (59%)
Ibrahiminov - 62 during 01-21 (54%)
Dzeko - 60 goals during 07-21 (52%)
David Villa - 59 goals during 05-17 (51%)
Rooney - 53 goals during 03-18 (46%)

You can see all other top players who are comparable are only around 46% to 62% as good as Ronaldo, which actually shows how dominance Ronaldo is over the other top players.


In the same way, we could do the same on Messi if we want a fair comparison, and comparing him to other South American players who are overlapping with Messi in majority of their playing career (05-21), to see how dominance he is over others under similar criteria/condition.

Messi - 80 goals during 05-21 (100%)
Neymar - 69 goals during 10-21 (86%)
Suarez - 64 goals during 07-21 (80%)
Cavani - 52 goals during 08-21(65%)
Sanchez - 46 goals during 06-21 (57%)
Falcao - 35 goals during 07-21 (43%)

Other top players who are comparable are around 43%-86% as good as Messi in terms of scoring in international games under same region and similar settings.

Of course, there could be arguments on how good the players from different region are when comparing, so we will probably never come to same conclusion. But at the very least, this may give us better clues/picture on international goals comparison across different continent, at least in a fairer sense.

 

[Morty_]

I am not suggesting people to compare Ronaldo and Messi international goals stats directly, as they are from different region so there could be inconsistency to compare them, in the spirit of "apple to apple" comparison. But I always firmly believe if we compare with them other top players under similar settings/criteria, we may be able to judge by how dominance they are over those players in a more comparable sense, and this may give us better clues on how good they actually are (in terms of scoring international goals).

Let's not go into too much detail on many goals Ronaldo score against lesser teams or cannon folders, its simply not fair and will fall into case of double standard easily, as you only do it under microscope on Ronaldo, but not on anyone else.

And if we limited the scope on comparing those players who are actually overlapping with Ronaldo in majority of their playing career (lets say during 03-21 for Ronaldo case), and scale it to max 100%, with only players strictly playing under same region/competitions in same era:

Ronaldo - 115 goals during 03-21 (100%)
Lewandowski - 72 goals during 08-21 (62%)
Klose - 71 goals during 01-14 (61%)
Lukaku - 68 goals during 10-21 (59%)
Ibrahiminov - 62 during 01-21 (54%)
Dzeko - 60 goals during 07-21 (52%)
David Villa - 59 goals during 05-17 (51%)
Rooney - 53 goals during 03-18 (46%)

You can see all other top players who are comparable are only around 46% to 62% as good as Ronaldo, which actually shows how dominance Ronaldo is over the other top players.


In the same way, we could do the same on Messi if we want a fair comparison, and comparing him to other South American players who are overlapping with Messi in majority of their playing career (05-21), to see how dominance he is over others under similar criteria/condition.

Messi - 80 goals during 05-21 (100%)
Neymar - 69 goals during 10-21 (86%)
Suarez - 64 goals during 07-21 (80%)
Cavani - 52 goals during 08-21(65%)
Sanchez - 46 goals during 06-21 (57%)
Falcao - 35 goals during 07-21 (43%)

Other top players who are comparable are around 43%-86% as good as Messi in terms of scoring in international games under same region and similar settings.

Of course, there could be arguments on how good the players from different region are when comparing, so we will probably never come to same conclusion. But at the very least, this may give us better clues/picture on international goals comparison across different continent, at least in a fairer sense.

Keep in mind that Ronaldo played/plays for one of the stronger sides in Europe, not the strongest, but definitely one of the best.
Lewandowski, Ibra or Dzeko doesn't have the same luxury, just to point out the obvious ones.

 

[Camara]

Keep in mind that Ronaldo played/plays for one of the stronger sides in Europe, not the strongest, but definitely one of the best.
Lewandowski, Ibra or Dzeko doesn't have the same luxury, just to point out the obvious ones.

On the other hand being from a strong country doesn't guarantee an immediate place in the top as the list also shows.
(Just pointing out, I'm not wanting to enter in this debate)

 

[NasirTimothy]

Sure, but other players have similar opportunities to score against those lesser teams too, didn't they? Especially if we are comparing with other top European players, from around same era participating the same competitions and qualifiers under same UEFA region (mostly WC finals+qualifiers and Euro finals+qualifiers etc):

Lewandowski 72 goals
Klose 71
Lukaku 68
Robbie Keane 68
Ibrahiminov 62
Dzeko 60
David Villa 59
Rooney 53
Henry 51
RVP 50
Shevchenko 48
Berbatov 48

But Ronaldo is on 115, there's quite a huge gap there, which shows how dominant he is over other top players in same era. I think let's not try to belittle such achievements, base on this fact alone. Not to mention the fact that he also has the record of most goals for WC+Euro finals combined, 2 of the biggest international tournaments.

You’ve left out games played (for obvious reasons). Ronaldo has played over 180 games, way more than anyone else at the top of the international scorers list. Just to pick one example, Lukaku has a better goal to game ratio than Ronaldo does. So he is making hay against dross in the same way that CR is. Lewa’s ratio is also not far off CR’s and he plays for a worse team in Poland.

 

[RedRonaldo]

You’ve left out games played (for obvious reasons). Ronaldo has played over 180 games, way more than anyone else at the top of the international scorers list. Just to pick one example, Lukaku has a better goal to game ratio than Ronaldo does. So he is making hay against dross in the same way that CR is. Lewa’s ratio is also not far off CR’s and he plays for a worse team in Poland.

Sure, but then longevity and consistency are strength rather than weakness, aren’t they? There’s simply no one else able to play as many games and produce as many as Ronaldo yet at the highest level, you just can’t assume they would by simply going to ratio, even though it never happened. Many of them even retired earlier than Ronaldo despite starting around same time or later (ie Rooney, Villa, Klose etc). Then in the other thread, I also post comparison of Messi with other South American’s players, they all started later than Messi too, so at least it’s all fair and square.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Keep in mind that Ronaldo played/plays for one of the stronger sides in Europe, not the strongest, but definitely one of the best.
Lewandowski, Ibra or Dzeko doesn't have the same luxury, just to point out the obvious ones.

Which makes his record even more impressive, as almost no one from any stronger sides score nearly half as many as him.

 

[cyberman]

You’ve left out games played (for obvious reasons). Ronaldo has played over 180 games, way more than anyone else at the top of the international scorers list. Just to pick one example, Lukaku has a better goal to game ratio than Ronaldo does. So he is making hay against dross in the same way that CR is. Lewa’s ratio is also not far off CR’s and he plays for a worse team in Poland.

Lukaku won’t play 180 games and if he does he won’t have the same record as Ronaldo. Plus Lukaku has played as a striker all his international careers and, by my maths, Cristiano has 54 goals in his last 49 Portuguese games. That’s only 14 short of Lukakus overall record, which is ridiculous. In fact Ronaldo has matched Roms International record within his last 73 Portuguese games. Just think how ridiculous that is. Lukaku isn’t on the same planet as Cristiano. Ronaldo, in his 30s has outscored Rom in his 20s. Let that sink in.
Then, by your logic, you have to factor in that Belgium have had a better squad than Portugal over the last decade..

 

[kouroux]

Lukaku won’t play 180 games and if he does he won’t have the same record as Ronaldo. Plus Lukaku has played as a striker all his international careers and, by my maths, Cristiano has 54 goals in his last 49 Portuguese games. That’s only 14 short of Lukakus overall record, which is ridiculous. In fact Ronaldo has matched Roms International record within his last 73 Portuguese games. Just think how ridiculous that is. Lukaku isn’t on the same planet as Cristiano. Ronaldo, in his 30s has outscored Rom in his 20s. Let that sink in.
Then, by your logic, you have to factor in that Belgium have had a better squad than Portugal over the last decade..

Your last sentence is debatable for me. 10 years ago Belgium were a laughing stock

 

[NICanRed]

Ronaldo has scored against a lot of goals against dross/semi professional teams playing for Portugal.

We should be counting only goals against tier 3 teams ,like Slovenia/Slovakia,etc an on...no point in mentioning hatricks/pokers against San Marino,Andorra,Malta,Faroe Islands, Gibraltar, Luxembourg,etc as an accomplishment.

According to Wikipedia, Cr7 has scored 115 goals for Portugal.

The top 10 teams he scored the most against are :

- Luxembourg
- Lithuania
- Sweden
- Andorra
- Hungary
- Armenia
- Latvia
- Slovenia
- Estonia
- Faroe Islands
- Netherlands

From those 10 teams only Sweden,Hungary,Slovenia and Netherlands are worth opponents.
He literally has 40 goals again the other 6 teams, which are rubbish like Estonia or semi-amateur like Faroe Islands.
The next 10 teams on the list look much better cause we have the likes of Belgium,Denmark,Spain,Russia,Bosnia, and Cameroon.

But those 40 goals against very rubbish/semi-proffesional sides like Luxembourg, Faroe Islands, Andorra,etc shouldn't be seen as an accomplishment... especially for a GOAT like Cristiano.

Surely if we’re going to use goal tally as a measure we should only consider goals scored in “head to head” competition (and I don’t mean actual games)
Both players have played in WC finals, UCL games and La Liga. That would take away the Europe v S. America argument never mind the PL, Serie A and Ligue 1 scoring.
Unfortunately I don’t have access to that information but trust there is someone on here who does!

 

[Rojow]

Every player since about 1960 (and in some cases even before) has been recorded on film and since the internet came along, much of that film is available at the touch of a button. It’s not that complicated.

Sure. And you watched how many 90 minutes matches of Pelé?

 

[Gehrman]

Which makes his record even more impressive, as almost no one from any stronger sides score nearly half as many as him.

It's still admirable that Ronaldo turns up against the dross and statspads against them. He never gives up the chance to score some goals.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Sure. And you watched how many 90 minutes matches of Pelé?

This is not as clever a question as you think it is. Let me ask you one in return so I understand where you’re coming from: how many full matches of a player do you have to watch to determine how good they are? In your opinion?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I'd estimate it to be around fifty full games available (for Pelé). And much more additional footage (highlights, edited stuff, etc.).

Granted, a significant percentage of the full 90 stuff is late (NY Cosmos) - but there's plenty of earlier (full) games available, going all the way back to Sweden '58.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Lukaku won’t play 180 games and if he does he won’t have the same record as Ronaldo. Plus Lukaku has played as a striker all his international careers and, by my maths, Cristiano has 54 goals in his last 49 Portuguese games. That’s only 14 short of Lukakus overall record, which is ridiculous. In fact Ronaldo has matched Roms International record within his last 73 Portuguese games. Just think how ridiculous that is. Lukaku isn’t on the same planet as Cristiano. Ronaldo, in his 30s has outscored Rom in his 20s. Let that sink in.
Then, by your logic, you have to factor in that Belgium have had a better squad than Portugal over the last decade..

If Lukaku plays 180 games he’ll have the same or a better record than Ronaldo.

By the way the games where Ronaldo played and didn’t score still count, you can’t just start it from 25 or 30 or whatever. It’s not like he was banned from scoring in those games which is kind of what his fans like to suggest. He wasn’t a poacher early on but he was still a freaking forward player. You guys act like he was playing in goal.

Messi started off on the wing as well, why don’t people talk about the games he played wide where he scored less goals like the Ronaldo fans do? Because he never became a goalhanger so there’s not reason to artificially break down his goal record like that.

 

[NasirTimothy]

I'd estimate it to be around fifty full games available (for Pelé). And much more additional footage (highlights, edited stuff, etc.).

Granted, a significant percentage of the full 90 stuff is late (NY Cosmos) - but there's plenty of earlier (full) games available, going all the way back to Sweden '58.

This is correct re the internet but I had to use video back in the day so I’ve seen more than that. Nevertheless, more than enough (especially if you add in the hours and hours of clips as well) to get a very good idea of his game. 11 of his 14 World Cup matches are freely available too.

With someone like Maradona it’s easy, there’s 150-200 if you feel so inclined.

Cruyff is very well represented on the internet as well.

 

[cyberman]

If Lukaku plays 180 games he’ll have the same or a better record than Ronaldo.

By the way the games where Ronaldo played and didn’t score still count, you can’t just start it from 25 or 30 or whatever. It’s not like he was banned from scoring in those games which is kind of what his fans like to suggest. He wasn’t a poacher early on but he was still a freaking forward player. You guys act like he was playing in goal.

Messi started off on the wing as well, why don’t people talk about the games he played wide where he scored less goals like the Ronaldo fans do? Because he never became a goalhanger so there’s not reason to artificially break down his goal record like that.

Lukaku can play 180 games but he won’t keep up the same rate simply because what Ronaldo is doing is otherworldly. Plus he has to actually be good enough to get selected.

He is 29 with 101 caps, he would be near 40 and injury free to even appear never mind score. Imo you can analyse Ronaldo figures and draw conclusions, why take numbers at face value when you can add nuance to the debate? Ronaldo was a byline hugging winger for a good 25 to 30 caps for Portugal, of course that brings the rate down.it’s changing his game from that to a deadly forward that is an amazing aspect of his career that you just can’t gloss over. I just can’t get my head around trying to pretend Lukaku is scoring at the same rate when Ronaldo has matched Lukakus record in his last 73 games, a full 28 games quicker than Rom took to each 68.
Does that not tell you why you can’t take vast numbers at face value?
It’s a ridiculous statement to make.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Lukaku can play 180 games but he won’t keep up the same rate simply because what Ronaldo is doing is otherworldly. Plus he has to actually be good enough to get selected.

He is 29 with 101 caps, he would be near 40 and injury free to even appear never mind score. Imo you can analyse Ronaldo figures and draw conclusions, why take numbers at face value when you can add nuance to the debate? Ronaldo was a byline hugging winger for a good 25 to 30 caps for Portugal, of course that brings the rate down.it’s changing his game from that to a deadly forward that is an amazing aspect of his career that you just can’t gloss over. I just can’t get my head around trying to pretend Lukaku is scoring at the same rate when Ronaldo has matched Lukakus record in his last 73 games, a full 28 games quicker than Rom took to each 68.
Does that not tell you why you can’t take vast numbers at face value?
It’s a ridiculous statement to make.

Again, wingers are allowed to score goals. Because Ronaldo changed his position, his fans like to claim that you can’t count any of the early games where he played and didn’t score in his record. It doesn’t work like that. His international record is 115 goals in 182 games. That’s the fact. I refer you to my Messi point above. Why don’t we ever talk about the games he played on the wing and why they shouldn’t count in his goal record?

Also, you don’t actually know whether Lukaku will keep up the same rate or not. You’re just speculating.

 

[cyberman]

Again, wingers are allowed to score goals. Because Ronaldo changed his position, his fans like to claim that you can’t count any of the early games where he played and didn’t score in his record. It doesn’t work like that. His international record is 115 goals in 182 games. That’s the fact. I refer you to my Messi point above. Why don’t we ever talk about the games he played on the wing and why they shouldn’t count in his goal record?

Also, you don’t actually know whether Lukaku will keep up the same rate or not. You’re just speculating.

I have never brought up Messi goal scoring nor have I ever doubted it so you must be talking about someone else so you may take it up with them.
If you wanna stick with numbers then Rom won’t get 180 caps because only one man as in the history of European football and that’s Ronaldo. The odds of Rom doing that are so small that it is a safe assumption.
Rom has 49 in 49 yet Ronaldo has 54 in 49 so Ronaldo is even outscoring him now as we speak. Lukaku not reaching 115 goals is pretty safe since only one man in the history of football has done so.
Plus the fact Rom has said he nearly retired after the last Euros and that he won’t be playing for Belgium long into his 30s kind of gives it away.

 

[Camara]

Again, wingers are allowed to score goals. Because Ronaldo changed his position, his fans like to claim that you can’t count any of the early games where he played and didn’t score in his record. It doesn’t work like that. His international record is 115 goals in 182 games. That’s the fact. I refer you to my Messi point above. Why don’t we ever talk about the games he played on the wing and why they shouldn’t count in his goal record?

Also, you don’t actually know whether Lukaku will keep up the same rate or not. You’re just speculating.

Messi and Ronaldo positions were very different.
Ronaldo played as a wide midfielder in a 4-4-2 and his position meant he wasn't close to the area often, Messi played as a winger always cutting inside in one of the 3 forward positions.
Today Messi plays more in offensive midfield but he approaches the area from the central corridor, also different from what Ronaldo did in his early United years.

Also another factor (I'm not saying it is a big one) is that Ronaldo started in Sporting then moved to a Manchester United in transition while Messi started in a CL winner team with ballon d'or players, their early numbers might (were?) also affected by this.
BTW Ronaldo is the best scorer of the CL but he scored only on the 30th game which is "hilarious".

We don't know if Lukaku will or will not score more than Ronaldo, it's speculation on both ends, imho he won't because I *think* (not certain) he won't have the same longevity as Ronaldo.
The same thing about Messi being 2 years younger - we don't know if that will be an advantage for him as we don't know if he will have the same longevity as Ronaldo, it's just speculation - that we're allowed to comment on of course.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Messi and Ronaldo positions were very different.
Ronaldo played as a wide midfielder in a 4-4-2 and his position meant he wasn't close to the area often, Messi played as a winger always cutting inside in one of the 3 forward positions.
Today Messi plays more in offensive midfield but he approaches the area from the central corridor, also different from what Ronaldo did in his early United years.

Also another factor (I'm not saying it is a big one) is that Ronaldo started in Sporting then moved to a Manchester United in transition while Messi started in a CL winner team with ballon d'or players, their early numbers might (were?) also affected by this.
BTW Ronaldo is the best scorer of the CL but he scored only on the 30th game which is "hilarious".

We don't know if Lukaku will or will not score more than Ronaldo, it's speculation on both ends, imho he won't because I *think* (not certain) he won't have the same longevity as Ronaldo.
The same thing about Messi being 2 years younger - we don't know if that will be an advantage for him as we don't know if he will have the same longevity as Ronaldo, it's just speculation - that we're allowed to comment on of course.

You make fair points but the point is that Messi was also on the wing (whether it was exactly the same as Ronaldo’s position or not) and didn’t score many goals in the early part of his career. That’s never brought up with his figures but it’s constantly brought up with Ronaldo for some reason.

Also, the stat about the Champions League with CR7 contradicts what you were saying about Sporting Lisbon because I’m sure he didn’t play CL games with SL. He therefore basically started at Man United, one of the biggest and most successful clubs in the world under one of the greatest coaches of all time (which Rijkaard is not). So that argument is not a strong one for me.

I agree with what you said about speculation and projecting into the future.

 

[Gehrman]

You make fair points but the point is that Messi was also on the wing (whether it was exactly the same as Ronaldo’s position or not) and didn’t score many goals in the early part of his career. That’s never brought up with his figures but it’s constantly brought up with Ronaldo for some reason.

Also, the stat about the Champions League with CR7 contradicts what you were saying about Sporting Lisbon because I’m sure he didn’t play CL games with SL. He therefore basically started at Man United, one of the biggest and most successful clubs in the world under one of the greatest coaches of all time (which Rijkaard is not). So that argument is not a strong one for me.

I agree with what you said about speculation and projecting into the future.

I guess he just means there is a difference between being an inverted winger and a traditional winger. Inverted wingers are expected to score more because they cut inside while traditional wingers are expected to assist the forwards more. Still out and out wingers can still score many goals. However the roles are still different.

 

[NasirTimothy]

I have never brought up Messi goal scoring nor have I ever doubted it so you must be talking about someone else so you may take it up with them.
If you wanna stick with numbers then Rom won’t get 180 caps because only one man as in the history of European football and that’s Ronaldo. The odds of Rom doing that are so small that it is a safe assumption.
Rom has 49 in 49 yet Ronaldo has 54 in 49 so Ronaldo is even outscoring him now as we speak. Lukaku not reaching 115 goals is pretty safe since only one man in the history of football has done so.
Plus the fact Rom has said he nearly retired after the last Euros and that he won’t be playing for Belgium long into his 30s kind of gives it away.

49 and 49 and 54 in 49 is pretty similar, no?

 

[NasirTimothy]

I guess he just means there is a difference between being an inverted winger and a traditional winger. Inverted wingers are expected to score more because they cut inside while traditional wingers are expected to assist the forwards more. Still out and out wingers can still score many goals. However the roles are still different.

So the distinction is immaterial re goalscoring because out and out wingers can still score a lot of goals. Which was my original point.

I think inverted wingers are still supposed to create chances/assist the forwards when they cut inside by the way. It gives you an opportunity to shoot as well obviously, but that’s a low percentage shot from distance.

 

[Gehrman]

So the distinction is immaterial re goalscoring because out and out wingers can still score a lot of goals. Which was my original point.

I think inverted wingers are still supposed to create chances/assist the forwards when they cut inside by the way. It gives you an opportunity to shoot as well obviously, but that’s a low percentage shot from distance.

What I mean it's not either or, it's just that an inverted winger is expected to score more goals due to his role. George Best though scored loads of goals as a winger in a more traditional sense.

 

[Wolf1992]

It's still admirable that Ronaldo turns up against the dross and statspads against them. He never gives up the chance to score some goals.

I remember Thomas Müller complaining about having to play games against dross like San Marino,Andorra,etc after Germany trashed a semi-proffesional team like those in qualifiers.

People bashed him, but he was right...those games don't make any sense (except money for UEFA suits).

Indeed, admirable from Ronaldo to turn up against such semi-proffesional teams.

 

[Gehrman]

I remember Thomas Müller complaining about having to play games against dross like San Marino,Andorra,etc after Germany trashed a semi-proffesional team like San Marino.

People bashed him, but he was right...those games don't make any sense.

Indeed admirable from Ronaldo, to turn up against such semi-proffesional teams.

I think he just wasn't obsessed with statpadding despite his awesome stats. Pelé said that penalties were for cowards, but he's still obsessed with his own stats.

 

[Pronewbie]

I remember Thomas Müller complaining about having to play games against dross like San Marino,Andorra,etc after Germany trashed a semi-proffesional team like San Marino.

People bashed him, but he was right...those games don't make any sense.

Indeed admirable from Ronaldo, to turn up against such semi-proffesional teams.

TBF it's been widely reported how Ronaldo wants to play every single game possible.. He skipped the recent trip to Qatar only because he wanted to focus on his preparations with us for his debut.

 

[NasirTimothy]

I remember Thomas Müller complaining about having to play games against dross like San Marino,Andorra,etc after Germany trashed a semi-proffesional team like those in qualifiers.

People bashed him, but he was right...those games don't make any sense (except money for UEFA suits).

Indeed, admirable from Ronaldo to turn up against such semi-proffesional teams.

There needs to be tiers in European qualifying.