ah yeah, forgot he missed the final bar the first 20 mins.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Fergie is always going to back his boy. I don't disagree though with Ronaldo's athletism and mentality. I'd disagree though about whether this makes him the best. There is no doubt about the fact that Ronaldo is having a better 2021-2022 season than Messi so far and I suspect that Messi will retire from european football at an earlier age than Ronaldo because he's not built like Ronaldo. For me Messi will always be the genius while Ronaldo is the machine. Of course Ronaldo has his own magic as well it's just of a different kind.
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Amadeus can fill the void in the Poch thread.
Well you better hope Messi doesn’t end up with more CLs then.
They’ll also remember that he wasn’t even the best player at that tournament.
By the way, you keep bringing up Argentina’s 15 victories but neglect to mention that 12 of them were before 1960. In the last 60 years they’ve won it 3 times. So they haven’t actually dominated the tournament across the board like you are trying to imply. And I think we all remember players like Batistuta and Goycochea (the stars of the wins in the early 90s) even though those victories were almost 30 years ago.
No, I’m explaining why dribbling is important. There are 3 chief skills in football (or any team ball sport): passing, dribbling (or ball carrying/running) and shooting/finishing. Then you have to add in tackling as well. They are all important and shooting cannot be deemed to be more important than the rest because it is reliant on the other skills being effectively utilised for opportunities to be created. You can’t shoot without the ball and you can’t shoot from your own penalty area. Everything on a football pitch is connected, and the more you affect all of the hundreds and hundreds of actions that take place the better a player you are. That’s why I believe Messi, Maradona and Pele were all better players than CR.
I mean ok, but virtually every single all time elite player was also a great dribbler and it formed a huge part of their identities. Pele, Maradona, Messi, Best, Garrincha, Cruyff etc. Why is that?
OK
I don’t think it’s cult like to say that Pele and Maradona were perhaps better players than Messi, which I’ve said on many occasions. I just think if you’re looking for the GOAT you can’t look beyond those three. I think most people deeply involved in the game (players, coaches, journalists etc) would agree, except for those who are in some way biased (played with CR etc). Amongst people who see him at close quarters, the notion of CR being the best ever is a minority opinion, though he has many millions of casual fans.
You always seem the most balanced poster in this thread...good post.
We can only hope that if we are lucky enough to see two players of this calibre again then all the posters in this thread are already dead.
Grealish Vs Sancho 2024. You heard it here first.
It’s not just Messi though, saw a stat that only Lewandoski has outscored him since 2020. Ronaldo is sitting on 84 goals in 98 games. For reference that’s 24 odd ahead of Salah ffs!
Is there anything to be said for Messi copying Ronaldo and playing further up the pitch? Get closer to goal and minimise his movement to short bursting runs? He isn’t moving that much as it is but at least the team wouldn’t suffer for it.
This thread was our generations World War 2. Your grandsons are going to ask you what the internet was like back in your day and you're going to get flashbacks of this thread and then lash out and frisbee a plate into his head or something.
Which side is which...?
I don't know, Messi isn't a great header of the ball and I don't think he wants to be a poacher. You can tell when he gives away penalites that he seems less obsessed with his stats. He obviously wants to score goals, but he's always identified with being more of a nr 10 than a nr 9. He's still managed to score quite a lot goals in last 2 seasons so far as well as beating Xavi's assist record in the 2019/2020 season. . He's been dissapointing in PSG so far apart from his CL goals, but he's also havn't played many minutes and seems to struggle with minor injuries. I think he'll get going at some point, but I think his overall return won't that much this season.
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He certainly has a better chance this year than Ronaldo.
Do they? Most people remember Germany won the WC in 1990, France in 1998, do they remember no one from those teams won player of the tournament? Do people in generally even care much about player of the tournament? or you're just making a big deal out of it cause Messi has won a few?
That's not the point, it's about the fact that Argentina has regularly won tournaments in their footballing history, unlike Portugal who had never won anything until Ronaldo.
People who follow football would know the likes of Batistuta and Goycochea, but if you're talking about GOAT level, those players that old ladies who never had any interest in football would still have heard of, the likes of Pele, Maradona. There are only 2 in this era.
Shooting can be deemed more important, hence club are willing to pay more for players who excel at shooting more than dribbling.
Of course you're entitled to your view, I just disagree with it.
Beckenbauer, Di Stefano? Let's not forget Ronaldo isn't bad at dribbling, it's just not his greatest strength. Dribbling is perhaps Messi's most standout trait, not surprised you lot value dribbling above all else.
I think both Ronaldo & Messi are ahead of Pele & Maradona, with Ronaldo a little ahead.
If you're only going to include professionals, Ronaldo has received plenty of votes in those Fifa WPOTY awards
Not necessarily true though. First of all, Ronaldo was a great dribbler too during his younger years (he was one of the very best dribbler in the world for a while, during Ronaldinho era and after, and until after Messi fully entering the scene at the very top), but truth is, he wasn't elite dribbler in terms of GOAT standing over his career, as he has changed/adapted his game several times over his career, focusing more on all round game/efficiency/output/impact rather than trickery/skills/showboating. But lets not forget he used to be one of the most talented dribbling trickster in football during his younger years.
And this is my GOAT tier, of what I regarded as the most commonly recognised GOAT ranking:
Tier 1: Pele, Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo
Tier 2: Di Stefano, Cruyff, Beckenbauer
Tier 3: Platini, Zico, Muller, Best, Garrincha, Esuebio, Puskas, Charlton, Zidane, L.Ronaldo, Van Basten etc
Sure Ronaldo is comparatively the worst dribbler among tier 1, but Di Stefano is not the best dribbler in Tier 2 either, whereas in Tier 3, I wouldn't say Muller, Puskas, Charlton, Platini, Van Basten etc are the very best dribbler in their time. Sure some of them could dribble very well, but they are not among the elite dribbler in terms of GOAT standing, under same criteria applies to Ronaldo.
Agreed
Of course people care about it. Do I remember Ronaldo from ‘98 and Schillaci from 1990? Yes I do. I’m sure most other people do as well.
Why does it matter when a whole bunch of those tournaments were won in the 20s and 30s? We’re talking about living memory here. And Portugal is a small country but not a footballing minnow, I’d put them on a similar level to Holland in terms of pedigree.
That’s a different argument.
Not actually true. Look at the current list of highest transfers in football history. In the top 10, you have Neymar, Coutinho, Dembele, Griezmann, J. Felix, Paul Pogba, Jack Grealish and Eden Hazard. None of these players except Neymar are extraordinarily prolific goal wise. However, they are all creative players. That is the most prized asset in football, not shooting/scoring.
I mean Jack Grealish has about 40 career goals, if shooting/scoring was the most prized thing then there’s no way he would have been sold for north of a hundred million.
Look also at the historical list of world record transfers: Zidane, Maradona (twice), Pogba, Kaka, Luis Figo, your friend Denilson, Baggio, Gullit, Cruyff, Sivori etc etc. A lot of dribblers in that group.
So basically you are totally wrong on this point. Obviously there are out and out goalscorers that are highly prized as well (I’m sure Haaland is going to cost a bomb when he moves), but it’s totally false to claim that they are always deemed the most valuable. They are not.
OK
It was also Maradona’s stand out trait. A lot of people think he is the greatest playerof all time. It’s not some fringe belief to value dribbling. I would suggest the devaluing of it by Ronaldo fans (for obvious reasons) is the weird stance.
You are entitled to your opinion but I can’t see a logical reason for that belief. I do accept that comparing across eras is difficult however.
The issue is many people who think Ronaldo and Messi are ahead of Maradona for example, never saw Maradona play. Obviously there’s a similar issue with Pele.
That is not the same as giving an opinion on who the better player is.
this is like last season when Messi looked finished in the first half, while Cristiano was doing good, now it remains to see if Messi can turn around like last season, and finish strongly in individual level.
The fact both were topscorers in those tournaments may be the main reason, perhaps you care much more about these awards.
I honestly cannot remember who were the player of the tournament in any Euro in the last 20 years or so.
It remains that Argentina have been much more successful in the memory of most current football fans, having won 2 WC, 3 Copas in the last few decades.
Portugal 2016 was their equivalent of Holland 1988, their breakthrough moment of actually winning something.
Neymar, Mbappe (who you somehow left out) are the top 2.
Grealish cost 100m but Levy wouldn't sell Kane (an older player) for the same amount because Kane is supposed to be a more valuable player than Grealish.
The world record transfers in the last 30 years, don't you agree that there are far more players who are scorers than dribblers? Not saying said scorers don't dribble, just not their biggest selling points.
1990 Italy Roberto Baggio
1992 France Jean-Pierre Papin
1992 Italy Gianluca Vialli
1992 Italy Gianluigi Lentini
1996 Brazil Ronaldo
1996 England Alan Shearer
1997 Brazil Ronaldo
1998 Brazil Denílson
1999 Italy Christian Vieri
2000 Argentina Hernán Crespo
2000 Portugal Luís Figo
2001 France Zinedine Zidane
2009 Brazil Kaká
2009 Portugal Cristiano Ronaldo
2013 Wales Gareth Bale
2016 France Paul Pogba
2017 Brazil Neymar
OK
Like I already said, dribbles leading somewhere is useful, just like tackles won or headers won or whatever, but the "successful dribble" itself is a pointless stat as it doesn't tell you from where said dribble began and where it ended.
Fair enough, have you seen Pele play enough to insist on him being better than Ronaldo?
You have to wonder how long he can keep up his consistentsy. I know his constant comparison is Ronaldo, but he's not built like Ronaldo. I wrote of him in the beginning of last season though and then had a great 2nd of the season and summer, so I don't know. Sooner or later somethings got to give.
Ronaldo was not the top scorer in 1998 so I’m afraid you’re wrong here again.
OK. I mean the Euros was generally of far less value than the World Cup in the past (same for the Copa) which is maybe why you can’t remember. My memory of great performances in the World Cup is pretty clear.
One of those World Cups was in 1978. In the last 30 years (a generation), they’ve had 2 Copa wins before this year. And those were almost 30 years ago. This actually matters. Liverpool have millions of fans who cannot remember them winning the league before Klopp. It’s the same with Argentina.
Agreed, but in both cases they had great players and iconic teams long before that breakthrough. It’s not the same as winning the Euros with Norway. Or even Denmark.
I wasn’t listing everyone, just showing you the abundance of creative players v out and out strikers (not that Mbappe is the latter necessarily)
In that list, I count five players that are out and out scorers. Papin, Vialli, Shearer, Vieri and Crespo. Out of 17. Even if I give you the two Ronaldos, (which would be inaccurate; CR in 2009 was not a centre forward and R9 was an incredible dribbler in addition to his goals) that’s still only 7. How many can you see?
All stats require context. But a successful dribble means that you have got past an opposition player which takes that player temporarily out of the game and leaves more space in front of you than there would otherwise be. That’s important.
Yes, he was before my time but I’ve seen enough footage of him to insist that he is better than any other player who ever lived. Because I made it a goal to research him properly (as I did with Maradona, even though I saw him play). There is no one else who could do all the things Pele could do.
C. Ronaldo is seriously not even close IMO. He is really only an elite goalscorer (and arguably an elite dribbler in his early career). Pele was an elite scorer, an elite dribbler and an elite playmaker. He mastered the game in its entirety.
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Netherlands pedigree is superior to Portugal.
Portugal never reached a WC final, Netherlands did 3 times, and never crashed out in group stage (unlike Portugal).
Plus Netherlands historically had more world class players than Portugal.
As good as Portugal is, the only time they were favorites to win a WC was in 1966 with Eusebio.
I can assure Netherlands is gonna do better than Portugal in the next WC, if both quality, even if Portugal on paper has better players.
And when you ask professional player, that vast majority of them will rate Messi higher than Ronaldo, including United icons like Scholes, Giggs, Rooney, Berbatov or Berckham.
you think so? I feel like the Dutch choke a bit in knockouts but obviously by the time the next WC rolls around anything is possible
Out of curiosity are PSG fans frustrated with Messi right now? He’s done well enough in CL but his lack of goals in the league must have some fans antsy I imagine?
I mean it’s not gonna be exactly the same because Portugal is smaller, but there are similarities. Portugal has a great football history, a few CL/EC winning teams and a few Ballon D’Or winning players.
Ok, they haven’t reached the WC final but they’ve reached the semis twice, in 66 and 2006.
The point remains that I and many others care very little who won these awards
Yet you go on and on about Messi's copa player of tournament when the Copa is far less value than the Euro.
Whatever, can't believe you're arguing that Portugal's first ever trophy isn't a bigger deal than Argentina winning Copa.
Yes, and before Ronaldo they never tasted success
I'm not arguing about creative players v strikers, it's about players who's biggest asset being dribbling vs players who's biggest asset being scoring.
Lentini, Denilson, Figo, maybe Bale at a stretch being more a dribbler than a scorer?
Most forward passes takes one or more opposition player temporarily out of the game.
Let's just agree to disagree, I've seen plenty of footage of both Pele and Maradona and for me, Ronaldo & Messi are both a class above.
Netherlands doing better than Portugal it's what has happened almost always in WC, no surprise if it happens again in 2022.
Because Ronaldo has never won any.
Disagree. Why is it? Which player in history who only won the Euros was deemed to be the GOAT or close to it? Did having a great Euros in 1988 (a far better Euros than CR incidentally) make Van Basten the GOAT?
It’s a very big deal for Portugal. I would think it was a bigger deal for Ronaldo had he actually done anything memorable in the tournament. He wasn’t the top scorer, he wasn’t the best player, he didn’t score any great goals and he didn’t even play in the final outside of the first 15-20 minutes. Hardly iconic. I refer again to Van Basten and also Michel Platini for examples of how to do it properly.
Well before Eder technically
I don’t think Roberto Baggio or Kaka were primarily thought of as scorers either, though they both got goals. Baggio is described on wiki (not definitive, but an example) as a playmaker, dribbler and scorer. In that order. Kaka is placed as a passer, scorer and dribbler.
Then you have players like Zidane and Pogba who are not really thought of as scorers or dribblers (though Zidane was in fact a great dribbler). The point is that it’s not all about who scores the most goals. Creativity is the most prized thing.
And passing is also very important. Ronaldo is not especially good at that either, by elite standards.
You should watch full matches. I don’t know how you can conclude that a guy who is not a great playmaker and who basically stopped dribbling for 10 years is better than Pele but everyone can have their own opinion on these things. I venture that it’s not a logical opinion however.
They're more frustrated about the fact that we would have needed a midfielder instead of Messi. They are disapointed about his performances of course but weirdly enough, they didn't have huge expectations because most fans didn't really expect him to come, they understand it was just an opportunity. Now, he could totally wake up and be back to a very good shape but i wouldn't say that there's a huge frustration towards him at the moment.
Fair point
Van Basten is definitely the best dutch player in history after Johan Cruyff, not Maradona,Pele, or Cruyff level, but definitely between best 15-20 players in history of Football, which is massive achievementBecause Ronaldo has never won any.
Disagree. Why is it? Which player in history who only won the Euros was deemed to be the GOAT or close to it? Did having a great Euros in 1988 (a far better Euros than CR incidentally) make Van Basten the GOAT?
It’s a very big deal for Portugal. I would think it was a bigger deal for Ronaldo had he actually done anything memorable in the tournament. He wasn’t the top scorer, he wasn’t the best player, he didn’t score any great goals and he didn’t even play in the final outside of the first 15-20 minutes. Hardly iconic. I refer again to Van Basten and also Michel Platini for examples of how to do it properly.
Well before Eder technically
I don’t think Roberto Baggio or Kaka were primarily thought of as scorers either, though they both got goals. Baggio is described on wiki (not definitive, but an example) as a playmaker, dribbler and scorer. In that order. Kaka is placed as a passer, scorer and dribbler.
Then you have players like Zidane and Pogba who are not really thought of as scorers or dribblers (though Zidane was in fact a great dribbler). The point is that it’s not all about who scores the most goals. Creativity is the most prized thing.
And passing is also very important. Ronaldo is not especially good at that either, by elite standards.
You should watch full matches. I don’t know how you can conclude that a guy who is not a great playmaker and who basically stopped dribbling for 10 years is better than Pele but everyone can have their own opinion on these things. I venture that it’s not a logical opinion however.
Also his performance in Euro 1988 was superior to any performance Cristiano had for Portugal in a big tournament.
The Euro with 8-16 teams was definitely superior in level than Copa America, wether if the best player of the tournament was considered goat or not...and I'm south american btw, but Copa America was very irregular and disorganized until 2011, Brazil used to send subs and C teams for a long time.
He did score two great goals though. That backheel vs Hungary was a brilliantly improvised technical finish. The towering header vs Wales was also pretty nice.
Having the ability is one thing, maintaining the drive into your mid 30s and beyond is another.
Messi is finished. Ronnie is not.
Messi is finished. Ronnie is not.
Not really, when people talk about Pele or Maradona, do they go on about how many players of tournaments they've won?
Which player in history who only won the Copa was deemed to be the GOAT or close to it?
Both Ronaldo & Messi are in the discussion due to their club exploits.
He was topscorer for PortugalIt’s a very big deal for Portugal. I would think it was a bigger deal for Ronaldo had he actually done anything memorable in the tournament. He wasn’t the top scorer, he wasn’t the best player, he didn’t score any great goals and he didn’t even play in the final outside of the first 15-20 minutes. Hardly iconic. I refer again to Van Basten and also Michel Platini for examples of how to do it properly.
Well before Eder technically
Now you're changing if to creativity, I merely pointed out that scoring is more prized than dribbling.
What? Did you see the Cavani goal at the weekend? Just because Ronaldo is not often in those positions to pass or cross nowadays doesn't mean he's not good at it.
Most of the footage I've seen of Pele involved him scoring against non-existent (but sometimes violent) defending.
Yes of course. The World Cup Golden Ball was one of Maradona’s most prized possessions and it was once stolen from him, there’s a whole story about it.
Alfredo DiStefano
I meant top scorer in the tournament, as you are surely aware. For Portugal, he was tied with the mighty Nani on 3 goals. The stuff that legends are made of.
No, you presented a list and said that there were more scorers than dribblers on it. But you left out the people that did both. But as an example if you’re just talking about those with supposedly singular skills: take Luis Figo. He cost more than all the players who were just scorers. Who’s a better player, Figo or Vieri? Figo or Alan Shearer? Figo or Crespo? Figo or Vialli? Figo or Papin?
He’s decent at it but you wouldn’t call him a great passer by any stretch of the imagination, not at any point in his career.
Please watch the games. Start with England v Brazil in 1970. It’s freely available online. If you think that the defending there is non existent then I can’t help you.
By the way, defending can’t be both violent and non-existent. That’s a contradiction in terms.
Impossible to say who is better - but I still claim they are the 2 best players in the history of football.
Disagree
Tell me you don’t watch much football without telling me you don’t watch much football.
Good goals but not great.
Can’t see them listed here for example. And there are goals from that same tournament included.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52870086
Messi has had a wank start to league 1 so far, but he's also struggled with minor injuries. However he's still 1st or 2nd favourite to the 2021 Ballon D'or. I think Lewadownski will win it though.
Not disputing that or your first hand knowledge, but there clearly must have been periods when it was taken more seriously. I know Pele played in one edition (and was the top scorer, natch) but Brazil finished as runners up in a league format.
Maradona also played in 89, I’ve seen the game where Romario and Bebeto put on a masterclass to defeat Argentina. Romario was unfortunately not fit for the following year’s World Cup and Argentina got their revenge.
Then of course you have the Ronaldo-Romario tandem which we saw in the Copa but sadly never in the World Cup.
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