and that even Ronaldo would admit Pepe was Portugal’s best asset that year much like mascherano was for Argentina in 2014.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Goals, assists etc are hard data, MotM awards are decided by someone’s opinion
But it's an opinon based on performance. Like David Gea being our best player during the LVG, Mourinho years before he became shit.
Like I wrote before, you'd think that Messi was obviously motm of the 2009 final since he is a goat and got on the scoresheet, but Iniesta fully deserved his motm award.
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This sounds like that hilarious time when Ronaldo said that the golden boot was worth more than the Ballon D’Or because the Ballon D’Or was based on arbitrary opinion. And then Messi ended up with more of both
Anyway, goals and assists are ‘hard data’ but they don’t actually prove anything. Unless of course you think that Lewa and Benzema are the 3rd and 4th best players of the past 30 years……
If you want hard data, then factor in all the hard data. Goals per match, assists per match, conversion ratio , xg etc.
Also MotM isn't someone's opinion. It's a consensus, like Balon Do'r, Player of the year etc. Football is watched by a crowd didn't you know?
Again, Ronaldo has received more votes in Ballon D'or in more years than Messi has.This sounds like that hilarious time when Ronaldo said that the golden boot was worth more than the Ballon D’Or because the Ballon D’Or was based on arbitrary opinion. And then Messi ended up with more of both
Anyway, goals and assists are ‘hard data’ but they don’t actually prove anything. Unless of course you think that Lewa and Benzema are the 3rd and 4th best players of the past 30 years……
MotM awards don't actually prove anything either, unless you think football should be scored by judges like diving or gymnastics.
When you say Ronaldo has more votes in the Balon D'or, you're saying what you've said many times before. Why not interpret or draw a conclusion from that, so we can discuss? What do you think it means? ( Don't just say it means Ronaldo is better. Explain how you came to whatever conclusion you offer)Again, Ronaldo has received more votes in Ballon D'or in more years than Messi has.
MotM awards don't actually prove anything either, unless you think football should be scored by judges like diving or gymnastics.
It means more people thought he had better years than Messi than the other way round in the last 15 years or so.
2008 to 2020 is 12 years.
There have been 12 balon dor awards
Messi 6, Ronaldo 5, Modric 1.
So Messi has definitely been better for 6, and Ronaldo has definitely been better for 5.
So even if Ronaldo was better when modric won it, its still 6-6.
Which means 5hat Ronaldo having more Balon dor votes is due to something other than the conclusion you came up with( Ronaldo having more better years.
Do you agree?
If not, then can you point to a flaw in the logic?
If you do agree, please come up with an alternative theory as to why Ronaldo has more votes
You keep saying that as if it means something, but Messi will probably end his career with more votes in the Ballon D’Or than Ronaldo. He’s two and half years younger. He’s about to get more in this upcoming edition. What will you say then?Again, Ronaldo has received more votes in Ballon D'or in more years than Messi has.
MotM awards don't actually prove anything either, unless you think football should be scored by judges like diving or gymnastics.
And I’m not saying MOTM is the be all and end all, just that it is the only metric we have discussed that judges individual game performance. Goals don’t do that. Assists don’t do that. Team trophies don’t do that. Sorry.
I’m pretty sure if we were to do a complete statistical breakdown of CL performance, it would be heavily in Messi’s favour as well.
Football started in 2008? You lot are desperate to credit Messi for that first CL win in 2006 yet when it comes to Ballon D'or, nothing before 2008 counts?
He's younger but will he retire later? Rooney is younger than Ronaldo too.
Not sure if you're serious about the CL one, Ronaldo has more wins, more goals (far more in QF onwards), more assists, what stat does Messi win in CLs? Dribbles?
Did Ronaldo or Messi win the Balon D'or before 2008?Football started in 2008? You lot are desperate to credit Messi for that first CL win in 2006 yet when it comes to Ballon D'or, nothing before 2008 counts?
Anyways, Do you agree with the logic or not?
Who said anything about wins, fact is Ronaldo received more votes than Messi in 2004, 05, 06 & 07.
Even if we start the count in 2006 (the CL that gets credited to Messi), Ronaldo is clearly in the lead.
Rooney smokes and has boxing matches in his front room. Not a good comparison.He's younger but will he retire later? Rooney is younger than Ronaldo too.
Not sure if you're serious about the CL one, Ronaldo has more wins, more goals (far more in QF onwards), more assists, what stat does Messi win in CLs? Dribbles?
Come on, you’re better than this Cal. A full breakdown would of course include dribbles (they actually do matter, and have done since the beginning of time, despite what Ronaldo acolytes would try and tell you) but also XG, chances created, big chances created, key passes, completed passes, stats per 90 (to address the fact that Ronaldo has played more games) etc etc. This is not hard.
This is a desperate grasp at straws even for you. Messi under Rijkaard was usually injured for about a third of every season. He was still clearly more talented than Ronaldo at that time but he wasn’t going to get more votes because he wasn’t playing as much as the older guy. Dear oh dear…..
I admire the passion you people have to keep arguing about this for so long.
Never mind Rooney, how many top players are still playing at top clubs (if you can call United that right now) at 36? Does Messi strike you as being similar to Ronaldo or Zlatan in his physical condition (nothing to do with skills in this part of the discussion).
Anyway, we clearly disagree on this, for me dribbles mean feck all unless they lead to goals (or at least chances created), otherwise someone like Denilson would be considered a top player.
If you want to do stats per game for the CL, please go ahead, but I'd suggest you should weigh knockout games higher than group games too (to address the fact Ronaldo takes his team further in more occasions).
Admire or pity?
Oh, so somehow he played a vital part (according to your fellow Messi brigade members) in the 2006 CL win but Ballon D'or voting in 2006 should be ignored.
Messi has a better goals pr game ratio than Ronaldo in the CL, but I agree that Ronnie's superior goal record in the knockouts counts for more.
So now you reveal where you're getting at. Couldn't it be because he was older and further along development?
You can’t just reference a single player that didn’t live up to his billing as proof of your dodgy notions Cal. I suppose Stanley Matthews was a nothing player then was he? Shall we call him the ‘wizard of feck all’ instead? What a charlatan.
I’m sure Mane Garrincha, George Best, Ryan Giggs, Jimmy Johnstone, Diego Maradona, Roberto Rivellino, Luis Figo, Pierre Littbarski and Jairzinho were all similarly useless, right?
Re Messi, he just had his best ever international tournament at the age of 34. I’m sure he’ll keep going at a high level for a few years yet. Don’t let this prospect scare you too much
Two separate things, but you inadvertently prove what I’m saying. His performances in that tournament were world class (e.g. v Chelsea when he terrorised the best defence in the world), hence his medal is warranted.Oh, so somehow he played a vital part (according to your fellow Messi brigade members) in the 2006 CL win but Ballon D'or voting in 2006 should be ignored.
Then what happened? He got injured. Had he been fit consistently in those early seasons he would have got a lot more BDO votes because his performances were already elite.
Apart from anything, football at the highest level is entertainment and elite dribblers provide that. Furthermore it's a demonstration of skill. How memorable would many of the best ever be if not for their dribbling? Even players who did not score many goals like Iniesta and Zidane.You can’t just reference a single player that didn’t live up to his billing as proof of your dodgy notions Cal. I suppose Stanley Matthews was a nothing player then was he? Shall we call him the ‘wizard of feck all’ instead? What a charlatan.
I’m sure Mane Garrincha, George Best, Ryan Giggs, Jimmy Johnstone, Diego Maradona, Roberto Rivellino, Luis Figo, Pierre Littbarski and Jairzinho were all similarly useless, right?
Re Messi, he just had his best ever international tournament at the age of 34. I’m sure he’ll keep going at a high level for a few years yet. Don’t let this prospect scare you too much
@Cal? You have been using the same arguments since this thread started 6 years ago. You aren't going to change anyone's mind now considering you haven't managed to in 6 years.
It's admirable that you are still going strong, but I think you need to just let it go mate
It's admirable that you are still going strong, but I think you need to just let it go mate
Aside from being entertaining and aesthetically pleasing, it serves many practical purposes (pulling defenders out of position, disrupting formations, making space for teammates etc etc). Saying it doesn’t matter is just silly, with all due respect to Mr Cal.
Especially since Messi is the best in the business at creating chances, scoring goals and providing assists with his dribbling.
I think it’s more to do with the general consensus. Traditionally speaking these motm awards or even player of the month awards, no one really cares. While people do always glorify trophy winner, goalscorer, and the yearly individual awards and such. Its nothing to do with Messi vs Ronaldo, just the way it has always been in football.This sounds like that hilarious time when Ronaldo said that the golden boot was worth more than the Ballon D’Or because the Ballon D’Or was based on arbitrary opinion. And then Messi ended up with more of both
Anyway, goals and assists are ‘hard data’ but they don’t actually prove anything. Unless of course you think that Lewa and Benzema are the 3rd and 4th best players of the past 30 years……
Think I never asked but out of curiosity, have you ever played football yourself or are you 'just' a fan?
He probably wasn't good at dribbling
When did I say anything about nothing players or useless players?You can’t just reference a single player that didn’t live up to his billing as proof of your dodgy notions Cal. I suppose Stanley Matthews was a nothing player then was he? Shall we call him the ‘wizard of feck all’ instead? What a charlatan.
I’m sure Mane Garrincha, George Best, Ryan Giggs, Jimmy Johnstone, Diego Maradona, Roberto Rivellino, Luis Figo, Pierre Littbarski and Jairzinho were all similarly useless, right?
Re Messi, he just had his best ever international tournament at the age of 34. I’m sure he’ll keep going at a high level for a few years yet. Don’t let this prospect scare you too much
Do try not to invent thing I didn't say.
I can't believe you're trying to debate that most players are nearing retirement at mid-30s, do you really want to compare the number of players who have retired by 36 and those who haven't?
Best ever international tournament?
How about the fact that he joined by far the best team in a farmer league and has yet to score in said league?
Shocking that players occasionally get injured, every player gets injuries some times, so?
The fact is Ronaldo got more votes each of those years.
Football at the highest level is about results, how memorable would many of the best ever be if not for the trophies they won?
Even this rigged vote is getting closer and closer, so some minds have been changed.@Cal? You have been using the same arguments since this thread started 6 years ago. You aren't going to change anyone's mind now considering you haven't managed to in 6 years.
It's admirable that you are still going strong, but I think you need to just let it go mate
Anyway, it's just a way of passing time with the idiotic government blocking international travel.
I've already explained that point, dribbling that leads to something is not pointless, dribbling itself as a stats is utterly pointless if it doesn't lead anywhere.
No, Messi had real problems with fitness in his early years.
Teams win trophies. Great players (and indeed great dribblers) are remembered whether they win or not.
It's close in a United forum (where Cristiano is a legend) btw.Even this rigged vote is getting closer and closer, so some minds have been changed.
Anyway, it's just a way of passing time with the idiotic government blocking international travel.
Imagine the same poll in a from from a team that isn't Real Madrid or United.
You said dribbling means ‘feck all’ unless it results in a goal. That is an asinine statement, with all due etc.When did I say anything about nothing players or useless players?
Do try not to invent thing I didn't say.
Why would I do that? We’re talking about Messi and Ronaldo.
Yeah you know. The one where Argentina were champions and he was the best player with the most goals and most assists. Has never happened in the history of international football. Surely you can’t have forgotten already?Best ever international tournament?
Cal: “YEAH, HOW ABOUT IT?!?!”
The facts:
https://freeimage.host/i/5A5WQt
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