I believe Madrid would have the league wrapped up by December for the next 5 years, and they'd won CL at least for another 3 years in a row.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
- Thread starter Rado_N
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
- Status
It'd cross my mind if I was him tbh!
Funny thing is, the only time Argentina has beaten Chile in a competitive tournament the past 3 years was without Messi because he was injured I believe. The group stage game Argentina won 2-1 if I recall correctly with Di Maria scoring the winner. Chile ended up winning the final on penalty's when Messi was fit again and started.
What I saying your argument can be used against you and at the moment Ronaldo has the better international career and possibly the better club career considering he's won a CL with two teams in separate leagues.
hmmmm, that is not my argument. I actually keep saying that one odd game doesn't change the general picture for me. loss or win, Messi or Ronaldo. my argument is longer period in Argentina's case, not one or two games. we know for fact that they simply struggle in majority of games without Messi and now they are fifth in their qualifications. that's their reality and one odd win without their best player won't change that, in the same way as Portugal most likely won't beat France again without Ronaldo.
they barely qualified under Maradona, too. they did manage to end as the best team on their continent when Brazil was hosting world cup, though, so they didn't have to play them. the point is, I can't recall a single club/nation that constantly keep sucking at every tournament but are still being called the tier 1 in terms of strength. Messi elevates them there, if anything. without him, I think they're on current Holland level, comfortably below Germany and France.
obviously, on paper, they should cope much better in future than Portugal.
I agree, but to me this adds to Messi's relevance at NT level, since the recent achievements are all grouped together as he has become the heart of the team. (3 consecutive finals and no.1 ranking spot for several months, twice)
The point I was making chaps is that whilst Argentina probably are considered higher than Portugal, in global terms, it doesn't matter. Argentina are "amongst the favourites" in the same way that Holland are as well. Also, I think people talk down Portugal a tad, they've produced a lot of quality players. At NT level, it's much harder to rack up trophies for even great teams/players due to the simple fact of less chances. To me, Spain were an absolute top level team when they won the WC and consecutive Euros, they had a squad packed with quality all over the park AND they managed to live up to that with actual results.
Tier 2 to me means below the absolute 2-3 best outfits around. Every WC, people list all the great forwards Argentina have, but most people can barely list 3 defenders without looking it up. It's only their history that puts them in a favourite position, not the actual facts. But it's obvious that it's a history that weighs down on them as a nation, as they look across at Brazil who managed to hoover up trophies over the same period despite sometimes not actually appearing all that great on paper, but they had solid teams, they were well drilled with coaches who were getting the right stuff out of the squad as the trophies show.
The overall point is, it's not 100% accurate to say either Messi or Ronaldo have had subpar NT careers as they are both top scorers for teams that have struggled to reach the heights others have over their careers.
Aside from the 2014 WC qualifiers, Argentina has always struggled to qualify for a WC with or without Messi in the past. Even in recent memory, Argentina lost 3-0 to Brazil in the qualifiers. I'm not saying Messi sucks for Argentina or he doesn't contribute, but he definitely isn't a difference maker and certainly doesn't elevate any of the players around him. I mean in a squad with world class talent like Aguero, Higuain, Di Maria, and Messi for them not to gel at all is crazy considering they've played for almost a decade in the Olympic squad that won in 2008. I'm not trying to take sides here because Messi and Ronaldo are my two favorite players and it's been a pleasure growing up watching them both, but I've watched Argentina play long enough to know that Messi is not much of a difference maker on the team and certainly didn't lead them to the WC final in 2014 he merely performed better than most of the attacking players, but the real heroes of the team were the defense and Mascherano who played his ass off that tournament.
if he isn't, who is? according to stats, they have 14% win percentage so far without him, with only 1 win in 7 games. when he plays, they win 83% of their games. what changes other than him being in the team?
wow! Although i'm not one of those guys who takes sides because i think they're both good footballers. While Messi is a beautiful fooballer with his quick wit and the team playing for him, Ronaldo is more of a playing who brings the team together and gets the job done. They both have strengths and weaknesses but i love watching them both play and i also think we all should so that.
8 min Payet puts in a strong challenge on Ronaldo near the halfway line, taking man and ball. Ronaldo looks in quite a lot of pain and is being treated, and booed.
10 min That’s a fine save from Rui Patricio! Pepe slipped over and gave the ball to Payet on the left wing. He played a delicious angled pass over the defence to find Griezmann, who improvised a first-time lobbed header from just inside the box. It was a brilliant effort, and would have looped in but for a crucial leaping save from Rui Patricio. From the resulting corner he made a more comfortable save from Giroud’s header.
12 min Portugal are being battered at the moment. They just need to keep this at 0-0 for as long as possible, 120 minutes ideally.
15 min France are harassing and bullying Portugal in possession, and it’s almost painfully one-sided at the moment.
20 min Portugal are playing with 10 men for now, and having their best spell of possession in the match.
22 min The stop-start nature of Ronaldo injury unwittingly stalled France’s momentum, but they are back on top now. Sissoko goes on a storming run through the centre of the pitch before hitting a fierce left-footed shot that is deflected just over the bar.
It never crossed your mind that in the 17 minutes Portugal played with 10 men he did more harm than good?. And that the team played better when he left because they were 11vs11 again, and not some Anime comeback thing?
Because they had joke managers for a decade, remember Maradona? And the midfield isn't too hot either, look at what they were fielding in 2014WC.
There's plenty of squads oozing with talent like Argentina that end up doing nothing, 2006 England had Rio, Rooney, Lampard, Becks, Terry, Carrick, Ashley and Joe Cole, never went to a final. Same could be said of Portugal pre-2004 with Paulo Sousa, Figo, Rui Costa, Conceiçao, Pauleta or Nuno Gomes or Spain in 2002 with Casillas, Puyol, Hierro, Raul, Tristan, Valeron, Xavi and Joaquin among others.
All those players together didn't matter in a lot of international competitions for years, there's only one thing we know about Argentina, when Messi plays they reach 3 international finals in a row, when he doesn't they fail to qualify for the World Cup
Last edited:
Blaming the captain and star player of a country for trying to play through an injury on the biggest game of his country's history is ridiculous.
France started ok but they created nearly nothing when Cristiano was on the pitch other than a big feck up by Pepe that nearly led to Griezmann scoring. They had possession and they continued to have possession when Quaresma came in for Cristiano but they certainly weren't battering us like those comments suggest, Cristiano coming in 3 times and leaving 3 times wasted a lot of time and broke down the tempo of that first half where France had a few half chances but nothing major. The second half was chance after chance after chance to France, Portugal looked a lot worse than at the start of the game when Cristiano was on the pitch and the game shouldn't have even gone to extra time.
Besides Maradona back in 2010, every manager for Argentina has been a capable one so I don't know why you're insisting that it's been a tactical problem all these years. It's weird you mention managers like they don't try to accommodate the team to get the best out of Messi and build the team around him.
When has Argentina failed to qualify? They've made it to every WC I know of and you're forgetting with Messi Argentina got knocked out of the quarter final by Uruguay in the Copa America 2011 hosted in Argentina. Not to mention the 2010 WC, but for you that doesn't count I guess.
Also, why do you keep trying to discredit Ronaldo? He was a big part of Portugal success in 2016 Euro and has scored crucial goals to get Portugal to qualify for every major tournament since his international career started. Not to mention Portugal have a mediocre team far worse than the squad Messi gets to play for Argentina, for you to nitpick Argentina's midfield like it's something Messi is so unfortunate to have to deal with is ridiculous. Not every NT has prime Xavi and Iniesta in midfield. And from what I see Messi can't elevate a world class Higuain or Aguero to play to their standards, but Ronaldo inspired Eder of all people to score the winning goal in the final. Those words are from Eder too, he thanks Ronaldo for his performance and the half time talk he gave the team.
I'm not discrediting Ronaldo, he was the most important player for Portugal in that Euro, no Ronaldo? They're out in the group stage to fecking Hungary, Iceland and Austria! But I won't buy a story to point at how somehow Ronaldo, getting injured 8 minutes into the game, helped Portugal win the game, that's absurd, and if it was Messi I'd say the same, that's what irks me about the fanboying, you had your star help you get into the final, we could say he single-handedly put you there, why do you have to create some epic story about how he helped his team win when he barely played?
And why I say they failed to qualify? because that would be happening if it wasn't for Messi for the next world cup
15 of 18 points with Messi, 7 of 21 without him,
Messi era? kind of the same
Still, we have to read people say Messi doesn't make the difference with Argentina? yeah, sure
You have to hold on there, I was responding to people saying he didn't play in the final and acting like if he bottled up or something when he was present (for a short time) and couldn't finish due to an injury. It was not the final most people wanted for him but I do think his injury did had an impact in the mood at the time for both teams and even for people present in the stadium, it all became kind of depressed and people was being very empathetic towards him because of watching him trying to play. Honestly I thought they were gonna lose as I was wondering who would score for them and then it came that wonder goal.
Messi really should stop taking penalties. 
...and Ronaldo should definitely stop taking free kicks.Messi really should stop taking penalties.
That's actually quite true....and Ronaldo should definitely stop taking free kicks.
What's his conversion rate from penalties? Less than 75%?
For a player who can very easily side foot the ball into the corner running at full speed it's staggering he misses so many pens.
For a player who can very easily side foot the ball into the corner running at full speed it's staggering he misses so many pens.
Didn't they both score the same amount of goals from free kicks last year?...and Ronaldo should definitely stop taking free kicks.
Amen to that
WWE style, I like it.
I'm bored at work. Anyone feel like arguing about this?
Messi is better. Obviously.
Messi is better. Obviously.
Agree.
Messi needs Russia to end this debate like...forever.
And the maradona debate too.
Individually last year he was amazing. Hope he moves from BCN so he can really help the club getting rid of their management which is killing them. That would be a meaningful sacrifice.
And if that happens, hope it's to United but will most likely be City.
And the maradona debate too.
Individually last year he was amazing. Hope he moves from BCN so he can really help the club getting rid of their management which is killing them. That would be a meaningful sacrifice.
And if that happens, hope it's to United but will most likely be City.
I really don't think winning things with the national team should hold as much sway as some people think. In a career of 600+ games, you could lose a couple of semi-finals due to poor team mates, or a little bad luck, which seems to tarnish the reputation of a player, and the ability said player has shown over their club career.
One freakishly lucky Euros for Ronaldo adds nothing to the debate against Messi in my judgement.
In fact Messi's been better in both Copa Americas than Ronaldo's in the Euros.
He's been the best in Argentina by FAR.
Of course for me there's no debate between Messi and any player from today's era. But Russia would end every discussion there is.
Ronaldo can say that he's been able to compete against Messi and make a discussion possible. And that's a great, great accomplishment.
He's been the best in Argentina by FAR.
Of course for me there's no debate between Messi and any player from today's era. But Russia would end every discussion there is.
Ronaldo can say that he's been able to compete against Messi and make a discussion possible. And that's a great, great accomplishment.
It doesn't come down to international medal count. Forlan didn't win the 2010 World Cup, but his performances were fantastic and befitting of such a stage.
I would love for Messi and Ronaldo to dominate an international competition from start to finish. Leave every field with a MOM award. Drive their team against the odds. The same way they perform at club level.
I would love for Messi and Ronaldo to dominate an international competition from start to finish. Leave every field with a MOM award. Drive their team against the odds. The same way they perform at club level.
That's just not true and it's not even close. Cristiano is the highest goalscorer in Euros history while playing for Portugal! Euro 2012 was the best tournament by either of them, he was very good in 2004 and had positive tournaments in 2008 and 2016 with a bunch of crucial goals. Playing the Euros with Portugal is a completely different thing to playing a Copa America with Argentina, especially when Messi had the bonus of having 2 Copa Americas in 2 years in a period of Brazil being crap.
World Cup is a different story and I'd say Messi has performed better than Cristiano there. Messi will go into Russia surrounded by world class players playing for the top teams in the World managed by a great manager. Cristiano will go with Portugal if Portugal even get there so it certainly won't be 5 or 6 games in their careers in such different circumstances that will end any debate.
It will be the same as always with Argentina, it doesn't matter if they have 20 world class forwards, at best only 3 can play with Messi and that would be almost suicidal with their defensive level.
Their best assets from the goal til Messi would be Romero (sub at Utd) or Rulli if he finally breaks through in the NT, Mascherano (34, sub at Barcelona) and Otamendi (loved in the caf for some bad performances at City), Paredes (Zenit) Banega (didn't cut it at Inter) and Pastore (not a starter in PSG)
Either they strike gold with a Dybala-Icardi-Messi formation or is going to be the same team that has been sucking in the WC qualifiers
5 years ago it isn't even up for debate. Now, opinions aside, they are pretty much equal.
I think Sampaoli will figure it out. I also don't think Argentina players that are not forwards are as bad as people say. Romero is good enough, their CBs are very good and they have a lot of options (otamendi, Rojo, Garay, Fazio...), they lack quality fullbacks but they have guys with experience that are solid enough. Midfield is their biggest problem but even guys like Battaglia or Acuña are doing very well at Sporting so far and we're a team that has plenty of players in the portuguese national team. Mascherano, Biglia, Banega, Pastore, etc. with Sampaoli organizing it can form a functional midfield and I'm saying this while comparing it to Portugal because Argentina are obviously lacking when compared to the 2 or 3 best national teams in the World.
You say Banega didn't cut it at Inter but he actually took João Mário's place who is a starter for Portugal. The argentine Battaglia is replacing portuguese starter William Carvalho very well. André Gomes you know enough about. Sanches has turned to shit. Adrien has declined. Pepe will be 35 by then. Raphael Guerreiro spends more time injured than fit. Ruben Semedo is our third best CB, our starter José Fonte can't even start for a terrible West Ham anymore and André Silva is already on Milan's bench. It's pretty obvious we'll be shit at the World Cup if we get there and I already see the blame falling to a 33 year old Cristiano for not being able to carry the team on his own. That's why I'm saying the World Cup won't decide any debate, if Messi has a great World Cup it will still obviously be a major point in his advantage and I actually want him to do it because Argentina need some happiness after the last 3 finals. But to me it's pretty obvious Argentina will do better than Portugal in Russia and that Messi has a better platform around him for him to shine.
Last edited:
I regard people who think Ronaldo is better than Messi the same way I regard people who say 'epic' in conversation or read Harry Potter books as adults.
Yeah, Argentina isn't hopeless, but I was talking about what they lack to be a serious contender to the WC title against Germany, Brazil, Italy, France or even Spain/England, not just getting into the final by being lucky with the draws and Messi, Higuain or another star scoring clutch goals.
Portugal... let's say I'm not a big fan of your players, as you say they lack the quaility to rival even Argentina and I consider the Euro even a bigger fluke than Greece in 2004 (maybe the universe wanted to balance your karma). But still if Messi wins the WC it would settle the debate for most people, doesn't matter if its unfair, because that's what happened when Portugal won the Euro too, with Ronaldo leading them to the final but being unable to play there, somehow his team winning a final without him trumped Messi playing 3 consecutive finals and losing them, never looked "fair" to me.
People might turn on Ronaldo if Portugal disappoint in Rusia, but thankfully he now has that Euro to remind those people how he was the key part of an international title, would never be his fault unless somehow the other 10 players in the team perform better than him and he just keeps bottling chance after chance, and everyone knows that's not going to happen
Yeah, it's a testament to Ronaldo considering many thought the gap would get bigger considering he would be more affected by physical decline than Messi. Also yet another proof that predictions are often wrong.
Not to be rude or anything but why are the people who think Messi is better so patronising? You'd think you were comparing Messi with any run of the mill player.
Actually, I agree with that then. Ronaldo had the minimum influence in the Euro final because of his unfortunate injury, but that shouldn't take away the fact that he deserves that trophy just as much as anyone else in that team who contributed to Portugal's success. Some people do believe this isn't the case, unfortunately.
As for Messi's stats in Argentina's WC qualifiers, having watched almost all of Argentina's qualifying matches even with Messi the team doesn't improve much if at all. Results wise, that might not be the case, but they barely win games and get by on goals from corners or deflections for the most part not through outplaying anybody even with Messi in the line up. Like the 1-0 victory over Uruguay with a deflected long range goal from Messi. Other the goal the match was a stalemate. Argentina then went on to get thrashed by Brazil in a 3-0 loss.
I think Ronnie is a wonderful player. He just continues to produce, time and time again. An absolute machine and freak of nature. But for me it's Messi. Messi outperformed Ronaldo last season again but it seems to have been glossed over because Real are winning everything.
Messi is winning games on his own for Barca at the moment. It's actually staggering to think the same player is arguably the best finisher, best dribbler and best passer in the world at the same time. He's just incredibly rounded and complete. He can probably play forever even when his pace is long gone due to the way he sees the game and can pass the ball. He's scored a couple this season and hit the woodwork about 4 times also. Playing from midfield. It's hugely impressive.
Messi is winning games on his own for Barca at the moment. It's actually staggering to think the same player is arguably the best finisher, best dribbler and best passer in the world at the same time. He's just incredibly rounded and complete. He can probably play forever even when his pace is long gone due to the way he sees the game and can pass the ball. He's scored a couple this season and hit the woodwork about 4 times also. Playing from midfield. It's hugely impressive.
I don't think it's Messi in particular but rather what Messi represents, i.e a contender for the greatest player who has ever lived. (along with Maradona and Pele)
Whilst I'd put Ronaldo in the top 10, I do get genuinely shocked when a minority say he's the best ever or such like. He gets into the top 10 primarily because of his phenomenal goal scoring ability but he just doesn't have the skill set that you need to have to trouble the top 3.
I actually agree with your point of view in that I think Messi's better. He's just capable of certain things that Ronaldo isn't imo. I just think it's very dismissive to act as if that's the only valid opinion on the matter. Those who prefer Ronaldo, such as @Peyroteo certainly present a solid case for Ronaldo which imo shouldn't be dismissed.
Of course, I'm just giving my opinion and it's something solid for me. I've discussed with Peyroteo but we never really understand each other. I respect him but it's losing my time with something that won't be understood, and it happens the same to him towards me for sure.
I respect Ronaldo a lot, and I can understand those who prefer him or say he's better than X player, but my opinion is clear on this matter.
I respect Ronaldo a lot, and I can understand those who prefer him or say he's better than X player, but my opinion is clear on this matter.
- Status