In terms of talent Argentina are always considered among the best teams, although it might not be the most cohesive or balanced team if you compare it to the likes of Spain or Germany I do think they're better than most teams, at least better than Portugal. When Messi retires I'm sure they would remain competitive and I'm not so sure about what would happen to Portugal once Ronaldo retires.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Are they not struggling to even qualify for the World Cup, since Messi is unavailable? Hardly speaks of a top team. Let's be honest, they're a joke of a team. They're a squad of top players, rather than a team.
Didn't they struggle to qualify even with Messi?
Brazil beat them 3-0 with Messi in team iirc
Which would just further prove my point. They're terribly managed as a unit. No cohesion, no fludity, shite management. I've been excited to watch Argentina almost every international tournament and every tournament I'm disappointed.
Also Brazil are going to be the team to beat imo. That's an example of the difference some proper management can do for a team.
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based on what? you've seen how bad they are without him, you've seen their position, you've seen that they literally can't score when Messi doesn't play (Venezuela as the worst team there scored more). who are those players that will make Argentina competitive? who are those managers? where did you see them? what are their names? genuine question.
He's very good for them but if they fail to have good performances without him I would blame on bad management of their squad as they have plenty of players in the best leagues and best teams in the world and I think they're gonna still producing players like this. Right now it doesn't look good as they have many forward players but I'm sure they will be deemed as favorites even without Messi with the likes of Icardi and Dybala, and hopefully Cholo Simeone being their coach in the future.
Portugal situation I think is more dire in terms of talent as they no longer have players like Figo, Rui Costa, Deco, etc, although they seem to play more as a team. So you might be right about Argentina being overhyped and depending too much on Messi but would still be mad about the management of the team if I was an Argentinian.
They have players performing well at top clubs in pretty much every position. Dybala, Icardi, Higuain, Di Maria, Pastore, Rojo, Romero, Otamendi, Aguero, Perotti, Biglia, Paredes, Correa, Lanzini... not only do they have great options, they have a lot of them. Their attacking options are absolutely ridiculous especially when you compare it to the portuguese team who have been stuck with Hélder Postiga, Hugo Almeida and Éder for strikers for the past 10 years.
Argentina were lacking a good manager but now it seems like they've solved that problem. They'll easily make it to the World Cup too judging by the games they have left. Portugal are struggling more than them to qualify.
that has always been the case. it obviously doesn't mean much without good management, otherwise they wouldn't be struggling so much. I think I've already had a simillar discussion about that on here, so there's nothing more left to add on that. we just have to wait and see how good they'll become under Sampaoli. we can't just assume they are suddenly great because Chille were great too under him.
If you take a look at all time goalscorer tables you might notice the large number of recent player, which is cause there are more NT games played than back in the days.Aren't Messi and Ronaldo both their respective nations' all time top scorers at international level? You can nitpick all day, and I'm sure we all will, but it's hardly "lacklustre" IMO.
Messi and Ronaldo are arguably the two greatest club players ever.
Where would they rank on a list based on just Euro/Copa and WC performances?
I know fans are capable of impressive self deception after writing paragraphs of reasons/excuses, but deep down you all know the answer.
If you compare their respective ranks not idea how you'd think that's anything else than underwhelming.
Also there are plenty of examples that show playing for a tier 2 nation (Argentina deserving that label is highly debatable) is not an excuse for performance. Forlan or James in the last two WCs come to mind.
I'm not talking about team results or winning trophies.
no idea what the point of your rant is and how you managed to talk about England....
EDIT: that was sarcasm btw.
To me it's simple. Without Messi, Argentina is still a power house but without Ronaldo, Portugal is tier 2 at best. Ronaldo beats Messi internationally quite clearly (so far..)
Just put the two sides down on paper and you see what a difference it is. Notable names excluding the two big big guns:
Icardi - Inter
Dybala - Juventus
Higuain - Juventus
Mascherano - Barcelona
Aguero - Citeh
Otamendi - Citeh
Di Maria - PSG
Pastore - PSG
or....
Pepe - Beşiktaş
Fonte - West Ham
Gomes - Barcelona
Mário - Inter
Carvalho - Sporting
Silva - Citeh
Nani - Valencia
Quaresma - Beşiktaş
Are you kidding? We have bebe....i think we have a few young players coming up but the problem is the striker situation
Then go and check this WCQ, and see how many points argentina has with and without Messi.
You think real football is like FIFA or something...
It wasn't really a rant, it was just pointing out that England has 53 million people and is usually considered one of the better footballing nations who just haven't lived up to expectations. Portugal on the other hand has less than 1/5 of the population (similar to the urban area of Greater London) yet during Ronaldo's time playing for his country they have a marginally better record progressing to the final stages of major tournaments - WC/EC (1 win, 1 RU, 2SF) vs England's all-time efforts (1 win, 3SF). I just thought that was impressive to be honest, especially since pre-Ronaldo Portugal were average at best only actually qualifying for 6 out of 27 tournaments.
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Agree with that. It's only poor in comparison to most of the other greatest players of all time, but it's a decent international career by everyone else's standards. I think you're slightly over-rating his 2006 campaign. In the mix for a spot in a team of the tournament, but not quite performing at the rarefied levels reached by Cannavaro, Zidane and Pirlo IMO. That said he did well in 2004 and 2006, but one decent tournament between 2006 and 2016 is pretty poor going for a man of his ability.
They had good international careers without any doubt (example, look at how Ronaldo will likely end up being the best european international scorer of all time).
I think both suffered however from their national teams not being fully functional.
Argentina has been in the 10-20 years very poor in term of team tactics and integration. They have had one of the best attacks in the world all this time (even without Messi) but they are hurt by the meh defense (more recently) and the lack of actual team organisation. They sort of had a good organisation in the WC 2014 and they did well.
Portugal's problems are the reverse, they are generally a solid defensive side but they really suffer from lack of quality in some positions, specially as a striker.
You cannot hope Ronaldo solves everything playing with Hugo Almeida/Postiga, a burning Nani and no #10 at all (after Deco declined) and hope to match quality teams every single time.
He suffered a lot in the Carlos Queiroz era (which includes the 2010 WC) because he had no support in attack whatsoever, just look at his numbers in this time, he basically didn't score.
When Paulo Bento started to use Postiga his numbers improved massively as Postiga actually has technique, passing and movement intelligence to help him, despite being average overall.
Also notice how the portuguese team constrains forced almost all the managers to play defensive against decent sides, Portugal isn't all out offensive for many, many years now, which doesn't help Ronaldo too.
I think both suffered however from their national teams not being fully functional.
Argentina has been in the 10-20 years very poor in term of team tactics and integration. They have had one of the best attacks in the world all this time (even without Messi) but they are hurt by the meh defense (more recently) and the lack of actual team organisation. They sort of had a good organisation in the WC 2014 and they did well.
Portugal's problems are the reverse, they are generally a solid defensive side but they really suffer from lack of quality in some positions, specially as a striker.
You cannot hope Ronaldo solves everything playing with Hugo Almeida/Postiga, a burning Nani and no #10 at all (after Deco declined) and hope to match quality teams every single time.
He suffered a lot in the Carlos Queiroz era (which includes the 2010 WC) because he had no support in attack whatsoever, just look at his numbers in this time, he basically didn't score.
When Paulo Bento started to use Postiga his numbers improved massively as Postiga actually has technique, passing and movement intelligence to help him, despite being average overall.
Also notice how the portuguese team constrains forced almost all the managers to play defensive against decent sides, Portugal isn't all out offensive for many, many years now, which doesn't help Ronaldo too.
Ronaldo by some margin... I would also put him marginally ahead at club level... he is my GOAT
You feel this WC is both of their last chances at the big one.
You feel this WC is both of their last chances at the big one.
Welcome aboard @Camara! This place has too many lizards and not enough dragons
And I do agree CR has had more impact on International level than Messi. The main thing that was missing in them from the greats of the past like Maradona, Zidane, Ronaldo, Pele, etc, was the ability to take true responsibility for what they represent to each of their nation. So far, only Ronaldo seemed to accomplish it in the last few years. While Messi still doesn't fit the profile of a leader. Argentina expects him to carry everything on his shoulders but his personality couldn't be more different than what they expect. He will never be like Maradona, forget it. He is Messi and he likes to be on his own without too much hassle. Hence he never left Barcelona, only had one woman and always looks down when walking.
And I do agree CR has had more impact on International level than Messi. The main thing that was missing in them from the greats of the past like Maradona, Zidane, Ronaldo, Pele, etc, was the ability to take true responsibility for what they represent to each of their nation. So far, only Ronaldo seemed to accomplish it in the last few years. While Messi still doesn't fit the profile of a leader. Argentina expects him to carry everything on his shoulders but his personality couldn't be more different than what they expect. He will never be like Maradona, forget it. He is Messi and he likes to be on his own without too much hassle. Hence he never left Barcelona, only had one woman and always looks down when walking.
I don't think it is though. He may not have had as many achievements but surely playing in a much worse team has to be taken into account. Put Cruyff, Muller or Ronaldo Lima in this portuguese team and Cristiano in that dutch, german or brazilian team and I'm pretty sure their international careers would be judged completely differently. It's similar for Messi too who has had to play in a disfunctional team.
Thank God lampiões haven't discovered the internet yetWelcome aboard @Camara! This place has too many lizards and not enough dragons
Is that supposed to be some sort of insult? Messi is a clear loser to Ronaldo on the international scene.
You do realise Portugal just won the Euros without Ronaldo?
How strange of you forgetting some players from portugal
Semedo - Barcelona
Renato Sanches - Bayern
Someone would think you're trying to push some kind of narrative leaving those players behind and pushing Pastore and Icardi into Argentina NT because they look good, Pastore hasn't played a game with Argentina in two years and Icardi just got called after a 4 year absence and only played one game with Argentina
He was an integral part of the whole tournament.
And yet they won the game against toughest side they faced without him, and they had games against weaker opponents where they struggled even with him in the team. Basically, your argument doesn't stand.
What nonsense are you talking about? Argentina has always been powerhouse with many best players throughout each generation over past 20-30 years. Yes they haven't been winning a lot of trophies, but they are always one of the favourites in every WC I've watched since 86.Aren't Messi and Ronaldo both their respective nations' all time top scorers at international level? You can nitpick all day, and I'm sure we all will
You do realize that there is a good chance Portugal wouldn't have even qualified for the tournament itself without him since he scored the only goal in two 1-0 wins and also got a hat trick in a 3-2 win in the qualifying rounds. He's played in 7 major tournaments for Portugal and they've qualified for the finals every time. Pre-Ronaldo it was 6/27. Without him in 2016 it would more than likely been another finals they'd have watched from home.
Ronaldo was the second best scorer of the tournament with 3 goals and 3 assists.
He was involved in 6 of the 9 goals of Portugal in the tournament (67%).
He didn't win it alone obviously but he was hardly a sideline.
And so far in this qualification our only game without him we lost 2-0 whilst winning 5 games out of 5 with him and scoring 22 goals in those 5 games. Now your argument doesn't stand. Or maybe we shouldn't get to conclusions off one abnormal game where France completely dominated, missed a load of chances, hit the post in 90th minute, Portugal had Rui Patricio turn into Yashin in his prime and fecking Éder scoring from 30 meters away because that will simply never happen again.
Argentina have a bigger talent pool than Portugal, that much is obvious. They have a bunch of players shining at the top clubs in the world whilst Portugal only has one player doing well at a top club and that's Cristiano. Argentina's main problem was their manager but they've now finally got someone who knows what they're doing. I don't see what's so controversial about saying Portugal will suffer more when Cristiano retires than Argentina when Messi does.
You didn't watch the games or just don't rate Ronaldo. Even if he didn't play better than stinking up his team missing penalties and then crying
the national stage required more than just skill on the ball. Messi doesn't have the leadership or determination at that level to compete with RonaldoI don't really care what happens with Ronaldo in the side, I just gave one good example that he Portual isn't really one man team like shamans tried to portray it.
nothing, it's just a flawed argument, even though I actually agree with statement itself.
we have Portugal beating France on their own ground without Ronaldo, which for you, is a freak result (and I agree). they you mention your one single game which you've lost without Ronaldo, against Switzerland, as true reflection of your (Portugal NT) quality. but you don't accept all those games in which Argentina struggle without Messi as true reflection of their strength - for you, they are perfectly fine without him, even though results clearly suggests otherwise.
this isn't FIFA or FM. yes, they have Pastore, Aguero and Di Maria, but they obviously do nothing against Paraguay, Brazil, Bolivia etc. who cares how they play against Watford or Nantes when they obviously can't replicate the same form for their NT? football isn't played on paper.
What I'm saying is that they're underperforming not because of the lack of quality of those players but because of bad coaching. Bauza had no idea what he was doing and that was leading those players to not play at their full capabilities. They've now changed to Sampaoli whom I rate very highly and I expect them to improve a lot. If Messi left now, they'd put Dybala in this place and with Sampaoli in charge I think they'd be fine but if Portugal lose Cristiano I don't think we'd even be making it to Russia.
Messi will come back stronger than ever, like he did in 2015. you just wait and see.
To be fair Ronaldo did play in that game against France, it wasn't the whole match but his injury did help to cut the pressure France was applying to Portugal. France was stepping all over Portugal as soon as the game started and it looked like a matter of time for them to score, then when Ronaldo tried to slow down the game he got injured and by stopping the game France lost their momentum. It wasn't intentional but I think hadn't he played (and getting injured) France would have scored a goal or two within the first half hour and it would had been almost impossible for Portugal to comeback, also after the injury the team got more motivated and started to play better and make the game to be a lot more even.
Wouldn't it be awesome if Messi just throws the towel in at Barcelona and is like 'feck it' - joins RMadrid (and CR7) for one last shock and they savage world football together!
It would be great as Barcelona would struggle for quite a while to rebuild the team without him but I think that would make the discussion about who is better even messier than it already is.
Ronaldo -- Messi
Isco
Kroos -- Casemiero -- Modric
Marcelo -- Ramos -- Varane -- Carvajal
de Gea
Isco
Kroos -- Casemiero -- Modric
Marcelo -- Ramos -- Varane -- Carvajal
de Gea
If that would be their team next year we should just hand them any trophy.
We should hand Madrid any trophy without messi.Ronaldo -- Messi
Isco
Kroos -- Casemiero -- Modric
Marcelo -- Ramos -- Varane -- Carvajal
de Gea
If that would be their team next year we should just hand them any trophy.
They will win 34 games minimum in the league, 18 points in the group stages and win every knockout tie home and away.
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