Yes, you are right here "No player does show all the time" specifically as it is a team sport. Anyway, Ronaldo is way mentally stronger than Messi IMO specifically in recent years, but also I think Messi is treated very harshly from an International point of view. Reaching 3 finals in a row and losing 2 penalty shootouts and one late in extra-time can also be referred to as some bad luck. Also, I think Barcelona's board screwed up Messi's best years after Guardiola. When you have the GOAT or at least one of the greatest players of all time, you should try your hardest to win as many trophies as possible during this time, not to hire Managers like Tito Villanova, Tata Martino, Luis Enrique and Ernesto Valverde!! "The guy wins us the league every year or at least he helps us challenging for it till the last GW, we are doing great" But to conquer Europe, you have to have a great team and a great squad, your midfield should not be still depending on an ageing Iniesta, a guy like Paulinho, with all due respect, should not be a starting player for a team like Barcelona. Yes, Messi sometimes had bad games as any other player, but he is playing for Barcelona, the team should be good enough to win or to even score a goal "Roma return leg and Sevilla before Messi was subbed on for example".He was great and scored vs Lyon in 2010, he scored 2 and assisted 1 against Bayern in 2012, got his penalty saved but that happens, in 2013 you mentioned the cup final as a negative while he was very good and scored Madrid’s goal, he played a big part in Benzema’s goal in 2014 against Bayern, then got injured and he shouldn’t have even be playing football during that end of the season, he was also injured in 2016 and didn’t even play in the first leg against City.
He doesn’t show up all the time because no player does and he’s also had his bad games in the big CL ties, he just does it less often than Messi.
Nice username btw
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Absolutely nothing is of course an exaggeration. But he doesn't do much for the standards he wants to be compared with and I stand by this. In the last CL season, Cristiano had 2.1 dribbles, 1.4 key passes, 0.1 crosses, 0.5 long balls and 31 total passes per game. In the year before that, it were 1.2 dribbles, 1.5 key passes, 0.5 crosses, 0.3 long balls and 32 total passes. These are good statistics for a striker but he wants to be more than that.
Messi in 2014/15 had 7.1 (!) dribbles, 2.8 key passes, 0.2 crosses, 2.2 long balls and 65 total passes per game.
When you compare Cristiano's CL 2016/17 with Messi's 2014/15 per 90 minutes on Squawka, Messi has thrice as many forward passes, twice as many total passes, almost twice as many created chance and key passes and almost seven times as many successful dribblings while Ronaldo beats him with 0.9 compared to 0.79 goals - a difference of 0.11 goals per 90 minutes.
These are lightyears. See, compared with him, Ronaldo is so, so far behind in this aspect of the game that I find it very hard to argue that he has had the best CL campaign ever. And it also relativizes the videos that you have posted. Especially the Napoli game was pretty good (still don't think he had a particularly great game against Bayern, though). But honestly, just because he scored his goals in the knockout stages doesn't make up for the differences in contribution, IMO.
Ronaldo is at least one of the best penalty takers I've ever seen, I was just mentioning the misses because there were lots of concentration on Messi's missed penalty vs Chile 2016 and no mentioning that he scored vs Chile in 2015, he scored vs Uruguay in Copa America 2011 and he actually has never missed a penalty in El Clasico for instance. Ronaldo of course is a better penalty taker, I do not think anyone can disagree with that, but Messi is not a bad penalty taker at all. Ronaldo is mentally stronger than Messi specially in the last 2 or 3 years, but that does not mean Messi is a bottler.
Regarding the Euros, I do not think Portugal were stalling their qualification to be that late in the match vs Hungary "the 62nd minute" thinking about the easiest route because they had to be ranked the 3rd or 4th from the best four teams that occupied 3rd places in their respective groups. Portugal will not settle for that when it is 3-3 and any loss will knock them out altogether, I think that is a very big risk.
What I was trying to state earlier is that Ronaldo was not conquering the CL every year as it seems to be the case since 2017 and was not conquering most of the big games his team needed him and even in 2014 and 2016 CLs, he was not their most decisive player in the big matches at all, Ramos was clearly the saviour in 2014 vs Bayern and in 2016, Real was not that good, I think they somehow fluked their way to winning it without an obvious decisive player IMO.
Again with the obsession of dribbling.
Forward passes, total passes?
Simply, Barca's style means most of their players play more passes anyway, but does that always mean they're better? Not at all.
The ultimate aim of football is to score goals, I don't think you can argue with that. So if Messi was contributing much more in 14/15 than Ronaldo in 16/17 as you suggested. Even if he didn't score the goals himself, his TEAM should be scoring lots of goals right?
Team - Group - L16 - QF - SF - F
Barca 14/15 - 15 - 3 - 5 - 5 - 3
Real 16/17 - 16 - 6 - 6 - 4 - 4
So basically Real have outscored Barca every stage of the competition.
You should stick with irrational arguments and laughing smileys, logic is definitely nothing you excel at.Again with the obsession of dribbling.
Forward passes, total passes?
Simply, Barca's style means most of their players play more passes anyway, but does that always mean they're better? Not at all.
The ultimate aim of football is to score goals, I don't think you can argue with that. So if Messi was contributing much more in 14/15 than Ronaldo in 16/17 as you suggested. Even if he didn't score the goals himself, his TEAM should be scoring lots of goals right?
Team - Group - L16 - QF - SF - F
Barca 14/15 - 15 - 3 - 5 - 5 - 3
Real 16/17 - 16 - 6 - 6 - 4 - 4
So basically Real have outscored Barca every stage of the competition.
Whilst Ronaldo does have that miss against Bayern that may have cost Real a final, Messi does seem to have quite a few penalty misses at key moments, the Chelsea games, Copa final, etc. Perhaps bottler is a little harsh, but I don't think it's wrong to question Messi's mental toughness. When was the last time you saw him drag his team across the finish line when they're struggling? He seems to be one who flourishes when his team plays well.
Portugal may not have TRIED to finish 3rd in the group, but that doesn't change the fact that the rules were there and everyone played by those rules. To say they'd be out in any other Euro is plain ridiculous. No one knows if they could have got a winner in that 3-3 games if they needed one.
If you analyze every game in a CL campaign, there are of course games where Ronaldo wasn't at his best, but he was still vital to Real in all 3 recent wins.
Out with the insults when you run out of things to say?
Do explain why Barca scored fewer goals than Real if Messi was doing so so much more than Ronaldo. Surely he's doing so much, that even if he doesn't score, the likes of Suarez and Neymar should be scoring?
Saying Messi in the 2014/15 CL scored 0.79 goals per game while Ronaldo in 2016/17 scored 0.90 goals per game does not in any way reflect the difference in goalscoring and you know that.
If you use the same WhoScored's stats and the same logic you'll end up concluding Neymar's is better than Messi too. He dribbles more, he creates more chances, he assists more, also has plenty of touches on the ball and this was true before he moved to Paris. If you don't really care much about goals why is Neymar not the best player in the world for you? This year he's even scoring more than Messi, so why is Neymar not the best in the world?
WhoScored's stats are very flawed, you only have to take a look at what they consider to be a dribble or a created chance. It's alright but very far from being perfect and there is a lot that the stats won't take into account.
You started comparing them but what I disagreed with was you saying Ronaldo offered nothing outside of the box which isn't true even today nevermind a few years ago, I wasn't talking about him dribbling or making more passes than Messi. Everyone already knows he doesn't.
This heat map is making the rounds and is legit this time:
Fake and embarrassing if you believe in that.
Wins four of the last five Ballon D’Ors and is ‘flavour of the month’
Even goalkeeper’s heatmaps look nothing like that. A heat map like that suggests he was running around like a madman in the oppositions box for 6 yard box for 90 minutes.
I was at that game, directly level with Sinclair as he smashed it in. The only time I've been to see a UK team other than Utd or England.
So with that in mind, I think it's clear to see that Messi is better than Ronaldo.
You're having a shocker! Even your earlier post with the Messi stats is so bad that I'm reminded when Leon Britton/Ben Arfa stats on passes//dribbles etc were being compared with Xavi/Messi stats. Obviously the comparison itself is nothing alike now (need I even say it!?), and I agree that Messi is the better playmaker obviously, but you're vastly overestimating the impact that these stats have on the quality of season someone is having. Messi scored only in one of the KO rounds matches that year. Obviously he still had excellent games, but it's very reaching to argue (through stats with questionable significance, as I pointed out) that his run may have been as good/better than Ronaldo's last year. Even more telling is that you use Messi's Ronaldo-like/clinical display against Chelsea this year as evidence!
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I’m 99% sure that it’s impossible to have red covering that sort of area unless they’re suggesting there is two or three of him on the field. If he’s covering that sort of area the colour will be reduced to orange or yellow.This heat map is making the rounds and is legit this time:
You mean the gloryfied UEFA Player of the Year award? The Ballon d'Or lost a truck load of meaning to me after the 2013 scandal. Ronaldo's now essentially blasting away chances in a 13 game tournament in one of the greatest Real Madrid sides since the late 50's. His success in the CL is waxed lyrical about, apparently it's all down to him, yet lack of league success completely glazed over... or is that down to his team mates at Real Madrid and nothing to do with him?
Wins four of the last five Ballon D’Ors and is ‘flavour of the month’
If anything he's proven himself to be the most dangerous footballer in the world over the last three seasons, mainly as he's adapted his game to a fully fledged centre-forward, but the best? Not a feckin chance. I think people in here are just saying that purely to wind others up... apart from Cal, it's worrying just how protective he is of him. Messi is a once in a lifetime footballer, anyone who tries to reduce him down to goals and assists can jog on.
Cue the next few posts repeating how great Ronaldo's statistics are and how high in the air he can jump, hopefully Bayern knock Real out of Europe so this thread can be put to bed for a couple months.
Errmmm, a few months ago in Quito? The second leg of the Chelsea tie? Do you wilfully ignore things?
overall I think it's a good post, but I would just like to add something on this part.
being more attractive and enjoyable to watch is directly related to player's overall technical ability, and Messi is almost untouchable in this regard. it's not just matter of aesthetics, it's the matter of skill. every goal counts as one and after the game is finished it doesn't matter how it was scored if the team gets the 3 points. however, it does matter when it comes to player's reputation and legacy. not only goals, but the overall ability on the ball. our admiration for certain goals/assists/moves is directly related to the level of technical ability required to pull them off. would you admire Ronaldo's goal vs Juve that much if you could see the same type of goal being scored every week by much lesser players? I know I wouldn't. just look how it affected this poll alone.
Messi isn't even the the best example of this, it's Brazilian Ronaldo. when you look at his career, the fact he won very few major trophies outside the international stage and the fact that he rarely managed to finish the season as a top scorer, you'd probably wonder why does he feature in those all time lists and why does some still rate his peak as superior to that of Cristiano. and the answer is simple - technical ability matters. it just does. otherwise you would have Henry, David Villa or other players with similar achievements being talked about like potential GOAT candidates.
just to be clear, I know you weren't trying to say that Messi is one of those players who does flashy things for the sake of it. but I think it's too simplistic to say that people prefer Messi just because he's more enjoyable to watch; him being more exciting and more enjoyable to watch has it's reason and is directly related to the first part of my post.
Last game against Real Madrid.
Yep, several examples. Both players perform when it matters, in recent years Ronaldo more so in the CL and Leo is more decisive in the league.
I will give you the one against Ecuador, that game against Chelsea you didn't even need to score, the fact you were comfortable because you scored early doesn't mean he "dragged" you over the line.
There we go again with the fat Ronaldo comparison.
The reason why a small minority bring him into these conversations all the time is because they rate him based on "what could have been" rather than "what was achieved".
It does though doesn't it?
At the end of the day you can expend energy running all around the pitch dribbling past everyone and creating chances all the time but the only thing that really matters in the end is goals. So the only two factors are assists and goals.
Messi in 2014/15 had 10 goals and 5 assists.
Ronaldo in 2016/17 had 12 goals and 6 assists.
Both won the CL.
By rights that means Ronaldo had a better tournament. Especially if you factor in that 6 of Messi's 10 goals were against Ajax and APOEL in the group stage. Ronaldo came alive in the knockout rounds last season.
That's so easy to answer to be honest...Internationally scoring a hat-trick vs Ecuador away while they were losing 1-0 and about to miss the World Cup. Actually Argentina played 18 games in World Cup Qualifications, 8 games without Messi and 10 with Messi. In the 8 games, they won 1 game only...yes, I am not exaggerating, they got 7 points out of a possible 24 points by winning 1 game, drawing 4 games and losing 3 games. However, with Messi playing, they got 21 points out of a possible 30 points and the difference is obvious. If Argentina is still a world class team, please explain to me how on earth a world class team can only get 7 points out of 24 points and need a hat-trick while losing at the last match from a not so tough mentally player to qualify?? With Barcelona, almost every La Liga game this season, most recently when they were being humiliated 2-0 by Sevilla and he came on and equalized at the last minute. Before that, he scored the winner in the title decider vs Atletico Madrid, he scored and assisted vs Madrid to end any hope they had of competing for La Liga. Even last year, when Madrid literally had 2 strong teams, he scored twice and one of them is a last minute winner away at the Santiago Bernabeu to claim victory for Barcelona "without Neymar as well". IMO and I think no one can deny that even Madrid fans, Messi is the greatest player La Liga has ever seen by quite a margin.
Regarding Portugal, it is a fair point the one you mentioned, however, I still think that Portugal were lucky that by finishing 3rd in their group which indicates they did not have a great group stage at all, it was the first time in Euro history to qualify from that position and also all the results worked for them so that all the giants were on the other side of the draw.
Well they were comfortable because of a goal from a certain Messi in the first.
Yes you can say, it was poor defending from Chelsea, and so on, but Messi did scored a crucial goal when the team was not exactly performing well.
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That is why goals can be a dangerous stat, and comparing player solely on it can be shady at times.
Messi literary destroyed both Manchester City and Juve, and by miles the best player in the pitch, but he didn't scored. And those performances were in no way inferior to any performance Cristiano gave last season, 2016, 2014 or 2008.
Yes Messi is more enjoyable to watch because he does more things on the pitch which is more admirable (dribbling, playmaking, skills etc) and hence he will always gain more favorable opinions. But in terms of competitiveness, only winning, impact on winning, and effectiveness on winning games matter. In this respect Messi and Ronaldo are more or less equal. In terms of legacy, it’s complicated. For example, George Best hasn’t won a lot in his career, but he was still highly rated by many as one of the greatest, mostly due to his skills and footballing. Di Stefano, on the other hand, probably wasn’t as skillful as George Best, nonetheless gain a lot of GOAT reputation for his domination in Europe.
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Let's say I provide you with a brillant pass that sets you up against the goal keeper in a one on one. In the first scenario you bottle it. In the second scenario, you score. In the third scenario, you pass it further to a team mate who then shoots it into the open goal.
The pass is exactly the same throughout all scenarios, only your performance differs. In the first I get nothing, in the second an assist, in the third a preassist.
Is my pass in the second scenario any better than in the first? Of course not, it's the exact same pass. So why is it important if the play lead to an actual goal when evaluating the performance of the individual who provided the pass? After the ball left his foot it is out of his influence.
And why is a goal principally more important than an assist/chance creation? I mean, we all know goals where the assist or preassist was better than the final conversion (e.g. Berbatov's famous assist for Ronaldo or Ronaldinho for Giuly against Milan). Football isn't that simple.
Can't it be argued that you are a fanboy?
Hate to break it to you but only you and the Barca/Messi fanboys are in denial and totally biased. Everyone else in the world knows Ronaldo is and has been the best player in the world for a number of years now.
>Cristiano was the best player in the world
> Messi came to the scene and overtook him
> Ronaldo then overtook him, has reclaimed that title and still holds it
...Ronaldo is the best goal scorer of all time and the best big game player in the world today...Messi is the most talented player of all time...more skill/talent ≠ better/best player.
Again, if you fail to realize that which is common knowledge across the world, YOU are the one in denial with bias
Also there is nothing wrong with thinking Messi is better.
I don't think you've watched him play that often.
You're so bias that you actually suffer from watcbing football. If you watch a Barcelona/Argentina game you probably are so angry at the prospect of Messi playing well instead enjoying the football and player, you look for all the flaws or just straight nit-pick so that you can come and gloat on here thatRonaldo is better.
There is nothing wrong with thinking one is better than the other...it's all opinions are the end of the day but you take it to the next level. Why can't you just enjoy Messi? Players like him don't come around often.
It's a bit odd also that you can have so much love and hate for two players that don't even play for the team you supposedly support.
Because 99% of the time the player who touched the ball last was the main reason the goal happened. Even in that example, was Berbatov's assist to Ronaldo more important to the goal than the movement and finish? If Berbatov doesn't do what he did then Ronaldo wouldn't have scored, if Ronaldo doesn't move off the ball the way he did it doesn't end in a goal. So how can you measure something like that?
Those outcomes will average out after enough games, same goes for goals. You can make the exact same shot, sometimes the keeper will save it, sometimes the defender will block it, sometimes it will go in. That's why through a long period of time assists are a valuable stat and it does measure if a player consistently creates for others or not.
The passer always gets the credit though wether the attacker scores or not while the ones who disrupt defenses through the way they move off the ball only get the credit when the ball gets to them and they do something good with it. Football's simple but measuring these things is not just complicated, it's impossible and no stats will ever be able to measure the impact an offensive player has on the game
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Even having been a very avid participant in this thread, I can’t believe that I’m seeing people agreeing that messi doesn’t take games by the scruff of the neck that often.
I don’t have the stats, but I would wager every penny I have that in the past 10 years, Messi has scored the equalizing or winning goal more often than 99.99% of footballers. He’s put that team on his back many a time.
I don’t have the stats, but I would wager every penny I have that in the past 10 years, Messi has scored the equalizing or winning goal more often than 99.99% of footballers. He’s put that team on his back many a time.
Honestly I don't think there's much in it either way so far and to say it's clear cut one way or the other seems wrong or biased. There's plenty more football in both of them and we'll have to wait until they retire before we can properly judge. By then I'd expect them to stand as the top two in the GOAT list, if they aren't there already.
I'm not saying he doesn't perform well, but Barca never needed to win that game and having scored a few minutes into the game, they were never really in any danger.
That's the opposite of dragging them through.
I've already said that Ecuador one counts. But just because Argentina are generally poor without him, doesn't mean they're always poor.
The initial question was "When was the last time you saw him drag his team across the finish line when they're struggling? He seems to be one who flourishes when his team plays well." I'm not denying Messi is generally Barca and Argentina's key player, I actually think he's the 2nd best player ever. But there's a difference between playing well and "drag his team across the line when they're struggling".
As posted on the last page:
If Messi was doing so much, Barca as a team should be scoring more than Real. No?
^ that really isn't a great argument. First, the difference is negligible. Second, there are a myriad of factors in play, so numerous that I can't be bothered to list them, it's stupid to draw any conclusion from that stat.
Here's a video of chances missed that Messi created last season, couldn't find one for 14/15;
Football can't be reduced to just numbers, this is what the stats don't show. Just watch it and enjoy it, you don't have to draw any conclusions from it either but rather just enjoy the skill.
Here's a video of chances missed that Messi created last season, couldn't find one for 14/15;
Football can't be reduced to just numbers, this is what the stats don't show. Just watch it and enjoy it, you don't have to draw any conclusions from it either but rather just enjoy the skill.
Which is exactly why he fully deserves his place as this generation's second best footballer.
there wasn't any, though. and I don't really agree it's a "what could have been situation" thing either, because we saw enough of him to judge him - what he could have won is a different story. yet despite not winning much outside his NT, for vast majority of people he easily enters all those lists/topic/discussions about best players of all time.There we go again with the fat Ronaldo comparison.
The reason why a small minority bring him into these conversations all the time is because they rate him based on "what could have been" rather than "what was achieved".
that was the point of my post - how much people value player's individual ability, not comparision with Messi and Cristiano. it obvious he can't match their careers. no player with exception of Pele can.
And here’s a video of chances created by Ronaldo last season
Of course Messi is easily the better playmaking. But for those who think Ronaldo is a pure poacher who does nothing else on the pitch, need to watch this.
Someone asked me to post this on his behalf because he doesn't have enough likes to post images yet
Something like this, where Messi dribbles past four players in the buildup to Suárez's goal:
Or when Messi just decided to nutmeg a third of City's team: (1) David Silva / (2) Fernandinho / (3) Demichelis / (4) Last but not least, James Milner
Or you can just look at the second leg, where Messi had a playmaking masterclass. Seriously, a pass like this is just absurd:
You look at the Semifinal against Bayern, where Messi is remembered for emasculating Boateng and Neuer. But then you have pieces of brilliance where Messi creates clear-chances either with his head or feet:
You get the second leg, where a perfect through-ball from Messi doesn't count as an assist because Suárez passes up the clear-chance to create an even better one for Neymar:
And then you get to the Final, where Messi totally destabilizes Juventus' defence without a goal or assist. Just look at the second goal for example:
When you have Le Tissier reacting like this because you've nutmegged so many different players:
When Juan Bernat says that it's impossible to control Messi, and that you have to kidnap him in order to stop him: http://www.mundodeportivo.com/futbo...864/bernat-habria-que-secuestrar-a-messi.html
When you have arguably the greatest goalkeeper ever calling Messi an alien:
When you have arguably the greatest defender ever saying Messi's surpassed Maradona:
You get a quote like this from Roy Keane:
It's actually a bit weird. Obviously there are people out there who have memories of a goldfish, but then there are also people who simply don't watch football even though there are so many different avenues to follow the sport.
Examples like what I've shown above are exactly why Messi's production can't be summed up by goals or assists. People just need to watch more football.
Very odd post. 2015 was only three years ago, so we don't need to look at primitive numbers to gauge Messi's performance. He put up some ludicrous displays, the 2014-15 season was at the peak of Messi's playmaking ability.
Something like this, where Messi dribbles past four players in the buildup to Suárez's goal:
Or when Messi just decided to nutmeg a third of City's team: (1) David Silva / (2) Fernandinho / (3) Demichelis / (4) Last but not least, James Milner
Or you can just look at the second leg, where Messi had a playmaking masterclass. Seriously, a pass like this is just absurd:
You look at the Semifinal against Bayern, where Messi is remembered for emasculating Boateng and Neuer. But then you have pieces of brilliance where Messi creates clear-chances either with his head or feet:
You get the second leg, where a perfect through-ball from Messi doesn't count as an assist because Suárez passes up the clear-chance to create an even better one for Neymar:
And then you get to the Final, where Messi totally destabilizes Juventus' defence without a goal or assist. Just look at the second goal for example:
When you have Le Tissier reacting like this because you've nutmegged so many different players:
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When Juan Bernat says that it's impossible to control Messi, and that you have to kidnap him in order to stop him: http://www.mundodeportivo.com/futbo...864/bernat-habria-que-secuestrar-a-messi.html
When you have arguably the greatest goalkeeper ever calling Messi an alien:
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When you have arguably the greatest defender ever saying Messi's surpassed Maradona:
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You get a quote like this from Roy Keane:
- “I was a big fan of Maradona growing up and of the current crop Ronaldo is good. But Messi is the best I’ve ever seen. I don’t dish out praise lightly but Messi deserves it. I look for weaknesses in his game and I can’t find them.”
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It's actually a bit weird. Obviously there are people out there who have memories of a goldfish, but then there are also people who simply don't watch football even though there are so many different avenues to follow the sport.
Examples like what I've shown above are exactly why Messi's production can't be summed up by goals or assists. People just need to watch more football.
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