Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[MJJ]

See, you can cite the post I already told you exists and then we can discuss that further. Would've taken less time than posting your painfully wannabe provocative one liners. There's even a search function. But I simply won't do it for you.

Its okay mate, we both know you did not reply to that post for a reason.

 

[Peyroteo]

@Zehner can you respond to this?

Why is trophies while taking into account the team around them and their importance to the team a bad metric to judge a player's quality?

I understand why trophies is a bad metric if you make a direct comparison. Gerrard was Liverpool's star and his teammates weren't the best. Obviously I'm not going to rate Sergi Roberto higher for winning more as a squad player in an incredible Barcelona team. No shit.

But two players, both the stars of their teams, one with better support than the other throughout his career and the one in a worse team won more than the one in a better team? Then that's a very different story wouldn't you agree?

So for the 10th time... as long as you take the circumstances into account, why is winning not a good metric?

Every single sport uses it in these arguments, why should football be any different?

 

[2mufc0]

@Peyrote You're up for the biggest Ronaldo defender on the Internet award of 2019

He's trying to overtake @Cal?

 

[AfroBuffalo]

It’s painful when people argue over who’s better. They’re so similar in ability it changes season by season.

If a Facebook post talking about 1 of the players is doing the rounds, the comments are all just people talking about the other 1 being better or worse.

Just kick back and enjoy the 2 greatest players to have existed play football.

Obviously no harm in logical comparison but when people argue for the sake of arguing it’s stupid

 

[Peyroteo]

@Peyrote You're up for the biggest Ronaldo defender on the Internet award of 2019

How many times are you going to make the same post?

Yeah. I'd understand it if most of them are paid like @Peyroteo but not everyone is a pro

@Peyroteo is working very hard to earn his salary

At least join in the fun rather than throwing a jab and running away

 

[Ishdalar]

Spain and Barcelona rarely cross the ball. Alba would love to have the option to cross high balls to Ronaldo... saying he wouldn't be able to is ridiculous.

If Marcelo played with Messi and Alba with Ronaldo, Alba would have more assist from high crosses and Marcelo would have more assists from low cutbacks. It has nothing to do with their skillset.

Rarely

Morata scoring a header from a cross vs Turkey


Morata scoring 2 headers from 2 crosses vs Liechtenstein


Morata, header from a cross vs Colombia


Yeah you're right, Alba could cross like Marcelo, or even David Beckham if he wanted to, but Messi is making him one dimensional.

 

[Peyroteo]

Rarely

Morata scoring a header from a cross vs Turkey


Morata scoring 2 headers from 2 crosses vs Liechtenstein


Morata, header from a cross vs Colombia


Morata, header from a cross vs Hungary


Yeah you're right, Alba could cross like Marcelo, or even David Beckham if he wanted to, but Messi is making him one dimensional.

Messi plays for Spain? What the feck... Barcelona barely cross, it has feck all to do with Jordi Alba. He's a great crosser of the ball when he actually tries it.

Showing me a few examples of Morata scoring from crosses proves absolutely nothing, they still barely cross. How many assists does 'world class crosser' Marcelo have for Brazil?

Goals from crosses have much more to do with the presence, movement and numbers in the box than they have to do with delivery. Most players can put a ball in, doesn't need to be a David Beckham cross to be dangerous.

Juventus score off crosses because they have Mandzukic and Ronaldo in the box, not because Alex Sandro and De Sciglio are doing the crossing.

 

[kouroux]

How many times are you going to make the same post?




At least join in the fun rather than throwing a jab and running away

I'm french, supposed to be a coward and everything I seriously admire your dedication bro

 

[Peyroteo]

I'm french, supposed to be a coward and everything I seriously admire your dedication bro

Why only mine though? I don't argue by myself.

 

[AaronRedDevil]

Ronaldo can get Messi but can Messi get Ronaldo? Exactly, it's doesn't make any sense.

 

[Zehner]

Its okay mate, I have already accepted you are full of shit and we both know you did not reply to that post for a reason.

Why is it that Ronaldo supporters always start insulting and swearing?

Just to prove a point;

14/15, 15/16, 16/17, 17/18. These are four seasons of Kroos and Modric in midfield and that alone was enough to have the best CM at that time. They still were accompanied by Isco and James Rodriguez occasionally with Kroos playing as a DLP so yeah, they had the best individual quality in CM as soon as 2014/15 and were up there even in 2013/14.

Took 10 fecking seconds but I guess even the usage of such a basic functionality like a search bar overstrains your cognitive capabilities.

Don't bother replying though, I'll put you on ignore anyway.

 

[Peyroteo]

Why is it that Ronaldo supporters always start insulting and swearing?

Just to prove a point;




Took 10 fecking seconds but I guess even the usage of such a basic functionality like a search bar overstrains your cognitive capabilities.

Don't bother replying though, I'll put you on ignore anyway.

2014/15 and 2017/18

Can't believe you're not ashamed to keep arguing that.

 

[MJJ]

Why is it that Ronaldo supporters always start insulting and swearing?

Just to prove a point;




Took 10 fecking seconds but I guess even the usage of such a basic functionality like a search bar overstrains your cognitive capabilities.

Don't bother replying though, I'll put you on ignore anyway.

Yeah I am the one resorting to insults. Okay so let me get this right, you were arguing that the trio were the best in the world for four years but a post where you move the goal post to Kroos and Modric is enough to support that argument? Not to mention those two only regularly played together in three years one of which is he current one where nobody will argue this.

But yeah you answered my question.

 

[Zehner]

I watch the games, don't need to watch youtube compilations. I'm going to start arguing Ronaldo is a better dribbler than Messi and showing you YouTube videos as proof, that will be fun.

Positional play isn't the same as off the ball movement to get the ball between the lines. It has nothing to do with Cruyff or Guardiola or their ideas of the sport, Barcelona don't even play like that these days. Messi plays with complete freedom, not with a set role in their build up.

Pretty much any player can follow the positional patterns Cruyff and Guardiola implemented, what they can't replace is the quality on the ball of Xavi and Iniesta. That set them apart, not their magical positioning and movement than noone can replace. You're the type of guy to rate Tuchel and Sarri above Ancelotti and Sir Alex Ferguson as managers.

I made my point, if those arguments didn't convince you, nothing will.

And no, I don't rate Tuchel or Sarri higher than them. Though I'd prefer both over Ancelotti currently, because he's outdated IMO. Doesn't take away his past achievements though.

@Zehner can you respond to this?

Because there are too many variables. You can spend the whole eternity analyzing what influence Zidane, Guardiola, their team mates, luck in cup competition and what not contributed to these titles. Everything's up for interpretation. But in general it is quite clear which player is better in which areas. Then it is only a question of how much weight you assign them.

 

[Zehner]

2014/15 and 2017/18

Can't believe you're not ashamed to keep arguing that.

Which midfield should've been better than Kroos and Modric in 14/15? Those two were comfortably the two best CMs in the world at that time. Busquets, Rakitic and Iniesta were close but not as good. In 2017/18 I guess you'd argue City and I'd understand that but I don't agree.

Even a Real fan has told you that Modric was the best CM since 2013 and Kroos currently has his first bad season for Madrid.

I mean, in 14/15 we are talking about the midfield of the CL winning team minus Alonso/di Maria and plus Kroos, which was a clear improvement..

 

[Ishdalar]

The idea that Barcelona players don't use crossing because they're poor at it rather than because they have no reference to cross to and it's not part of their style of play is nonsensical. If they had Ronaldo instead of Messi, you'd see Alba cross it high to him rather than low to Messi just as effectively.

Spain and Barcelona rarely cross the ball. Alba would love to have the option to cross high balls to Ronaldo... saying he wouldn't be able to is ridiculous.

If Marcelo played with Messi and Alba with Ronaldo, Alba would have more assist from high crosses and Marcelo would have more assists from low cutbacks. It has nothing to do with their skillset.

Messi plays for Spain? What the feck... Barcelona barely cross, it has feck all to do with Jordi Alba. He's a great crosser of the ball when he actually tries it.

Showing me a few examples of Morata scoring from crosses proves absolutely nothing, they still barely cross.

1) You say that Barcelona players are good crossers, they just don't cross because they lack references
2) I point out that Spain has had some of the best references (Morata, Aduriz, even Costa) and still Alba hasn't been able to produce a cross that ends up in a goal for years.
3) You say that "Spain rarely cross the ball"
4) I show you that the crosses are there, our players score headers from open play.
5) You caveat to "Messi doesn't play for Spain" and "we really don't cross much". We've scored a bunch of headers, we have world class strikers at that and still you think we don't use cross? You're basically saying we're stupid, right?.

Come on, say now that "most of those crosses are low". Jesus, get a tv. Between this and the way you ramble about our NT carrying Messi with Barcelona, it's clear you've missed every game of our last 3 big tournaments and have survived on stremeable clips for 8 seasons.

How many assists does 'world class crosser' Marcelo have for Brazil?

Goals from crosses have much more to do with the presence, movement and numbers in the box than they have to do with delivery. Most players can put a ball in, doesn't need to be a David Beckham cross to be dangerous.

Juventus score off crosses because they have Mandzukic and Ronaldo in the box, not because Alex Sandro and De Sciglio are doing the crossing.

As you said, because Brazil doesn't have a Morata or a Ronaldo to cross him the ball, is he going to spam crosses to William or Gabriel Jesus?. I don't expect Alba to make high crosses for Barcelona like I wouldn't expect from Marcelo, but I do expect him to do it with Spain as Marcelo has done for Real Madrid, and he hasn't.

My god, the same arguments you use in a post serve to dismount your own fallacy in the next post.

 

[Prometheus]

2014-2015-Casemiro was sent out on loan, Modric wasn't a starter making only 25 appearances and the best midfield in the world was the Juve diamond.

Hilarious discussion! So Casemiro was away on loan for the whole year but at the same time forming part of the best midfield in the world. I don't know if that's more impressive than Modric missing most of the year and getting similar plaudits from @Zehner.

 

[Zehner]

What's your point? De Bruyne was out for the majority of the season and still the midfield Silva/de Bruyne is currently the best in the world.

They had Modric, Kroos, Isco and James in their squad. That's definitely better than Vidal, Thiago and Alonso as well as Busquets, Iniesta and Rakitic.

Yes they had problems with injuries and they would probably have beaten Turin if Modric had been fit. Doesn't change they had the best midfielders altogether

 

[Prometheus]

What's your point? De Bruyne was out for the majority of the season and still the midfield Silva/de Bruyne is currently the best in the world.

They had Modric, Kroos, Isco and James in their squad. That's definitely better than Vidal, Thiago and Alonso as well as Busquets, Iniesta and Rakitic.

Yes they had problems with injuries and they would probably have beaten Turin if Modric had been fit. Doesn't change they had the best midfielders altogether

Because Casemiro wasn't even fecking there as several people had pointed out. Also the logic that Modric missed most of the year yet formed part of the best midfield in the world doesn't make any sense. Can you walk me through your logic for Modric? I don't understand how you can be the best if you're not even playing. Are we talking FIFA or something? This makes zero sense!

 

[Peyroteo]

1) You say that Barcelona players are good crossers, they just don't cross because they lack references
2) I point out that Spain has had some of the best references (Morata, Aduriz, even Costa) and still Alba hasn't been able to produce a cross that ends up in a goal for years.
3) You say that "Spain rarely cross the ball"
4) I show you that the crosses are there, our players score headers from open play.
5) You caveat to "Messi doesn't play for Spain" and "we really don't cross much". We've scored a bunch of headers, we have world class strikers at that and still you think we don't use cross? You're basically saying we're stupid, right?.

Come on, say now that "most of those crosses are low". Jesus, get a tv. Between this and the way you ramble about our NT carrying Messi with Barcelona, it's clear you've missed every game of our last 3 big tournaments and have survived on stremeable clips for 8 seasons.



As you said, because Brazil doesn't have a Morata or a Ronaldo to cross him the ball, is he going to spam crosses to William or Gabriel Jesus?. I don't expect Alba to make high crosses for Barcelona like I wouldn't expect from Marcelo, but I do expect him to do it with Spain as Marcelo has done for Real Madrid, and he hasn't.

My god, the same arguments you use in a post serve to dismount your own fallacy in the next post.

Why the feck? The circumstances couldn't be any different. Spain aren't a crossing team, they cross when they don't have options and everyone is in the box more often than not. The Iran game at the World Cup said it all.

You give me a statistic of 3 games... Spain and Real Madrid couldn't be more different. Costa isn't a striker you cross balls to, he's big and strong but he isn't that kind of player. Morata and Aduriz, yes. But it's one reference in the box compared to the 2 or 3 Madrid have.

'world class crosser' Carvajal for Spain has 2 assists from high crosses in his whole career ffs. And none of them were to Morata, Aduriz or Costa. Jordi Alba has a lot more assists from crosses, he just plays it back through the floor rather than through the air.

 

[Zehner]

Because Casemiro wasn't even fecking there as several people had pointed out. Also the logic that Modric missed most of the year yet formed part of the best midfield in the world doesn't make any sense. Can you walk me through your logic for Modric? I don't understand how you can be the best if you're not even playing. Are we talking FIFA or something? This makes zero sense!

What has the absence of Casemiro to do with Real Madrid having the best CM? You can have the best CM without having Casemiro in the squad, you know.

Regarding the injury topic: Let's assume Cristiano and Messi injured themselves at the same time. Nothing too bad, both out for two months. If I'd ask you "who are the two best players in the world?" during these two months, would you same Neymar, Mbappe, Hazard or whoever you consider the third best right now?

 

[Peyroteo]

I made my point, if those arguments didn't convince you, nothing will.

I've made mine. If those don't convince you, nothing will.

Because there are too many variables. You can spend the whole eternity analyzing what influence Zidane, Guardiola, their team mates, luck in cup competition and what not contributed to these titles. Everything's up for interpretation. But in general it is quite clear which player is better in which areas. Then it is only a question of how much weight you assign them.

No, it's not... it's a question of what areas to even consider and how can you divide their way of playing into different characteristics to even rate. Then you need to address the importance of the different characteristics... and that importance will once again completely depend on the team around them, the influence of the managers, how it translates to different setups and competitions, etc..

There are an uncountable amount of variables either way. If they both have the same importance to their teams, one has a worse team around him than the other and still won more... nothing complicated about that.

 

[VorZakone]

To be fair to the likes of @Peyroteo , I'm witnessing a change in opinion in my own surroundings (friends, family etc). They used to rate Messi higher but what Ronaldo has done in the past years...has been nothing short of absolutely amazing. My parents now rate Ronaldo higher.

 

[Peyroteo]

What has the absence of Casemiro to do with Real Madrid having the best CM? You can have the best CM without having Casemiro in the squad, you know.

Regarding the injury topic: Let's assume Cristiano and Messi injured themselves at the same time. Nothing too bad, both out for two months. If I'd ask you "who are the two best players in the world?" during these two months, would you same Neymar, Mbappe, Hazard or whoever you consider the third best right now?

Madrid's midfield was horribly unbalanced in 2014-15, how can you say they were better than Pogba-Vidal-Pirlo-Marchisio? It's not even close.

They played Illarramendi in midfield often because a midfield of Kroos-Modric-James was obviously far from ideal.

Arguing they were the best in 2017-18 but then forgetting 2018-19 despite them playing at the exact same level says it all though...

 

[VorZakone]

Madrid's midfield was horribly unbalanced in 2014-15, how the hell can you claim they were better than Pogba-Vidal-Pirlo-Marchisio? It's not even close.

Nevermind arguing they were the best in 2017-18 but then forgetting 2018-19 despite them playing at the exact same level...

But they had a 20+ win streak though.

 

[Peyroteo]

To be fair to the likes of @Peyroteo , I'm witnessing a change in opinion in my own surroundings (friends, family etc). They used to rate Messi higher but what Ronaldo has done in the past years...has been nothing short of absolutely amazing. My parents now rate Ronaldo higher.

Show them this thread if they ever change their minds again, I'll put some sense in them

 

[Peyroteo]

But they had a 20+ win streak though.

They destroyed in the easier games, the best football they've ever played came in the first half of 2014-15 imo.

Modric-Kroos-James/Isco was always doomed to fail though.

That's why they played Lucas Silva, Illarramendi or Khedira to give them some balance fairly often... and those aren't exactly the names you want in 'the best midfield in the world'.

That midfield was so unbalanced they even played 3 CBs at times to cover for it. Second leg vs Atletico at home in the 2014-15 quarters they played:

Casillas

Carvajal-Pepe-Varane-Ramos-Coentrão

Isco-Kroos-James

Chicharito-Ronaldo​

 

[Peyroteo]

Which midfield should've been better than Kroos and Modric in 14/15? Those two were comfortably the two best CMs in the world at that time. Busquets, Rakitic and Iniesta were close but not as good. In 2017/18 I guess you'd argue City and I'd understand that but I don't agree.

Juve, by a mile. Modric didn't even play for most of the season.

2017/18, City and Barcelona.

Even a Real fan has told you that Modric was the best CM since 2013 and Kroos currently has his first bad season for Madrid.

He was playing exactly the same way last season...

 

[Prometheus]

What has the absence of Casemiro to do with Real Madrid having the best CM? You can have the best CM without having Casemiro in the squad, you know.

Regarding the injury topic: Let's assume Cristiano and Messi injured themselves at the same time. Nothing too bad, both out for two months. If I'd ask you "who are the two best players in the world?" during these two months, would you same Neymar, Mbappe, Hazard or whoever you consider the third best right now?

Because the original post was you answering "four years" when asked for how many years were Casemiro-Kroos-Modric the best midfield in the world?!

Modric had a total of 22 appearances in the league and champions league, zero in the cup ffs. If that happened to Messi and Ronaldo? It would be the same thing. Obviously you would still argue that Messi was the best, though.

 

[Zehner]

Madrid's midfield was horribly unbalanced in 2014-15, how can you say they were better than Pogba-Vidal-Pirlo-Marchisio? It's not even close.

They played Illarramendi in midfield often because a midfield of Kroos-Modric-James was obviously far from ideal.

Arguing they were the best in 2017-18 but then forgetting 2018-19 despite them playing at the exact same level says it all though...

Horribly is an exaggeration. The year before that Alonso played as a DLP and in 2014/15, Kroos played there quite often. That was a clear upgrade, even defensively since Alonso was even less dynamic than Kroos and his tackles had become awful. I guess the idea was to copy Barca's midfield roles with Kroos playing in Busquet's position, Modric in Xavi's and Isco in Iniesta's. And no, I don't think Juve's midfield was better but it is a close call.

You act as if it is a fact that Kroos and Modric were as bad in 17/18 as they are now (though I think Modric is still having an okay season) but that's just your opinion and you happen to be pretty alone with it.

 

[Peyroteo]

Horribly is an exaggeration. The year before that Alonso played as a DLP and in 2014/15, Kroos played there quite often. That was a clear upgrade, even defensively since Alonso was even less dynamic than Kroos and his tackles had become awful. I guess the idea was to copy Barca's midfield roles with Kroos playing in Busquet's position, Modric in Xavi's and Isco in Iniesta's. And no, I don't think Juve's midfield was better but it is a close call.

You act as if it is a fact that Kroos and Modric were as bad in 17/18 as they are now (though I think Modric is still having an okay season) but that's just your opinion and you happen to be pretty alone with it.

Busquets and Xavi were elite defensively. Out of Kroos, Modric, James and Isco only Modric is good at pressing. How can anyone seriously say Madrid had a better midfield in 2014/15 than Juventus

It's not even a matter of opinion.

I'm not alone with my criticism of Kroos which has been going on for ages now, go to any spanish Real Madrid forum and read the comments Kroos was getting as soon as 2017... I called it here as soon as I saw Germany's team what a disaster that was going to be. Scored that huge goal vs Sweden and I got clowned for it despite him playing a terrible World Cup in line with what his season had been.

Acting like Kroos and Casemiro massively declined at 28 and 26 years old respectively as soon as Ronaldo left the team is what's impressive about all of this.

 

[Zehner]

Because the original post was you answering "four years" when asked for how many years were Casemiro-Kroos-Modric the best midfield in the world?!

Modric had a total of 22 appearances in the league and champions league, zero in the cup ffs. If that happened to Messi and Ronaldo? It would be the same thing. Obviously you would still argue that Messi was the best, though.

Oh, well, that explains it it's not so much about Casemiro for me but primarily about Modric and Kroos, so I probably excluded him in my head. Still, my bad.

The second part I don't believe you because players don't lose their standing just because they are temporarily injured.

 

[Tommy]

0 World Cup Knockout Goals between the two of them

If that's true, it almost makes Rooney's international record look good

 

[Prometheus]

Oh, well, that explains it it's not so much about Casemiro for me but primarily about Modric and Kroos, so I probably excluded him in my head. Still, my bad.

The second part I don't believe you because players don't lose their standing just because they are temporarily injured.

What do you mean by they don't lose their standing? If KdB won player of the year would you think it's deserved? Modric was out injured from late November till early March and then got injured again mid April and missed rest of the season. Temporarily missing 1-2 months, yeah that usually doesn't have a massive effect.

 

[MJJ]

Hilarious discussion! So Casemiro was away on loan for the whole year but at the same time forming part of the best midfield in the world. I don't know if that's more impressive than Modric missing most of the year and getting similar plaudits from @Zehner.

Careful, he will block you before he answers

 

[TheRedScot]

I don't see the point in you all arguing anymore. They are both too far on in there career for either set of fan base to change there mind. You either prefer 1 or the other. No amount of reasonable debate will change that.
All though i thin you Ronaldo Fans are blind hehehe

 

[Tommy]

I don't see the point in you all arguing anymore. They are both too far on in the career for either set of fan base to change there mind. You either prefer 1 or the other. No amount of reasonable debate will change that.
All though i thin you Ronaldo Fans are blind hehehe

I agree... Entirely

It's like debating musicians at this point. There's no real right answer, and you're not going to convince a Joe Pass fan that Beyonce is a better artist.

 

[Tostao_80]

I agree... Entirely

It's like debating musicians at this point. There's no real right answer, and you're not going to convince a Joe Pass fan that Beyonce is a better artist.

Depends, is she good at headers?

 

[Zehner]

What do you mean by they don't lose their standing? If KdB won player of the year would you think it's deserved? Modric was out injured from late November till early March and then got injured again mid April and missed rest of the season. Temporarily missing 1-2 months, yeah that usually doesn't have a massive effect.

Having a better season doesn't equal being a better footballer.

 

[Prometheus]

Having a better season doesn't equal being a better footballer.

So in your world the best midfield in the world is achieved on FIFA/paper? Modric was out most of the season, and Kroos arrived in the summer - so it's not like it was an existing partnership or anything. So what are you basing this on?