He had alonso at Madrid.
Midfield metronome
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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He had alonso at Madrid.
Fernandinho or Gündogan — both had made 130+ accurate passes in one game for City. which is very close to Jorginho’s tally. De Bruyne and Silva (and the likes of B. Silva who cover for them) are responsible for the creativity and chance creation while their defensive midfielder sets the tempo.
Yeah, that's my take on it. "Movement" and the lack of it has been a constant complaint for fecking ages but I don't think it's that simple. When each player that gets the ball takes two or more touches before looking to pass the ball then the opposition has time to get back in shape and all the movement in the world won't hurt them.
People rave about Liverpool's movement but their pressing game means they constantly have a numerical advantage in attack, so it's a piece of piss for attacking players to find space. In the absence of that high press the only way to stretch the opposition and create spaces is by really rapid transitions through midfield. For all his talent, Pogba's desire to constantly put his foot on the ball, and take a few touches before hitting a pass, slows us down and helps the opposition regroup. Ditto with Matic. Back in the day you'd have Scholes and Keane passing rapid, one touch, triangles which could turn us from defence to attack in an instant. Or Carrick threading first time passes through the lines. That just doesn't happen any more. It's all far too sloooooooow. At which point the movement - or lack thereof - kind of becomes irrelevant.
"Midfield metronome" sounds a bit vanilla but the point is that they slow things down, in order to be able to speed things up. It's the changes of pace that hurt the opposition and we've been infuriatingly one paced for ages.
Yes but thats a functioning midfield, rather than a single metronome no? Their whole midfield is filled with passers and movers.
Jorginho is a very good player and under a different manager or in another time/space I would have been excited to have him at United.
He is not a Mourinho No6 though and never will be. He would not be good in our current setup and he would not play under Mourinho. Thus we were not in for him, its kind of a moot discussion this until we change manager.
Some good comments above about why one cant compare a Sarri or Guardiola team with a Mourinho one. Klopps even less.
Jorginho would not have made us better or even played under Mourinho (he might have tried him at RW if I am going to be cynical).
He is not a Mourinho No6 though and never will be. He would not be good in our current setup and he would not play under Mourinho. Thus we were not in for him, its kind of a moot discussion this until we change manager.
Some good comments above about why one cant compare a Sarri or Guardiola team with a Mourinho one. Klopps even less.
Jorginho would not have made us better or even played under Mourinho (he might have tried him at RW if I am going to be cynical).
He did. Think he was the only one and he was already there. But, when he builds a team he goes for a pure DM along with a more classical playmaker or b2b. He doesn't want to control the game through possession so doesn't see that kind of player to be so important.
As much as United definitely need somebody dictating the tempo of games I can’t see how him attempting so many passes is a good thing. It probably goes a long way to showing why it finished 0-0 if he’s constantly recycling possession.
And Motta at Inter and Fabregas second time around at Chelsea. Tends to go with a 'passer' and a 'runner' in behind a #10 as his default midfield set up, or at least has done for the last decade or so.
Pogba's insistence at playing in a midfield-three has rather thrown a spanner in the works here though.
Yes, yes and yes. I wasn't responding to three questions but just emphasizing just how strongly I feel about this. It's been ages since Paul Scholes retired/declined, and we still haven't signed a proper metronomic playmaking midfielder. We desperately need that one CM who can dictate the tempo of a football match and has that extra time on the ball.
Aurthur seems to be the latest talent in this regard. I like what I see of him.
Aurthur seems to be the latest talent in this regard. I like what I see of him.
We've spent £400m. If the manager thought it a priority, we'd have gotten one.
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City don't have one either. Fernandinho isn't one.
Correct. But Liverpool aren't a really good example because they're very rare in that their true playmaker is their collective pressing. They bypass the need for playmaking because their team relies on highly intense pressing, winning the ball back fast and transitioning at rapid pace and committing plenty of men forward.
We are never going to play their way. Pretty much no one plays that way.
Take all the successful teams of the recent past and they've all had this kind of midfielder whether they play possession or counter attacking football.
Barcelona - Xaviesta
United - Scholes
Madrid - Kroos and Modric
Milan - Pirlo
Juve - Pirlo
Bayern - Kroos, maybe Schweinstieger (maybe not)
It's not the only way to play of course. I don't think Mourinho teams usually have one. At least at Chelsea and Inter didn't. But generally if you want to boss games you tend to need this kind of player.
KDB and Silva together play this role for City. They may be deadly in wide areas but the control they have over games comes from those two in the centre who have transitioned brilliantly from attacking roles to midfield/semi midfield ones.
Its not and hasnt been since we bought Matic. Matic will be our prime DM for one or two years more, its pretty clear from the time Jose bought him.
As you said: if we wanted another type of DM or even somebody in particular; I am pretty sure that Mourinho would have got one by now.
I never liked the Matic buy to begin with but I defer to the fact that he is very good in a low-block defense.
Yeah, if Jose wanted a player of this ilk he wouldn't have spent 50 million on Fred who absolutely isn't this sort of midfielder.
It's works when the passer and a runner plays as a B2B midfielder good at both attacking and with his defensive work and knows how to control the middle like in Lampard's instance or a Prime Schweinsteiger, at chelsea and Here both Fabregas and Pogba struggle in defensive part of the game and lack control in the middle while Matic is decling as well, though still good enough for most teams in his prime, which explains our over dependence on Matic. When he plays well united play well.
Pogba is just confused soul of what type of midfielder he is.
Score, assist and track back too.
Didn't seem confused for Juve and doesn't for France either.
Thats fair about Liverpool, my general point really was defining the way we want to attack and fixing our movement are much bigger issues and more important than signing any player even a metronome. Because the player will just have issues here, especially when they look up and there are hardly any positive passing option. They will get bashed on the cafe for being a sideways zombie passer.
Great passing midfielders are really only going to excel within a setup where the attacking movement ahead and around the team is good enough if its not you won't get to see their passes and ability to pick teams apart. Pogba could be far more dangerous for us if we sorted out these issues, because actually he a fecking brilliant passer of the ball.
Although granted it would be great if we also purchased a playmaker I think we could also go in another direction and be successful with someone like Pogba in our midfield if supported correctly.
That I agree with.
Playmaker goes alongside RW and fullbacks (maybe improved now) as our biggest personnel issues. But they are nothing compared to our biggest problems - poor management, poor development of players, poor cohesion and attacking coaching/tactics etc.
The latter, the systemic stuff, is easily the most critical stuff, evidenced by how we seem to be hugely effective at bringing all sorts of players/talents to mediocrity.
Watching Moutinho, I found myself asking why we didn't sign him a few years back.
There's always new CMs of this ilk popping up. Arthur looks a talent. What about Frenkie De Jong? I've heard he's amazing but is he more Ozil than Xavi?
Lets not forget that when Jose had potentially the world's best metronome in his squad, he barely utilized him in his first season.
If you look at Jose's midfield throughout his career, it negated the use of a metronome in the traditional sense (not a criticism, just the way his systems tended to work). I think at Chelsea in his final spell, we kind of saw him bring in more of a metronome in Fabregas but you could also argue that this version of Fabregas was slightly more outcome-minded (assist/goal provider) and less of a controller (like he was in his early Arsenal days).
I would also argue that for a midfield metronome to be effective and have the license to fully control a game, the team needs to be built around them and their strengths .. I am not sure Jose has it in him to enable that to occur. Jorginho would struggle in our side, whereas Sarri's entire philosophy is very possession based and he has runners around Jorginho to compensate for his lack of elite defensive awareness and poor physical attributes. If you watch Chelsea, Kante/Kovacic are instructed to always be in and around Jorginho and offer him short options so he doesn't get caught on the ball and the full-backs especially Alonso, are instructed to get high and wide, to give him a switch of play option under pressure or to allow him to increase the tempo when he wants.
Zidane on other hand has managed to win a CL with two metronomes in midfield, in Modric and Kroos. I think in some sense, that is why they struggled in the league as the side wasn't robust enough in midfield to handle teams week in week out but in the more tactical and sophisticated CL, it suited their midfield. No point us getting a midfield metronome for the sake of it, it'll just lead to more static possession but won't really make us more of a threatening outfit. Liverpool and even Man City are operating without a proper midfield metronome and are still killing it.. Barca haven't had a proper metronome since Xavi retired (Iniesta kind of compensated for this but they definitely weren't controlling games the same way).. so its not the key to playing a possession-based game but it certainly helps in addition to a proactive playing philosophy where all the players are on the same page.
If you look at Jose's midfield throughout his career, it negated the use of a metronome in the traditional sense (not a criticism, just the way his systems tended to work). I think at Chelsea in his final spell, we kind of saw him bring in more of a metronome in Fabregas but you could also argue that this version of Fabregas was slightly more outcome-minded (assist/goal provider) and less of a controller (like he was in his early Arsenal days).
Makelele
Essien Lampard
Cambiasso Motta
Sneijder
Alonso Khedeira
Ozil
Fabregas Matic
Oscar
Matic
Fred Pogba
Matic Fellaini
Pogba
I wouldn't say that Xabi Alonso and Cambiasso are metronomes in the same sense of a Pirlo, Xavi and Scholes in their prime. They're more of a Matic, where they can control possession to a degree but don't fully run the game like you'd expect from a more attack minded midfield maestro/playmaker.Essien Lampard
Cambiasso Motta
Sneijder
Alonso Khedeira
Ozil
Fabregas Matic
Oscar
Matic
Fred Pogba
Matic Fellaini
Pogba
I would also argue that for a midfield metronome to be effective and have the license to fully control a game, the team needs to be built around them and their strengths .. I am not sure Jose has it in him to enable that to occur. Jorginho would struggle in our side, whereas Sarri's entire philosophy is very possession based and he has runners around Jorginho to compensate for his lack of elite defensive awareness and poor physical attributes. If you watch Chelsea, Kante/Kovacic are instructed to always be in and around Jorginho and offer him short options so he doesn't get caught on the ball and the full-backs especially Alonso, are instructed to get high and wide, to give him a switch of play option under pressure or to allow him to increase the tempo when he wants.
Zidane on other hand has managed to win a CL with two metronomes in midfield, in Modric and Kroos. I think in some sense, that is why they struggled in the league as the side wasn't robust enough in midfield to handle teams week in week out but in the more tactical and sophisticated CL, it suited their midfield. No point us getting a midfield metronome for the sake of it, it'll just lead to more static possession but won't really make us more of a threatening outfit. Liverpool and even Man City are operating without a proper midfield metronome and are still killing it.. Barca haven't had a proper metronome since Xavi retired (Iniesta kind of compensated for this but they definitely weren't controlling games the same way).. so its not the key to playing a possession-based game but it certainly helps in addition to a proactive playing philosophy where all the players are on the same page.
Sure the stats looks impressive, but what had it actually acheived? Chelsea had over 70% possession against West Ham, but managed only 6 shots on target, that's 1 in every 15 minutes against a side that has the 3rd worst defence in the league. They simply lacked penetration, and once West Ham had set their stall out, Chelsea very rarely looked like they could break them down.
Is it fair to blame the inability to break down WH on one midfielder who plays as deep as Jorginho does, though? What about Chelsea's lack of a quality CF or general attacking support for Hazard? If our midfield can dominate that way away from home, I'll be ecstatic. Then it's upto the attack force to make an impact. If Chelsea had Aguero instead of Giroud and Morata, they win that match 3-0.
It’s not possible. Matic is our starting holding midfielder for the foreseeable future.
I think that type of player is far more valuable in a team of proper wingers stretching play.
As alluded to above, the bigger issue is the speed on the break. I actually thought we did quite well passing through the lines against Wolves and Fred certainly helped speed up the midfield transition. Sadly we don't have a winger to attack the opponents backline early on the break, they're always 10yrds deeper than they should be because they want the ball to feet.
As alluded to above, the bigger issue is the speed on the break. I actually thought we did quite well passing through the lines against Wolves and Fred certainly helped speed up the midfield transition. Sadly we don't have a winger to attack the opponents backline early on the break, they're always 10yrds deeper than they should be because they want the ball to feet.
It's not easy to neutralise Jorginho imo. Sarri is a clever manager and had success with Napoli. Most teams in the Prem won't stop Chelsea by putting a man on Jorginho.
Agree. Liverpool are playing the sort of football United should be playing. This revolves around a high-energy midfield, rather than a passing orientated one.
If you take the blueprint of how they play and the strongest players they have in each position, you could try to play a similar way with the players you've got, but it would mean dropping some pretty big names!
GK - Allison - Good feet, distribution and one-on-one - De Gea is predominantly a shot-stopper, probably the best in the world, but he's not as good on the ball. I'm confident he could do this role well though.
RB - Trent - Fast, good on the ball, great delivery - Valencia can't be this player any more, but early signs are maybe that Dalot could?
CB - Gomez - Confident on the ball, strong, fast - Bailly at his best could do this maybe? But at the moment, Lindelof looks like he might be a better bet.
CB - Van Dijk - A colossus. See Gomez but add leadership and aerial ability into the mix - you don't have a player of his stature at the back. Smalling is as close as you will get this season unfortunately. A priority for the transfer window.
LB - Robertson - Fast, good on the ball, great delivery - Shaw could be a better version in time.
CM - Henderson - Does nothing silly. Protects his back 4, plays it simple and presses opposition when out of possession - Matic can do the first 2 better than Henderson, but not as high-energy to press the ball when out of possession. Someone like Pereira could maybe still offer the first two with that extra energy too.
CM - Wijnaldum (will be Keita once he's fully up to speed) - Midfield player who can get up and down, recycle possession, offer a goal threat and help out defensively, a true box-to-box player - Fred is your man for this role.
CM - Milner - Almost a carbon copy of the other CM role - Pogba could do this role, but is probably not intense enough out of possession or disciplined enough defensively.. Someone like Herrera might be a better option here if you look to play this way.
3 FWs - Sane, Firmino, Salah. 3 forwards with pace, who can interlink, swap positions, work hard in and out of possession and all offer a goal threat! No out and out striker. Of all the players you currently have, Rashford, Sanchez (in form) and Lingard probably give you the best blend. The freedom that a forward line like this has might finally get Sanchez going!
So that's a team of......
De Gea
Dalot___Lindelof___Smalling___Shaw
Herrera___Pereira___Fred
Lingard___Rashford___Sanchez
No Pogba, Lukaku, Matic, Martial, Valencia, Bailly or Fellaini.Dalot___Lindelof___Smalling___Shaw
Herrera___Pereira___Fred
Lingard___Rashford___Sanchez
Might be worth trying it and seeing what happens.
Weighl or Pellegrini.
Yes, that would be his first real test. Chelsea have had a pretty easy run up of games so far. We'll see how good he is when they play Liverpool.
Taking a bit of time to pick the right pass, even if it means moving the ball around a few times back to the same player is certainly an important aspect of possession football, and also something we don't seem to set out to do. Pereira at 6 was maybe a go at this, but it isn't Matic's game, and obviously isn't Fellaini's.
Only as far as identifying it as the type of player we lack. Ultimately, the problem Chelsea had at WH wasn't the quality of their attackers, but their inability to create oppotunities for them. How many gilt-edged chances did the strikers miss? When the midfield 3 of Chelsea is rated as highly as they are, creating chances shouldn't be an issue. Hazard had an off day, and therefore so did Chelsea.
Jorginho is a luxury player and his defensive shortcomings are ripe to be badly exposed, probably Liverpoool look the best bet to do so. Have never been a fan.
Matic can do the role and provide solidity in the middle for us.
Matic can do the role and provide solidity in the middle for us.
I don't think Thiago is absolutely unavailable. Give Bayern a crazy bid and they might accept. Kroos on the other hand .
Let's see how Jorginho copes when the pitches get heavier, and the cold really kicks in.....
If we need/want a metrognome we should've just persevered with Thomas Cleverley.
If we need/want a metrognome we should've just persevered with Thomas Cleverley.
At juventus , he was icing on the cake for a midfield controlled by Pirlo, and Vidal, two world class midfielders in their prime, while Pirlo was a top Level Playmaker cum metronome. Even at juventus Pogba was the same as he is today, Juventus just got the attacking best out of him, while in his last year he was not that good as well, he was the same there as well, just used better in a better balanced side than ours.
If Fergie was still here Pogba would have never been the most important midfielder of his team. Pogba lacks at the basic positioning when the team is without the ball.
While even in France he ain't the most proactive midfielder who keeps control of the games . everyone can argue that international football is not top level football though he has better options playing with him like kante who is a top midfielder in terms of proactive ness in winning back the possession and being in control without much tackling.
Pogba's has gigantic potential if he works on his flaws but does it seem to work hard enough in that area, he still has to learn a lot.
They missed some absurd chances if goal. Willian missed one that i would have scored.