What makes you think Ed Woodward knows more about football than any of us?
Football isn't a black box, it's not rocket science. Even if Ed has made it look it with his awful decision making.
Minimum Bar for Continuity in Ole's Third Full Season
- Thread starter Raveneye
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Football isn't a black box, it's not rocket science. Even if Ed has made it look it with his awful decision making.
It wasn't an open competitive competition and with all due respect to Leicester it was a dogshite season with none of the top teams clicking. That's what you could call a freak season.
With the additions of Varane and Sancho I can't understand how we don't expect to get more points than last sesson. We came second in the league last season with 74 points. Surely, surely our points tally has to increase or else what's the point in signing top players.? Don't they improve a team? Doesn't improving a team equal better results? Unless we're decimated by injuries name me another scenario where our points tally shouldn't be (significantly?) higher than last season?
Woodward is a banker. The question was about Moyes, Mourinho, LvG, and Ole. First of all Moyes - maybe I could have done better so fine. But the rest, do you actually think had a random fan been in charge of Manchester United they could have done better?What makes you think Ed Woodward knows more about football than any of us?
Football isn't a black box, it's not rocket science. Even if Ed has made it look it with his awful decision making.
No, you're just changing the goalposts. Your original point was that you are glad fans don't have a say in hiring and firing managers. Nothing to do with fans doing better than the managers themselves.
My point is yes the fans absolutely would have done a better job hiring and firing managers than Woodward and the current board. Everything from hiring LVG despite him planning to retire in 3 seasons, gambling on Mourinho, jumping the gun and giving Ole a permanent deal prematurely. All shit decisions. And let's not forget it was also our esteemed board that scared Klopp off with their awful pitching.
If fans had a say in hiring and firing we'd probably be managed by Pochettino or Tuchel right now. Would we be worse off for that? Definitely not.
All comes down to how fast the signings settle. If they fit right away, at least 80 points in the league.
FA cup - semi finals
CL - quarters or maybe semi (depending on who we face leading to it.)
League Cup - would like to win.
FA cup - semi finals
CL - quarters or maybe semi (depending on who we face leading to it.)
League Cup - would like to win.
Or alternatively, they won it because all the usual suspects had poor seasons, with Chelsea near the relegation zone in December, City announced the departure of their manager halfway through the season, and United were having trouble with getting shots on target. It was an anomaly, as shown by the points amassed by the next five league winners: 93, 100, 98, 99, 86.
This is exactly why points totals are better targets ahead of a season: everything else depends on how other teams do, something we have almost no control over. You can re-evaluate them in the context but as of now there's no reason why this team shouldn't be capable of getting 80+ points. If we don't, that's a failure unless we somehow win the league with that which is exceedingly unlikely.
And besides, what other target would be realistic? Continued progression in terms of positions? That would mean winning the league. Top 4? That's probably the bar set by the owners but we could easily go backwards in terms of performances and still get top 4 so it doesn't mean that much - as a fan, I want to see more than that.
I agree but doesn't the same logic apply to judging Ole's performance, ability and potential? His bosses seem to be pretty happy with him. The players have also expressed nothing but positive feedback for his ability and style. He is, obviously, able to attract the best players in the world to join the club, which means that they buy into his stuff. So, at what point do we ask ourselves, am I wrong in thinking he is not the right manager?
Nah less goals than that conceded. At most 10 to 15. Hopefully we play a very attacking if you score I wills score style and be brave enough to stick with it. Make teams scared of us.
Both LvG and Jose were very popular candidates at the time. It was very much akin to getting Poch or Tuchel now. The only unpopular appointment so far has been Ole - the one who’s shown the most promise and has almost single handedly brought some sense of identity back at a club that was drifting.
No mo more cutting slack, after the investment the last three years he need to win
Improve the first team and the squad. Sancho and Verane are massive signings but they do not complete the first team let alone make our back up options anywhere near the same standard as City's. Furthermore, if we don't get an improvement to the midfield this window, that is not on OGS it's totally on the Glazers. The thing is we need to move past McFred if we are to really challenge. We need to move away from the double pivot.
Win a trophy or get sacked.
Probably just me but tbh I don't give a feck about silverware as long as the football is entertaining enough and I have fun watching us. But of course, minimum is CL football next season.
So 5th in the league, knocked in group stage in CL, out early in the FA, and 1st and trophy for League Cup is fine with you?
I just can't understand the trophy or out stance especially when the trophies include FA, LC and EL. I would much rather lose all the cups, finish an exciting 2nd in the EPL, and lose a close knockout tie to a very good team in the CL. That would mean much entertainment and that we are on the right path for meaningful trophies in the near future.
Totally agree.
4th, league cup/fa cup win and out at the last 16 of the CL would keep his job, but for me that would not be good enough.
I’ve openly ripped Arsenal in recent years for celebrating seasons like that and haven’t looked on with much envy.
I do think Ole is under immense pressure. Got the signings we all wanted. Plus there’s Conte and Zidane lingering.
Ole seems to be the master of getting results under pressure though. I hope it just doesn’t come to that and we’re great this season.
Ole seems to be the master of getting results under pressure though. I hope it just doesn’t come to that and we’re great this season.
No. Firstly, finishing in the top 4 goes without saying. Any United manager who can’t do that should be automatically sacked as soon as top 4 is out of reach.
By a trophy, I mean win the Premier League, Champions League or the FA Cup as a bare minimum. That winning mentality needs to be triggered and it has to be this season, as he has signed the players he wanted.
In terms of progression as a team, it‘s all about being in Premier League title races and high points tallies and getting to Champions League quarter final stages.
Winning an FA Cup or League Cup doesnt really compare. They’re just nice extras provided you do the PL/CL bits right.
Winning an FA Cup or League Cup doesnt really compare. They’re just nice extras provided you do the PL/CL bits right.
I wouldn't mind an F.A. Cup, not instead of what you mentioned, but on top of what you mentioned. They have to win something sometime. Otherwise we turn into the teams we snigger at for not winning anything for years.
So third place with more points is good enough?
More points in the league & a trophy. He really needs to start winning high pressure knockout games. The CL exit last season & Europa league final were absolutely shocking from him.
Good enough for what?
For celebrating a great season? - No.
The real question is though what would be bad enough to demand the manager be sacked?
Is third in the league bid enough to be sacked? I don't think we've ever done that in our history and probably won't.
If third place is finishing 2 points behind Chelsea and 4 points behind City, then yes.
If third place is finishing like 8-20 points behind the winners - no. That would obviously merit Ole getting sacked, no debate to be had.
As long as he qualifies for the CL he'll keep the job. What is satisfying for us fans is a differen't matter.
Myself I want consistency, if we enter another of those catastrophic slumps like we've had a few times under Ole. I'd want him gone because I feel that those slumps are manager issues.
Have you run a large organisation before where you make the final decisions for hundreds or thousands of employees -- and the topline revenues in the hundreds of millions of dollars or more?What makes you think Ed Woodward knows more about football than any of us?
Football isn't a black box, it's not rocket science. Even if Ed has made it look it with his awful decision making.
It's always easy for people who have one singular function in an organisation to criticise their CEO -- especially when they have no clue the amounts of perspectives, objectives and considerations a CEO has to make and be accountable to.
I suspect Woodward will know more about football/business than 99.9% of us here. Its always easy to criticise when you are looking at individual line items of the business.
But when you have to look at the club/business in its entirety; life gets a lot more complex where there is actual accountability rather than just a simple fan (bitching on a forum) thinking decisions are so obvious and black & white.
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continue on the upward trajectory. Or at least plateau.
obviously it's not guarantee we go from 2nd to 1st, we can even get 4th and it wouldn't be terrible. But if we play well, get results, and see progress, that's fine by me. Good cup runs, top 4, and good overall team play to build on.
obviously it's not guarantee we go from 2nd to 1st, we can even get 4th and it wouldn't be terrible. But if we play well, get results, and see progress, that's fine by me. Good cup runs, top 4, and good overall team play to build on.
That's all irrelevant. I don't doubt Woodward is a good business CEO, nobody doubts that. This is just going over and over such well-trodden ground, his legacy at United is doing the business side very well and the football side very poorly.
He knows more about "football/business"? What is football/business? Sounds like a nonsense term. There's knowing about football, knowing about the business of football, and then there's knowing about business. Three separate things and Woodward's career has shown he only really knows one of them.
You only have to look at the way he behaved with the SuperLeague, how he managed to burn his bridges with pretty much every significant football person in Europe overnight by being so deceitful, how he sends teams of lawyers to do transfer negotiations, going behind current managers' backs and essentially firing them via the press.... all behaviour that shows his priorities and his expertise are that of a business man not a football man.
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Unless you think United is a charitable organisation which its not, it has to be looked at as a business first and foremost. As in any business it's about objectives, limitations and establishing your priorities/choices before we even get to execution. All that affects the football side of the organisation.
Any CEO will be a jack of all trades, a generalist.
He will have to blend in all factors from the hiring of key employees to set aside budgets for various projects to the maintenance of OT to managing the budgets set aside for each team from the U8s to the U23s to the senior squad to MUTV, catering, security etc. And making a profit out of all of that.
Without a well run organisation/business, there is no way we could afford to do all that. And without knowing the club and including the football side of things well enough, how could you possibly know your business?
Ideally a trophy, but I’d be happy with giving things a good go as long as
1) we play like a cohesive team 90%+ of the time
2) He doesn’t sit on the bench like a gormless zombie and actually affects games with good in game management
3) he uses the squad properly
Im highly sceptical of the guy, but he’s our manager so let’s see what he’s got. Currently a blank slate for th season, so up to him to win us over.
1) we play like a cohesive team 90%+ of the time
2) He doesn’t sit on the bench like a gormless zombie and actually affects games with good in game management
3) he uses the squad properly
Im highly sceptical of the guy, but he’s our manager so let’s see what he’s got. Currently a blank slate for th season, so up to him to win us over.
People talk about weaknesses in the team but often leaves out the manager. He has a glaring question mark over his head in terms of if he is good enough considering how his team has failed at crucial points in the season.
He is under immense pressure!
He is under immense pressure!
EPL: Title challenge.
FA/EFL: Winner one of them.
CL: QF.
FA/EFL: Winner one of them.
CL: QF.
Not sure if it was intentional, but attempting to describe Ed as a generalist CEO is outright dishonest. If anything, he’s probably a specialist in finance and a Man Utd fan. (Nothing wrong with that, many CEO’s are specialists, and a lot of research arguing which is better )
A trophy please
Yes finishing 2nd and 3rd with a clearly inferior squad is definitely a failure.
In my opinion we need to be properly challenging for the title, advance at least to the quarters in the CL and hopefully win the FA Cup (very unlikely imo).
In general, I want us to see play better football in terms of being able to dominate and win against smaller teams. We should become a proper force again in the League
In general, I want us to see play better football in terms of being able to dominate and win against smaller teams. We should become a proper force again in the League
Talksport saying United should sack Ole as he isn't good enough!
https://talksport.com/football/925760/man-utd-chelsea-sack-solskjaer-premier-league-title/
https://talksport.com/football/925760/man-utd-chelsea-sack-solskjaer-premier-league-title/
Kind of bored with people saying that well Chelsea & City are better anyways so it’s hard to compete with them. Whole point of having good managers is to do what isn’t really supposed to be done by the way of tactics,man management and best use of what you have. No one expected Liverpool to win the league or Cl under Klopp,same for Chelsea under Tuchel. If you can’t even compete with them with this current squad after 3 years at the club then it’s not a good look for you as a manager.
This is a daft argument in an economy where no decent player costs under £50m any more.
I think the narrative is people expect us to compete in some capacity but wouldn't be surprised if City or Chelsea actually won stuff.