Moby VS Mazhar - NT peak draft

Who would win based on their peaks in the chosen tournaments?


  • Total voters
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  • Poll closed .
Massive apologies for the absence, really had no room whatsoever to get any break yesterday.

@Edgar Allan Pillow @Arbitrium Firstly about Meazza, of course back when he played the game was entirely different and especially the formations were little like anything we see today, I don't think I interpreted the draft rules wrongly here because they don't say you have to play the exact same formation in which the player played. By which logic, you should be able to deploy a player in a setup where largely his qualities, skills and let's say action zones reflect the ones you use. Because otherwise, Cruyff didn't play in a Xmas tree in 1974 or Bobby Charlton didn't play in a Zona Mista in 1966 or here, Gerson wasn't a part of a 3 man midfield with two CMs on both his sides in 1970 and instead had a 4-2-4 with wide players on both sides, etc. Asking for that is extremely unreasonable, if I have to play Meazza in his same role that he played then I'd have to play a 2-3-5 that they played and same goes for any player that is being used in a different formation - makes having an all time timeline in this draft absolutely pointless. If we are going to point out inconsistencies here I'd argue that my opponent is far more experimental with the usage of his players than I have been.

Now back to Meazza, 1934 was the tournament where Pozzo changed his position from a Center Forward, his club role, to an inside forward (and EAP, he was inside-left, not inside-right in 1934), to maximise the utilization of his entire skillset, at his absolute best Meazza was primarily a very skillful forward, who would be known for his exceptional technique and dribbling skills, as well as his composure in front of goal highlighted by his penchant for dribbling past keepers and often scoring in an empty net. In this world cup, he was given more responsibility to act as the creative force behind other forwards as well as make his trademark runs from wide channels towards the goal.

History has never denied the quality of their football, or inside-forward Meazza, the team’s star player. “He had a technique which wouldn’t come about until the 1950s,” said John Foot, professor of modern Italian history at the University of Bristol and author of "Calcio," a book on the history of Italian football. “He had it all. It gave him a massive advantage.”

Meazza remains a World Cup immortal, its finest pre-war player. Those who saw both players have compared Meazza favourably to Pele.


“He was a striker who [had] great technical skills, great tricks, and famous going past all the defenders and the goalkeeper and then scoring without the keeper in the goal,” Roberto De Longhi, curator of the "Giuseppe Meazza, the legend lives" website, tells ESPN FC.

So, I fail to see what a false 9 has to perform that Meazza wasn't asked for. And importantly, it was his fearlessness of expressing himself and absolute freedom in that role that allowed him to constantly be a real thorn in opposition defenses. That is what makes him consistent with my team's philosophy, they are all allowed to go out there, see for themselves the best course of action and play their natural game.

Now, to how it all fits in my team - the player on Meazza's left acting as the left winger/wing forward is Rob Rensenbrink. He played that role with another inside-left playing in the middle who goes by the name of Johan Cruyff. Cruyff and Meazza's action zones and dribbling trajectories were near identical during their world cup campaigns and if there's anyone who would dovetail precisely with that, it is Rob Rensenbrink. Rob is not playing a touchline hugging winger here, which also answer people asking for a proper #9, as @oneniltothearsenal said, that would still allow the winger to impact the game but not as much as in the setup where they are key to the strategy, getting far more into the thick of things and I am backing them to relish that. Someone like Lato who was the top scorer in the world cup will be allowed to showcase his goalscoring to a larger extent that in a simple 4-2-3-1 or something, both of them made constant runs into the box in 74 and that is what I need here a lot.
 
Now coming to Luis Suarez, I looked at his Euro performances and how he played there, and as I mentioned in my write up, I have him as an attacking midfielder here. Now, what confuses me is the apparent conflict between him and Meazza. Firstly, they would occupy different channels from each other avoiding any horizontal clashes. Secondly, to me it is paramount to have a willing, dynamic attacking midfield in such a setup who would make forward runs when the false 9 drops deep. I should have mentioned this in the OP but I would love to see Meazza and Suarez rotate and switch roles from time to time. I'd like to tag @Joga Bonito to clarify this perhaps, he mentioned me going for me Euro team and in that I would have had Suarez in Albert's role, at least that I what I gather from his performances for Spain and similarly in this formation it is his intelligence and technical prowess combining with Xavi and Monti during buildup in combination with explosiveness going forward when the ball is in the final third. With Meazza in a free role, if there's a vacant space in the box he should be making those runs. But of course, that is mainly about his combination with Meazza, primarily he is going to provide a great hard working, expressive and creative presence in midfield in combination with the other players and be instrumental in transitioning the ball. I also think he would be great with someone like Xavi in his 2008 role who loved to take risks a lot more than his later NT version and would constantly look to get others forward while controlling the tempo of the game. What the headache of controlling the tempo taken away from Suarez, he should flourish in a more adventurous role further up.
 
Also, there was a bit of an personal objective for me here to take a few key players and put them in formations that are different from the ones they played in and see if they fit just as well, I thought that would make a relatively all time draft rather challenging and interesting and I did that with the likes of Meazza and Xavi. I already had the latter in the Euro draft playing more or less in an identical setup, however this formation and tactic is not what Spain used in 2008, yet it would be extremely elevated having Xavi with pretty much those kind of performances.

I needed a really free flowing and high tempo creative approach in this game with someone who could boast of running the show in a team that attacked the opposition every single time they got the ball and he would fit the bill. Their very first game, they came out and smashed Russia 4-1, Villa scored a hat trick and Torres finished the rout and Villa's third goal actually came from a blistering counter attack, where they took maybe around 10 seconds to go from one end to another. You'd never have that in a 2010 version of Xavi for example or even the Barca one, but I have always argued that Xavi would be absolutely devastating in a more free flowing and faster setup because he had all the gears in him and could switch them effortlessly.

I don't want this team to constantly try to break down the opposition with the same routine, instead I have a team that always keeps on finding new ways to score, ones who analyze the opposition and can figure out their weaknesses and exploit that. For that, I needed highly intelligent players who were not shy of leading such tactics and making quick decisions, deciding on the flow of play throughout the game. Similarly, Suarez and Meazza are both not in the identical setups that they were in (as I wrote above, very few players especially attacking ones in the draft are) but at the same time they would have to play more or less similar to what they did to make this setup work.
 
Anyways, here's the Willi Schulz compilation that I promised. @Joga Bonito



I really admire this defensive performance. The man was everywhere and did a great job in sweeping up the Soviet attacks. If he had to face a 1-on-1 battle, he always won it. Whenever a pass would be played beyond the defensive line, he was always around to test the Soviets and hold them back. On the ball, he was also quite skilled. His passing was very good, and he would quite often pick out the attacking players with long, lofted diagonals or zipped ground passes.


These compilation videos are by far the best part of these drafts, I'll have to learn how to make them. He snuffed out danger so well he got into the head of that poor opponent who had no confidence at all half way through after being dispossessed by Schulz a few times. :lol: Definitely a far better defender than I could have imagined and his ability to deal with one vs ones is certainly GOAT quality. The man deals with both the left and right side in a remarkable manner. It's like he wants to be put in a 1 vs 1 situation and seeks it out because he knows how good he was there.
 
I love Moby's wingers. I wanted both Lato and Rensenbrink and feel they are two of best and most dangerous wingers in this format.

I can see the comments on a no.9 but the way I see it, with a no.9 + Meazza plus both wingers wouldn't be a good tactical choice against Mazhar/Arbitrium's side. Moby needs the extra man in the middle to contain the opponent's 3 midfielders + Zico otherwise Maz/Arb's side would dominate too much of the possession and I don't think Moby wants to concede that.

I think this was the right choice tactically to keep the powerful influence of Lato and Rensenbrink and not concede the midfield.

He already has Monti, Scirea, Xavi and Suarez in the midfield battle in one way or another. A great libero like Scirea and a false-9 just makes it odd and congested in the middle as suddenly he has five players participating in a midfield battle for no reason. The more he congests that space, the less he will able to use the space himself and a numerical advantage coming from Scirea is already enough to make that an even one at least. If he goes for someone like Ronaldo('98) then he has a player who still drops deep on occassion but who also adds a threat behind the defenders as a proper 9.
 
but rather were on the game they played
In which case there shouldn't be much issue.

And whether Suarez and Meazza occupied the same position had overlaps the way the they played the respective tournaments.
That was intentional, in the absence of a #9, there will be space inside and around the box and we need someone to constantly be available in that area, whether it is Meazza or someone else when he drops deep...
 
I never intended it to be like that. The example that you picked out specified that our team would be able to handle whatever team faced us both offensively and defensively. You only made it seem defensive because you saw Gérson in what you interpreted to be a Pirlo role and assumed that I would have two defensive-oriented B2B's.

That's the immediate reading off your teamsheet. It seems what you meant was more like a lop-sided

--------Gerson--------Neeskens
----------------Clodoaldo

Mate, so we are clear, I'm not being critical or dense for the sake of it. This game was long gone when I gave my feedback with a view to well, feed back, particularly to Arbitrium seeing as it is his first draft.

It's a sloppy teamsheet. Look at both teamsheets in the OP and it takes no rocket scientist to tell one has an edge independent of player peaks and tactics. If on top of that you convey a wrong message/impression you will struggle.

Ask any shopkeeper and he will tell you the way you display your goods is crucial. Neeskens X-factor was bottom shelf at the end of the toilet paper aisle.

Of course drafters will once again laugh that those nuances (like using CAPS, because you have great players, so why hide them?) shouldn't matter. They do, it's bleeding obvious that they do, yet here we are once again complaining people didn't read or misinterpreted an op. Most won't read the OP, deal with it. How? Get your teamsheet sending the right message to begin with.
 
That's DavidG.

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That's DavidG.
Ah. Feck them then. Amateurs. ;) Great vid, mind.

Good posts on the Meazza role. I had a similar take in that what was asked of him was in line with what he did and could do, the downside being he may be a bit confused or out of sorts about the formation and lack of a striker (if you get prickly about teleporting the peak tournament man as is without any scope for drilling him on team tactics).
 
Congrats @Moby

Two reenforcements away from potentially winning this thing, midfield 3 is sensational and the wingers are exactly what this draft is about, tournament defining performances.
 
Now coming to Luis Suarez, I looked at his Euro performances and how he played there, and as I mentioned in my write up, I have him as an attacking midfielder here. Now, what confuses me is the apparent conflict between him and Meazza. Firstly, they would occupy different channels from each other avoiding any horizontal clashes. Secondly, to me it is paramount to have a willing, dynamic attacking midfield in such a setup who would make forward runs when the false 9 drops deep. I should have mentioned this in the OP but I would love to see Meazza and Suarez rotate and switch roles from time to time. I'd like to tag @Joga Bonito to clarify this perhaps, he mentioned me going for me Euro team and in that I would have had Suarez in Albert's role, at least that I what I gather from his performances for Spain and similarly in this formation it is his intelligence and technical prowess combining with Xavi and Monti during buildup in combination with explosiveness going forward when the ball is in the final third. With Meazza in a free role, if there's a vacant space in the box he should be making those runs. But of course, that is mainly about his combination with Meazza, primarily he is going to provide a great hard working, expressive and creative presence in midfield in combination with the other players and be instrumental in transitioning the ball. I also think he would be great with someone like Xavi in his 2008 role who loved to take risks a lot more than his later NT version and would constantly look to get others forward while controlling the tempo of the game. What the headache of controlling the tempo taken away from Suarez, he should flourish in a more adventurous role further up.

Nah, that would be the one-in-two Barca Suarez who frequently made those runs and was more AM-esque who'd slot in brilliantly behind a false 9. The 64 Suarez was definitely dynamic and was brilliant with his movement off the ball and frequently ventured onto the flanks, dropped deep or linked up with forwards, but never made those runs into the box. I had him in a hybrid Giresse-Tigana (not the defensive part, more his dynamism although his workrate shouldn't be disregarded and frequently won the ball back) supporting role to Platini in the Euros draft myself. I can see him being the perfect upgrade to Fabregas in Spain's 2008 4-5-1 for instance, not so much Albert which doesn't seem right to me. Suarez-Meazza isn't ideal but the wing-forwards were a great fit for Meazza though, as I mentioned earlier.
 
Now coming to Luis Suarez, I looked at his Euro performances and how he played there, and as I mentioned in my write up, I have him as an attacking midfielder here. Now, what confuses me is the apparent conflict between him and Meazza. Firstly, they would occupy different channels from each other avoiding any horizontal clashes. Secondly, to me it is paramount to have a willing, dynamic attacking midfield in such a setup who would make forward runs when the false 9 drops deep. I should have mentioned this in the OP but I would love to see Meazza and Suarez rotate and switch roles from time to time. I'd like to tag @Joga Bonito to clarify this perhaps, he mentioned me going for me Euro team and in that I would have had Suarez in Albert's role, at least that I what I gather from his performances for Spain and similarly in this formation it is his intelligence and technical prowess combining with Xavi and Monti during buildup in combination with explosiveness going forward when the ball is in the final third. With Meazza in a free role, if there's a vacant space in the box he should be making those runs. But of course, that is mainly about his combination with Meazza, primarily he is going to provide a great hard working, expressive and creative presence in midfield in combination with the other players and be instrumental in transitioning the ball. I also think he would be great with someone like Xavi in his 2008 role who loved to take risks a lot more than his later NT version and would constantly look to get others forward while controlling the tempo of the game. What the headache of controlling the tempo taken away from Suarez, he should flourish in a more adventurous role further up.

Though it fits well on paper, I still find that it practical albeit a bit tenuous. You have a false 9 operating in a Inside Left and a Left midfielder operating in a Inside Right channels to avoid overlaps. Add in a false 9 and the requirement from both of these players to fill an absent #10. It looks kinda total football'esque to me...something that neither Suarez or Meazza had any experience in. I think most Withdrawn/Inside forward roles had more expansive profiles back then than current counterparts. By dint of lack of numbers in central midfield they did tend to drop deeper and orchestrate plays. But what you describe seems to be something out of Michels/Cruyff playbook and not really optimal for the era of the players you have chosen imo.

It still is a cracking team, but I think the dynamics needs to be perfected.
 
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Anyways, here's the Willi Schulz compilation that I promised. @Joga Bonito



I really admire this defensive performance. The man was everywhere and did a great job in sweeping up the Soviet attacks. If he had to face a 1-on-1 battle, he always won it. Whenever a pass would be played beyond the defensive line, he was always around to test the Soviets and hold them back. On the ball, he was also quite skilled. His passing was very good, and he would quite often pick out the attacking players with long, lofted diagonals or zipped ground passes.


Cheers, he really was one of those excellent but rather underrated defender. Germano of Benfica from that era would be another one.
 
Though it fits well on paper, I still find that it practical albeit a bit tenuous. You have a false 9 operating in a Inside Left and a Left midfielder operating in a Inside Right channels to avoid overlaps. Add in a false 9 and the requirement from both of these players to fill an absent #10. It looks kinda total football'esque to me...something that neither Suarez or Meazza had any experience in. I think most Withdrawn/Inside forward roles had more expansive profiles back then than current counterparts. By dint of lack of numbers in central midfield they did tend to drop deeper and orchestrate plays. But what you describe seems to be something out of Michels/Cruyff playbook and not really optimal for the era of the players you have chosen imo.

It still is a cracking team, but I think the dynamics needs to be perfected.

Definitely. The wingers love to cut inside and the full backs love to stay deep and act as playmakers and then Scirea loves pushing in to the midfield and then you have a false-9 as well who does the same. Like you say if there was something like Total Football going on where in theory as one moved out of position, someone else moved in to position then I could see it work. But as it stands it needs some tweaking, like Marzolini out for a full back who provides width but most importantly someone like Ronaldo who can stretch the defense and cause some chaos for the wingers to abuse as they cut inside.