every formation transitions, but from the supporting cast it's closer to a 4-4-2 diamond rather than 4-3-3. You are playing Griezmann as a #10 and with two forwards.
Doubt Rooney and Mbappe are instructed to follow the full backs around are they?
Modern Draft Semifinals: Moby Vs. Enigma/TRV
- Thread starter Indnyc
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Doubt Rooney and Mbappe are instructed to follow the full backs around are they?
I remember how I lost a game once because @Edgar Allan Pillow first decided that my formation (quite similar to yours here with Bergkamp in Griezmann's role) was a 4-3-3 but then changed his mind and said that it's a diamond (and there was a some kind of penalty for playing a diamond, which eventually cost me the game).
Don't know why I'm telling you this though
He has Rooney to contend with? Not that having those two in a 2v2 vs your CBs won't end in a bloodbath and would always require support from your midfield, but even then I cannot see your defense withstanding that attack. Both in terms of style and quality.It's not only Hummels on the pitch mate and Gimenez is our stopper
So Hummels will be 1v1 in front of (or god forbid for your team if he is left behind) vs Mbappe with Rooney and Griezmann occupying the rest of your defense. The pace and acceleration mismatch will cause a fair few chances with Mbappe being through on goal. He has the speed to burn Hummels for 90 minutes.
I have mentioned that for Rooney, anyone who watched him play at his peak would know he would never lose the ball and stay up front. He tracked back and forth the entire pitch every game.
They don't have to follow the fullbacks. You don't need to have man marking instruction for forwards, that's dumb. The whole team is defending back, and the fact that Di Maria and Verratti have Rooney and Griezmann, two workhorses ahead of them, provides them the luxury of splitting wide when needed and winning the ball back out wide.
Mmm given the reduced voting outputs due to the new forum that would generally be a match winning lead. Would be happy to continue the discussions though, although I am completely surprised at the questions at Di Maria and Verratti not being ideal for the wide CM roles.
We have support from our midfield mate and with your full backs against Hazard and Sanchez they will think twice when asked to join the attack.
We have the best defensive minded midfielder on the pitch bar none - Kante. Our CB pair has more cover than yours and isn't as vulnerable on the flanks.
It's not about tracking back tho.
How do you intend to deal with our flanks? The problem is when you play with a strike duo Rooney/Mbappe it's naturally Di Maria and Verratti covering the flanks - not really the ideal role for them and not something I'd see them coping with on consistent basis.
It's way too early mate and it's not that big
I'm here for the discussion.Yet stats show that Saul is performed better in terms of the key defensive attributes?
As I said you look really solid as well and nothing looks off tactically there either. Clearly your strengths are your full-back and winger combos. Di Maria and Verratti both look fine there to me. Di Maria played the best and most influential football of his career in the same LCM role - he has the engine and running power to make it work. On the other side Verratti has the defensive nous and scrapping ability to shuttle and cover that area fine enough. As a 3-man unit it looks well balanced, blending all-round qualities with two players capable in the side-CM roles.
I was just about to call it a 4-3-1-2 to throw more confusion into the mix. Not that it matters, it's pretty clear where the players are and what their jobs are. Quite Atletico-esque and can tilt either way depending on where the ball is. That was one of Atletico's greatest strengths - funneling the ball wide and then pressing as a unit across.I remember how I lost a game once because @Edgar Allan Pillow first decided that my formation (quite similar to yours here with Bergkamp in Griezmann's role) was a 4-3-3 but then changed his mind and said that it's a diamond (and there was a some kind of penalty for playing a diamond, which eventually cost me the game).
Don't know why I'm telling you this though
Completely disagree with that. Di Maria's Madrid peak is tailor made for this team, as is Verratti's peak at PSG. Like I said, I'd cherry pick Di Maria for that role for the entire pool. He's the unique combination of world class ability through the middle in terms of creativity and dribbling, with tireless running and stamina and positional range spanning from the touchline to the centre circle.
Still no answer on how Hummels and Gimenez are coping with Mbappe and Rooney with Griezmann in support?
I'd keep banging on this as there is no answer from the opposition. That trio is supplied with ample amount of creativity from Verratti (one of the top tier creative midfield generals in the world), Di Maria (Madrid's CL winning wizard) and Saul who is a natural at picking a pass with Griezmann linking it all up at the heart of it.
How are you going to stop that creative unit through the middle on the ball in midfield, in terms of numbers itself? How are you containing that strike force and their ability to interchange and hurt you in a million different ways?
I'd keep banging on this as there is no answer from the opposition. That trio is supplied with ample amount of creativity from Verratti (one of the top tier creative midfield generals in the world), Di Maria (Madrid's CL winning wizard) and Saul who is a natural at picking a pass with Griezmann linking it all up at the heart of it.
How are you going to stop that creative unit through the middle on the ball in midfield, in terms of numbers itself? How are you containing that strike force and their ability to interchange and hurt you in a million different ways?
Stats are misleading mate just taken as granted.
You can check Varane's stats from the WC and he'd be nowhere near one of the best CB's of the tournament
And still there is no answer how your full backs will stop our full back/winger combos
We have the better midfield so we're likely to dominate the game.
Your full backs are much more vulnerable than our CB's.
Nah, the beauty of having a modern pool is that we have every single play represented with numbers and metrics. Again, not saying that I'd pick Saul ahead of Kante, but him being ahead of Kante of some of the most key statistics over two entire seasons! is mighty impressive and a huge proof that he'd be absolutely in the thick of it going toe to toe with the rest of them.
Di Maria and Verratti will have to constantly be pulled out wide not to allow us to overload the flanks. That's something I wouldn't really call fine considering their game tho
Have already detailed how my wide CMs are ideal to support the fullbacks out wide and have the evidence of doing so.And still there is no answer how your full backs will stop our full back/winger combos
Do you have evidence of Hummels being faster than Mbappe?
Hummels and Gimenez vs current Mbappe and a prime Rooney is a massive mismatch. It's incredible that it looks a devastating proposition for you BEFORE WE EVEN TALK ABOUT GRIEZMANN! That just shows the high quality of my attack and it's ability to overpower that defense!
I voted Moby to see the score, so please subtract that vote at the end.
I think both sides are absolutely fantastic and the upgrades have been really good, took them to the next level.
The discussion is top notch as well, I really enjoy reading that Great work lads
I think both sides are absolutely fantastic and the upgrades have been really good, took them to the next level.
The discussion is top notch as well, I really enjoy reading that
Great work ladsCheers.
playing in some sort of a diamond and continuously facing the full backs out wide. I'd love to see a game where Verratti and di Maria constantly do that
The CB doesn't have to be faster to deal with Mbappe otherwise Mbappe would have scored every match, but in reality it's not like that.Do you have evidence of Hummels being faster than Mbappe?
Hummels and Gimenez vs current Mbappe and a prime Rooney is a massive mismatch. It's incredible that it looks a devastating proposition for you BEFORE WE EVEN TALK ABOUT GRIEZMANN! That just shows the high quality of my attack and it's ability to overpower that defense!
I love how you are bigging up Mbappe, but in reality it's too early for him to be an all timer considering he has scored 60 goals so far at top level and that is in France.
Don't really get your point about Di Maria to be honest. He was outstanding for Real Madrid doing the same thing with lazy-arse Cristiano 'defending the left flank' ahead of him.Di Maria and Verratti will have to constantly be pulled out wide not to allow us to overload the flanks. That's something I wouldn't really call fine considering their game tho
As long as they were defending out wide, what difference does it make?
I'm not playing a diamond either, doesn't matter how many times you misquote my OP.
Didn't you also mentioned that it was Coentrao who started a lot of tough games ahead of Marcelo just because that? They also had Khedira sitting unlike Saul who is more apt for a box to box role.
Kroos and Kante will most likely dominate the midfield it's not like Moby's midfield won't struggle against them and also our flanks.
The shape doesn't really matter in this case mate.
Either way it would be Di Maria and Verratti defending those flanks. Your full backs IMO also aren't really on the level required for a SF and there comes our main strength, especially considering who they are up against.
That's even not mentioning James having space in the middle and his long shots that can come in handy when your midfielders are pulled wide.
Wouldn't bet on that. Kante suits a fast paced midfield rather than one that dominates possession, as shown by his current nosedive in form in Sarri's possession system. You won't be keeping a lot of the ball there, especially with the hound mentality of those 5 players in Saul, Di Maria, Verratti, Griezmann and Rooney who will win the ball back with incredibly high frequency.
Only team capable of keeping possession is mine, given the technical prowess and ball retention ability of every single midfielder in there. Verratti can control the tempo of the game and that mouthwatering front trio will definitely see more of the ball in this game.
Neither of those you mentioned played in a typical possession system mate come on
Especially the Atletico guys.
You have Grieamann and Saul both striving in typical Lait back approach and Verratti and do Maria at their best played in direct sides.
Also Saul as a holder did he ever played there really in such a role?
I am not considering a tiki taka approach here, but none of those midfielders are technically limited such as Kante, who is fairly limited on the ball and wouldn't be ideal if you want to circulate it for a while. He excelled in Leicester (I lived few yards from the stadium where he won the PLNeither of those you mentioned played in a typical possession system mate come on
Especially the Atletico guys.
You have Grieamann and Saul both striving in typical Lait back approach and Verratti and do Maria at their best played in direct sides.
Also Saul as a holder did he ever played there really in such a role?
) as an all action DM who could release counters. But that midfield would never pin a team back.My midfielders on the other hand can pin your team back if needed. However I will have my team rather constantly go direct at your soft defense and try to expose it all the time. The phenomenal tracking back and energy of my team allows me to lose possession more than some other teams as it will win it back often and all my forwards will thrive in a back and forth with chances coming their way often.
As for the last line, I have literally referenced it in the OP.
Lewa flopped big time against Madrid last year missing sitter after sitter, imo he's a flat track bully and he's not really any better than Higuain.Yes, this is when they met and Lewa scored 4 past Pepe/Varane pair. To be fair Varane was early bloomer as well. We're yet to see how and whether he'll take it to a next level, but we can judge him indeed in the time he has played so far and he was pretty solid in 12/13 as well and already international.
It's not like he isn't one of the best defenders in the pool, but Lewa goalscoring record is phenomenal against pretty much every defender in the pool and with that service he's bound to finish off most of the chances.
You have plenty of examples of Cristiano and Messi missing in some big games yet you wouldn't call them flops now do you
Lewa scored 12 times against Dortmund in 15 games if we consider them as the biggest rival in Germany. Not exactly a flat track bully.
Only handful have scored more than 53 goals in Europe like him as well, his goal scoring ratio is also pretty good.
You have been selling Di Maria being at his best in more attacking role and starting as a left winger. Now he's a workhorse in a 4-3-3 - side of a diamond 4-4-2I am not considering a tiki taka approach here, but none of those midfielders are technically limited such as Kante, who is fairly limited on the ball and wouldn't be ideal if you want to circulate it for a while. He excelled in Leicester (I lived few yards from the stadium where he won the PL
My midfielders on the other hand can pin your team back if needed. However I will have my team rather constantly go direct at your soft defense and try to expose it all the time. The phenomenal tracking back and energy of my team allows me to lose possession more than some other teams as it will win it back often and all my forwards will thrive in a back and forth with chances coming their way often.
As for the last line, I have literally referenced it in the OP.
It's good to have the best of both worlds but... I know trying to sell Kante as a donkey would be in your interest but come on mate
half of your midfield (Griezmann/Saul) are at home in deep defensive line and counter attacking and now you'll strive for possession. We aren't playing tiki taka either but Kroos/Kante is definitely an upgrade to your midfield whatever you put it I think we can both agree on that?
What? Literally both the threads had long discussions on how I likened Di Maria with a hybrid role where his work coming inside towards the middle would be vital. I wouldn't waste such a multi-faceted and versatile player in a one dimensional role. Both his incarnations involve him multi-tasking, something that he displayed at the highest level and what sets him apart.You have been selling Di Maria being at his best in more attacking role and starting as a left winger. Now he's a workhorse in a 4-3-3 - side of a diamond 4-4-2
We have seen him fail at United quite spectacularly tho. Sure it has much to do with LvG but in reality his PSG role and his Real role is a lot different.
He's versatile no doubt, but he'll have a lot of defensive multitasking to do here and restricting his attacking game which is his focal point.
With our flanks and Zabaleta/ Asamoah full backs - neither being top quality or really comparable cope with Sanchez/Hazard flanks aided by two excellent full backs they will have their hands full with defensive duties.
And it's not like Hazard and Sanchez won't hound your defenders and midfielders either, we've seen that many times.
I'd really have to say this again despite repeating it a few times, but it would be really good if you could stop misleading the thread readers with irrelevant references. Di Maria at United has nothing to do with what I am using him for or what he earned a man of the match award in a Champions League final for.
It's been 3rd or 4th time already including GIFs and what not!
It's not my aim to mislead anyone mate and it's not like I've posted some stats calling Saul the best defensive midfielder on the pitch (or on Kante's level or something)
Where have I called Saul the best defensive midfielder on the pitch?It's not my aim to mislead anyone mate and it's not like I've posted some stats calling Saul the best defensive midfielder on the pitch (or on Kante's level or something)
Well I've said that Kante is the best defensive player on the pitch in midfield.
Your response was this:
So you might need to clarify that then?
Eh. Read the post you quoted. You spoke about Saul not being able to play as a defensive midfielder, which is contradicted both by his stats and performance reports where he is actually appreciated for his ability to play at the base and act as the defensive shield. He has insane tenacity and intensity in his play and those stats show he is excellent in terms of defensive technique. Literally in my own OP I have referenced to Kante is a quality defensive midfielder, hence the benchmark to which Saul matches up really well in terms of stats.
Especially when he's supported with the amount of legs, energy and a world class CB duo behind him, there should be little to no issue in him performing to the best of his abilities for this role.
I don't really get the comparison in terms of stats tho?
Saul is not a DM or ever played in the anchor type you are implying.
The stat comparison is irrelevant as Saul plays for Atletico who sit deep and will most likely make much more tackles and interceptions.
Comparing Saul's defensive game to Kante's like that is misleading because there are a lot of variables into play.
For example this is Varane's stats:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/93206/History/Raphael-Varane
He rarely goes past 1 tackle per game for Real in La Liga and 1.2 or 3 interceptions.
Here are Gimenez's stats:
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/135914/History/José-Giménez
Does that mean that he's twice as good?
Difference is Messi and Ronaldo have done it in finals and led their teams to the CL. Apart for his 5 goals against Madrid i can't remember many memorable goals he's scored in big games. Filling your boots in Germany for the two strongest teams and winning domestic titles isn't really a major feat. He's a good striker nothing special.You have plenty of examples of Cristiano and Messi missing in some big games yet you wouldn't call them flops now do you
Lewa scored 12 times against Dortmund in 15 games if we consider them as the biggest rival in Germany. Not exactly a flat track bully.
Only handful have scored more than 53 goals in Europe like him as well, his goal scoring ratio is also pretty good.
He has stats that outnumber your premier ball winner in midfield globally known for his defensive prowess, so how can you question his defensive ability?