Moise Kean | Everton player

Sauldogba

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Italians are most racist (or racially insensitive) culture I've ever come across and I've traveled to every major continent. The only thing that somewhat insulated me from receiving the abuse and treatment of other black people (namely Africans) is my passport and accent. Otherwise, on first look I was treated with suspicion nearly everywhere I went. Absolutely lovely country but pretty much the only country where I felt uncomfortable in a negative way. I will say the young ones aren't nearly as bad as the older Italians.
Genuine question what makes you say that?
What type of racism have you seen or experienced from Italians?
 

giorno

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All he did was stand in front of them. I'm failing to see what's wrong with that.
We take football waaay too seriously. It's such a huge part of our culture that must be preserved and defended at any and all costs. It's our religion, perhaps even more so than catholicism. Silvio Berlusconi's entire reason for buying Milan was to use it as a political tool. Look how well it worked

And yes, it is generally considered a provocation to celebrate in any way right under the opposing team's ultras, and even more so to do so pointedly, as Kean did
 

Red00012

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If he changed the spelling of his name to “Mossie Keane” , he could declare for Ireland.
 

Sayros

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Well it’s not obvious seeing as though only last week there was lots of reports involving the England team and then also Chelsea playing D.Kyiev.

Also wasn’t it only this year when the Chelsea fans were caught on camera hurling racist abuse at Stamford Bridge?

But yeah your right it’s just my misunderstanding and clearly me whose misinterpreted your post....

The problem with your original post is you made some really nice points and views but it meant feck all when you started it with that idiotic and false statement. It’s fine you judge and believe what you want but it’s hypocrisy at is finest.
But again, you misunderstood my point from the get-go because you saw red as soon as you thought I claimed there's only racism in Italy. You know, I live in the USA....I'm plenty versed on racism. I also have Italian roots, so I'm not condemning the country of Italy. But while you can always recall a few ugly moments in other leagues, you must admit that it's nowhere near as prevalent as in Serie A. There are incidents in the other major leagues, but it's far more limited in scope and in engagements from the crowd, usually just a few idiots. However, in Serie A and, to a far lesser extent, in La Liga at times, you have major sections of the crowd that will engage in racist behavior.

I appreciate that you thought my post had some nice points, and I'm sorry I made you feel I was condemning Italy as a racist country. I think it has a lot of it, but then again there's plenty of other countries that are far worse. This is a football forum, so my point was entirely based on the football league, not the nation as a whole.
 

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Genuine question what makes you say that?
What type of racism have you seen or experienced from Italians?
I'd be happy to share. This was 2 years ago I was in Lugano with a friend and wanted to travel to Milan, Turin, and Venice since I had never been to Italy. I had 4 incidents happen to me in 5 days.

1) At the first Italian city I arrive at crossing over the Swiss-Italian border on route to Milan (I don't remember of the city) I am awakened by Italian police on the train. At first this seemed pretty normal as in Switzerland attended usually check your tickets. There were 2 policeman. The first one asks me for my train ticket. Given he just woke me up, I start you search around for my passport and train ticket. While this is happening, the second policeman looks at my backpack (which is in a seat in between them and me) and become suspicious over a small bottle of attached to it. He starts motioning to other officer and I sorta chuckle b/c it was only hand sanitizer. The moment the first officer hears me chuckle, he gets agitated and starts forcefully telling me to produce my passport and train ticket immediately. The second he saw my nationality on my passport, the agitated look is wiped off his face, he hands me my passport and leaves. This can happen to anyone, but I watched them walk through 2 cabins without checking anyone's train ticket except for one other person: another black guy.

2) Fast forward a bit to when I'm leaving Italy 5 days later. The pretty much the same thing happens in the same city as I'm about to cross the border to Switzerland. This time I'm not sleeping and I see the police officers outside, so I'm ready for it. The officers were actually polite but I simply ignored their request for my train ticket and just showed my passport and they quickly went on their way: again I was the only person who was asked to produce their ticket (contrasting these experiences to a place say like Swtizerland where everyone is checked regardless of skin color)

3) I'm in Milan in a place called Navigili or something of the sort. There is a river running through it with shops and restaurants on either side. I look for the restaurant witht he least amount of tourists and sit down to eat. There was a British or Australian couple sitting close to me so I wasn't the only foreigner. To make a long story short, the waiter is just plain rude. It's clear to me that I'm the least of his concerns. I had to go inside to ask for water and the check. He only comes to my table three times: for my order, to bring the food, and to take my card haha. Everyone around me is getting the treatment you expect. I hand him my card and he asks to see my ID. I hand him my passport and his demeanor changes. He tries to talk to me a little but I just sign and leave.

4) I'm in a bar near the place above. It's about 8pm. I sit down at the bar and start talking to the bartender who I realize used to like in the US, so his english is good. The conversation is pleasant. I order a drink and attempt to pay but he tells me just to pay when I am about to leave. I'm fine with it and by my observation this is a common thing at this bar. A waitress brings me a drink. While at the bar I strike up a conversation with a lady who speaks really good English and I am invited to the small porch to meet her friends (it's a small bar and the porch is probably no more than 10 meters away). 10 minutes later (with drink still in hand) the same waitress who gave me the drink starts asking me something in Italian motioning towards my drink. Of course I can't understand, but the lady I'm talking with informs me she wants to know if I paid for my drink. I'm pretty confused and try to explain I have a tab open. She doesn't understand and keeps motioning to my drink. I walk inside and spot the bartender I'm was talking to. I explain the situation and he instantly looks embarrassed. I guess he tells her not to worry in Italian, and he apologizes and tells me she was confused, but I hand him my card and tell him just to close out. Before I leave I talk with the lady from earlier and she tells me that they always pay after they are finished b/c the tab is kept up front. I didn't notice anyone else who was asked to pay on the spot.

I have other soft accounts and things I've heard from Italians and blacks (especially Africans living in Italy), but I can only go off my experiences that seemed like obvious signs of racial profiling. With that said, I'm not saying and never said all Italians are the racists (or even most of them) and met some pretty helpful and easy-going Italians, but it doesn't change the fact that those 4 instances in 5 days (along with the other soft accounts) has never happened to me in another country.

Lastly, there is a difference between genuine curiosity in seeing a person of an unfamiliar race (for example in Turkey a guy stopped me to take a picture with his family, in Mexico City and man stopped me to take a picture with his daughter, and in Argentina a little girl said in surprise to her mother "Look Mom, he's black!" haha) and someone treating a different race with disdain and suspicion.

P.S. - There are actually countries that treat foreigners of a different race better than people of their race, but it's for different reasons.
 

Tostao_80

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I'd be happy to share. This was 2 years ago I was in Lugano with a friend and wanted to travel to Milan, Turin, and Venice since I had never been to Italy. I had 4 incidents happen to me in 5 days.

1) At the first Italian city I arrive at crossing over the Swiss-Italian border on route to Milan (I don't remember of the city) I am awakened by Italian police on the train. At first this seemed pretty normal as in Switzerland attended usually check your tickets. There were 2 policeman. The first one asks me for my train ticket. Given he just woke me up, I start you search around for my passport and train ticket. While this is happening, the second policeman looks at my backpack (which is in a seat in between them and me) and become suspicious over a small bottle of attached to it. He starts motioning to other officer and I sorta chuckle b/c it was only hand sanitizer. The moment the first officer hears me chuckle, he gets agitated and starts forcefully telling me to produce my passport and train ticket immediately. The second he saw my nationality on my passport, the agitated look is wiped off his face, he hands me my passport and leaves. This can happen to anyone, but I watched them walk through 2 cabins without checking anyone's train ticket except for one other person: another black guy.

2) Fast forward a bit to when I'm leaving Italy 5 days later. The pretty much the same thing happens in the same city as I'm about to cross the border to Switzerland. This time I'm not sleeping and I see the police officers outside, so I'm ready for it. The officers were actually polite but I simply ignored their request for my train ticket and just showed my passport and they quickly went on their way: again I was the only person who was asked to produce their ticket (contrasting these experiences to a place say like Swtizerland where everyone is checked regardless of skin color)

3) I'm in Milan in a place called Navigili or something of the sort. There is a river running through it with shops and restaurants on either side. I look for the restaurant witht he least amount of tourists and sit down to eat. There was a British or Australian couple sitting close to me so I wasn't the only foreigner. To make a long story short, the waiter is just plain rude. It's clear to me that I'm the least of his concerns. I had to go inside to ask for water and the check. He only comes to my table three times: for my order, to bring the food, and to take my card haha. Everyone around me is getting the treatment you expect. I hand him my card and he asks to see my ID. I hand him my passport and his demeanor changes. He tries to talk to me a little but I just sign and leave.

4) I'm in a bar near the place above. It's about 8pm. I sit down at the bar and start talking to the bartender who I realize used to like in the US, so his english is good. The conversation is pleasant. I order a drink and attempt to pay but he tells me just to pay when I am about to leave. I'm fine with it and by my observation this is a common thing at this bar. A waitress brings me a drink. While at the bar I strike up a conversation with a lady who speaks really good English and I am invited to the small porch to meet her friends (it's a small bar and the porch is probably no more than 10 meters away). 10 minutes later (with drink still in hand) the same waitress who gave me the drink starts asking me something in Italian motioning towards my drink. Of course I can't understand, but the lady I'm talking with informs me she wants to know if I paid for my drink. I'm pretty confused and try to explain I have a tab open. She doesn't understand and keeps motioning to my drink. I walk inside and spot the bartender I'm was talking to. I explain the situation and he instantly looks embarrassed. I guess he tells her not to worry in Italian, and he apologizes and tells me she was confused, but I hand him my card and tell him just to close out. Before I leave I talk with the lady from earlier and she tells me that they always pay after they are finished b/c the tab is kept up front. I didn't notice anyone else who was asked to pay on the spot.

I have other soft accounts and things I've heard from Italians and blacks (especially Africans living in Italy), but I can only go off my experiences that seemed like obvious signs of racial profiling. With that said, I'm not saying and never said all Italians are the racists (or even most of them) and met some pretty helpful and easy-going Italians, but it doesn't change the fact that those 4 instances in 5 days (along with the other soft accounts) has never happened to me in another country.

Lastly, there is a difference between genuine curiosity in seeing a person of an unfamiliar race (for example in Turkey a guy stopped me to take a picture with his family, in Mexico City and man stopped me to take a picture with his daughter, and in Argentina a little girl said in surprise to her mother "Look Mom, he's black!" haha) and someone treating a different race with disdain and suspicion.

P.S. - There are actually countries that treat foreigners of a different race better than people of their race, but it's for different reasons.
Sorry for your experiences, but unfortunately, a few on here (we know who they are by now) will try and undermine what youve just said, and try and explain it away (and offer an alternative explanation)
Its not really racism, maybe they thought .........
 

villain

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We take football waaay too seriously. It's such a huge part of our culture that must be preserved and defended at any and all costs. It's our religion, perhaps even more so than catholicism. Silvio Berlusconi's entire reason for buying Milan was to use it as a political tool. Look how well it worked

And yes, it is generally considered a provocation to celebrate in any way right under the opposing team's ultras, and even more so to do so pointedly, as Kean did
If standing in front of ultras is considered a provocation - then doing anything after scoring a goal is considered provocation, except ignoring them, right?

However, ignoring them then means that the issue of racism gets brushed under the rug, and the victim has to deal with it in silence.

Out of every possible thing he could've done in that situation, i'm failing to see what was a better reaction than the one he gave.
 

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Wow “fake outrage” what are you talking about? So strange.
I'm talking about your emotional response:
Wow the level of hostility here is unreal. Now being told we are the “most racist” culture from Phileas Fogg over here who’s been all over the world. What bollocks.
There’s horrible racists and all kinds of evil people who victimise and treat people poorly due to their ethnicity, religion etc all over the world. But to make that statement is excessive and insulting. Not wasting my time on this bullshit any longer.
If that is real outrage then your reading comprehension is poor.

And yeah to react in such a way when you completely isolate one country and say it’s “the most racist culture” you’ve experienced and to say that in a public forum and expect no backlash just shows your thought process.
I can’t waste my time with you as clearly we don’t see eye to eye.
It's not a thought process, it is statement based on my experiences. A more mature way to handle it would be to ask me about my experiences rather than throw out accusations of hostility and insults.

I’m deeply sorry for any racism you may have received in Italy as of course it’s disgusting but to condem the whole country is wrong in my opinion.
Anyway it is what it is. I hope to have a better discussion with you on a different topic in the future.
You aren't sorry and luckily I don't need or want your sympathy. I didn't condemn Italy as I said it was a lovely country and I didn't feel the same sentiment around younger Italians, but of course you chose to ignore that.
 

Irrational.

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Bonucci statement

Dopo 24 ore desidero chiarire il mio pensiero. Ieri sera ho parlato alla fine della partita e mi sono espresso in modo evidentemente troppo sbrigativo, che è stato male interpretato su un argomento per il quale non basterebbero ore e per il quale si lotta da anni. Condanno ogni forma di razzismo e discriminazione. Certi atteggiamenti sono sempre ingiustificabili e su questo non ci possono essere fraintendimenti. // After 24 hours I want to clarify my feelings. Yesterday I was interviewed right at the end of the game, and my words have been clearly misunderstood, probably because I was too hasty in the way I expressed my thoughts. Hours and years wouldn't be enough to talk about this topic. I firmly condemn all forms of racism and discrimination. The abuses are not acceptable at all and this must not be misunderstood.
Yeah just make a generic statement Leo, that'll make things better.

Sometimes it's better just to shut up.
 

MackRobinson

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Sorry for your experiences, but unfortunately, a few on here (we know who they are by now) will try and undermine what youve just said, and try and explain it away (and offer an alternative explanation)
Its not really racism, maybe they thought .........
Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on who you ask) I just accept racism as a fact of life. For me, it's better to leave it alone if it's not clear disrespect in public forum. I'm usually one of the largest, darkest people wherever I go and I enjoy experiencing other cultures so I have to be very careful in my responses to perceived racism. Thankfully I have a demeanor, passport and accent where I should be fine in most countries.
 

giorno

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1) At the first Italian city I arrive at crossing over the Swiss-Italian border on route to Milan (I don't remember of the city) I am awakened by Italian police on the train. At first this seemed pretty normal as in Switzerland attended usually check your tickets. There were 2 policeman. The first one asks me for my train ticket. Given he just woke me up, I start you search around for my passport and train ticket. While this is happening, the second policeman looks at my backpack (which is in a seat in between them and me) and become suspicious over a small bottle of attached to it. He starts motioning to other officer and I sorta chuckle b/c it was only hand sanitizer. The moment the first officer hears me chuckle, he gets agitated and starts forcefully telling me to produce my passport and train ticket immediately. The second he saw my nationality on my passport, the agitated look is wiped off his face, he hands me my passport and leaves. This can happen to anyone, but I watched them walk through 2 cabins without checking anyone's train ticket except for one other person: another black guy.

2) Fast forward a bit to when I'm leaving Italy 5 days later. The pretty much the same thing happens in the same city as I'm about to cross the border to Switzerland. This time I'm not sleeping and I see the police officers outside, so I'm ready for it. The officers were actually polite but I simply ignored their request for my train ticket and just showed my passport and they quickly went on their way: again I was the only person who was asked to produce their ticket (contrasting these experiences to a place say like Swtizerland where everyone is checked regardless of skin color)
Ah, on this specifically i can kind of relate. I've gone through similar things a few times myself, always here in Italy too, on account that i can easily pass for north african or middle eastern at a glance(then again, so can a lot of italians for that matter. And the other way around). One time i almost got arrested because i was in a mood and initially refused to show my ID and got rude. Luckily another officer showed up and i calmed down in time to defuse the situation before it could get bad

Also, it's funny that the few times i was stopped that were actually motivated and a thorough check would have gotten me into trouble they never bothered after seeing the ID :D

3) I'm in Milan in a place called Navigili or something of the sort.
Navigli. It's the name of the network of rivers of Milan. The one you're talking about is probably the Naviglio Grande, which is the main one above ground(most are completely underground now). That neighborhood is gorgeous. It's one of the main centers of the city's nightlife

But yeah. Again, i'm not surprised showing an american ID got people to back off you. As is often the case, the issue of racism over here is strongly intertwined with classism, lack of knowledge/understanding, and hard living conditions throughout the country for the lower classes
 

giorno

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If standing in front of ultras is considered a provocation - then doing anything after scoring a goal is considered provocation, except ignoring them, right?
Specifically going to celebrate right under the ultras, and especially staring in their direction, is seen as provocation

However, ignoring them then means that the issue of racism gets brushed under the rug, and the victim has to deal with it in silence.
Unfortunately correct

Out of every possible thing he could've done in that situation, i'm failing to see what was a better reaction than the one he gave.
I'm not saying he was wrong. It is what it is. Kean reacted in the way he thought appropriate and i find nothing wrong with it myself. But a lot of people do, and while i don't really understand the why(and i've tried, but speaking to walls sapped my energy for it), i know what the motivations are.(and sure, racism is also part of it of course in this case). It is however jarring how tone deaf even many pros and former pros appear to be when it comes to racism

Thankfully it's a situation that's bound to change for the better once the older generations are finally phased out and the younger ones take power(not necessarily to the point of no longer being an issue, but then again countries that have actually dealt with multi-racial composition of their population for a century still have problems. We've only just began becoming multi-ethnic)
 
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GioF

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I'm talking about your emotional response:

If that is real outrage then your reading comprehension is poor.


It's not a thought process, it is statement based on my experiences. A more mature way to handle it would be to ask me about my experiences rather than throw out accusations of hostility and insults.


You aren't sorry and luckily I don't need or want your sympathy. I didn't condemn Italy as I said it was a lovely country and I didn't feel the same sentiment around younger Italians, but of course you chose to ignore that.
This conversation is over mate don’t bother messaging me again. You’ve made your stand and said your piece so just leave it at that.

We disagree on ‘the reaction’ to the posts but not the general basis of the topic which is a good thing.

You feel a certain way towards a country for circumstances that you’ve faced and feel it necessary to condem them for what you’ve gone through. That’s something I don’t like and I have the right to call you out on that.

I just hope you aren’t likeminded similar to the scumbags who racially abused Moise Kean the other night if you happen to meet an Italian who actually hates racism in all forms (yes we do exist) just because you had the mispleasure of some idiots when you visited Italy.

Anyway it’s done with now. Peace
 

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But again, you misunderstood my point from the get-go because you saw red as soon as you thought I claimed there's only racism in Italy. You know, I live in the USA....I'm plenty versed on racism. I also have Italian roots, so I'm not condemning the country of Italy. But while you can always recall a few ugly moments in other leagues, you must admit that it's nowhere near as prevalent as in Serie A. There are incidents in the other major leagues, but it's far more limited in scope and in engagements from the crowd, usually just a few idiots. However, in Serie A and, to a far lesser extent, in La Liga at times, you have major sections of the crowd that will engage in racist behavior.

I appreciate that you thought my post had some nice points, and I'm sorry I made you feel I was condemning Italy as a racist country. I think it has a lot of it, but then again there's plenty of other countries that are far worse. This is a football forum, so my point was entirely based on the football league, not the nation as a whole.
It’s all good brother. Yes I did feel angered and saddened that because of a few scumbags (unfortunately every town/city in the world has them) that the whole Country was being blamed.
Like I said you made very good points all of which I agree so it’s all good.
 

giorno

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It’s all good brother. Yes I did feel angered and saddened that because of a few scumbags (unfortunately every town/city in the world has them) that the whole Country was being blamed.
Like I said you made very good points all of which I agree so it’s all good.
Man, Salvini is in power. They are not the majority, but they're at least a significant minority. And a growing one at that. While the rest of us have become too apathetic to care. Those that weren't always apathetic in the first place. I mean, we haven't taken politics seriously since the end of the first republic...
 

GioF

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Man, Salvini is in power. They are not the majority, but they're at least a significant minority. And a growing one at that. While the rest of us have become too apathetic to care. Those that weren't always apathetic in the first place. I mean, we haven't taken politics seriously since the end of the first republic...
Not sure I get the point of your post can you be more specific please?
 

giorno

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Not sure I get the point of your post can you be more specific please?
You keep talking about bad generalizations based on the actions of "a few scumbags". Well, those few scumbags aren't actually just a few people otherwise Salvini would not be in power, racism is a huge, pervasive problem in our country right now and not limited to just a few animals.

We're not all racist, obviously, the majority of us probably aren't, or at least not consciously/maliciously so. That said, rare is the week that goes by without me having to either witness or hear of incidents of racism, and i've yet to meet a poc who is comfortable in the current climate. With good reason. Hence i find it very easy to understand where @MackRobinson is coming from, speaking from his own experience
 

MackRobinson

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But yeah. Again, i'm not surprised showing an american ID got people to back off you. As is often the case, the issue of racism over here is strongly intertwined with classism, lack of knowledge/understanding, and hard living conditions throughout the country for the lower classes
I figured it was also an issue with class. One thing I noticed was there were very few, "professional looking" (I hate that term) dark skinned people. They were all street vendors or teenagers loitering in the train stations. Sometimes they looked at me with curiosity and it was a bit weird but not unexpected (the same thing happens to me in Nigeria, they can instantly tell a Westerner regardless of color and white Westerners are treated with more respect).

As an aside, the lady I talked to at the bar in Navigli made a comment while we were on the porch that I know she meant as a compliment, but I didn't really appreciate. I told her about getting stopped at the border on my arrival and she made a comment that I shouldn't worry b/c I looked "different" than the other dark skinned people in Italy and I shouldn't have many issues. Again I understand the intent of her remark, but it was quite odd for someone to essentially admit dark skinned people perceived to be in a lower class are treated as such. She was good company and meant to ill so I didn't feel the need to correct her.

With all that said, Italy is a very, very beautiful country (Turin is a underrated European city IMO) and I would go back again despite some of my experiences.
 

TrueRomanista

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We may have a racism problem in Italy but Cagliari and Bergamo are shitty places for black or souther italy people
 

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There's an excellent piece with Danny Rose in the Guardian today. As he says, the way Uefa and Fifa deal with racist abuse is disgusting.

The next time this shit happens, the entire team should just walk off the pitch. End off.

Was thinking what it must be like to be in the crowd when people are chanting and making monkey noises. How do you stop them if they're in the majority?
 

JohnnyKills

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If standing in front of ultras is considered a provocation - then doing anything after scoring a goal is considered provocation, except ignoring them, right?

However, ignoring them then means that the issue of racism gets brushed under the rug, and the victim has to deal with it in silence.

Out of every possible thing he could've done in that situation, i'm failing to see what was a better reaction than the one he gave.
Yeah it was brilliant. He was a lot more mature and level-headed than I would be, that's for sure.
 

Inigo Montoya

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There's an excellent piece with Danny Rose in the Guardian today. As he says, the way Uefa and Fifa deal with racist abuse is disgusting.

The next time this shit happens, the entire team should just walk off the pitch. End off.

Was thinking what it must be like to be in the crowd when people are chanting and making monkey noises. How do you stop them if they're in the majority?
He's basically saying that he can't wait to be done with football.

Sadly if he walks away, racism is still going to be around. The racists don't give a shit
 

giorno

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We may have a racism problem in Italy but Cagliari and Bergamo are shitty places for black or souther italy people
Bergamo's gotten a lot better recently. Varese, Brescia, Verona(:lol::lol::lol:), Venice on the other hand...

Buuut! We also are starting to get good stories like Gioia Tauro -once little more than one of the major european cocaine ports, now a town in strong economic and social growth because instead of marginalizing the immigrants they took steps to integrate them into the community and unsurprisingly they turned into highly productive members of the community
 

Sauldogba

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Hes sick.
Hes the type of player we should break the bank for.
Snap him up quick.
 
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the_irish123

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What's so special about the goals he's scoring? More like he plays in a great team and he's not as awful as Manduzkic.
 

TheScriptwriter

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What's so special about the goals he's scoring? More like he plays in a great team and he's not as awful as Manduzkic.
The goals doesn't always have to be special. Some of his goals involve good movement and some are just good finishes and composure in front of goal. He is 19 after all.
 
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That is a quite staggering response. Like the relevance to the game is what matters here.
 

Rob

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The excuse is staggering.
:lol: “Yes, our fans did beat up an entire section of kids and their parents, but it had limited relevance to the game”.