Fair enough. I didn’t mean specifically you. I enjoy reading your insight generally. And honestly Caicedo hasn’t been particularly bad. He just hasn’t been particularly impressive either, which is what you’d expect for a £115m signing. But he’s young and thrown into a dysfunctional circus clown show of a club. I don’t blame him for finding it tough to find his feet.
Moises Caicedo | Chelsea player
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He was an extremely hot topic here and perhaps the second most coveted player after Kane, so it will stand to reason that he will be observed through a different lens than most players who went elsewhere in the summer. For me, I generally prefer not to watch, but am still surprised by how things sound like they’ve gone thus far.
Yeah that’s fair enough to be honest. I hope he finds his feet soon, but honestly speaking, I don’t see a way for this club. Too much money spent too quickly. Too much upheaval. We’re on our 4th manager in 18 months and almost all the new signings have looked underwhelming despite showing great potential at their previous clubs. We’re in the bottom half with no obvious path to fix this shit apart keep trying and hopefully Poch figures it out.
Hopefully the market will stop overrating that sort of player, there was a time when record fees used to go to players who could open a game up or decide a game like nobody else could, not watercarriers. I'm sure he'll be fine in the end, but he was never worth anywhere near that kind of money.
I found him incredibly underwhelming last night, often late into challenges, poor positionally, mediocre on the ball... Didn't even seem to bring much energy into the midfield, which is what he was famed for.
Growing pains or was he just a very efficient cog in a well oiled machine? Or a bit of both?
Growing pains or was he just a very efficient cog in a well oiled machine? Or a bit of both?
It's kinda wild how two people can watch the same game and come away with wildly different perspectives. I thought he was Chelsea's best player by a mile. I haven't checked any stats because, you know, feck that game, I'm fuming, but I'm pretty sure he won possession back over 20 times in the second half alone, and a lot of them were very timely as Boro were about to launch a potentially dangerous counter and it allowed us to keep them penned in.
There are a hell of a lot of players who are system players. They look great in the right system or they simply look great in a team that is functional but take them out of that and they are bang average. United have bought many of these players over the past decade and then wonder why they don't replicate their form in our mess of a team. When your team works well, everyones job is easier and your mistakes are usually not as serious or important. When you are in a struggling team, your one mistake costs your team the game and when that team is a huge one like Chelsea, people notice and are harsh on you.
Its part of the reason City have been so successful with many of their signings. They pick the right players but those players are always coming into a well oiled machine that dominates games. I can't think of many players that City have bought that have looked bad. They might be OK or just passable but they almost never look crap.
Its part of the reason City have been so successful with many of their signings. They pick the right players but those players are always coming into a well oiled machine that dominates games. I can't think of many players that City have bought that have looked bad. They might be OK or just passable but they almost never look crap.
Yeah I think this is a more realistic take from last night. He did have a few clumsy tackles in the first half that resulted in fouls (and this occasional clumsiness been his main problem throughout the season IMO) but other than the goalkeeper who hardly had anything to do all game Caicedo would probably be the last player of our lot I'd blame for last night's loss.
That said he's definitely not playing at the same level as the Brighton version last season though and it's evident from the stats alone:
- Tackles 2,1 Chelsea / 2,7 for Brighton
- Interceptions 0,8 Chelsea / 1,5 Brighton
- Shots on goal 0,4 Chelsea / 0,8 Brighton
- Key passes 0,5 Chelsea / 1,2 Brighton
Every stat is PL season average per 90 minutes so adjusted to playing time he's contributing less in attack but also less in defense too. In fact there's probably not a single category where he's reaching the same numbers as he did last season for Brighton. He's not been half as bad as many are making him out but he's not stood out positively either.
Yeah I think @Rooney in Paris description of him is actually pretty fair in general this season, though I think he's been improving as the season as gone on.
I think a lot of his stats on average are being dragged down by his very very underwhelming start to the season. I wonder what his averages are in those categories you mentioned but filtered for just like the last 10 games or so. I'd hope it would reflect the improvement I've noticed.
Lucky for him he is wearing a Chelsea shirt so nobody cares about him...but for his price tag you'd expect a bit more than just a water carrier.
He’s been garbage since moving to Chelsea. Cost an insane amount of money as well. Won’t write him off just yet though as Bissouma was also shite for Spurs in the beginning when he first moved from Brighton.
Amazing considering the cost that his performances have gone way under the radar from the media compared to the likes of pogba, sancho and Fred who were dealt more criticism as big money flops than him.
Fewer people are interested in Chelsea so they get less media coverage, good or bad.
Shocking revelation, I know.
There’s a very simple reason for that, they all put on a Utd shirt whereas Caicedo didn’t. Had we signed him for that sort of money and he was serving up that crap he and the club would be getting slaughtered on a weekly basis by the media.
I have no idea how you saw that. He has 5 tackles and 1 interception in the whole game, so...
Tbh I thought the whole team was incredibly poor, that he wasn't the worst isn't exactly a glowing review of his performance, and in any case it was more a general observation and a question about his time at Chelsea. Him and Enzo looked completely lost in midfield.
I'm shocked that it's so little and makes me question what gets registered as a tackle and an interception, because Caicedo felt like singlehandedly holding that midfield together.
But yeah, I mentioned you in a subsequent post because on reflection your assession is actually very fair.
I'm surprised - I really, really didn't feel it that way, and in the matchday thread it didn't seem like anyone else did. And just for the record, I have nothing against Caicedo, I'm genuinely curious about his progress and development.
The same stat categories calculated just for Caicedo's last 10 EPL starts:
--> Tackles 2,4 / 90min
--> Interceptions 1,2 / 90min
--> Shots on goal 0,3 / 90min
--> Key passes 0,7 / 90min
Somewhat better than his full season averages in a Chelsea shirt but still not quite the numbers he had over at Brighton.
But it's worth noting the last five league matches he's had 5+ tackles per game on three of the five occasions, which is something he never reached in his first 10 league starts so at least in that category the improvement has definitely been clear. The sample size is still small enough for even that 10 game average to include some of his early struggles. The two recent League Cup matches he's also clocked 4 tackles against Newcastle and 5 last night.
His passing rates have also improved siginificantly from earlier in the season and lately he's been clocking ~94% pass success rates in most games while at the beginning he barely reached 90%. And that is despite his total pass amounts being well above of his early season numbers.
So yeah, statistically speaking he's been a lot better than in the first 5-10 games. He's clocking himself a lot more touches on the ball and off possession he seems to have started finding himself in better positions to make tackles more regularly too. All this just goes to confirm what's already there to see with the naked eye that he's been slowly but surely improving his performances.
Whether he can keep up the same level of performance let alone further continue improving is the hurdle he's now facing. Lately he's been decent but not great, and if he wants to start justifying the amount of money spent on him (not sure if that's ever going to be possible for a DM but a man can try) he'll just need to continue building on this. Now would be the perfect time for him to really kick on and start showing some consistency with no international breaks to disrupt the season for the next couple of months and lots of important games to be played.
Sure feels like Poch doesn't have a clue how to set up the midfield:
Gallagher is fine and has his uses, especially against big sides, but building the midfield around his strengths seems absolutely idiotic. Taking off Enzo yesterday when Boro were completely turtled was beyond stupid.
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Gallagher is fine and has his uses, especially against big sides, but building the midfield around his strengths seems absolutely idiotic. Taking off Enzo yesterday when Boro were completely turtled was beyond stupid.
TBF they just stockpiled a bunch of wonderkids with minimal consideration as to how they would play with each other, so I wouldn't blame Poch for all of it.
RM did the same with Camavinga, Tchouameni, Bellingham, Valverde etc. not to mention Kroos and Modric but they seem to have found something to make it work.
RM did the same with Camavinga, Tchouameni, Bellingham, Valverde etc. not to mention Kroos and Modric but they seem to have found something to make it work.
Yeah I don't feel you're discussing in bad faith at all. I'll always stick up for my club if I feel criticism is unwarranted or the information is inaccurate but when it's fair criticism, it's fair criticism.
Feels pretty obvious that a double pivot makes the most sense by far, especially since then you get an extra runner to take advantage of the passing capabilities of both Enzo and Caicedo. Instead they've been shoved into a 3 man midfield where the middle is congested thanks to the extra body, there's no width or support down the left because Colwill isn't a fecking left back, and Enzo is forced to carry the ball instead of passing it when he's a Kroos-level deep playmaker.
Thanks for fishing that up for us. Good to know what I'm seeing is at least somewhat reflected in his overall stats. Hopefully he can keep improving.
2nd in the xG table so far and not bad defensively either (xGA). It seems like something that will just sort itself out. Especially with guys like Nkunku returning.
Strange they cannot adapt to a three-man midfield. Didn't Enzo play in a 3-man midfield with Argentina next to De Paul and MacAllister? Seemed to suit him fine
Sure - but Argentina have Messi for gravity which automatically opens space for everyone, willing forward runners, and a balanced set of fullbacks.
Put it this way - I don't think the problem is Enzo or Caicedo, I think the problem is the structure of the team around them. A 4-3-3 could potentially work but when the team has no width down the left the extra congestion in the middle causes huge problems.
Sorry what?
Jackson cost half the price and has scored 8x as many goals as Hoijund and guess which ones gets more slaughtering by the media?
Højlund. What’s your point?
2 more than Hojlund. Thank you Spurs
That’s because neither are anywhere close to the best midfielders in the world. Your fanbase has got to get away from that. Whatever midfield you have in the future has to feature just one of those players, they don’t compliment each other at all
Well, both played at a world class level last year and have gotten nowhere near it.
It's pretty clear they don't complement each other in a 3 man midfield with Gallagher; there's no reason whatsoever to think they are incompatible if used in a double pivot.
This is a prime example of what Ive said before about people’s perceptions of reality being shaped by the news they consume on a daily basis. Chelsea fan thinks Jackson gets more criticism than Hojlund, the United fan thinks Hojlund gets more criticism than Jackson.
My perception is Jackson is one of the most overly criticised players in the league but when I said this to my mate an Arsenal fan, he was like 'who the feck is criticising Jackson? I've seen nothing about him' while he felt Havertz is definitely the most criticised player in the league.
I agree with your point about different fans perception about how their club is reported on. That’s natural as you usually surround yourself with news about your own club rather than all the others. I do think however Utd receive more attention good and bad in general just because of the size of the club and it’s guaranteed easily clicks for any outlet.
Yes we curate our news intake and social media feeds to such a degree that it's almost exclusively about your own football club and interests. It's why I like being on this forum so much because you get a regular dose of what's going on with United, Liverpool, Arsenal etc.
For example, a while ago, there was a storm brewing at United, with leaks dropping about Ten Hag and the vibe in the dressing room. I saw nothing about this on any of my social media platforms. It was when I logged back in here that I saw what was going on. The news did eventually reach my heavily curated feeds when United banned a couple of journalists but that was a day or two later I believe.
You are of course right about United getting the most attention both good or bad on account of being the biggest club in the country.
only we’re allowed to buy players and make them shitter. hopefully ratcliffe threatens legal action.
Having a shocker today by all accounts
Brilliant assist and then went completely tits up. Not helped by suicidal tactics with both fullbacks pushing way up.
For some reason he just doesn't track runners into the box for cut-backs - definitely seems suboptimal!!
What on earth has happened to him?
At the moment he's the biggest flop in PL history yet he's completely under the radar. He would have been hung, drawn and quartered for the same season here.
At the moment he's the biggest flop in PL history yet he's completely under the radar. He would have been hung, drawn and quartered for the same season here.