Blind was good at DM in 14/15. The only critiscism that people had (even guys like Gary Neville had this) was that he was playing it too safe with his passes.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
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Blind was good at DM in 14/15. The only critiscism that people had (even guys like Gary Neville had this) was that he was playing it too safe with his passes.
I don't know why people and pundit called him having a good performance vs Arsenal. First half he did nothing much at all. Second half he did good especially on Ozil but overall 90 minutes it shouldn't be called as having a good game. Remember two goals from Arsenal were his error. Losing his man Welbeck and poor clearance for second goal.
Everton away? Because he scored? I don't buy his performance against Everton to be a good one.
Swansea home? I don't remember him having a good one for that one.
I'm telling you something and hoping you take that as a lesson but it seems you are being stubborn and think yourself as a right one. Although I find it amusing reading this post of yours.
It's not a football manager aye? That's exactly why I said just because a player have a good one or two seasons with mid table club doesn't mean he's good enough for Manchester United. If you think I just started watching football last week, but why im talking more sense than you did especially calling a player good enough even though he has done nothing.
The funny thing is you are mentioning Schneiderlin with Southampton but you have no damn clue that he played as a box to box.
Another funny stuff is that I expected you at least to know your stuff but if you think to be box to box can only be like Pogba then you got no clue and never watch the likes of Vidal, Keane and etc. There are many things you can view in box to box player.
Would you say any Schneiderlin best season is comparable with Kante last season? I don't think it's even near. And watch Chelsea's match will ya!! I watched them four times this season and I must say he's done absolutely as good as what he did with Leicester last season and Schneiderlin's at Southampton isn't nowhere near at his level. There is a massive different play with big club expectation and mid table club expectation.
Kante is right now one of Chelsea top 3 current players in term performance. Chelsea fans seems to be happy with him as well.
What's that flying over your head? Oh it's my post!!
I think you should reread your posts a few times before you accuse others of not making any sense, they're a mess.
Of course he doesn't play the same as Pogba, who in turn plays nothing like Keane. I'm not the one insisting on labelling them like I'm playing FM, you are. A defensive midfielder is a midfielder that focuses on defending, it's in the name. He's not a holding midfielder, that's a midifelder that holds, nor is he an anchoring midfielder, that's a midifelder that anchors. Do you understand the difference? Or do we need to get the salt and pepper out?
You haven't watched Chelsea, have you? Kante has been thoroughly underwhelming.
I thought I have seen one of the weird post of yours mentioning Schneiderlin was considered to be the best defensive midfield in the league when he was at Southampton but this post of yours is probably beat everything. Now I don't even know what you are trying to say, your latest reply doesn't make any sense at all. Because I already told you he played as a box to box during his last two season at Southampton so I don't see why he is considered to be the best defensive midfielder in the league. I don't even remember calling him as a holding midfielder or anchoring midfield or whatever you want to call it. If you are questioning me 'do you understand the difference', may be I should ask you do you even know how to read?
Or should I repeat myself again? Schneiderlin played as box to box with Southampton at his best. Vidal played as a box to box and Keane as a box to box in our 442 formation. Box to box don't have to be like Pogba but you think it has to be like Pogba and cannot be like Schneiderlin.
He's really been no better than Matic this season, who is a shadow of what he was, and a shadow of what Schneiderlin was. We bought Schneiderlin because we hoped he could do what Matic did for Chelsea that season.
Which, if that was indeed the case, was the initial mistake that has lead to him not playing enough and our midfield still being unsettled after all these years of spending loads of cash to sort it out. Because, if we were looking at S'ampton to find our new #6, we should have signed Wanyama and not Morgan. It's true that Matic was integral to Mourinho's last title at Chelsea, he was very disciplined and composed and he protected the central channels in a way that suited best Mourinho's tactical approach of defending deep and narrow.
Morgan has different qualities, he possesses incredible energy levels, he has no problem closing down the first attacker no matter the latter's movement on the ball (vertical, horizontal or diagonal) and he likes to press and tackle. But that's nowhere near Matic's description as a midfielder, isn't it? Morgan focuses on the ball and not the movement around him and he gets drawn out of position so often that he can't be trusted with the "Matic role".
For similar reasons Mascherano will never play the "Busquets role" at Barcelona despite him being an out and out defensive midfielder. He will be the ball chasing CB with Pique having a more covering role at the back. So, this leaves Morgan with a defensive midfielder's role in a midfield of three, most preferably with a holding player behind him and a creative/attacking midfielder ahead of him. Rafa's Liverpool did that with Alonso/Macherano/Gerrard. Could it work? Yes, it could but we should also keep in mind that this was a Liverpool side which relied on its defensive organization to win things and didn't have many aces up its sleeve when it came to creating chances. And that's the reason why they got a shot at the PL title only once during that period.
We all did the same mistake back in 2013 when we were looking for Scholes' replacement. Everybody was screaming about the lack of physicality and athleticism in the squad. Moyes thought likewise and signed Fellaini to partner Carrick. Everyone chose to neglect the play making abilities, the vision and the passing range of Scholes. As a result Carrick was left to do the holding midfielder and the deep lying play maker in his thirties... Same thing now, it seems like we need more and better defensive contribution when what we really need is positional awareness, good reading of the game and play making abilities in deeper areas of the pitch.
I thought we were talking about Schneiderlin's best season with Matic's best season so obviously Matic was better in 2014/2015. But if you are talking about this season I don't see why Schneiderlin is any better either because he hasn't play much yet so how can someone who hasn't play much is fair to be compared with a player who played a lot?
We bought Schneiderlin because we failed to sign Vidal. Remember Schneiderlin's rumour came out of nowhere after we failed to sign Vidal. He was just the backup option after Vidal and he was pretty much fail to do what people expected last season. Even I expected him the same but I guess playing good with Southampton level doesn't always mean he can perform in top club. He won't get enough chance if Herrera and Fellaini keep playing like the way they are doing so far. Not to mention Carrick is still in the squad.
Jesus this is painful.
He's a defensive midfielder, that's why during his first two seasons at Southampton in the PL he had comfortably more tackles and interceptions than any other player in the league. In your relentlessly pointless campaign for semantic clarification you've failed to realise this. You seem to be trapped in this notion that a defensive midfielder must be a holding midifelder. Again, if you base your entire footballing opinion on FM this is likely to happen. I've never said he wasn't a box to box midfielder, I was trying to point out that if you insist on disagreeing with my suggestion he is a defensive midfielder, then your description as a box to box midfielder is equally vague. Describing Pogba and Keanes role as the same seems pretty stupid on that basis, doesn't it?
I'll ask you one, very simple question. What was Schnederlins primary job role while playing for Southampton?
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Aye, his smugness when asking that other poster had he watched Chelsea is just hilarious considering that right now, Kante looks very average and has failed to replicate his form from last season.
The majority of the Leicester players have failed to live up to last seasons standards, naturally enough. That would be because they pretty much all played well above their actual levels and will never again replicate that kind of form. Kante played in a team that suited his strengths and he excelled; looking at him so far for Chelsea, makes it clear that he may well be another that over-performed and will never find those levels again. Who knows?
What's with the baseless FM bashing all the time? You can easily play a ball winning midfielder on support to emulate the role of a non holding defensive midfielder.
The question here is if he can only perform one role in a midfield and if so if that role fits into Mou's overall concept or not. That being said a lot of people on here are saying he was great as a box to box midfielder at Southampton and I tend to agree with this, he certainly ain't Carrick mk II which seems to be what we are looking for after introducing Pogba to the team.
I should be the one who said this not you. It's painful to talk to someone who has no clue.
You clearly haven't read my post and have no clue about box to box. Im going to say this one more and please read it and stops being stubborn. Box to box role or job isn't just one type of player like Pogba. It can be like Vidal, Keane or even what Schneiderlin did at Southampton. And so far until now you are thinking that box to box has to be like Pogba's type of player. How am I being stupid calling Pogba and Keane as box to box when clearly they did play as box to box before but there are different type of box to box.
The same thing like Defensive midfield can be viewed different way such as deeplying playmaker, anchor man and etc.. it's more as no6 role while box to box is more as no8 role.
And Schneiderlin played as a box to box at his best at Southampton which more as a no 8 role not a no 6 role!! So how can he is called as the best defensive mid if he played as a no8 role at Southampton? Is Vidal one of the best defensive midfield in your view as well because he played as a box to box??
You know the conversation has gone painful when someone else is also helping me to teach you about Schneiderlin's role @ivaldo ?
Schneiderlin is a defensive midfielder. I don't understand what people fail to understand about that. He's different to Kante, different to Matic, but he is a defensive midfielder and was a defensive midfielder for the majority of his best season with Southampton.
Wanyama did sit deeper, but that doesn't negate the obvious (Schneiderlin was a defensive midfielder). Call it box to box if you like, but it's just an argument over semantics.
Wanyama did sit deeper, but that doesn't negate the obvious (Schneiderlin was a defensive midfielder). Call it box to box if you like, but it's just an argument over semantics.
What an idiot. He's literally gone and highlighted my point, that positions are flexible, hence why I highlighted the box to box description being used for both Pogba and Keane?If you want to get picky with FM terms you can select a midfielder to play as a DM with support, which is a defensive midifelder that joins in with the attack. A box to box midifelder in its truest sense supports the attack as much as the defense, Schneiderlin definitely did not do that, you'll be a fool to argue otherwise.
Wow, you know you should really work on your come backs, literally repeating what I've just said doesn't do an awful lot for you.
I'm not calling you stupid for saying Pogba and Keane are both box to box midfielders, I've agreed with that fecking point! I'm saying if your happy to be flexible with what the term 'box to box' means then you need to be equally flexibility with the term 'defensive midfielder!' And now you're just repeating my point back to me, it's infuriating how you refuse to read what I actually post. Deal with it, both descriptions are perfectly exceptable when describing the player, the same as the term 'ball winning midfielder' would be.
Interesting that you neglected to discuss my point about the defensive statistics, I wonder why that was
Schneiderlin is also defensive mid because he did play there before Wanyama came but he was box to box at his best. Not a defensive midfield at his best seasons.
Maybe you can solve the argument by looking at his goal return. Box to box midfielders have a higher return than Schneiderlin.
Schneiderlin: 230 (14). A goal every 16 games for Southampton.
Henderson: 163 (20). A goal every 8 games for Liverpool.
Toure: 195 (57). A goal every 3.5 games or so for City.
Although that's not the best method, because you could argue about specific roles (Toure never did anything worth noting in a defensive sense). Or, about the respective quality of the teams each played for. So just taking a look at Transfermarkt, you see that Schneiderlin's average starting position during 13/14 was DM for 30 games, CM for 6 games.
Morgan Schneiderlin App: 31(2) Tackles: 3.4 Interceptions: 2.1 Fouls: 1.5 Clearances:1.5 Dribbles:1.2
Victor Wanyama App: 19(4) Tackles: 2.8 Interceptions: 1.4 Fouls: 2 Clearances: 2.2 Dribbles: 0.8.
From Whoscored. So during his best season, he beats Wanyama comfortably in defensive statistics. The only stat which supports the box to box claim is a small percentage (.4) of dribbling. Not enough. So I can't say he was at his best as a proper box to box midfielder.
Edit: also, he scored two goals and registered one assist. Those aren't box to box statistics. He was more advanced than Wanyama, who sat deep, but he was a defensive player.
Victor Wanyama App: 19(4) Tackles: 2.8 Interceptions: 1.4 Fouls: 2 Clearances: 2.2 Dribbles: 0.8.
From Whoscored. So during his best season, he beats Wanyama comfortably in defensive statistics. The only stat which supports the box to box claim is a small percentage (.4) of dribbling. Not enough. So I can't say he was at his best as a proper box to box midfielder.
Edit: also, he scored two goals and registered one assist. Those aren't box to box statistics. He was more advanced than Wanyama, who sat deep, but he was a defensive player.
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If you want to get picky with FM terms you can select a midfielder to play as a DM with support, which is a defensive midifelder that joins in with the attack. A box to box midifelder in its truest sense supports the attack as much as the defense, Schneiderlin definitely did not do that, you'll be a fool to argue otherwise.
Wow, you know you should really work on your come backs, literally repeating what I've just said doesn't do an awful lot for you.
I'm not calling you stupid for saying Pogba and Keane are both box to box midfielders, I've agreed with that fecking point! I'm saying if your happy to be flexible with what the term 'box to box' means then you need to be equally flexibility with the term 'defensive midfielder!' And now you're just repeating my point back to me, it's infuriating how you refuse to read what I actually post. Deal with it, both descriptions are perfectly exceptable when describing the player, the same as the term 'ball winning midfielder' would be.
Interesting that you neglected to discuss my point about the defensive statistics, I wonder why that was
it's actually amusing seriously. Shall I remind you? You were clearly have been saying that by calling a player a box to box that would directly compare that player to Pogba which I have been arguing with you because imo box to box can be viewed in different way like what Pogba does or like what Vidal which is like what @NoLogo was telling you that you can play as a ball winning midfielder as a non defensive midfielder. But you keep insist that he is a defensive midfielder because he plays like a ball winning midfielder.
Let's review your post:
A 'lesson to me' hey? I shall return the favour, this isn't football manager mate, a defensive midfielder is a midfielder that contributes significantly defensively. But if you want to be pedantic then calling him a box to box midfielder would directly compare him to Pogba, would you say he plays the same as PP? Nah. Didn't think so.
That quote below was when I called you weird because defensive midfielder is clearly just a name which you also said it's just a name. But it's a name for no6 role which can be viewed as anchoring midfielder and deeplying playmaker.!!
Carrick is considered to be defensive midfielder because he played as no6 role as a deeplying playmaker because it is part of defensive midfielder role but you keep insisting that defensive midfielder is just one type of player which is focusing on defending. It's just a name for no6 role mate!!
Let's review it:
A defensive midfielder is a midfielder that focuses on defending, it's in the name. He's not a holding midfielder, that's a midifelder that holds, nor is he an anchoring midfielder, that's a midifelder that anchors. Do you understand the difference? Or do we need to get the salt and pepper out?
I'm actually with two of my Chelsea mate right now and I showed them this and they are laughing at you. They think he's Chelsea's second best player so far. It's either he's being underrated by other people because Cahill was poor or you just got no clue about how big influence Kante has so far with Chelsea.
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Vidal biggest asset is more defensive duty but he played as a box to box or ball winning midfielder type of box to box which is no8 role not as a defensive mid which no6 role. Schneiderlin best season is clearly in 2014/2015 when he played as no8 role which the same role as Vidal had. The thing is that Schneiderlin actually scored more goals when he is converted to box to box compared to when he played as a defensive mid.
I think you mean 13/14, and he played a defensive role for Southampton that season. A box to box player is included in a team because he offers a threat at each end of the pitch. Schneiderlin was not a creative player during 13/14, and if anything, Wanyama was the more creative in terms of dictating play from deep.
Vidal isn't a great comparison. He was often deployed in very advanced positions, the type Schneiderlin rarely ever found himself in (either as a starter or during play). Also, Vidal's goal return and assists record dwarfs Schneiderlin's. In one season Vidal scored 18 goals and registered 5 assists. That's more goals than Schniederlin has scored in his club career. But even if we say that season was an anomaly, he still consistently scores and assists far more than Schneiderlin -- about on par with Toure. He's played in better sides, but anyone watching the two play can tell that there isn't much of a positional comparison to be made. Vidal is a legitimate box to box player. Deep one minute, advanced the next.
Unfecking beleiveable, even when you quote me again you've missed my point entirely!! The second post you quoted illustrates my point perfectly! I haven't said Pogba plays the same as Schneiderlin, which youve seem to have interpreted somewhere along the line, I used Pogba and Keane to illustrate how your insistence on players fitting into neat little roles doesn't work. Infact I actually clarified this in the same post you quoted from.
You were clearly have been saying that by calling a player a box to box that would directly compare that player to Pogba which I have been arguing with you because imo box to box can be viewed in different way like what Pogba does or like what Vidal which is like what @NoLogo was telling you that you can play as a ball winning midfielder as a non defensive midfielder. But you keep insist that he is a defensive midfielder because he plays like a ball winning midfielder.
Let's review your post:
A 'lesson to me' hey? I shall return the favour, this isn't football manager mate, a defensive midfielder is a midfielder that contributes significantly defensively. But if you want to be pedantic then calling him a box to box midfielder would directly compare him to Pogba, would you say he plays the same as PP? Nah. Didn't think so.
That quote below was when I called you weird because defensive midfielder is clearly just a name which you also said it's just a name. But it's a name for no6 role which can be viewed as anchoring midfielder and deeplying playmaker.!!
Carrick is considered to be defensive midfielder because he played as no6 role as a deeplying playmaker because it is part of defensive midfielder role but you keep insisting that defensive midfielder is just one type of player which is focusing on defending. It's just a name for no6 role mate!!
Let's review it:
A defensive midfielder is a midfielder that focuses on defending, it's in the name. He's not a holding midfielder, that's a midifelder that holds, nor is he an anchoring midfielder, that's a midifelder that anchors. Do you understand the difference? Or do we need to get the salt and pepper out?
You have, somehow, quite taking the point entirely on his head. I'm not making the defensive midifelder a singular role, you are!! I've used the term losely to describe a player who contributes defensively, I haven't said he anything other than that.
2014/2015 was his best season which is a season where he played as a box to box. You are similar to the guy I was arguing with. Is box to box has to be like Pogba? Need to know how to dribble or score goals? Box to box can be viewed in many ways. There are different type of box to box.
Basically my point is that people impressed with Schneiderlin in 2014/2015 season when he played as a no8 role not as a no6 role.
I literally said
and he's continuing to argue I said otherwise, the bloke has some inability to read what is in front of him, don't waste your time.
@Mciahel Goodman
I actually got confused between 13/14 and 14/15 (it's very late
), but even if we take 14/15, he was still included for his defensive ability, not his creative ability -- his defensive statistics for that season are again better than Wanyama's, and the gap in dribbles is closed to .1 (from .4) the previous season. Interestingly, there is only one goal between Wanyama and Schneiderlin in terms of end product for that season (4 to 3, both with 1 assist).Box to box doesn't have to be like Pogba, but box to box does quite literally mean box to box. I.e., you're defensive to offensive -- pop up at both ends consistently.
But if you can see the scope for different interpretations of box to box, why are you against the same logic being applied to DM?
Actually, going from a pure blind statistical viewpoint, you could argue that Wanyama was box to box because of the similarity in terms of stats. We all know that isn't the case, though. So I just can't see any sense in defining Schneiderlin as box to box. He's a ball-winning CM in my eyes. His passing isn't good over long distances, nor great over short distances. Good passing (and variety) is a trait of box to box midfielders. Good ones, at least.
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Wow some of you are taking this waaaaaaaay too seriously.
Guys, sometimes in life (and especially on the internet), you need to agree to disagree and call it a draw.
I learnt this a long time ago, when it comes to debates on the internet.
And go to bed...it's late. Have a good night.
Guys, sometimes in life (and especially on the internet), you need to agree to disagree and call it a draw.
I learnt this a long time ago, when it comes to debates on the internet.
And go to bed...it's late. Have a good night.
Fellaini is box to box. Terrible at it, but there you go.
Wow mate!! Dont you know how to read? Why are you keep insisting and thinking that I have been saying that you think Pogba played the same as Schneiderlin?. I never argue about you saying Pogba plays the same as Schneiderlin! Because you are clearly never said it.
My argument is why are you calling Schneiderlin as the best defensive midfield which is no6 role during his best season, when his best season he played as a box to box or ball winning midfielder type of box to box which is no8 role?
I described defensive midfield as a no6 which you might want to call it as a holding midfield. If you look at NoLogo post he also interpretated defensive midfield in the same way as I did. You are being weird and thinking different way. Just because it's called 'defensive' doesn't mean player like Vidal or Schneiderlin who played as no8 at their best season can be called as defensive midfield since their biggest asset is defending. The thing is defensive midfield is just another old version name for no6 role. Carrick's biggest asset is more of his passing but people still called him as a defensive midfield since it's another old version name of no6 role.
Shades of Carrick debates for back in the day.
I actually got confused between 13/14 and 14/15 (it's very late
Box to box doesn't have to be like Pogba, but box to box does quite literally mean box to box. I.e., you're defensive to offensive -- pop up at both ends consistently.
But if you can see the scope for different interpretations of box to box, why are you against the same logic being applied to DM?
Actually, going from a pure blind statistical viewpoint, you could argue that Wanyama was box to box because of the similarity in terms of stats. We all know that isn't the case, though. So I just can't see any sense in defining Schneiderlin as box to box. He's a ball-winning CM in my eyes. His passing isn't good over long distances, nor great over short distances. Good passing (and variety) is a trait of box to box midfielders. Good ones, at least.
I think you missed my point. I might repeat this again, my point is 2014/2015 was his best season which is the season where he played as a box to box which I interpreted box to box in two ways like Pogba and Dembele or like Vidal. When Schneiderlin played as a no6 role or DM it wasn't at his best.
You did admit that Wanyama was the one played as no6 when Schneiderlin showed his best performance and Schneiderlin played as a no8 in that season so I don't know what to argue about this again? I never said Schneiderlin isn't defensive midfield because he did play there but at his best season he wasn't defensive midfield but more as a no8 role.
Maybe what I mean is that Schneiderlin isn't a good box to box midfielder. I'll settle on that definition. He does the defensive part well enough (or at least he did), but isn't anywhere near good enough offensively to be played in that role for a top team.
The sideways and backwards passing theme is my favourite memory of those debates. "He never fecking plays the ball forwards", etc.
Yeah, Wanyama was definitely the deeper of the two. The player we should have bought, to be honest. I just don't see Schneiderlin as box to box because he doesn't do enough offensively for me to label him as such. Even at his peak with Southampton. But we won't agree, so I'll leave it there I guess.
This what you said mate:
A 'lesson to me' hey? I shall return the favour, this isn't football manager mate, a defensive midfielder is a midfielder that contributes significantly defensively. But if you want to be pedantic then calling him a box to box midfielder would directly compare him to Pogba, would you say he plays the same as PP? Nah. Didn't think so.
If you read my post you will notice that I called your post weird because it is so contrast with the one you said earlier. I called Schneiderlin at his best season when he played as a box to box and you interpretated that to be box to box mean would directly compare him to Pogba which I have been arguing to you that box to box has different type.
And one last thing I never say you called Pogba and Schneiderlin are the same or play the same. When did I say it? Any proof? I want to know if you actually even read my post. Especially after calling me has so e inability to read!!
Let's make this clear once and for all. If he's not box to box then what would you call it when he played at Southampton in 2014/2015? Defensive midfielder? But Wanyama was their defensive midfielder.
I think you didn't read my post properly like the guy I was arguing with. What I said was Box to box can be viewed in many ways. Which is more offensive task like Pogba or Dembele or more defensive tasks or ball winning like Vidal and Schneiderlin.
No, I get it, but the reason the comparison is flawed is because Vidal does both. Schneiderlin doesn't.
That's why Schneiderlin is considered to be a very limited player to be United's midfielder. He never was considered to be top player when he played as a defensive midfield. His best was as no8 at Southampton but he's a limited player to be United no8. He might be good to be Southampton no8 but not United no8. This is why I don't get if people expected him to perform like what he did at Southampton that means it has to be the no8 role when he did his best not as no6 otherwise he has to be find a new level as no6 which he never found it before.
people don't realize that many of our greatest players have taken time to settle into the team that's all.
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