No, he wants to be surrounded by big men in the training ground.Or, he wants the current giants (and midgets) to tussle, win 50/50s, headers; you know, .... be physical?
Mourinho: "We are not a physical side"
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
- Start date
We are a nothing side
a shit one with a lot of mercenaries with no heart.
Fellaini would have dealt with that mess of a second goal. I don’t think Azplicueta’s long throw even gets to a Chelsea player if Fellaini’s in that box to clear it. He wins the majority of his defensive headers.
Agree.
If we spend this much money and are neither a physical side nor a technical side then something has gone amiss. We are a strong and quick team that doesn't play quick, intense and physically imposing football. That's poor management. It's like Atletico Madrid playing passive and disorganized defensive football. What's the actual point?
We're a side.
Jose should have chosen basketball. He would have been elated to see all those athletic big men.
Players like Matic and lukaku must use their physicality better and be more dynamic on the pitch.
Bring keano in as coach, he will correct the mentality of players, going old school, while keep bailly away from his sessions.
He already is.
Did Mourinho said that?
Having physical players doesn't guarantee we'll be solid defensively in general, we'll focus on set-piece.
Covering all bases.
The current squad are not excellent at it, but not too baad either. Obv having Fellaini is a big boost - he's a natural and specialized at it. Smalling is solid at it, but can lose facing a much better aerial dominant players. Our other players can do the job, as long as they're focus on their marks. I see nothing wrong with the organization so far so the coaches did fine here.
The two ongoing problems are just communication and focus, squad is not good enough at that yet.
A leader at the back (which we have none ready) may help improve that.
*As does having a talisman that can inspire team with his active defending play and offensive heading during defending eg. Vidic, but that's too much to ask for now, a player like that doesn't appear often.
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Anyway, the second post of this thread, the one after op, already answer it.
Our specific players have done that mistakes many games ago, so it's nothing new, still doing it, but at least Pogba are pissed about it and have since improved compare to previous seasons - he needs to get rougher and tighter with his mark next and be more alert. Now if only the others could work better improving it. The likes of Lukaku need to focus better, he tend to switch off when defending. Lindelof needs to express himself more, still too passive. Don't remember about the rest.
If we're going to compare it with our rivals using all those many creative spins of numbers and statistics, then the difference of team playstyles is the answer imo. Put opposing teams back in their lane, then they'll have fewer chances to have closer and closer distanced set-pieces go at us.
If yes, then I missed his recent interviews.
If not, then what's with making it seems like so, many posts here swung at that angle as a result.
If not, then what's with making it seems like so, many posts here swung at that angle as a result.
Having physical players doesn't guarantee we'll be solid defensively in general, we'll focus on set-piece.
- Quality of defending aerially plus marking,
- organization-communication &
- concentration are all far more important.
Covering all bases.The current squad are not excellent at it, but not too baad either. Obv having Fellaini is a big boost - he's a natural and specialized at it. Smalling is solid at it, but can lose facing a much better aerial dominant players. Our other players can do the job, as long as they're focus on their marks. I see nothing wrong with the organization so far so the coaches did fine here.
The two ongoing problems are just communication and focus, squad is not good enough at that yet.
A leader at the back (which we have none ready) may help improve that.
*As does having a talisman that can inspire team with his active defending play and offensive heading during defending eg. Vidic, but that's too much to ask for now, a player like that doesn't appear often.
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Anyway, the second post of this thread, the one after op, already answer it.
Our specific players have done that mistakes many games ago, so it's nothing new, still doing it, but at least Pogba are pissed about it and have since improved compare to previous seasons - he needs to get rougher and tighter with his mark next and be more alert. Now if only the others could work better improving it. The likes of Lukaku need to focus better, he tend to switch off when defending. Lindelof needs to express himself more, still too passive. Don't remember about the rest.
If we're going to compare it with our rivals using all those many creative spins of numbers and statistics, then the difference of team playstyles is the answer imo. Put opposing teams back in their lane, then they'll have fewer chances to have closer and closer distanced set-pieces go at us.
We have not had a truly dominant aerially center half since Vidic stopped being good. It amazes me that people still wonder why we concede set pieces constantly when that remains the case.
What does Jose mean by physical, big lethargic clumsy players like Fellaini or Lukaku who has the agility of an 18 wheeler truck or Matic slow on his feet and often left standing. Sure Jose we need more of these type of players. Since Fergie left our best CD partnership has been Blind and (Mike)Smalling. How often in that season could we laugh and enjoy how Blind had these top strikers in his pocket yet Jose only believes in size. It doesn't matter how big or physical a player is it doesn't automatically mean they can defend, defending is awareness and seeing or predicting what could happen before it happens. If jose really wanted some physicality in the defense against Chelsea he should've brought on Bailly instead of Sanchez, Perreira or Herrera.
Being a tall team doesn't necessarily mean that you're a physical side. The only stronger more physical players I'd put as Lukaku, Bailly and maybe Matic at a push. So 2 or 3 of our players.
One of those things that really annoys me. I think the media and fans pressured him so much to play the United way and he tried to instruct his team to score more at stamford bridge.
Old Mourinho would have closed the game wait for the final whistle.
Old Mourinho would have closed the game wait for the final whistle.
One isn't always enough. When we do play with Smalling and Fellaini to help out it makes a difference. Take Fellaini out and we are left with one competent header of the ball in the whole team.
What? That's exactly what his subs were aimed at the minute you had taken the lead.
Then he should have subbed Martial with a defensive player instead of Sanchez. Pereira and Ander for Mata made sense, but we still tried to counter and lose the ball too easily.
It is quite remarkable how bad our central defenders are in the air. Smalling’s the best, by a country mile, but it’s actually not one of his strengths. He’s never been a very aggressive header of the ball. I’m willing to bet there are central defenders in every side in the top half of the table that are more dominant in the air than Smalling. And he’s the best we’ve got!
Of course, as is always the case these days, pointing this simple fact out (and the fact Woodward apparently thinks this isn’t an issue) will be seen as some sort of spirited defence of Mourinho. Which is fecking demented but there you go. I’ve made my feelings about Mourinho clear enough but he’s 100% correct if he thinks we have issues in central defence that need fixing.
To counter that threat we should be more proactive and press, but Nah mourinho thinks opposite , so now he wants new players.
City ain't dominant in the air as well.
Physical enough side to defend set pieces though? It's not just about height and weight. If it were, Barcelona would be scored on from every corner they ever concede. Yet (sadly) they don't. Guys like Smalling, Matic, Pogba and Fellaini and Rom aren't exactly midgets are they? But it doesn't matter if you're 3 feet or 15 feet tall, if you don't pay attention to your man and lose him, you'l get dunked on.
In the defence one dominant one is crucial. Because he will organize the rest whilst also ensuring he gets to every ball. For example like Fellaini does. To have no starting defender that dominant aerially is criminal. Its what kills us the most.
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Exactly. Look at Pool. Till they got VVD they had guys good in the air but couldnt keep set pieces out. With him there, since he us brilliant aerially, its rare they are beaten at setpieces.
More about aggression at set pieces - feel a lot of our players are quite reactive at set pieces but if someone has got a run on them, it's all a bit passive. At this level you should be able to follow a run, you don't even have to win the header as long as you can impede their momentum or put them off enough. I don't see this enough from our players - we're a bit naive and need a bit more blocking at corners (which seems pretty legal at the moment given no refs are giving penos fro it and it's common).
If VVD gets blocked off he's not going to win that header either. Its not that he's organizing the entire defense/team during set pieces, its that the team is organized around ensuring he isnt getting blocked off.
I fail to see the point you are trying to make Liverpool as an example used to constantly lose set piece duels for over 2 years under Klopp. Signing VVD alone changed all that. All because a) He is that good in the air and b) Because he is also a top defender he organizes his team mates accordingly.
Even us. When we had Vidic in his pomp. He always ensured he was the one free to deal with the main aerial ball threats, whilst Rio and others took care of all others. It should also be fairly obvious too that no team with an aerially dominant cb will EVER allow him to be blocked off by their own personnel as they defend a set piece. The perfect example is how we defend set pieces with Fellaini on pitch. 10/10 times its he getting closest to the ball and it is always because others cede him that responsibility and only set up to support. Yet he is a midfielder and is not even supposed to be starting material.
Pretty much meaning if we had a starting center half world class at that job. We'd be far better
Smalling makes the joint most headers of any player, in any of the "top" clubs in the league along with Fellaini both at 4.1 per game.
Thats despite Fellaini being picked to win headers, and when he has played as the DM has tended to make the most headers in the team when he's played.
So the matches with Fellaini have taken Smalling's average down and yet he's still far ahead of the rest including VVD.
Mustafi also wins more than VVD.
And if we include any CB in the league there are a huge amount that win more than VVD but lets stick to comparisons with the other bigger clubs.
If you believe that its impossible for VVD to be blocked off because he's barreling through the player doing it and winning headers then show me some examples. Because I havent seen it. I dont think you have. So show me if you have.
If VVD isn't powering through players whos job it is to stop him attacking the ball, then he's not going to do any more than Smalling did on the 2nd goal. Especially as he wins less of those balls.
Allegri said we are a physical side, and they are not
Really worried because they don’t have Mandzukic
Really worried because they don’t have Mandzukic
It is not possible for a defender to always get to every ball. How many balls he clears on his own might be the indicator if he is dominant in the air or not. Smalling is always the one getting his head on crosses in open play, he is aerially dominant. On set pieces especially you have your starting position and if you mark a dangerous player and the ball doesn't go in your space then you naturally won't get to the ball, no matter how dominant you are. The reason Fellaini gets to go for every ball is because he has the freedom to move around in front of the defenders and around the box where the ball most likely will end up, with the sole purpose of winning a header, while our defenders mark their players. Would have been nice to just trust one of our defenders with the responsibility of generally defending, but no, our only aerially dominant CB is busy doing the defending for 3 players so he can't just focus on going for every header like Vidic had the privilege of.
That is my view of it anyway. Not to say we shouldn't have another great header of the ball, preferably one with more of a power header, but the most important thing for me is for a new defender to just work with the players we have and be solid defensively all-around. As for our current leaking of goals from set-pieces, you can look for a grand point if you want but to me it just looks like certain players aren't keeping their focus on set-pieces. One player loses his marker is enough, and often that is exactly was has happened. I think coaching the players we have, on this particular issue should be one of Mourinho's easier tasks.
Also Liverpool dont exactly have the best defensive record on set pieces if we look at last season. They had joint 6th least conceded with Everton, which is behind Arsenal, Chelsea and then City had the least conceded on set pieces in the league.
We conceded just 2 more goals than Liverpool did last season and it was clearly our weakness.
Hardly a glowing endorsement that signing 1 single CB who is good in the air is all you need to defend well against set pieces. Liverpool conceded 12 the season before, so that £75 million among other things helped them concede 2 goals less from set pieces.
Meanwhile we conceded just 7 goals that 16/17 season, joint 2nd least amount equal with Chelsea and Spurs.
That season we had no CB who started more than Bailly's 20 league matches, tossing and changing CBs. And yet we had a better handle on set pieces than either we or Liverpool had last season despite VVD.
We conceded just 2 more goals than Liverpool did last season and it was clearly our weakness.
Hardly a glowing endorsement that signing 1 single CB who is good in the air is all you need to defend well against set pieces. Liverpool conceded 12 the season before, so that £75 million among other things helped them concede 2 goals less from set pieces.
Meanwhile we conceded just 7 goals that 16/17 season, joint 2nd least amount equal with Chelsea and Spurs.
That season we had no CB who started more than Bailly's 20 league matches, tossing and changing CBs. And yet we had a better handle on set pieces than either we or Liverpool had last season despite VVD.
We have tried to rely on coaching since Vidic left. But the issue persists. Especially when we faced sides good in the air that have decent set piece delievery. The best example is when West Ham cost LVG his job. We had the best defence in the league organisation wise. Then we ran into West Ham and it cost us a champions league place because we had no answer to their aerial assault in Fellaini's absence . Which was criminal.
When you have on truly aerially dominant cb. You leave him free to deal with the biggest aerial threat and everyone else offers support. If we had once such CB plus Fellaini on a pitch. We'd kill in both boxes during set plays
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You are simply conflating making the most headers durimg games with being aerially dominant. We have watched Smalling be beaten by a marker to a ball during set pieces ample times before. When was the last time you saw it happen to Fellaini?
I dont have to. Because it ismt realevant to my stance at all. You seem to be arguing that the only reason we concede at set pieces is because our cb who us best in the air keeps getting 'blocked off'. I simply counter by saying re watch our last weeks of the season defeat to West Ham when LVG was in charge. A match that perfectly highlights the difference between being good in the air and aerially dominant.
The likes of Mustafi and Smalling might consistently win more headers than VVD, but Id trust neither of them over him if I wanted to defend set pieces
I'm sorry that argument doesn't work simply because VVD did NOT spend the whole season with Liverpool. I'd rather you gave us statistics comparing the number of set piece goals they gave away before he arrived, to the ones let in the period after he arrived so that if we find his impact was utterly minimal even I will agree with you.
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desire and positioning are more important then height. See Kompany last season just powering past Smalling on their corner where he scored from. Not the first time Kompany has done that to us over the years, he did the exact same thing to Smalling back in 2012 in that crucial league game. Is he any bigger or stronger than our defenders, no but he attacks the ball with purpose. Guys like Bailly, Matic, Pogba, Lindeloff and Lukaku in our box defending corners don't attack the ball, they react, by that time it's too late
Fellaini has been beaten throughout his career at United and until this season was rarely competing with the big strikers as he was in midfield and was competing with other midfielders. He's doing better this season and yes Smalling loses slightly more than Fellaini this season.
I agree. Smalling is probably our best defender at headers and he can get beaten by more aggressive players. Fellaini is our only other reliable defender in the air. Other players are only average and the organization is fine. The problem is they are liable to make mistakes. Like Pogba for Chelsea's opening goal.Did Mourinho said that?
If yes, then I missed his recent interviews.
If not, then what's with making it seems like so, many posts here swung at that angle as a result.
Having physical players doesn't guarantee we'll be solid defensively in general, we'll focus on set-piece.
- Quality of defending aerially plus marking,
- organization-communication &
- concentration are all far more important.
The current squad are not excellent at it, but not too baad either. Obv having Fellaini is a big boost - he's a natural and specialized at it. Smalling is solid at it, but can lose facing a much better aerial dominant players. Our other players can do the job, as long as they're focus on their marks. I see nothing wrong with the organization so far so the coaches did fine here.
The two ongoing problems are just communication and focus, squad is not good enough at that yet.
A leader at the back (which we have none ready) may help improve that.
*As does having a talisman that can inspire team with his active defending play and offensive heading during defending eg. Vidic, but that's too much to ask for now, a player like that doesn't appear often.
---
Anyway, the second post of this thread, the one after op, already answer it.
Our specific players have done that mistakes many games ago, so it's nothing new, still doing it, but at least Pogba are pissed about it and have since improved compare to previous seasons - he needs to get rougher and tighter with his mark next and be more alert. Now if only the others could work better improving it. The likes of Lukaku need to focus better, he tend to switch off when defending. Lindelof needs to express himself more, still too passive. Don't remember about the rest.
If we're going to compare it with our rivals using all those many creative spins of numbers and statistics, then the difference of team playstyles is the answer imo. Put opposing teams back in their lane, then they'll have fewer chances to have closer and closer distanced set-pieces go at us.
I totally agree with the lack of communication and focus. The squad communicate with each other enough. Too often I see players not warning their teammates that they are being closed down. To watch their back, etc. Or to organize the defence to track for runners in a counter. The lack of focus is very obvious when we've conceded so many goals from mistakes ranging from not marking your man properly to not running back when you should.
You havent answered the question at allFellaini has been beaten throughout his career at United and until this season was rarely competing with the big strikers as he was in midfield and was competing with other midfielders. He's doing better this season and yes Smalling loses slightly more than Fellaini this season.
What question ? I was agreeing that Fellaini has this season at least, won his duels more than Smalling.
I asked:
When was the last time you saw Fellaini beaten to a header by a player he was marking in our box? Or beaten to the ball whilst defending an aerial ball in our box?