What's this Glory hunting nonsense about? Every supporter, despite the situation the team is in wants the club to be glorious. Of course that Glory is relative to each team, but needless to say everyone wants to see their team to succeed. So if you don't see your team succeeding under a certain regime then why in gods name would you want that to continue, to prove what exactly? That you can withstand the tough times? If this clubs struggles 'cause of Moyes for the foreseeable future I promise you the vast majority will still be here, but why would we want the club to keep a man we have no confidence in?
Moyes: Stick or Sack?
- Thread starter KiD MoYeS
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This. The whole "stop being a spoilt glory hunter" comes across as point-scoring and I think it accomplishes very little but just making people defensive.
We need rebuilding that much is clear. Now the question we have to ask ourselves is whether Moyes is the man to do that, keeping in mind he has never had a task this enormous and has so far shown no signs that he is up to the job. If you think the answer is yes, then by all means stick with him. If you think the answer is no, then time to look at other options with a view to the summer.
Yes. It's mainly trenches and very little diplomacy at the moment. As expected, you could say. My feeling is that most posters who play the glory hunter card do so out of frustration with a certain segment of the Caf - a very vocal segment who do little but repeat the same petulant formula over and over again. These people do indeed come across as spoilt, entitled moaners who aren't prepared to go five minutes in the shade. I don't know if they're glory hunters, but they're certainly bloody annoying and they add very little to any possible debate about our current predicament.
I agree mate. In fact I was gutted when the club sacked Ron Atkinson after a couple of bad games. FFS this man got us two FA cup medals, one merely 1-2 yrs before he got sacked. Surely he deserved more time right?
Aye but counter-acting that with playing the glory hunter card accomplishes little imo.
I would feel differently if someone posted "your posts read like you're a glory hunter" versus "stop being a spoilt glory hunter". I can sense the frustration but I'm not sure the frustration wholly justifies responding like that.
Sack and bring in the other Neville and Giggs.
Stick.
But, if we dont get the top 4 spot end of season, get rid.
But, if we dont get the top 4 spot end of season, get rid.
For me, the issue is I honestly cannot see a way out of this for Moyes.
Obviously the main thing is winning football matches, that goes without saying, but we're so deep in troubles that I can't envisage him or us turning it around.
What's he supposed to do now? With pressure mounting, try and change our style of play, which he's had six months of doing without showing any signs of wanting to do so? I don't think so, if anything this elusive change of style is further away than when he's appointed.
And how is he going to get players to suddenly perform, that seem to completely lack interest? The likes of Evra, Rio, Vidic, Carrick, Kagawa, Cleverley, the list goes on and on. They seem perfectly happy to hide and let the responsibillity fall on Januzaj, why should that change - and how?
And how excactly is January going to help us? I can't see us getting much business done, at best a Coentrao deal which will be an upgrade but hardly a season changer.
If we then get into the summer Moyes will have the not very enviable task of identifying the players that'll get us back in the Champions League (at the very least), and persuading them to go play for us, for a manager that on the evidence of results seems to be a clueless moron that has ruined the English champions, without luring them with CL football.
He then has to get rid of the deadwood and those who won't play for him, so it's not unreasonable to think there's going to be quite the transition in terms of personell, not to mention that he'll have to replace the same players.
Then what? We're going to wait for the inevitable transition period as Moyes's new squad settles? We're going to gamble that Moyes will get it right, so far on the back of the Fellaini transfer as his one and only venture into the market?
And is he going to try and change our style then, or will the pressure of getting results, on the back of a terrible campaign, lead him to keep things like they are and try and force wins trough grit like Norwich, Hull et all?
I honestly can't see anything that makes me think this will not somehow end with him being fired. Ask yourselves; can you see him as United manager five years from now? If not, why let him build our next side, that's hopefully competing for trophies at that time?
Obviously the main thing is winning football matches, that goes without saying, but we're so deep in troubles that I can't envisage him or us turning it around.
What's he supposed to do now? With pressure mounting, try and change our style of play, which he's had six months of doing without showing any signs of wanting to do so? I don't think so, if anything this elusive change of style is further away than when he's appointed.
And how is he going to get players to suddenly perform, that seem to completely lack interest? The likes of Evra, Rio, Vidic, Carrick, Kagawa, Cleverley, the list goes on and on. They seem perfectly happy to hide and let the responsibillity fall on Januzaj, why should that change - and how?
And how excactly is January going to help us? I can't see us getting much business done, at best a Coentrao deal which will be an upgrade but hardly a season changer.
If we then get into the summer Moyes will have the not very enviable task of identifying the players that'll get us back in the Champions League (at the very least), and persuading them to go play for us, for a manager that on the evidence of results seems to be a clueless moron that has ruined the English champions, without luring them with CL football.
He then has to get rid of the deadwood and those who won't play for him, so it's not unreasonable to think there's going to be quite the transition in terms of personell, not to mention that he'll have to replace the same players.
Then what? We're going to wait for the inevitable transition period as Moyes's new squad settles? We're going to gamble that Moyes will get it right, so far on the back of the Fellaini transfer as his one and only venture into the market?
And is he going to try and change our style then, or will the pressure of getting results, on the back of a terrible campaign, lead him to keep things like they are and try and force wins trough grit like Norwich, Hull et all?
I honestly can't see anything that makes me think this will not somehow end with him being fired. Ask yourselves; can you see him as United manager five years from now? If not, why let him build our next side, that's hopefully competing for trophies at that time?
Great, let's be like real Madrid shall we?
Barca and Bayern actually don't pile through dozens of managers on a whim like those other three. And personally I respect them for that.
I'm not saying we never review Moyes' position, no matter what. Just that we shouldn't be the sort of club that bins a manager within 6 months. Do that once and you'reon the slippery slope toa Chelsea style conveyor belt.
And yet by far the most successful club in the country over that period is the one which bucked that trend. I've spent the last decade laughing at other clubs always thinking their latest new manager will be answer. I really don't want to join them.
We're the only one who were in a position where we could hold on to the manager, safe in the knowledge that he'd absolutely bring us back to the top, no matter what.
No other club can do this. Heck, even Arsenal will never know for sure if Wenger has it in them to get them back, not until he's done it, although the signs there are positive enough for them to have persevered through trophyless years.
Not at the beginning we weren't.
And actually, the first couple of times we dipped off we were far from "safe in the knowledge that he'd absolutely bring us back"... don't forget that there were a fair number of fans questioniong whether he should stay, and a whole lot of opposition fans celebrating his demise, 10 years ago. Even those who backed him knew it was an act of faith and hope, more than a dead cert.
It's only really been since 2007 that pretty much everybody in football accepted that he would always be able to get us back to the top, no matter what.
I have said throughout this season. to give him the full season if doesn't get a trophy or top 4 then he will get sacked. But i am beginning to get restless. If there was the occasional good performance then you can forgive a few blips but even the matches we win we play terribly.
More often than not we have been rescued by Rooney. As much as I hate the chopping and changing of managers it often does work, when a team is playing badly
More often than not we have been rescued by Rooney. As much as I hate the chopping and changing of managers it often does work, when a team is playing badly
He needs to go by the end of the season unless he can miraculously secure top 4, which is looking like a pipe dream atm.
I feel for him and its true the players have to burden much of the blame but this is clearly a job too big for him.
I wish it were already May.
I feel for him and its true the players have to burden much of the blame but this is clearly a job too big for him.
I wish it were already May.
I always thought taking over Fergie would be an impossible job for pretty much anyone. The size of the shoes Moyes was stepping into are enormous and not like the usual merry go rounds at the likes of Chelsea/City etc al.
It was always in my mind that the only way a manager would have a decent chance at suceeding was if the manager that came after Fergie flopped. That way they wouldn't be taking over a team at the top, but a team in desperate need of a new direction.
It was always in my mind that the only way a manager would have a decent chance at suceeding was if the manager that came after Fergie flopped. That way they wouldn't be taking over a team at the top, but a team in desperate need of a new direction.
Top 4 is still very possible IMO. We just have to make sure we keep our key players fit.
didnt expect 75% to support him, in fact i am shocked. i get the feeling that too many people are being brainwashed by the "real supporter" nonsense that seems to be going about and in private wouldnt be sad to see the back of him.
we owe Moyes nothing, we are Man United and nobody is bigger than the club. his existance as united manager is threatening out future. if the players are not inspired by him, why should the fans?
we owe Moyes nothing, we are Man United and nobody is bigger than the club. his existance as united manager is threatening out future. if the players are not inspired by him, why should the fans?
Can someone tell me what our performances were like in SAF's early days? Not the results, but just the way we were playing football. Were we showing signs of progress or did people struggle to see any way forward?
What's very sad is that I agree with all of this.
Imagine, Moyes takes us from Champions to 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, take your pick. I know it's a bit of a special case what with Fergie being here for ages, but has there ever happened that a new manager has ruined a great team as much as Moyes is in the process of doing?? If not, doesn't that make him (hyperbole alert) the worst manager of all time?
Like it or not, potential new signings would be very sceptical of playing for Moyes.
The results are obviously lacking, but thank God we at least play nice football. Oh wait..
I'd give him until the summer and if he didn't miraculously turn it around then he needs to go before even more damage is done. And by turn it around I mean winning the CL (ha ha) or get 4th, which should be doable.
You're a lot more optimistic than I am then.
I would have thought top 4 was possible when it looked like we were briefly regaining some form. Though if you factor in our current performances, results, the body language of the players and our remaining fixtures...I just don't see it happening. Add to that I don't see Liverpool dropping too many points between now and May (whereas I expect us to drop heaps) and you can also be sure Arsenal, City and Chelsea are certain to cement their positions in the top 3.
This is a complete mess.
I know what you mean, but I can see him turning it round. He's done the baptism with fire bit now he's got to show what he's made of.
I think the squad is capable of better than this. I personally find it easier to believe that SAF has made one mistake in the handover, not 20 of them. It's up to Moyes to show he can rise to the challenge.
The team needs its passion and confidence back - Moyes has a responsibility there. If they aren't responding to his training methods, maybe he'd better look at his methods - pride comes before a fall. He needs to manage the return of players from injury. He needs to make sure the rotation is keeping his backups fresh, hard when results are going against you, but that's his job.
January recruitment? Would be nice, but he can't bank on it. A good addition would add to Moyes' hopeful signs list, but he's got to make this team work.
Personally, I think this next few month is the best test possible for him. Maybe he'll show that patience is all that's required. If he doesn't? As I've said before, if he can't handle this squad, I don't see how they can let him handle the budget.
Spot on. This t0p red nonsense is getting tedious.
Yes, we've been spoilt with the last two decades of success, but that's not to say we shouldn't be concerned if our title winning squad suddenly looks like they'd struggle in a relegation battle. Its obvious that this has been the wrong appointment - Fergie was wrong, the board were wrong, the club were wrong. Denying this and blindly backing Moyes doesn't make you a bona fide fan, it makes you delusional.
It kind of amazes me that the Glazer's are sending out signals that they would rather invest £200m in a new squad than sack Moyes and find a better manager who can get maximum purchase out of this squad. It kind of belies everything that we thought we knew about Glazernomics; whilst indicating the absolute faith that they have in the Fergie philosophy about having a reliable British manager with just the right amount of 'Scottish dourness' for success.
That said, the cynic in me would view the spectacular war chest stories as nothing more than propaganda in an attempt to mask the crisis that we now find ourselves in.
That said, the cynic in me would view the spectacular war chest stories as nothing more than propaganda in an attempt to mask the crisis that we now find ourselves in.
I'll agree with that, but possibly not in the way you meant it.
No, it isn't at all. It's obvious that the change of manager has not yielded a good outcome in terms of how we've played in the first 5 months. BUt there are two things we don't know:
a) Whether anybody else would have done better - It's been said a million times that it was only SAF's influence that won us the title, and the players aren't as good as the top three's. So what makes everybody convinced that a different manager would have just dropped in and got us playing well within 5 months? The obvious point is that we should have bought in the summer, but it's not like we didn't try - our failure seems as much down to Woodward and the money-men as the manager, who did his part in identifying targets.
b) How things will go in the longer term. 5 months just isn't long enough to know what a Moyes United team looks like. Fergie's early yers are well documented, and somebody mentioned that Wenger lost 7 matches by xmas in his first season. Making a judgment on this short a period is just massively flawed. You can say that you can judged by the style of football we are playing, but clearly Moyes isn't sending them out with instructions to play shit, boring, incompetent football - for one reason or another, his plans just aren't being executed at the moment.
This isn't to say that things are guaranteed to turn round... we may find that in another year they still aren't executing his plans, or they are but his plans aren't yielding results. And at some point there does come the time to decide it's not working. But it isn't after 5 months, with only one new player, as a reaction to three matches when our two best strikers are injured.
I don't give a feck about being a bona fide fan. People will be fans in their own way, doesn't bother me one way or the other. But I take offense when people suggest I'm delusional for not reaching the "obvious" conclusion that Moyes will never succeed after six months on the job. It goes both ways, this thing. If you're upset by top reds you shouldn't deal in absolutist bollocks yourself.
I'm a bit too young to properly remember, but there was a very loud Fergie out campaign.
Stick, obviously but he should be getting a hard ride, I've no sympathy with him there. He's correctly under pressure because he's under performed.
If you remember 2004-2006 you'll remember another one. Read Daniel Taylor's book, he writes about United fans confronting the boss at the airport, feckwits like United fanzines calling for him to go.
It's a myth fans involved in these disgraceful acts like to peddle that the only Fergie protests were in 1989
No problem with that... one thing he defintiely needs to have is the balls to ride out this sort of situation. It's allegedly one of the main qualities we picked him for!
There used to be a website called unitedrant. Boy did that guy like to go on a rant.
A couple of counterpoints:I'll agree with that, but possibly not in the way you meant it.
No, it isn't at all. It's obvious that the change of manager has not yielded a good outcome in terms of how we've played in the first 5 months. BUt there are two things we don't know:
a) Whether anybody else would have done better - It's been said a million times that it was only SAF's influence that won us the title, and the players aren't as good as the top three's. So what makes everybody convinced that a different manager would have just dropped in and got us playing well within 5 months? The obvious point is that we should have bought in the summer, but it's not like we didn't try - our failure seems as much down to Woodward and the money-men as the manager, who did his part in identifying targets.
b) How things will go in the longer term. 5 months just isn't long enough to know what a Moyes United team looks like. Fergie's early yers are well documented, and somebody mentioned that Wenger lost 7 matches by xmas in his first season. Making a judgment on this short a period is just massively flawed. You can say that you can judged by the style of football we are playing, but clearly Moyes isn't sending them out with instructions to play shit, boring, incompetent football - for one reason or another, his plans just aren't being executed at the moment.
This isn't to say that things are guaranteed to turn round... we may find that in another year they still aren't executing his plans, or they are but his plans aren't yielding results. And at some point there does come the time to decide it's not working. But it isn't after 5 months, with only one new player, as a reaction to three matches when our two best strikers are injured.
1) His 'realistic' targets identified in the transfer market were the likes of Bale and Fabregas, the latter of which we wasted what seemed to be endless amounts of time and energy in chasing with derisory bids. In the end he stalled on Fellaini which he in his infinite wisdom desperately signed for substantially higher than his earlier release clause fee.
2) I'd give you that 5 months is not nearly enough time to judge Moyes on his merits. I was initially willing to give give him a minimum of two years before passing judgement, but I've had to revise that based on how hopelessly awful we've been - we knew it would be a rougher ride this season but I don't imagine many of us envisioning it to be this bad. And for all of Fergie's efforts in motivating an ageing, deficient squad of players, they still won the league last season by a margin of 11 points and never in the last 6 years or so did we look like in danger of falling out of the top 2. This near-cataclysmic decline we're seeing in the space of 5 months is unacceptable.
Was it just a blog for some bitter fan to mouth off on?
Personally I'd go for his stick over his sack, I'm not particularly a big fan of sucking on either, but look, if it comes to it and it's the only way to help him get his mojo back to manage these players, I'll take the hit and suck on that Scottish Sausage of his, but I'll be damned if I'll go near those wobbly testes.
Barcelona replaced Sir Bobby after winning the Copa del Rey and Cup Winners Cup
Van Gaal, in his 2nd stint, replaced after 6 months!!
Bayern, replaced Magath in the middle of the season despite winning them 2 titles before, Klinsmann also replaced after months in the job.
stick with him and let him build his team. The other teams around us have improved their squads and we didn't in the summer. Perhaps Moyes should have identified the weaknesses in the squad sooner but he was probably thinking that a squad of players that won the league last season might be performing a bit better this season. We are going through bad form, but would Fergie really have done much better. Rooney would have been sold in the Summer and Chelsea would have had the league wrapped up by now if they had Rooney this season. Fergie would have also brought Fellaini, I still don't think it was a panic buy by Moyes I think it was a panic buy from the directors.
He has now identified his targets and they are good players but we may have to wait til the summer to buy them. I'm liking the passion I see from Moyes, yes I would like to see a better system in our play but I think that will come once he gets his players in. We played well last night apart from we are creating nothing in the final 3rd, but we pressed high and Sunderland got lucky. We need to sure up our defensive lines get tighter at the back before we can turn our from around.
It might be ugly for a while but it will come. But this is football this is why we love the game
He has now identified his targets and they are good players but we may have to wait til the summer to buy them. I'm liking the passion I see from Moyes, yes I would like to see a better system in our play but I think that will come once he gets his players in. We played well last night apart from we are creating nothing in the final 3rd, but we pressed high and Sunderland got lucky. We need to sure up our defensive lines get tighter at the back before we can turn our from around.
It might be ugly for a while but it will come. But this is football this is why we love the game
For those saying sack, who would you have step in?
I guess we can never really know who was to blame in what ways for the summer's transfer debacles, let's see how we do in future windows (either with or without Moyes - both would give us a bit more idea of what's really gonig on)
Yes, we've played some insipid football, but we haven't been thrillingly entertaining for the last couple of years. From that point of view the decline isn't so seismic - I don't deny it's there, but it's within the sort of worst case scenario I'd envisaged. What would be totally unnacceptable would be if we were getting properly outplayed every week, and we actually very rarely are. I'd say we've edged the vast majority of matches in terms of balance of play, we've just lacked penetration and made too many shocking defensive lapses. Which, again, I'm not saying is great, or even good, but it's not the sea-change from where we were last season that it's made out to be.
So we come down to results. I will admit I did not expect us to be 7th and out of the FA Cup in the first week of January, that is below the acceptable range. However, as is often the way with football, it's true that the margins have been very fine, and but for the odd individual missed chance, stupid foul, or refereeing decision, we could easily be 4th. Bad as we've been, on another day we beat Spurs, Cardiff, Everton, Newcastle etc - we had more shots in all of those matches, which gives you a chance!
I don't mean to go all RAWK, but we've not been able to catch a break in the last couple of months, which has compounded our under-par performances.
See, I think the lines are much finer than that.
Yes, we've played some insipid football, but we haven't been thrillingly entertaining for the last couple of years. From that point of view the decline isn't so seismic - I don't deny it's there, but it's within the sort of worst case scenario I'd envisaged. What would be totally unnacceptable would be if we were getting properly outplayed every week, and we actually very rarely are. I'd say we've edged the vast majority of matches in terms of balance of play, we've just lacked penetration and made too many shocking defensive lapses. Which, again, I'm not saying is great, or even good, but it's not the sea-change from where we were last season that it's made out to be.
So we come down to results. I will admit I did not expect us to be 7th and out of the FA Cup in the first week of January, that is below the acceptable range. However, as is often the way with football, it's true that the margins have been very fine, and but for the odd individual missed chance, stupid foul, or refereeing decision, we could easily be 4th. Bad as we've been, on another day we beat Spurs, Cardiff, Everton, Newcastle etc - we had more shots in all of those matches, which gives you a chance!
I don't mean to go all RAWK, but we've not been able to catch a break in the last couple of months, which has compounded our under-par performances.
To sack him now would be stupid. Give him time until the summer at least. I am sure the club will give him another year even if we miss out on the CL, especially what Fergie said after his appointment
Fair enough, I was really thinking about Barca form the last 10 years or so (during which they became regarded as the best club team ever seen
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