Muslims and democracy

[Sultan]

nice post,can any of the muslims on here clarify what modernization of the muslim faith might entail?

Belief in God, his messengers, pray at prescribed times, help the poor, and if financially possible go on pilgrimage. What exactly do you want modernising amongst these fundamentals?

I consider myself as a very strict Muslim, yet I'm still be able fully practice my faith, live in a thriving democracy (UK), I vote, employ, pay taxes, and have a criminal free record. Fortunately, I've not been called up by my country for it's defence - If I was to be called up I would be happy to contribute.

 

[jdmufc]

Belief in God, his messengers, pray at prescribed times, help the poor, and if financially possible go on pilgrimage. What exactly do you want modernising amongst these fundamentals?

I consider myself as a very strict Muslim, yet I'm still be able fully practice my faith, live in a thriving democracy (UK) I vote, employ, pay taxes, and have a criminal free record. Fortunately, I've not been called up by my country for it's defence - If I was to be called up I would be happy to contribute.

Il-Duce mentioned modernization in his previous post,i just wondered what this might entail or was it strictly meant as democracy would modernize countries ruled by muslim law?

 

[africanspur]

The problem is, many Muslims have gone into a state where looks are the most important thing. Do you 'look' Muslim? Are you wearing a galabiya and sporting a huge unkempt beard? Do you have the indentation in your forehead that indicates you spend a huge amount of time bowed to God? Are you wearing the hijab or even niqab?

These show that you are a 'pious' Muslim. I've spent a lot of time in the ME, especially Egypt as that is where my wife is from. But its all appearances. The man who looks like an Islamic scholar jumps over the metro turnstiles. Effectively stealing from the state. The woman in the hijab wears tighter clothing than most non-Muslim women and walks along smoking weed. The woman in the niqab almost punches me out of the way so that there is no chance of me approaching her. The man with the indentation in his forehead feeling up a woman on a crowded bus. My 'pious' nephew telling my son it is haram to shave his back when my son jokingly tells him to do so, despite the fact he never prays.

All things like that. Go back to the important fundamentals of Islam. Praying. Giving and helping the poor. Cleanliness and hygiene. A focus on education for both boys and girls. Treating others with respect. Not judging or instructing others. All within the confines of a system that allows free speech, discussion and equal rights for all.

 

[Sultan]

Il-Duce mentioned modernization in his previous post,i just wondered what this might entail or was it strictly meant as democracy would modernize countries ruled by muslim law?

What do you mean modernise?

 

[jdmufc]

What do you mean modernise?

i have no idea,i didn't bring it up,that's why i asked for clarification,now stop asking me what i mean and answer the damn question!!

 

[Sultan]

i have no idea,i didn't bring it up,that's why i asked for clarification,now stop asking me what i mean and answer the damn question!!

Is there some link where Muslim states lack modernisation due to religion? I'd say any lack of modernity will be linked to lack of resources.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

I suspect what is meant by 'modernise' is actually 'liberalise'.

 

[kouroux]

Il-Duce mentioned modernization in his previous post,i just wondered what this might entail or was it strictly meant as democracy would modernize countries ruled by muslim law?

Like Sultan says, modernize is too vague.Is it about the economical development of countries or something else ?

 

[IL_DUCE]

The Muslim diversity is surely as great as among us. This is easy to forget when all we see and hear about is cases of conflict, terrorism, religious fanaticism and immigration-related issues etc. It is therefore important to be aware that the unknown and hidden often proves to be exciting, beautiful and educational....

I for one can not wait for her to have the right to:
- Vote
- Express her self freely
- Dress up the way she want
-
-
-
- Let me have the opportunity to get to know her (attributes, culture and nation) outside of marriage.

Thinking about it, I'm actually a supporter of Muslim democratization.
This; both for me (The Western world) and her (The Muslim world).


Edit:
When it comes to modernization;
The modernization of Muslim countries will probably look something like this:
- democratization
- Greater transparency means that Western people will discover that we are more alike than we think
- trade, tourism and economy will flourish
- economic conditions for modernization is improved
- Greater knowledge means that Western people will discover that we have previously stigmatized Muslims, and that we have the same desire and need for peace, freedom, respect, love............

 

[Sultan]

Oppressed or lifestyle choice?

 

[phelans shorts]

What day is it Twitter? « SportyMuslimah

 

[Interval]

Oppressed or lifestyle choice?

Not that I want to get drawn into this but choice being crux. Is it really a choice in most places?

 

[Sultan]

Not that I want to get drawn into this but choice being crux. Is it really a choice in most places?

Granted not in every country.

 

[Interval]

Granted not in every country.

Thats an understatement though, isn't it? I can count the countries where such choice is given on my finger tips.

That said, I guess, it isn't only a religious thing. Oppression is a widespread thing round the world in all spheres. Humans just don't get the concept of individualism too well.

 

[africanspur]

I won't pretend that I know indepth the laws of every Islamic country and I know some of them do try to enforce the wearing of the hijab in some way or another but the niqab? I don't think there are too many that enforce as law the wearing of the face covering.

 

[Mick1991]

I was reading the second Sura last week (The Cow?, I think) and the bit on divorce really surprised me, it's very practical and modern.

They really want happy families, where women shouldn't feel oppressed (I'm sure most aren't and I'm sure my attitude towards Islam and women comes from my general reading of the news) and have the right to be with the man they want.

Doesn't really add anything here but it did shock me a little.

 

[africanspur]

I think Islam's position on women (the actual religion, not the current adherents, most of whom are about as Muslim as the Blue Riband bar I just ate) would surprise quite a few people to be honest.

The mixing of religion, ancient culture and a dominant attitude of patriarchy prevalent within many of these countries has been presented to the outside world as the religion. It is not.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

A religion is only what people make of it.

 

[VidaRed]

Over a century has past.

The West still has a tight grip on the throats of ME, Pakistan, and Afghanistan.

They allowed themselves to be ruled by the west for there personal selfish agendas. Specially the ME rulers.

 

[IL_DUCE]

Most people adapt (consciously or unconsciously) a life style that conforms to one's civilizations moral-, social and religious rules. Many people enjoy this, some learn to accept it while others have to challenge the rules in order to thrive. All countries that do not accept, recognize and/or respect such challenges must be said to exercise oppression in greater or lesser extent.

Often, family, neighbors, friends and local community the greatest oppressor. However, it is in cases where the state actively and systematically are involved in repression and deprivation of liberty that one can truly call himself oppressed.

Muslim countries and people are different just as is the case among western countries and people. The what extent different communities, countries and people are oppressed and/or socially directed into different life styles must be viewed in the light of a number of factors that one is unable to, without local historical- and cultural knowledge. But, if large populations in a country feel oppressed, there is much pointing in the direction that this is the case imo. Based on this logic, I think many Muslim countries have to accept to be labeled as oppressive. (Women's rights may represent an example)

 

[VidaRed]

after ww2 the whole middle east was moving towards democracy and were more inclined towards leftist policies and the west couldn't allow that to happen because they would be in the soviet sphere so they funded dictators and religious fanatics like the wahabis in saudi arabia.

 

[Sultan]

Most people adapt (consciously or unconsciously) a life style that conforms to one's civilizations moral-, social and religious rules. Many people enjoy this, some learn to accept it while others have to challenge the rules in order to thrive. All countries that do not accept, recognize and/or respect such challenges must be said to exercise oppression in greater or lesser extent.

Often, family, neighbors, friends and local community the greatest oppressor. However, it is in cases where the state actively and systematically are involved in repression and deprivation of liberty that one can truly call himself oppressed.

Muslim countries and people are different just as is the case among western countries and people. The what extent different communities, countries and people are oppressed and/or socially directed into different life styles must be viewed in the light of a number of factors that one is unable to, without local historical- and cultural knowledge. But, if large populations in a country feel oppressed, there is much pointing in the direction that this is the case imo. Based on this logic, I think many Muslim countries have to accept to be labeled as oppressive. (Women's rights may represent an example)

Granted women are not treated as well as is their right in many Muslim countries. However, to claim the women in the West are liberalised is also up for discussion. It can be argued, and I have heard many women say this so called liberalism is a disguised form of exploiting her body, soul, and honour. It can be argued it has actually degraded them to the status of mistresses and society trophies wrapped up behind the disguise of liberalism.

 

[IL_DUCE]

Granted women are not treated as well as is their right in many Muslim countries. However, to claim the women in the West are liberalised is also up for discussion. It can be argued, and I have heard many women say this so called liberalism is a disguised form of exploiting her body, soul, and honour. It can be argued it has actually degraded them to the status of mistresses and society trophies wrapped up behind the disguise of liberalism.

Most countries are practicing repression to a greater or lesser extent. However, it is difficult to see such things in our own civilization as we are socially indoctrinated to accept them. It is much easier to detect such circumstances and criticize them in other civilizations.

Even though every country probably has its own challenges related to suppression, countries that deny their citizens basic human rights will still stand out in a global sense of the term. Such oppression appears thus as a natural area of ​​focus.

The best way to reduce presence of repression is in my view democracy. In any case, this is a political tool to prevent powerful minorities from suppressing large populations. Anyway. Dictatorship challenge democracy, not Islam. Muslims are victims of dictatorship, not the source of it. Current events in the Muslim world support this

 

[Tibs]

No such thing as democracy - it's all bullshit.

HTH

 

[kouroux]

No such thing as democracy - it's all bullshit.

HTH

X100 and democracy isn't the guarantee of happiness

 

[IL_DUCE]

No such thing as democracy - it's all bullshit.

HTH

Agreed. Therefore, we should all on the basis of democratic principles be allowed to choose the preferable kind of bullshit.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Where has all this 'no such thing as democracy' nonsense come from?

 

[IL_DUCE]

Where has all this 'no such thing as democracy' nonsense come from?

Democracy in its purest or most ideal form would be a society in which all adult citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives.

On the basis of the most extreme definition, the nonsense is actually 100% true.

 

[JezChan]

No such thing as democracy - it's all bullshit.

HTH

In a capitalist democracy we're all slaves to the market. Fight the power, marxism ftw etc. etc.

 

[Kaos]

In a capitalist democracy we're all slaves to the market. Fight the power, marxism ftw etc. etc.

I don't think the democratic deficiencies are simply down to the unforgiving nature of capitalism itself. The UK for example has an arguably unfair electoral system, whereas the US is plagued with a corporate-dominated, two-party monopoly.

 

[africanspur]

Where has all this 'no such thing as democracy' nonsense come from?

Just in the UK in the recent past, the British people would have voted down a move to invade Iraq had it gone to referendum. More people voted against the Conservatives than for them and not a single person in the country voted for a Tory-Lib Dem coalition. Yet that is the very group currently making every decision in the country (without bringing the people in to decide on every decision, which I guess is the true 'literal' meaning of a democracy).

But yes, such a thing is probably impossible and impractical in real life.

 

[Team Brian GB]

The only thing I am going to say in this thread is that religion has little to do with why many countries in the Middle East are authoritarian.

They are authoritarian and have little in the way of a liberal democratic culture because they are underdeveloped socially and economically.

 

[Dumbstar]

I was reading the second Sura last week (The Cow?, I think) and the bit on divorce really surprised me, it's very practical and modern.

They really want happy families, where women shouldn't feel oppressed (I'm sure most aren't and I'm sure my attitude towards Islam and women comes from my general reading of the news) and have the right to be with the man they want.

Doesn't really add anything here but it did shock me a little.

Mick, good on you for embarking on some fact finding mission even if it wasn't wholly relevant to this thread. Hope more follow your example.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Just in the UK in the recent past, the British people would have voted down a move to invade Iraq had it gone to referendum. More people voted against the Conservatives than for them and not a single person in the country voted for a Tory-Lib Dem coalition. Yet that is the very group currently making every decision in the country (without bringing the people in to decide on every decision, which I guess is the true 'literal' meaning of a democracy).

But yes, such a thing is probably impossible and impractical in real life.

It's called Representative Democracy, and it's far better than Direct Democracy.

Actually, if I remember rightly, British opinion polls at the time of the Iraq invasion were something like 44% in favour, and 41% against.

EDIT: Yeah, I've found the Gallup Poll from 2003:

Country		Yes	No
United Kingdom	44%	41%
Finland		5%	79%
Spain		16%	73%
Germany		24%	71%
Ireland		26%	69%
Luxembourg	32%	62%
France		29%	61%
Portugal	37%	55%
Netherlands	35%	52%
Denmark		42%	51%

 

[theimperialinn]

Just in the UK in the recent past, the British people would have voted down a move to invade Iraq had it gone to referendum. More people voted against the Conservatives than for them and not a single person in the country voted for a Tory-Lib Dem coalition. Yet that is the very group currently making every decision in the country (without bringing the people in to decide on every decision, which I guess is the true 'literal' meaning of a democracy).

But yes, such a thing is probably impossible and impractical in real life.

Are we supposed to have a referendum on every single big decision made?

Most people may not have voted Tory but they had by far the most votes.

Who do you suggest should be in power?

 

[africanspur]

It's called Representative Democracy.

Actually, if I remember rightly, British opinion polls at the time of the Iraq invasion were something like 44% in favour, and 41% against.

EDIT: Yeah, I've found the Gallup Poll from 2003:

Country		Yes	No
United Kingdom	44%	41%
Finland		5%	79%
Spain		16%	73%
Germany		24%	71%
Ireland		26%	69%
Luxembourg	32%	62%
France		29%	61%
Portugal	37%	55%
Netherlands	35%	52%
Denmark		42%	51%

Yes, I know it is but that was the point, that it isn't pure democracy.

Those numbers were based on Blair's 'WMD in 45 minutes lie'. The numbers switched around when asked whether or not they were in support of the invasion if Iraq did not have WMDs.

And the British public were also hugely in favour of waiting longer for the weapons inspections to be allowed to conclude before taking any further action.

 

[africanspur]

Are we supposed to have a referendum on every single big decision made?

Most people may not have voted Tory but they had by far the most votes.

Who do you suggest should be in power?

Eh? I've said myself that a pure democracy is impractical and impossible.

I was answering Mike's question about why people are saying there isn't 'real' democracy. Because in a 'real' democracy, in the pure sense, we would be having referendums on every big decision.

There is nothing wrong with the system now. But it isn't 'pure' democracy.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

You vote for people to represent you - that's how democracy works. Democracy means you have a say in how you are governed and by whom. It does not mean that you yourself have to be in charge.

California tried direct democracy and guess what happened, people voted for a lot of public services, and also voted for a lot of tax cuts which practically bankrupted the state.

 

[Tibs]

Do the people voted in, have the right to change their minds on policy, once in power? Is that democratic?

Example: Lib Dems and Uni fees

 

[africanspur]

Again, I'm not saying that its a bad system or that I would prefer a pure democracy. Just that we do not have democracy in its most literal sense.

And as Churchill said 'Democracy is the worst form of governing, except all the others'.