Being late is so unprofessional and disrespectful. So the people on time have nothing better to do?
Nemanja Matic talks about players' disciplinary issues during his spell with United
- Thread starter Chicharo
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To be fair we’ve always had wayward players, flash players, players who treated women badly, players who got into fights, players who were alcoholics and gamblers, bad trainers, lateness, granny shaggers, cheating, terrible interviews, dressing room and training fights and god knows what else. The difference is they were very well managed. If they kept stepping out of line they were gone. If they weren’t doing it on the pitch they were gone either way. If they went soft and stoped caring as much about winning they were out. If you’re showing up and doing the business the manager or club would at least try to protect you and keep you on the straight and narrow and show you the right path. The older players would kick your ass if you got too big for your boots. Now the older players are all mercenaries. The younger players clearly have their own thing since Pogba Lingard Rashford etc. There’s simply been way too much power and money there for not nearly enough success.
Again, what are our managers doing?
We keep making all the excuses in the world for them...injuries, the ownership, the recruitment etc...but this is real basic, basic stuff.
Do we think Pep would settle for players showing up late? Would Klopp?
It's completely and utterly unacceptable. If you're late two or three times without good reason, you're out, gone. We've a squad of 23 to coach and drill against a strict timetable. If you can't be bothered to be on time, go wreck your own career somewhere else and don't let it impact the group
We keep making all the excuses in the world for them...injuries, the ownership, the recruitment etc...but this is real basic, basic stuff.
Do we think Pep would settle for players showing up late? Would Klopp?
It's completely and utterly unacceptable. If you're late two or three times without good reason, you're out, gone. We've a squad of 23 to coach and drill against a strict timetable. If you can't be bothered to be on time, go wreck your own career somewhere else and don't let it impact the group
Jose tried to fight them publicly when nothing was working behind the scenes they got him fired.
Ralf they didn’t play for at all.
Ole let them govern themselves by the sounds of what Matic was saying. They stopped playing for him once ronaldo came in and called them out for being lazy and shite.
Same thing with ETH.
God forbid someone tries to instil some standards and hurts the players feelings. ETH did better at Ajax because he was fully backed by the club and by default then the players too. We don’t have that.
The people in charge side with the players over the manager. There's nothing any manager can do until that changes.
A manager can’t sell a player. It’s up to the club. When a manager is forced to keep players that aren’t up to it, it destroys standards.
Glazers are ultimately responsible here.
Good to see we’re getting cracking on that last bit already. Minus the purging.
ETH has already publicly shamed Rashford and Garnacho for being late. The former was dropped from a matchday squad as punishment. You can bet your arse that a similar lack of application was the trigger for Sanchogate.
For all we know ETH is being extremely strict about stuff like that. All available evidence points towards that being the case while he’s in charge. Although it’s also looking as though the response to this strict approach is some of the players downing tools.
It sounds daft but loads of clubs have things like that. It's club fines. Late to training £5, forgot socks or kit £20, that sort of thing, and it goes into a kitty for things like parties and club stuff. It's just the scale that's odd I guess but it's understandable - what's a £5 fine do for a millionaire?
This kind of thing just makes me hate the whole sport, to be honest.
Ask yourself, do you think Mourinho gave Martial his current contract that runs until the end of this season? Or Bailly's under Ole?
Is it really Mourinho who renewed a crock Rojo's contract, or Ole renewed Phil Jones? Renewed Henderson on a big wage when he's yet to play for us, just to send him out on loan and? And wonder why we couldn't rid DDG because we made him the best paid GK in the whole world despite known issue?
I’ve asked before for actual examples of posters apologising for Sancho, I’ll ask again. . .Matic outing Sancho. Of course!
Where are you shill Sancho apologist fvcks now, that was so prominent in the Sancho thread throwing shade at ten Hag?
I think he is just really hurt he didn’t win anything at United and blames culture/other players for the lack of results.
If the discipline was such issue then there is no surprise the results are what they were.
Sir Alex had the grip on the players that no one has anymore.
I would square the penalty. Start at £2000. It would settle down quickly.
2000 4000 16000 256000 .... no one is late more than four times
2000 4000 16000 256000 .... no one is late more than four times
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I think another problem was that our Chief Exec and owners saw brand and sponsorship as more important as well. Imagine how little motivation you'd have to perform on the pitch and in training if your boss's bosses were wanking themselves senseless over the club's social media reach all the time.
Its funny that everyone with a famously professional attitude to the game leaves this club and are embarrassed by the standards in the dressing room. Almost like the club has been rotting since Fergie left.
I don't doubt that he's a strict disciplinarian off the pitch but he's making the same mistake OGS and Jose made by allowing the same slackness and poor attitudes to manifest on the pitch without taking serious steps to address it.
Take Jose, as an example. Publicly fell out with Pogba, but still periodically selected him. Criticised Martial but still periodically selected him. I'm sure there were others but those two examples spring to mind.
OGS was even worse by the end. Some of the players were taking the absolute p**s. He'd drop them for a game or two and then go straight back to them.
Now, granted, both of those had Ed Woodward to deal with. We know he valued commercial appeal and also treated players like physical assets on a balance sheet, which is completely the wrong approach.
EtH doesn't have that problem. He can't claim he hasn't been supported. He sidelined Ronaldo and ultimately saw him off. He stripped Maguire of the captaincy. He released DDG on a free. He has frozen out Sancho. Varane has been demoted to 6th choice. The club has supported him in all those actions.
So my point (and question) is, why is he tolerating the laziness we saw from Dalot in the Carabao Cup game vs Newcastle and the home game against Galatasary? Why is he tolerating Martial? Why is he tolerating Rashford?
You know what would make a statement...Martial, banned from the training ground. Rashford dropped and made available for transfer. Send a message that laziness and a poor attitude will never be tolerated.
If that means playing Joe Hugill at CF then do it. At this point, the fans would support him. And I'm not talking about dropping players for mistakes (like Onana) or lack of goals/assists (Hojlund/Antony)...I'm talking about punishing the cry-babies who sulk around the pitch and don't want to put the effort in.
The manager can drop these wasters, don't even select them for the bench. And tell the media exactly why, let the wasters spout their nonsense on social media all they want, it would be a warning to other clubs to avoid them.
They can sulk but eventually might become professional or run down their contracts training alone.
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When you don't respect your teamates you should be out of the club straight away. To many lazy, not well behaved, uneducated people in our club.
They should be ashamed of themself. But I guess they aren't.
Because of their ridiculous wages, penalties should be 50-100 bigger. Minimum.
They should be ashamed of themself. But I guess they aren't.
Because of their ridiculous wages, penalties should be 50-100 bigger. Minimum.
Makes perfect sense when fines were a tenner and the party was at the local pub.
£75k in a year is an irrelevance for a single player. Let alone a whole squad. Had that number been £7.5m it would have been valid. £300k per player across a season would be approaching a reasonable fine level.
How can you earn £300k/week and have fines of £250-1500k and expect that punishment to change behaviour? It’s pointless.
Beyond that… spending £75k on a players party is disgusting.
That needs at least one extra zero on it.
Well maybe this can be that season?
Defenders: Varane, Maguire, Licha, Evans, Lindelof. Varane seems a shoe in to leave, Evans we won't extend. Lindelof is out of contract in the summer. We'll realistically go from 5 CBs to 2.
Full backs: AWB ,Dalot, Shaw, Reguillon, Williams, Malacia, Fernandez. Likely minimal movement here bar Reguillon leaving and we'll likely sell Williams.
CM: Case, Amrabat, McT, Eriksen, Bruno, Mount, VdB, Mainoo, Hannibal. Expect huge churn here - Case, Amrabat, Eriksen, VdB will all leave for sure and we've obviously tried to sell McT before.
Attackers: Martial, Hojlund, Rashford, Antony, Garnacho, Pellestri, Amad, Shoretire, Greenwood. Martial leaves and I reckon, unfortunately, the club will try and bring Greenwood back in as a striker rather than buying anyone.
I think it's - in a non exaggerated way - going to be our biggest period for departures in Jan/summer that we've ever seen with Varane, Case, Evans, Eriksen, VdB, Amrabat and Martial all leaving/contracts expiring. If we replace them with sensible younger players I think the future can look very bright but this season will obviously be an average one.
My thoughts exactly. These guys have lost all touch with reality when £75k has been gathered in fines for a fecking party. I haven't spent close to that on 20 years of partying combined.
That’s a good post. I would say he knows he’s lost someone like Rashford and he’s just trying to get him to play for his own pride at this point.. The embarrassment will finally snap him out of it, we are worse off without him in the longer term etc. It’s a risky strategy that hasn’t paid off one bit yet. You would think now with everyone turning on Rashford he might buckle and knuckle down but I don’t think so. He’s just doing what he did before every manager got sacked. Continuing on the noble tradition. He’s probably got more power than the manager with the owners when it comes down to it. Let that sink in.
Some people are wired weirdly. Howson said that a former player of ours (I won't mention the name here) would skip training 3 weeks in a row knowing that his club (not Man United) could only cut 2 weeks of salary per month. Thus he was 'gaining' a week salary for free. That's why its important to have DOFs that have huge connections to the game. These people would know what is happening on the training pitch and what sort of character that player is
In fairness to Ten Hag it's probably safe to assume this doesnt happen under him since we know for a fact he fines and drops players who turn up late, and exiles players who repeatedly step out of line.
The problem is he's still having the same issues on the pitch, and the likes of Pogba and Lingard are gone so you can't even blame it on the same clique of players.
The club has been mismanaged from the top for so long its just festered itself into being an ingrained culture/motivational issue. You don't motivate players at a club with Man Utd's stature by fining or selling any who turn up late. You motivate them by convincing them that if they don't get themselves sold, they'll end up with a Pl/CL winner's medal.
I'm not sure why anyone thinks Radcliffe is going to change that or address it. The Glazers will still be the owners and the primary motivation of the club will still be to make them money.
Herein lies the issue though, because we all know what problems Jose, OGS and LvG faced, with regard transfers and terrible contract renewals - but ultimately the XI they put out onto the field on a Saturday is on them.
At this point, Antony Martial should never play for Manchester United again. That should have been true after OGS left. Yet here we are, December 2023, and EtH starts him as a lone CF in a Premier League game. What message does that send?
This is true in part but you can't build a team capable of winning major trophies by tolerating lateness, poor body language and lack of effort. Effort, good time-keeping and enthusiasm should be non-negotiables, regardless of whom is sat in the dugout or the Boardroom.
There are individuals out there who don't slacken off at the first opportunity, who don't lose confidence after minor setbacks, who see adversity as a challenge, who relish the big occasion. Who take responsibility for their own fitness and performances.
These are the kind of characters we need to find. You don't try to change the nature of the players you have, you get rid of them and keep looking.
That would go £2k, £4m, £16tn...
It does have a certain "three strikes and you're definitely out," kinda vibe to it.
Whose decision what that to start these players like Martial? Martial can't simply pick himself, can he? Or you're saying player power is too great that ETH can't pick the XI he really wants too? Who last season pretty much allowed Martial to go back into the team as our main CF after a disastrous loan to Sevilla, only for him to out injured most of the time?
No denying there is issue from the owner, upper management that hasn't been resolved. ETH was not helped in comparison to someone like De Zerbi, Eddie Howe...However, the head coach, first team management itself is currently having issues too. Everyone and their dogs know we need two CF signings for this season. Instead, ETH prioritized last piece of the puzzle signing like expensive ball playing GK, whose ability ironically is not currently being utilized.
The message ETh sent this season explicitly or underlyingly via performance/tactic is: he's going the wrong direction. He outright told the world publicly that he wants us to be the best transition team in the world. The style of play and player selections has been reflecting the transition football principles, but the execution is predictably poor. Who wants a Dutch manager with most of his first team coaching experience is from Netherlands to coach counter attacking football? Nobody wants him here to play a worse version of Oleball. There is ZERO excuses on this part.
I don't agree with all the individual stuff in this post but I do think it hits the nail right on the head with the general point.
There are two problems with applying strict standards.
Firstly, it has to be consistent. There's no point banishing a player for a poor attitude, and then repeatedly picking others who visibly display a poor attitude during a game (which is if anything much worse than slacking in training or a team meeting). There's no point forcing everyone to go on a 14k run for not working hard enough,if the next time they do it you let them off Scott free. It doesn't make you look strict at that point it makes you look weak and sends confusing signals to the players about what the standards even are and who they apply to.
Yes we don't know what ETH does or says behind the scenes but we can all see Rashford sulking or Martial not bothering to do his job, and yet they still get put in a starting line up for a vital game.The only way you enforce standards is by applying them to everyone, all the time. If that means an u19 is ahead of Marcus Rashford until he gets his act together, then that's what it means. It's easy to say and would take a lot of guts to actually do but at this point I'm not even sure the fans wouldn't support ETH on something like that.
Secondly though, imposing strict discipline, standards etc. Only really works if you convince the players to buy into it enough that it's almost voluntary. If they are doing it purely to avoid punishment it's not a motivational factor and it will have a ahelf life. It needs to come from them WANTING to impress and push themselves, and that only comes from convincing them that the reward is worth it. Which means convincing them you're going to win titles and it's up to them to prove they can be part of it. Not really sure signing Mount to compete with the best central midfielders in the world, or having the training ground, stadium etc. fall apart while the owners can't even decide who the owners should be, is the best way to instill such a belief.
I am agreeing with you. I'm saying it was EtHs decision to start Martial so it's on him.
People will point to the Glazers. They will point to Arnold and Murtough...but they're not picking the team, EtH is.
We can all see we've been extremely poorly run at Board level, but none of that excuses picking Martial and then seemingly appearing confused and angry by a lack of pressing/effort.
Bigger picture, my point about player power is that the likes of Martial and Rashford believe managers will go before they do...but personally I'd rather die on my sword (and I believe the likes of Pep/Klopp would too) by freezing them out and picking players who had some desire to fight.
Agree.
That's why currently even those who originally wanted ETH (me included if anyone want to put me on shame list), are baffled by his decisions. There is just ZERO excuses, when he was in the empowered position to push this board to rid many of the issues. He pushed Ronaldo out. Martial would be just small fry in comparison if ETH truly wanted. What ETH did instead was wrongly prioritizing expensive signings in less prioritized position, when fund was needed to reinforce more urgent position.
I used to work for a guy in London who threw the best Christmas parties ever.75 Grand in fines for a season and they were going to blow it on a party?
feck me.
That's how much my 1st house cost in '99
VIP area Movida and other exclusive clubs. £75k will last about 60 minutes.
£10k bottles of champagne with sparklers in ferried across the club, ludicrously priced spirits.
For 25 rich lads I’d put the bill at nearer £500k - have to pay for all the girls in the area too!!
You’re describing a scam being sold to classless idiots, Not a good night.
I worked at a Hedge Fund for a while. They had nonsensical nights like this. It’s just rich chav culture.
Well quite. I’m just saying how much all of that costs.
I once had a heated argument with Jens Lehman at one of these do’s.
He was fecking huge!!
Also kinda met Big Jens once. At a regular boozer in Finsbury Park. I didn’t go and say hello but my Gooner mate did. His response… “feck off I’m reading my book. feck off. Just feck off” Absolute unit.
Matic just spitting facts with no trace of agenda or bitterness, hard to not think he is telling the truth, sickening lack of professionalism.
I have seen other clubs drop players for not turning up to training e.g. would be nice if ours faced consequences and were arsed to earn their wages.
I have seen other clubs drop players for not turning up to training e.g. would be nice if ours faced consequences and were arsed to earn their wages.
Obviously we don’t know if the club or coaching staff did take any addition action against the persistent latecomers but it struck me as odd that it kept happening so often with the same players that the other players had to try and tackle it amongst themselves.