New Stadium or Revamp Old Trafford

[G3079]

It’s an initial investment. We’d clearly need a long term loan for a new stadium, like pretty much every other club on the planet that has built a new stadium. How do you think the likes of Real, Bayern etc did it?

Well, Real massively overshot the estimated cost and almost tripled their initial 525m Euro estimate to a whopping 1.4b, partially due to feature creep, partially due to inflation, and of course due to (totally not intentional) underestimation of cost. Who knows if they would have even gotten the go-ahead with a more realistic cost estimate instead of this piecemeal increase. None of which seems to bother anyone at Real because apparently moneyprinter go brrrrr or whatever creative accounting lets them stay clear of FFP despite taking on all those loans.

Bayern is a different story. First of all, Bayern did not do that alone. Back then TSV Munich was still a bigger and financially more capable club, and was part of the stadium project. Both clubs held a 50% share in the company that owned and built the stadium before TSV had to sell their half to Bayern to cope with their financial issues, so the financial burden and risk was not resting on Bayern's shoulders alone. Location also plays a big role - they've built their new stadium outside the city proper, next to a motorway, meaning cheaper land. The land price was drastically lowered further when the city rededicated the land from industrial estate to special use, lowering the cost from €85m to €14m Euro. Land development and infrastructure were financed with public funding of ~€210m instead of having to spend club money, another big advantage. The build cost for the stadium itself only rang up at €286m, and a total cost including financing etc. of €340m. Good luck trying to build a new stadium of comparable size these days for that much.
Furthermore Bayern was able to service their loans a full 14 years earlier than initially expected when they sold a minority share of the club to Allianz in 2014. In addition to those shares Allianz got the stadium name rights all the way until into the 2040s out of the deal - in retrospect an extremely cheap deal for them, stadium name rights from 2014 until 2041 and 8.33% club shares for €110m is an absolute steal by today's standards. But of course it is also a big advantage for Bayern that they have gotten out of the loan payments so much earlier than what was estimated.


As for Old Trafford... personally, I'd love if the old stadium was revamped, but the question is of partially how much that is even feasible without ending up with a ship of Theseus where you basically had to rebuild everything if what is there just cannot be worked with. In that case it might just end up being more expensive than a new stadium, especially if you include stand closures and secondary use diminishment due to construction work. That will have to be calculated by architects and club accountants. In the end, if it is much cheaper and much more feasible to build a new stadium, then financial prudence should be important than nostalgia.

 

[lex talionis]

I've come around on this, despite my personal professional interest in historic preservation: near Old Trafford down and rebuild.

 

[Dan_F]

Well, Real massively overshot the estimated cost and almost tripled their initial 525m Euro estimate to a whopping 1.4b, partially due to feature creep, partially due to inflation, and of course due to (totally not intentional) underestimation of cost. Who knows if they would have even gotten the go-ahead with a more realistic cost estimate instead of this piecemeal increase. None of which seems to bother anyone at Real because apparently moneyprinter go brrrrr or whatever creative accounting lets them stay clear of FFP despite taking on all those loans.

Bayern is a different story. First of all, Bayern did not do that alone. Back then TSV Munich was still a bigger and financially more capable club, and was part of the stadium project. Both clubs held a 50% share in the company that owned and built the stadium before TSV had to sell their half to Bayern to cope with their financial issues, so the financial burden and risk was not resting on Bayern's shoulders alone. Location also plays a big role - they've built their new stadium outside the city proper, next to a motorway, meaning cheaper land. The land price was drastically lowered further when the city rededicated the land from industrial estate to special use, lowering the cost from €85m to €14m Euro. Land development and infrastructure were financed with public funding of ~€210m instead of having to spend club money, another big advantage. The build cost for the stadium itself only rang up at €286m, and a total cost including financing etc. of €340m. Good luck trying to build a new stadium of comparable size these days for that much.
Furthermore Bayern was able to service their loans a full 14 years earlier than initially expected when they sold a minority share of the club to Allianz in 2014. In addition to those shares Allianz got the stadium name rights all the way until into the 2040s out of the deal - in retrospect an extremely cheap deal for them, stadium name rights from 2014 until 2041 and 8.33% club shares for €110m is an absolute steal by today's standards. But of course it is also a big advantage for Bayern that they have gotten out of the loan payments so much earlier than what was estimated.


As for Old Trafford... personally, I'd love if the old stadium was revamped, but the question is of partially how much that is even feasible without ending up with a ship of Theseus where you basically had to rebuild everything if what is there just cannot be worked with. In that case it might just end up being more expensive than a new stadium, especially if you include stand closures and secondary use diminishment due to construction work. That will have to be calculated by architects and club accountants. In the end, if it is much cheaper and much more feasible to build a new stadium, then financial prudence should be important than nostalgia.

Infrastructure doesn’t impact on FFP as far as I understand. It’s why Barca were able to renovate the Nou Camp despite their issues. Good knowledge on the Allianz. As with everything that club does, it seems like they’ve made a lot of shrewd decisions.

In my limited opinion, a new stadium is likely to work far better in the long run if it can be built adjacent to OT, keeping that match day revenue for as long as possible during the build. Unfortunately with recent inflation, we have probably missed the best opportunity to renovate thanks to the Glazers squeezing everything out of what they already had, rather than being proactive.

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

This is the company that is responsible for the new stadium build and they also built the new Spurs stadium.
Here is their website where you can see their other project

https://populous.com/our-projects


Article from The Telegraph about them

From death traps to plush heated seats: How Populous changed the face of football stadiums

 

[Redplane]

Reading the last few pages it seems more people are coming around to the idea of new - and yeah the article talking about the economic reasons for it probably helps. Bigger point is really: whatever gets it done quicker. If that is still a reno and it can truly compete with newer stadiums again after that - do that, if not - build new. The club has been stagnant on too many fronts for years now and nostalgia while important - isn't going to move it forward when you want to attract the latest and greatest.

I'll again reiterate though that if it is going to be new - that it will truly be unique. A place that like the current - will instantly be recognizable as the home of United. I realize the Allianz and places like Arsenal stadium have set new trends for modern footie stadium design - but please come up with an alternative whoever is designing this. Give it something truly unique, even if it is simply recreating parts of the current stands in a modern jacket. Make it another footie temple, not just a place for people to park their seats in cushy seats for 90 mins.

 

[Hughie77]

I'd love a total rebuild of the stadium. I can't see it happening in the near future. The only thing I can see happening is a revamp of whats already there.. . Fix all the issues .

I think we've all seen the mock up on YouTube. To go over the rail way could be realy expensive..

 

[matt10000]

You don't tear down a Cathedral and build a new one.

You maintain, improve and expand your Cathedral.

OT IS A CATHEDRAL

 

[Pexbo]

You don't tear down a Cathedral and build a new one.

You maintain, improve and expand your Cathedral.

OT IS A CATHEDRAL

It’s a decrepit football stadium mate

 

[VP89]

You don't tear down a Cathedral and build a new one.

You maintain, improve and expand your Cathedral.

OT IS A CATHEDRAL

 

[matt10000]

It’s a decrepit football stadium mate

sacrilege

 

[Pexbo]

sacrilege

I mean it’s not wrong though is it?

 

[neon_badger]

It’s a decrepit football stadium mate

It's not a decrepit building, it's just over stretched and poorly maintained, this gives the impression of a dilapidated hovel. It's stagnated over the Glazers era like everything.

 

[astracrazy]

If a team of experts suggest that a new stadium would be the best course of action then perhaps we should listen to them. It won't be long until you burn through the cost of a new stadium revamping and updating OT but never see the improvements a new stadium would bring.

 

[Gordon Godot]

It's not a decrepit building, it's just over stretched and poorly maintained, this gives the impression of a dilapidated hovel. It's stagnated over the Glazers era like everything.

Its also cramped with limited scope to add space or new faciliites. I think a complete rebuild would be great but unlikely as long as Glazers around. Then the money need to finally buy them out could have funded a new stadium. So cant see it happening. Partial extension and refurb becomes only option

 

[Marwood]

It’s a decrepit football stadium mate

No it isn't.

Don't buy into all this nonsense that the ground and Carrington are squats.

Improvements needed yes but what we have now is still a very good stadium packed with history and heritage.

 

[philippexyz]

New stadium all the way. Manchester United is far bigger than that single piece of architecture(Old Trafford). It's time to move on.

 

[matt10000]

I mean it’s not wrong though is it?

…….you have been found guilty by the elders of the forum of blasphemy

 

[soapythecat]

Whilst we all get nostalgic about OT, deep down we all know it’s a rotting station and needs probably as much spending on it as it would to build new. I’m totoally in favour of a new stadium to move us forward.

 

[golden_blunder]

Build a new stadium and call it New Trafford

I’ve see this terrible idea before

 

[matt10000]

If a team of experts suggest that a new stadium would be the best course of action then perhaps we should listen to them. It won't be long until you burn through the cost of a new stadium revamping and updating OT but never see the improvements a new stadium would bring.

Team of experts will always say need a new stadium haha if you asked a builder should
i get you to fix up my house and extend it or do you think I shud pay you to build a new one and pay you to demolish and tidy up the old site etc what do you think these ‘experts’ will come up with?!?!

 

[NewGlory]

Can we keep a portion of it, say the Stretford end and build around that? Keeping a portion maintains some of the legacy and tradition.

We can't do literally that because we would have nowhere to play at, for couple years that it will take to build new stadium around Stretford End

That said, I agree with your approach of bringing pieces of the old to the new, 100%

Really good architects could build most of the new stadium in the style of Old Trafford and then, at the very end maybe move big parts of Old Trafford Facade over to the new one, so that inside it's all new, 90% of it can be built without touching Old Trafford but when all is said and done - style and literal pieces of Old Trafford are transferred, for history

Good architects have done things like this and if we have to build a new one, I think we should try something like that

 

[Plant0x84]

It’s a decrepit football stadium mate

It just isn’t. It isn’t even that old.

The north stand was built in 1995, the quadrants were improved in 2006. A comprehensive renovation and extra tier on the sir Bobby stand is all we need.

 

[alexanderplatz]

OT isn’t falling apart as is made out, however it is definitely showing its age. People say it’s cramped etc but a lot of newer stadiums aren’t actually that much larger inside either. New Wembley walkways etc aren’t that wide and it’s narrow enough in the concourse at spurs too and Arsenal as well for example. I’m sure there is more legroom in seats at those grounds but wouldn’t say it’s a huge difference either.

A big part of improving things at OT is the footprint around the ground, which is pretty muddled and untidy.
Obviously the roof needs sorting and the facades could do with updating too but a lot of the rest is fluff.
Do I want a ground where there’s better WiFi to encourage people to be on their phones even more during games? Or more food and drink stands so I have to get out of my seat ten times a half to make way for people coming and going?
Football stadiums are for watching football in, the people who turn up with no interest in even watching the game don’t need even more encouragement in my opinion. Appreciate I sound like a Luddite here but it’s how I’ve come to feel about stadiums in general having been to quite a few of them for games now.

 

[Champ]

INEOs are putting in close to £300m to improve infrastructure at both OT and the training ground.

They aren't going to build a new stadium, Sir Jim has pretty much stated this already, and the pledge of money into existing infrastructure backs this up. Pointless discussing it further really.

 

[Plant0x84]

INEOs are putting in close to £300m to improve infrastructure at both OT and the training ground.

They aren't going to build a new stadium, Sir Jim has pretty much stated this already, and the pledge of money into existing infrastructure backs this up. Pointless discussing it further really.

Initially. Please don’t make out that the investment will stop there. It clearly won’t.

Fans need to have some patience and allow ineos to get through the door before declaring them failures.

 

[MadDogg]

I’ve see this terrible idea before

While it's obviously not ideal, it pays homage to the original and would be better than naming it McDonald's Stadium or whatever.

How about 'Not as Old Trafford' or 'Newer Old Trafford'?

Unfortunately, if we do build a new one I'd be very surprised if we didn't sell naming rights to help pay for it. Alternatively, INEOS Stadium anyone?

 

[neon_badger]

Stadiums aren't built as untouchable permanent entities, they're designed to be updated, maintained, extended and renovation, this exists within the stadium over the past 6ish years the Manchester Suite 1000 cover capacity, the International suite 900 cover capacity, the Salford Suites 300 covers, and various parts of the South stand have been changed from 1970s travel lodge squalor to pretty smart modern rooms, nothing ground breaking but if you were visiting these rooms you wouldn't feel you were visiting a knackered stadium, these parts of the stadium are on a par with other highly regarded stadiums, its just been renovated very selectively in line with Glazernomics. It can be done, the issue of expanding the south stand is a different matter.

 

[Mainoldo]

Some of you would moan why did we change from Newton Heath.

 

[OldTrevil]

I've got on board with the idea of a new stadium after learning that United owns land big enough for it in the same location. With this fact, it wouldn't be smart to say the least going with a revamp to such an old structure given all the known issues of its surrounding space. With the same location, the new stadium can even borrow the old name with a slight twist like adding II anywhere among the other two words, and playing it 'mathsy' that the previous one was actually 1 Old Trafford, which is just Old Trafford. Or... adding I to the new one and saying the previous one was OT number 0.

 

[golden_blunder]

Initially. Please don’t make out that the investment will stop there. It clearly won’t.

Fans need to have some patience and allow ineos to get through the door before declaring them failures.

We hope it won’t obviously but 300m isn’t going to build another stadium, assuming it all goes towards the stadium off course (personally I don’t think it will).
Also I think the fact that the club could still be bought by someone else in 3 years may put them off over committing

 

[Thomas A.Anderson]

I’ve see this terrible idea before

If there's gonna be a new stadium, then we should follow Athletic Bilbao example. The old stadium was San Mames, the new stadium is San Mames.

And when we are at it, let's consult architects who worked on the new San Mames, because that building is magnificent. The best new stadium.

 

[Plant0x84]

We hope it won’t obviously but 300m isn’t going to build another stadium, assuming it all goes towards the stadium off course (personally I don’t think it will).
Also I think the fact that the club could still be bought by someone else in 3 years may put them off over committing

Have a read (if you haven’t already) of the ‘Ole was right’ Twitter thread about the SEC filing in the sale discussion.
Whilst it’s correct to say somebody *could* whip the club out from under INEOS, it is very difficult (almost impossible) from a legal stand point with all the protections built in to the contract for SJR - and I don’t think he has any intention of letting that happen. He seems intent on becoming the majority shareholder of the club and has said as much with his ‘in it for the long term’ statement. I feel like they are already commited, they wouldn’t walk into this deal with their eyes shut.

 

[Bubz27]

Bit of a nothing article. People who would make a killing designing a new stadium think a new stadium should be built

There's quite clearly a conversation to be had about which is more expensive, a new build or a revamp.

 

[Plant0x84]

Unfortunately, if we do build a new one I'd be very surprised if we didn't sell naming rights to help pay for it. Alternatively, INEOS Stadium anyone?

The Grenadier Ground.

 

[Plant0x84]

8 year plan anyone?
And yes, I know the source is appalling.

It is understood that INEOS plan to expand the capacity of Old Trafford to 90,000 – but the construction of a new stadium has not been ruled out if it is deemed to be the more cost-effective option.

Building a new stadium would allow United to continue playing at Old Trafford during the construction process whereas expansion could see the team re-based for up to two years.

It is estimated that a new stadium would cost close to £2billion.

 

[Fitchett]

It just isn’t. It isn’t even that old.

The north stand was built in 1995, the quadrants were improved in 2006. A comprehensive renovation and extra tier on the sir Bobby stand is all we need.

Yes, I agree with you. And both the West (Stretford End) and East Stands were newly built in the 1990's, after the start of the Premier League.

 

[Fitchett]

OT isn’t falling apart as is made out, however it is definitely showing its age. People say it’s cramped etc but a lot of newer stadiums aren’t actually that much larger inside either. New Wembley walkways etc aren’t that wide and it’s narrow enough in the concourse at spurs too and Arsenal as well for example. I’m sure there is more legroom in seats at those grounds but wouldn’t say it’s a huge difference either.

A big part of improving things at OT is the footprint around the ground, which is pretty muddled and untidy.
Obviously the roof needs sorting and the facades could do with updating too but a lot of the rest is fluff.
Do I want a ground where there’s better WiFi to encourage people to be on their phones even more during games? Or more food and drink stands so I have to get out of my seat ten times a half to make way for people coming and going?
Football stadiums are for watching football in, the people who turn up with no interest in even watching the game don’t need even more encouragement in my opinion. Appreciate I sound like a Luddite here but it’s how I’ve come to feel about stadiums in general having been to quite a few of them for games now.

Agreed! As a season ticket holder, myself and the many other match going fans actually go to watch a football match, and don't need to be seduced by all the other extras mentioned in this thread. All of which will cost money. The South (Sir Bobby) Stand needs expanding over the railway line, and that can be designed to accommodate corporate hospitality, media improvements, as well as increasing the overall capacity to around 90,000. The other three stands are perfectly adequate for the needs of genuine match going fans.

Btw, the club significantly improved the WiFi coverage in the ground during the summer. But, that doesn't get widely reported, as it doesn't fit the narrative of "a decaying OT".

 

[UnitedSofa]

Agreed! As a season ticket holder, myself and the many other match going fans actually go to watch a football match, and don't need to be seduced by all the other extras mentioned in this thread. All of which will cost money. The South (Sir Bobby) Stand needs expanding over the railway line, and that can be designed to accommodate corporate hospitality, media improvements, as well as increasing the overall capacity to around 90,000. The other three stands are perfectly adequate for the needs of genuine match going fans.

Btw, the club significantly improved the WiFi coverage in the ground during the summer. But, that doesn't get widely reported, as it doesn't fit the narrative of "a decaying OT".

Then again, who needs highly qualified architects knowledge on the building itself? All we need is match going fans and internet architects to tell them exactly what needs doing!

Just build over the railway, piece of piss it is mate! Also why not just chuck the media and corporate over there, we don’t need them, they’ll do just fine over there away from us real fans!

 

[matt10000]

Whilst we all get nostalgic about OT, deep down we all know it’s a rotting station and needs probably as much spending on it as it would to build new. I’m totoally in favour of a new stadium to move us forward.

How did you work out that we all know OT needa as much spending on it as it would to build a new one?

I would be interested in the maths beind this because i think you have made a sweeping assumption based on nothing factual

 

[UnitedSofa]

How did you work out that we all know OT needa as much spending on it as it would to build a new one?

I would be interested in the maths beind this because i think you have made a sweeping assumption based on nothing factual

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

It is estimated that redevelopment and expansion of Old Trafford in its current form would cost upwards of £800 million and has been cited internally as an eight-year project. A new stadium could cost as much as £2 billion.


So basically near enough half the outlay for a redevelopment to a new stadium. Makes more financial sense to build a new one for the amount you spend on redevelopment.