NFL 2021

[Carolina Red]

3 seasons to begin his career...and that's it. One 100 reception season. Rookie of the Year, then his two seasons after that. He's benefited from playing well early in his career in New York.

Compared to a player like Davante Adams who was drafted the same year, much lower in the draft. Doesn't get nearly the attention OBJ has or did.

He’s played for 7 years. Had 1000 yard seasons in 5 of them. Was injured in 2.

Devante Adams didn’t pass Odell in receiving yards until this season, even though he’s played in 20 more games than Odell. If OBJ doesn’t break an ankle or blow a knee, then Adams is still behind him.

 

[entropy]

3 seasons to begin his career...and that's it. One 100 reception season. Rookie of the Year, then his two seasons after that. He's benefited from playing well early in his career in New York.

Compared to a player like Davante Adams who was drafted the same year, much lower in the draft. Doesn't get nearly the attention OBJ has or did.

Davante Adams has plays drawn up just for him and has Aaron Rodgers throwing to him. OBJ on the other hand has none of these luxuries. He instead got a lot of shit from the media when he got mad at the play-calling during his final few seasons with the giants. The same thing is happening now with the Browns with an even terrible QB in Baker Mayfield.

 

[edcunited1878]

He’s played for 7 years. Had 1000 yard seasons in 5 of them. Was injured in 2.

Devante Adams didn’t pass Odell in receiving yards until this season, even though he’s played in 20 more games than Odell. If OBJ doesn’t break an ankle or blow a knee, then Adams is still behind him.

But injuries are part of the game and have limited him, thus why I say he's overrated. He's living off his first 3 years, yet he's being respected as an elite player after 5 years of injuries and good but not great output.

Health is always a big issue, especially when you only play 16 or 17 games.

 

[Sandyman]

Incredible turnaround by the Ravens. Andrews

 

[Carolina Red]

But injuries are part of the game and have limited him, thus why I say he's overrated. He's living off his first 3 years, yet he's being respected as an elite player after 5 years of injuries and good but not great output.

Health is always a big issue, especially when you only play 16 or 17 games.

Yeah, I’m not going to call a player overrated when likely the only reason they’ve not had 1000 yards in every season they’ve played in has been due to season ending injuries.

 

[adexkola]

He's overrated. Had a few good seasons and made a great one handed catch that was hyped up to the heavens.

Deservedly so sir.

Shame we lost that game, but still

 

[adexkola]

Also, holy shit on Gruden

Meyer must be so relieved the media attention is off him

 

[edcunited1878]

Davante Adams has plays drawn up just for him and has Aaron Rodgers throwing to him. OBJ on the other hand has none of these luxuries. He instead got a lot of shit from the media when he got mad at the play-calling during his final few seasons with the giants. The same thing is happening now with the Browns with an even terrible QB in Baker Mayfield.

So you're saying the Giants or Browns didn't draw up plays for him or Eli or Baker haven't targeted him more than not, or least made him their first read?

He runs routes extremely well, which allows him to get expanded targets and plays tailor for him.

For how much he's getting paid, he's underperformed and I don't think it can be all directed at Mayfield...don't think he's that good, but still. Eli was bad during his last few years, but he wasn't some journeyman QB slinging it to OBJ during his best seasons.

 

[Sandyman]

Boneheaded by Young

 

[Hephaestus]

Another missed game-winning kick, how many is that this week?

 

[adexkola]

And another missed kick.

 

[Sandyman]

Bad bad week for kickers

 

[adexkola]

This drive from Baltimore has been relentless.

Say a prayer for the job security of kickers across the league tonight

 

[Rado_N]

Jon Gruden is a piece of shit? It’s always the ones you most expect.

 

[backofthenet]

No sympathy whatsoever for Gruden based on the emails. As a Raiders fan, he was probably going to be on the hotseat this year anyway along with the GM as we look a mid table team at best and have made some bizarre draft decisions, but I'm surprised that Mark Davis hasn't tried to ride this one out. There were a few hints coming from the dressing room at the weekend that the players weren't happy, so maybe that's factored in.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

I also wonder if the contracts have clauses to exit easily over stuff like this

 

[RobinLFC]

So you're saying the Giants or Browns didn't draw up plays for him or Eli or Baker haven't targeted him more than not, or least made him their first read?

He runs routes extremely well, which allows him to get expanded targets and plays tailor for him.

For how much he's getting paid, he's underperformed and I don't think it can be all directed at Mayfield...don't think he's that good, but still. Eli was bad during his last few years, but he wasn't some journeyman QB slinging it to OBJ during his best seasons.

He literallly could’ve had 200 yards and a few TDs last week when Mayfield was awful and constantly missing him.

Swap OBJ and Adams in terms of situation and QB play and we’re not even having this discussion. He’s a 99th percentile athlete and an absolutely amazing receiver (who hopefully gets out of Cleveland as soon as possible yes). He's just not being used or used as a decoy for the entire offense - even this week Mayfield threw for over 350 yards and Beckham had 2 receptions for 20.

It's one thing to say that he's not worth the money he's being paid because he can't seem to stay healthy the last few seasons, but weird to say he's overrated because of that. The caveat for NFL players is always "if he's on the field". CMC isn't suddenly overrated because he missed last season and a good portion of this, is he?

 

[RoyH1]

No sympathy whatsoever for Gruden based on the emails. As a Raiders fan, he was probably going to be on the hotseat this year anyway along with the GM as we look a mid table team at best and have made some bizarre draft decisions, but I'm surprised that Mark Davis hasn't tried to ride this one out. There were a few hints coming from the dressing room at the weekend that the players weren't happy, so maybe that's factored in.

In a way it comes godsend to Mark Davis since Gruden was never going to win a playoff game in his career again. Now he resigns and Davis doesn't have to eat the rest of that contract.

The most interesting thing for me is that only Gruden's mails surfaced. You don't think nasty weasels like Washington team owner Snyder has said much, much worse? Why are only Gruden's mails surfacing?

 

[DavelinaJolie]

Give Lamar time and he can sling it. That work he put into his mechanics looks like it is paying off.

Highest completion % by a QB with 40+ attempts in NFL history.

 

[RobinLFC]

The most interesting thing for me is that only Gruden's mails surfaced. You don't think nasty weasels like Washington team owner Snyder has said much, much worse? Why are only Gruden's mails surfacing?

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Rado_N]

I also wonder if the contracts have clauses to exit easily over stuff like this

100%

 

[NasirTimothy]

Also, holy shit on Gruden

Meyer must be so relieved the media attention is off him

As many people have hilariously pointed out on the internet.

 

[ha_rooney]

Good riddance to Gruden, I never got the hype around him as coach.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Give Lamar time and he can sling it. That work he put into his mechanics looks like it is paying off.

Highest completion % by a QB with 40+ attempts in NFL history.

Lamar is an incredible QB and it’s time people woke up and realised this.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Good riddance to Gruden, I never got the hype around him as coach.

Well he won the SB with Dungy’s team and did nowt afterwards the first time round. And he’s been mediocre since he came back.

 

[WeePat]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Don’t know if this was posted before but thought it was an interesting question.

I’d go:

Allen
Lamar
Dak
Herbert
Kyler

This list would probably change based even on what happens this year, but right now that‘s the order I’d have.

I’d still take Mahomes over all these guys though

Jackson
Herbert
Allen
Dak
Murray.

I hated the rhetoric around Jackson coming out of college. He's not a real QB, he should be a running back etc, and then he dropped out of the first round in the draft. I never wanted someone to prove everyone wrong as much as him. That MVP award must have felt like sweet vindication for him.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

I also wonder if the contracts have clauses to exit easily over stuff like this

Not if they were sent privately while he was not employed by the NFL. They likely would have still fired him for cause, but it would not necessarily be cut and dry if that were the case. The emails released so far were only up to the point when he was hired as far as I know.

 

[RobinLFC]

It's for the next 10 years though, so you'd have to worry about his mobility when he will be 34 years old in 10 years time. Same goes for Murray (and Allen to a lesser extent).

If your team is in win now mode I'd have no qualms with picking Lamar at the top of that bunch but if you really wanna build for the future and think a few years ahead, you can't go wrong with Allen or Herbert.

There's so little that separates Herbert, Allen, Dak and Murray in terms of throwing it deep downfield and mid-range accuracy. Kyler has obviously the running / escaping advantage right now but Allen and Herbert are also quite good at that and even Dak isn't a bad rusher if he needs to. Kyler and Dak also ahead of the pack of completion percentage this season so far, quite comfortably but small sample size.

Ability to win games and come through in the clutch is also very close for all of them, I think they all have proven that they can single-handedly drag their team to victory if the pressure is on (you could argue that Lamar and Herbert did just that this weekend while Allen dissected the Chiefs D).

Dak has his age against him compared to the others. Deshaun Watson also would definitely be in this conversation if he was still playing football.

I'd probably go:
Allen
Herbert
Dak
Lamar
Murray

But I think you can make a case for anyone of them being top or bottom basically.

 

[WeePat]

Not if they were sent privately while he was not employed by the NFL. They likely would have still fired him for cause, but it would not necessarily be cut and dry if that were the case. The emails released so far were only up to the point when he was hired as far as I know.

It's interesting that the only emails leaked from an investigation into someone else at a different organisation were emails implicating Gruden, and not you know the target of said investigation.

Feck Gruden though. His 'I'm done addressing this' stance was so infuriatingly arrogant.

 

[Organic Potatoes]

Speaking of which QB you’d want…I wonder which job will be the most coveted. Vegas, Jax, Denver, Chicago(?)….I’m sure I’m missing some hot seats.

Vegas has some things going for it on offense, but I wouldn’t want Mayock as my GM. If you think Fields will become a franchise QB then Chicago would be attractive.

 

[DavelinaJolie]

Lamar is an incredible QB and it’s time people woke up and realised this.

He hasn't been. He's beaten up bad teams in the air in the past, but the playcalling has favoured his and the RB's legs, and Lamar has made enough of what he came into the league already good at to make it work.

I've probably said this before but when he first took over from Flacco there was one thing* about his passing game that gave me a lot of hope, he would scan the field and go through progressions, something Flacco was terrible at. However, his mechanics have been pretty poor. In his MVP season, when he was beating up on the Bucs and Dolphins he had time to throw and it showed, but when the pressure was coming in and he was rushed you'd see him throw the ball over the head of his receiver and into the dirt 3+ feet away from them, he'd trust his arm too much over maintaining a platform.

As I said earlier in this thread, his OL was a mash unit last year and his game suffered for it. This year his OL is still not great, but you can see the work he has done in drilling those mechanics so his release is coming from stronger base. His deep passes are on target and have some zip, and he's stronger hitting receivers outside. He still seems to favour the middle of the field, and the zip on his passes has allowed him to make some throws I to really tight windows, but his overall passing just looks cleaner.

*Edit: two things! He also led the receiver on deep passes, and I'd bet if you go back through Flacco's career you'll find less than 15 instances of him hitting a receiver in stride down the field. For all that arm strength he was rubbish at leading his receiver.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

Speaking of which QB you’d want…I wonder which job will be the most coveted. Vegas, Jax, Denver, Chicago(?)….I’m sure I’m missing some hot seats.

Vegas has some things going for it on offense, but I wouldn’t want Mayock as my GM. If you think Fields will become a franchise QB then Chicago would be attractive.

Vegas are getting Doug Pederson

 

[NasirTimothy]

He hasn't been. He's beaten up bad teams in the air in the past, but the playcalling has favoured his and the RB's legs, and Lamar has made enough of what he came into the league already good at to make it work.

I've probably said this before but when he first took over from Flacco there was one thing* about his passing game that gave me a lot of hope, he would scan the field and go through progressions, something Flacco was terrible at. However, his mechanics have been pretty poor. In his MVP season, when he was beating up on the Bucs and Dolphins he had time to throw and it showed, but when the pressure was coming in and he was rushed you'd see him throw the ball over the head of his receiver and into the dirt 3+ feet away from them, he'd trust his arm too much over maintaining a platform.

As I said earlier in this thread, his OL was a mash unit last year and his game suffered for it. This year his OL is still not great, but you can see the work he has done in drilling those mechanics so his release is coming from stronger base. His deep passes are on target and have some zip, and he's stronger hitting receivers outside. He still seems to favour the middle of the field, and the zip on his passes has allowed him to make some throws I to really tight windows, but his overall passing just looks cleaner.

*Edit: two things! He also led the receiver on deep passes, and I'd bet if you go back through Flacco's career you'll find less than 15 instances of him hitting a receiver in stride down the field. For all that arm strength he was rubbish at leading his receiver.

I said what I said. He’s gonna make a lot of people eat their words over the next 10 years.

 

[altodevil]

It's for the next 10 years though, so you'd have to worry about his mobility when he will be 34 years old in 10 years time. Same goes for Murray (and Allen to a lesser extent).

If your team is in win now mode I'd have no qualms with picking Lamar at the top of that bunch but if you really wanna build for the future and think a few years ahead, you can't go wrong with Allen or Herbert.

There's so little that separates Herbert, Allen, Dak and Murray in terms of throwing it deep downfield and mid-range accuracy. Kyler has obviously the running / escaping advantage right now but Allen and Herbert are also quite good at that and even Dak isn't a bad rusher if he needs to. Kyler and Dak also ahead of the pack of completion percentage this season so far, quite comfortably but small sample size.

Ability to win games and come through in the clutch is also very close for all of them, I think they all have proven that they can single-handedly drag their team to victory if the pressure is on (you could argue that Lamar and Herbert did just that this weekend while Allen dissected the Chiefs D).

Dak has his age against him compared to the others. Deshaun Watson also would definitely be in this conversation if he was still playing football.

I'd probably go:
Allen
Herbert
Dak
Lamar
Murray

But I think you can make a case for anyone of them being top or bottom basically.

If he was playing football - i.e wasn't a creep - he would be the clear-cut number one. Not even close.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Jackson
Herbert
Allen
Dak
Murray.

I hated the rhetoric around Jackson coming out of college. He's not a real QB, he should be a running back etc, and then he dropped out of the first round in the draft. I never wanted someone to prove everyone wrong as much as him. That MVP award must have felt like sweet vindication for him.

Absolutely. Has achieved more than nearly every other QB in his age bracket and gets the least respect. He’ll keep grinding and winning though, of that I’m sure.

 

[NasirTimothy]

If he was playing football - i.e wasn't a creep - he would be the clear-cut number one. Not even close.

I don’t know that that’s true (that he’d be the clear cut number one).

 

[NasirTimothy]

It's for the next 10 years though, so you'd have to worry about his mobility when he will be 34 years old in 10 years time. Same goes for Murray (and Allen to a lesser extent).

If your team is in win now mode I'd have no qualms with picking Lamar at the top of that bunch but if you really wanna build for the future and think a few years ahead, you can't go wrong with Allen or Herbert.

There's so little that separates Herbert, Allen, Dak and Murray in terms of throwing it deep downfield and mid-range accuracy. Kyler has obviously the running / escaping advantage right now but Allen and Herbert are also quite good at that and even Dak isn't a bad rusher if he needs to. Kyler and Dak also ahead of the pack of completion percentage this season so far, quite comfortably but small sample size.

Ability to win games and come through in the clutch is also very close for all of them, I think they all have proven that they can single-handedly drag their team to victory if the pressure is on (you could argue that Lamar and Herbert did just that this weekend while Allen dissected the Chiefs D).

Dak has his age against him compared to the others. Deshaun Watson also would definitely be in this conversation if he was still playing football.

I'd probably go:
Allen
Herbert
Dak
Lamar
Murray

But I think you can make a case for anyone of them being top or bottom basically.

Yeah they are all very good players. Will be fun to watch them grow and see who can get it done when it counts most consistently.

Obviously a lot will depend on their defenses, coaches and teams going forward though.

 

[RobinLFC]

I said what I said. He’s gonna make a lot of people eat their words over the next 10 years.

Eat their words as in, be a starting QB in the NFL and keep winning games, sure. Win an actual ring or let alone create a powerhouse for multiple years, I don't think he's capable of that. But to be honest, I think the doubts were mostly before he entered the NFL? You'd have to have your hand in the sand if you still think he's not a capable starter.

If he was playing football - i.e wasn't a creep - he would be the clear-cut number one. Not even close.

I might have him first too yeah, but I certainly don't think it's clear-cut. Allen has been playing out of his mind since the start of last year.

Then again, Watson had to cope with BOB as his HC.

 

[altodevil]

I don’t know that that’s true (that he’d be the clear cut number one).

Couldn't disagree more - Watson was exceptional with a terrible coaching staff and average surrounding talent. Allen was a bum for two years. I think he's matured and developed, but need more than one good season if you are locking them up for ten.

 

[RoyH1]

Good riddance to Gruden, I never got the hype around him as coach.

He turned Oakland around in his first stint as a coach, built them into a contender and made Rich Gannon an NFL MVP. They were a tuck rule away from the SB that started the Brady legend. And while as someone above has said he won the SB with Dungy's team, then it must also be said that the Raiders that made that same SB were his team. Callahan had been Gruden's offensive coordinator and didn't change a thing (which is also why Gruden knew everything that was coming at him in the Super Bowl).
But he grew stale in Tampa and never really changed his style and philosophy. He was fired and would probably have been better off staying in television.