Not enough has been said about the players part in all this mess

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UpWithRivers

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Yes Ole had to go and was sht. Yes Carrick, McKennna and Phelan need to go, yes our board is sht and we have slated players individually but as a whole not enough has been said about the abject pathetic performances of our team. It beggars belief. Even with a sht game plan and bad coaching what excuse can be given for the displays especially against Liverpool, City and Watford?

Downed tools? Weak mentality? What? Ole was a sht manager but he surely must be baffled by the abject performances. Who has played well? De Gea is probably our best player but even he has let in soft goals. Ronaldo has bailed us out but not in the league and could be responsible for our letting in goals. Everyone else has been absolutely dogsht. And on top of it just weak mentally. Yes we have had some failures and bad performances and the team has downed tools before but has it been as bad as this?

How do we spend millions and millions and millions and end up with weak arse kittens that cant even do the basics? Do we really need another rebuild!
 

pocco

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I feel like it was an accumulation of factors. Initially teams exploited poor tactics, then the whole mood slowly turned sour over time and I just think they found themselves in a ditch mentally. I was listening to Gary Neville say how he had to see a psychologist after he made a backpass that got intercepted and conceded a goal. I can only imagine how draining the whole experience has been mentally, which is on the club for not acting and taking this stuff for granted. Perhaps you could call this mentally weak, but I wouldn't have ever classed Neville as mentally weak and one backpass messed him up.

The whole situation just became extremely toxic.
 

dove

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Our performances have been shit for years now, it's not like suddenly we started being shit. Apart from that infamous winning streak just when Ole got the job (I am sure the reason for that was that we had a decent structure and shape left by Jose, the players just needed someone to lift the spirits and give more freedom), we have never really played well but still somehow we managed to get points (I think playing without the supporters really helped us in our away form). So nothing really changed except finally the results caught up with our performances, it was inevitable.
 

AndyMUFC

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Always the same.

Something had to change, we need a better manager and we weren't going to get out of this without sacking Ole but their mentality and lack of intensity isn't just down to bad coaching.
 
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Pronewbie

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Don't worry it's their turn to face the music now. They've got nowhere to hide now that Ole is gone. I hope United fans are wise enough to identify the serial complainers/bottlers since Mourinho's time.
 

Maluco

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Put Ole in charge at Liverpool, City or Chelsea for three years and see how those players get on.

The players get a bad rep because they are constantly given a shit hand. We have people arguing that our current squad aren’t any better talent wise than what Poch had at Spurs.

The players deserve a quality coach.
 

HTG

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There’s a thread like this every few days. I think enough is being sad.
 

monosierra

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Put Ole in charge at Liverpool, City or Chelsea for three years and see how those players get on.

The players get a bad rep because they are constantly given a shit hand. We have people arguing that our current squad aren’t any better talent wise than what Poch had at Spurs.

The players deserve a quality coach.
I agree. These are some of the best players in the world, and it appears they are being coached by a pair of newcomers with almost no professional, top-tier experience in their jobs. Compare our coaching/managerial standards to what our rivals have and it is clear that we are a step behind.
 

Skills

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This is such a catch22. If the players were good enough to coach themselves - we don't need a manager. If they could just overcome poor training and tactical set ups through sheer effort, we don't need a manager.

Either the manager is adding value on the pitch club or he isn't.
 

spiriticon

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I think plenty is being said about the players. Look at their performance threads. Meltdowns in pretty much all of them.
 

Rolaholic

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Put Ole in charge at Liverpool, City or Chelsea for three years and see how those players get on.

The players get a bad rep because they are constantly given a shit hand. We have people arguing that our current squad aren’t any better talent wise than what Poch had at Spurs.

The players deserve a quality coach.
Basically, you can have the best players in the world but they can only go so far off of their individual quality. It's a team game after all so patterns of play, systems and tactics are extremely important for team success. Not only talent.

It's why much lesser squads play much better football than us with a fraction of the squad value. Get a serious and tactically adept manager into this team and I'd put money that they'd be able to compete against any side in the world
 
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Dan_F

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Put Ole in charge at Liverpool, City or Chelsea for three years and see how those players get on.

The players get a bad rep because they are constantly given a shit hand. We have people arguing that our current squad aren’t any better talent wise than what Poch had at Spurs.

The players deserve a quality coach.
:lol: I’m trying to avoid certain threads because I can already guess where the conversations are heading, but I didn’t expect that. Although I’ll admit it did surprise me when Real didn’t look to replace Varane with Eric Dier.
 

JPRouve

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It's always interesting when a group of players that have prolonged their manager tenure by being the kings of comebacks are called mentally weak and have supposedly downed tools.
 

Hammondo

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Our team is massively overrated, and we overpaid for them. We have done pretty poorly at finding talented players for a good price.
 

Idxomer

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Have you heard Roy Keane at all in the last couple of months?

A weak mentality usually begins from the top. Ole was a weak leader and manager. The players also knew it but I've seen them try hard in most games, even this season but it was obvious they lacked direction.
 

GBBQ

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Our tactics looked naïve at best and non existent at worst and we've been schooled a few times this season. Maybe we rode our luck last season or teams figured us out this season but either way all teams fancy having a crack at us now.

Ole persevered with his favourites even through poor form (McFred, Maguire, Shaw, AWB) when he had able bodied replacements (Bailly, VDB, Telles Dalot) who could at least rattle their cages a bit. Players knew they would be on the team sheet regardless of performance and would likely get 80+ mins even if performing badly. That to me doesn't seem conducive to a hurry high performance team and right enough, Lingard and VDB were pushing to go, as is Pogba.

So while some performances have been poor I think the buck stops with the manager and we need someone in who can coach them into shape. That's what Klopp, Pep, Tuchel have done. Even Ranieri had his team playing in unison with only a months worth of training and we're still clueless after 3 years.
 

Gasmeter

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Harry Maguire wasn't, and never will be an £80 million defender. You don't need to listen hard, to hear the Leicester board laughing until tears roll down their cheeks to this very day.
 

Rolaholic

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It's always interesting when a group of players that have prolonged their manager tenure by being the kings of comebacks are called mentally weak and have supposedly downed tools.
Happened under Jose and now Ole :lol:

You can have many complaints against the squad but the one I never understand is the narrative of 'downing tools' and giving up on the manager when they showed mettle time and time again during each of those manager's rough periods.

Sometimes it's as simple as being completely outclassed tactically, no amount of talent and willpower on the players part can overcome that constantly. It's why the best sides who actually win things always have excellent players paired with excellent coaching
 

He'sRaldo

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It's always interesting when a group of players that have prolonged their manager tenure by being the kings of comebacks are called mentally weak and have supposedly downed tools.
For some reason there always seems to be someone ready to turn things toxic against the players, just because their golden boy wasn't good enough.
 

pocco

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Don't worry it's their turn to face the music now. They've got nowhere to hide now that Ole is gone. I hope United fans are wise enough to identify the serial complainers/bottlers since Mourinho's time.
Who do you think that is? Rashford, Shaw, De Gea, McTominay, Fred are the ones left that start most games and were here under Jose.

I think there's possibly something in the Ronaldo believing some players want it too easy. It would explain why they didn't react well to Jose.
 

Lynty

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I still maintain we have a world class squad.

Yes we're missing a quality DM. And yes Maguire has turned shit. But a good manager can compensate.

Or are we really going to pretend that our squad is worse than the Ajax starting 11 that put 7 past Dortmund over two legs.
 

Ixion

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The players have been shit and I don't think the squad currently could win the League but there is something to be said about playing players who are in terrible form over and over. Sometimes players need a couple of games out, to rest, to get their head right etc. but Ole just kept throwing the same players at it every game even when they're in the worst form of their careers, not to mention in a formation that doesn't suit the players we have.
 

Tom Cato

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I look forward to the day we recruit the manager who gets the most out of everyone. We'll no longer need to buy new players and can use all the clubs financial assets on more deserving avenues.
 

MattyLT

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It's certainly not a great look when some players are on their third or fourth unsuccessful manager, and still at the club. Three strikes, and you're quite clearly part of the problem.
 
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Our performances have been shit for years now, it's not like suddenly we started being shit.
this is what people don’t get and the problem that hold England as a national team back and club teams in the premier league or when discussing individual players.

Many are blinded by results or goals.
United are playing crap, no style of play getting out played by every team we play: Meh we’re still winning stop being such a bore just enjoy it, stop hating Ole.

Player x is actually very bad and holds the team back ruins play: he scored 20 goals last season are you mad, not everyone can put in Ronaldo/Messi/Salah numbers

In Spain, Italy and even France they don’t look at simple stats like results and goals.

If a team wins but the football isn’t on point the manager will get sacked. A person who scores a lot will get dropped if he doesn’t contribute or hinders overall team play eg Bale
 

thegregster

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For some reason there always seems to be someone ready to turn things toxic against the players, just because their golden boy wasn't good enough.
Well he is gone now. I guess they can blame Carrick and the gang for the next few weeks,

Then its time for Harry,Pogba,Martial,Matic etc to start leaking stories how Poch isnt up to scratch.
 

romufc

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Our team is massively overrated, and we overpaid for them. We have done pretty poorly at finding talented players for a good price.
Yep, I agree with this. Its mainly the British contingent that is overrated though.

AWB - Worst RB in the PL
Shaw - Been poor all season
Maguire - Been poor all season
Rashford - Poor for about 10 months now, gets the goals so gets away with it
Bruno - off the Ball is poor, yes he tracks back on the odd occasion but he presses alone, whats the point
Greenwood - RW isn't really suited to him, hasnt really kicked on
McTominay - Rubbish
Fred - Average

Yet these players started most games under Ole.
 

UnitedFire

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A range of factors..
1) Dan James out, Ronaldo and Sancho in has changed dynamics. Rashford out for a long time with injuries.

The quality isn't the issue here, its the setup. What we had before needs adapting. See 2)

2) The very limited kick and run counters worked more often and longer than they should and our changes have meant we both can't do it as well as we were before and teams have learnt to counter. We need a better way to play, more technicality, more range of options.

3) Unstable defence....Varane injured more than not has killed stability. That mixed in with Maguires injury and form issues.

McTominay and Fred have also been injured/ off the boil.

I'm sure part of the answer here is being over played for a long period of time in a post covid catch up so bodies are probably not as finely tuned as they were.

4) Pogba....we've constantly been trying to shoe horn him in and the dynamics just don't work. On left wing he has been decent, but again see point 1 we lose the counter attacking speed of Rashford.

5) Momentum. We've had the toughest run of games i can remember going back to SAF days and we've gone into this run on bad form.

There is a reason I asked the question on one my threads about will Ole last till December. Frankly any manager in his position would have struggled and a bad form start can happen to any manager which we simply couldn't afford going into that run.

6) Discontent...Mata new deal no play, Jesse staying...no play. VdB signing...no play. Same as Telles, Dalot, Diallo, Cavani since Ronaldo. Many of these players have not had enough chances, have shined when given chances or have not had enough momentum to progress. This has to build frustration.

7) The biggest problem and linked to most of the above is our midfield is one of, if not they poorest midfields in the Prem. The kick and run tactics got us by over compensating with those tactics, but without the over compensation of extreme speed of James and Rashford on form you actually need to play ball.

Our midfield are a disabler not an enabler of all the quality we have. I can't see any manager dramatically changing things without fixing that. The answer might be getting creative with youth or something crazy like Cavani in midfield, but something has to change.

This last reason is also ultimately a big factor in finally losing patience with Ole. We had all the tools, we just needed to swap some. Sell some buy others. Sell Jesse, sell Pogba, release Mata, etc and reinvest in an engine. Tweaks like this would have dramatically improved the balance of the squad at next to no impact on quality of those positions.

This last point may be on the Board and might be why Ole got more time than he should have done.

Ole was definitely part of the problem and probably quite a big part, but he is far from all of it.
 

AltiUn

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Don't worry it's their turn to face the music now. They've got nowhere to hide now that Ole is gone. I hope United fans are wise enough to identify the serial complainers/bottlers since Mourinho's time.
Agreed. Certain players who played within themselves to get Solskjaer sacked, or were just playing appalling generally, may suddenly find themselves without a place under a new regime.
 

Rolaholic

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Well he is gone now. I guess they can blame Carrick and the gang for the next few weeks,

Then its time for Harry,Pogba,Martial,Matic etc to start leaking stories how Poch isnt up to scratch.
I mean Carrick is quite literally a continuation of Ole...

Everyone bar Maguire that you named have barely played integral roles in the team under the current regime yet here they are getting singled out as the previous managers favorites continued stinking up the place while never getting dropped :lol:
 

Skills

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It's always interesting when a group of players that have prolonged their manager tenure by being the kings of comebacks are called mentally weak and have supposedly downed tools.
This.
 

sparx99

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Unlucky goal one week, poor performance the next, all of sudden you’re in bad form. The heads drop, a split second of indecision leads to another mistake.

When people have talked about Maguires mistakes they often cite his pace. But it’s been mental errors in the main.

Generally it’s a combo of confidence and belief in the tactics and ultimately both disappeared.
 

11101

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I don't place much blame on the players. At this level margins are slim, individual ability alone is not enough unless your surname is Maradona. You need to be 100% certain what you need to do in certain situations because the other team will be. Any hesitation and you'll make mistakes, no matter who you are.

Some of the players might not be good enough but none of what's happened in the last few months should count against them.
 

BlueHaze

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Yep, I agree with this. Its mainly the British contingent that is overrated though.

AWB - Worst RB in the PL
Shaw - Been poor all season
Maguire - Been poor all season
Rashford - Poor for about 10 months now, gets the goals so gets away with it
Bruno - off the Ball is poor, yes he tracks back on the odd occasion but he presses alone, whats the point
Greenwood - RW isn't really suited to him, hasnt really kicked on
McTominay - Rubbish
Fred - Average

Yet these players started most games under Ole.
What worries me is that the same players will start under the new manager.
 
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It's always interesting when a group of players that have prolonged their manager tenure by being the kings of comebacks are called mentally weak and have supposedly downed tools.
Isn't it amazing?

Happened in Mourinho's final, most toxic months too - Neville and the other usual suspects on TV were going on about downing tools and throwing the manager under the bus, all while the players literally kept him in the job with repeated comebacks against Bournemouth, Chelsea, Arsenal, Southampton and Newcastle. It was possibly even funnier back then because our best player in that 8-week spell was literally Martial, the longtime poster child for sulking and only playing when he can be arsed.
 

FriedClams

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I dont think this is necessarily true. A lot of the bad stuff about the players gets said during the games when they make mistakes in the moment. I don't think anyone exclaimed "Ole doesn't know what he's doing" when Maguire gave the ball to Cleverly then fouled him. After the game, its natural to work from the top down trying to apportion blame, especially when the poor form has been so consistent.
 

romufc

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What worries me is that the same players will start under the new manager.
Then, I am afraid his fate is sealed. Unless the manager gets Rashford working hard, Greenwood working hard, Bruno a bit more disciplined, it could work but I do not see futures for McTominay, AWB in this team going forward.

AWB is a disaster at RB, we thought we have one of the best defensive RB's, I have seen him make mistake after mistake, we were made to believe to he is quick, I saw Josh King blitz him, whenever he is tracking back, he looks like he is jogging and does not care.

We can talk about tactics, but simple mistakes, Maguire and Shaw at fault for loads of goals this season. I hope the new manager shakes things up.
 

Withnail

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Players lose faith in the manager's methods and performances turn to shit. It's nothing new or surprising. Get a top manager in and these problems go away. I don't think there is much point over-analysing things at this stage.
 

Andersonson

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Many of our players are overrated. Many believe that a class manager will make this team challenging for title, i dont think that's the case.

We have some very talented players that COULD become top top players, but at the moment they are not.

Maguire
Shaw
Lindelof
Beek
Fred
Mctominay
AWB
Telles
Bailly
Dalot
Martial

None of these players would get in a Liverpool or City team. They might have gotten minutes for Everton or Leicester.
 
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