Not enough has been said about the players part in all this mess

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JPRouve

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My guy it's an expression. I'm pretty sure the issue isn't with me and just about everyone in football using what is obviously a figure of speech but rather in you taking it literally.
And expressions have a meaning, also people literally claim that players purposely tried to get a manager sacked. It's in the first page below the post of mine that you quoted.
 

Matt851

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Its not on the players this time. The total lack of planning and organisation left them ruthlessly exposed and by the end I don't think one single player had a clue what they were supposed to be doing.
This, and in the last few games the players may have put in less effort once our board had shown themselves to be completely toothless because they knew somethnig needed to change

This thread is just somewhere for the deluded ole inners to go
 

Rozay

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To be fair to them, it was becoming increasingly obvious that it was difficult to appraise individual performances in the set up that we had. Some of the performances have been pathetic, but the set up handicaps the players from the start. This has been the case for years with Manchester United, who have been several years behind the rest of football tactically for a decade. While everyone else had gone back to the drawing board while we were winning trophies, they have now emerged with newer philosophies that improve players when played in a unit. Meanwhile, we have just been there insisting we are different because we are Man United. Every year it is getting harder for us, as the quality of organisation grows throughout the league, not just at the top. You have the Benitez, Moyes, Howe, Rogers, Potter, Frank etc throughout the league improving players and getting collective benefits while we have been stuck in a time warp of just being brave and going for it.
 

Hammondo

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This is the exact crap I knew I’d see in here. Pogba has Been a bit part player/injured, Rashford has too, Greenwood has even been a bit in & out of it. Even Matic has been around in fits & starts.

If we’re laying blame at players feet it better start with the £80mil oaf in the centre of our defence & the Left Back that has been trying to outdo his incompetence all season. There’s a certain profile of player that are like Teflon to some fans, no matter what level they stoop to, it’s never on them. At least you got McTo right.
Pogba has been lazy since he rejoin United.
 

SungSam7

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Absolute nonsense. If we had 11 Pogbas on the pitch you would have a point.

Are you telling me Fred, Ronaldo, DDG, AWB, Maguire, Shaw and more looked like the downed tools?

No, they were horrible not by choice but horrible because we didn't have a clear cut tactic on how the team was meant to play. Its a lazy way to deflect blame off the manager as he apparently has no control after the game starts.....

One example of players downing tools was the Aston Villa team that went down few years ago, lethargic, no effort to get the ball back. They had all checked out.

Meanwhile we were trying to get goals and get back into the game but we were so tactically shit that it was a miracle we had Ronaldo saving OGS for so long this year.

On top of that, OGS got lucky that VAR was a thing last year, had we not got as many penalties as we did, we wouldnt have even qualified for the CL... It wasnt even the case games were won regardless of the penalties. We won games because of penalties, our attacking output was balanced on hoping we got a penalty!! Shocking stuff.
 
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This isn't really how players "down tools" - They're never going to stop running or intentionally misplace passes - They'd only hurt themselves doing that. Players will always play for themselves.

What happens when a manager loses the players is the team collectively stops working as a unit and defensively especially they will get exposed. The players tune out instructions and the organisation falls apart. The extra mental effort that's required at the top level is gone and players essentially go into business for themselves.

That was clearly happening in Jose's final season (and the end of the previous one) and there were times this year where it looked like that.
I know what happens. That's not what the fans and pundits constantly waxing lyrical about players "trying to get the manager sacked" mean - there were loads of them saying those exact words in fall 2018 even as we were repeatedly staging late comebacks to string together results to keep him stumbling along.

It's completely natural for a team's collective performance to drop when the squad loses faith in the manager or just reaches a point where the message stops getting through. It can happen when a manager with a particularly intense style of play reaches a natural saturation point after a long time with the same squad (Klopp in 2014, Pochettino in 2019), when a manager just isn't the best fit for a squad used to a different way (Ancelotti at Bayern), when a manager is a bastard with a habit of throwing his own players under the bus (Mourinho with us or Chelsea), or when a manager just isn't quite at the same level as the group of players he's in charge of (Benitez at Inter and Madrid, Moyes and eventually Ole with us). This is not the same as saying the players are undermining the manager, trying to get him sacked, or just plain "hiding" behind the manager's faults - a constant refrain with our squad under every manager since Ferguson.

It's an easy and lazy accusation that often has no substance. Case in point: the guy in this very topic saying "they" (our players) have been undermining every manager since 2013 - so either De Gea and Jones have been indoctrinating every single player we've signed in the last eight years, or we just have the worst luck ever and constantly bring in these poisonous characters.
 
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DomesticTadpole

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Absolute nonsense. If we had 11 Pogbas on the pitch you would have a point.

Are you telling me Fred, Ronaldo, DDG, AWB, Maguire, Shaw and more looked like the downed tools?

No, they were horrible not by choice but horrible because we didn't have a clear cut tactic on how the team was meant to play. Its a lazy way to deflect blame off the manager as he apparently has no control after the game starts.....

One example of players downing tools was the Aston Villa team that went down few years ago, lethargic, no effort to get the ball back. They had all checked out.

Meanwhile we were trying to get goals and get back into the game but we were so tactically shit that it was a miracle we had Ronaldo saving OGS for so long this year.

On top of that, OGS got lucky that VAR was a thing last year, had we not got as many penalties as we did, we wouldnt have even qualified for the CL... It wasnt even the case games were won regardless of the penalties. We won games because of penalties, our attacking output was balanced on hoping we got a penalty!! Shocking stuff.
VAR got him the penalty for that win against PSG. That won him his contract because all the ex-players banged the drum. Without VAR there is a good chance it would not have been given as it looked soft even with VAR
 

Stacks

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This is such a catch22. If the players were good enough to coach themselves - we don't need a manager. If they could just overcome poor training and tactical set ups through sheer effort, we don't need a manager.

Either the manager is adding value on the pitch club or he isn't.
bingo!
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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Pogba has been lazy since he rejoin United.
You might be right but that’s not got much to do with the current form that lost OgS his job this season.

OgS was let down by the likes of Shaw, Maguire & McFred massively so I’m not sure why an injured/often dropped player draws more ire. The fact that a ‘lazy’ Pogba has literally done more for the club than a number of this mentioned combined puts in to perspective just how bad they’ve been.

But yes, it’s Pogba’s fault.
 

Hammondo

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You might be right but that’s not got much to do with the current form that lost OgS his job this season.

OgS was let down by the likes of Shaw, Maguire & McFred massively so I’m not sure why an injured/often dropped player draws more ire. The fact that a ‘lazy’ Pogba has literally done more for the club than a number of this mentioned combined puts in to perspective just how bad they’ve been.

But yes, it’s Pogba’s fault.
He takes part of the blame, just as nearly the whole squad do.
 

Hughie77

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Listening to Rio last night, telling Scholes how they were outdone in A England shirt when they played against Better coached sides with not as good players England had. Same goes here at OT, the coaches make the difference, also I do think the players have to buy into that as well lots of them imo have been awful in form, errors in every game.
The errors will not be as much if there coached in a better way, the continuity, in play needs to be better, then errors will be less, confidence comes from the playing structure and some of these don't have a clue what it is.
The change of management had to come and if you look back it was a season to late, As soon as Tuchel got the sack from PSG , UTD should have gone straight in.
But UTD don't do things like that until it becomes the last straw, but Chelsea did they could see Lampard was inexperienced at the level needed. UTD waited waited give him time etc etc, OK last season was the better one but it petered out and we all went hey ho nearly there!! Players yes have to look at themselves big time , but Ole still wasn't the Guy to take UTD back . Covid empty stadiums gave a false sense it was on the up.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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He takes part of the blame, just as nearly the whole squad do.
I’d agree but once again you’re ignoring the post I replied to initially that highlighted 3 players who have played sparingly this season over others. If anything you’re reiterating my point.

In the wake of recent events, laying in to Pogba, ahead of our £80mil oaf of a captain who has never won a thing for the club & hasn’t particularly improved it either, speaks volumes.

All players have played their part as you say, the trouble is the initial post I responded to didn’t acknowledge the favourites who were afforded more opportunities than most rather laid in to the Cafs usual targets.
 

The holy trinity 68

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Have you heard Roy Keane at all in the last couple of months?

A weak mentality usually begins from the top. Ole was a weak leader and manager. The players also knew it but I've seen them try hard in most games, even this season but it was obvious they lacked direction.
Are you saying Louis Van Gaal and Mourinho are also weak leaders and weak managers, because the same issue has been running through the squad since then.
 

Hammondo

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I’d agree but once again you’re ignoring the post I replied to initially that highlighted 3 players who have played sparingly this season over others. If anything you’re reiterating my point.

In the wake of recent events, laying in to Pogba, ahead of our £80mil oaf of a captain who has never won a thing for the club & hasn’t particularly improved it either, speaks volumes.

All players have played their part as you say, the trouble is the initial post I responded to didn’t acknowledge the favourites who were afforded more opportunities than most rather laid in to the Cafs usual targets.
I don't understand why people are making so many excuses for Maguire. He's been pathetically bad.
 

Amir

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OgS was let down by the likes of Shaw, Maguire & McFred massively so I’m not sure why an injured/often dropped player draws more ire.
I just don't agree with the idea that these players "let him down". Maguire and Shaw didn't stop trying. They are just in bad form, maybe because of the Euro's. It happens - players will always have bad periods. And it's up to the manage to find a solution - which also includes the option of using other players, which he chose not to do.
 

roseguy64

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There are 2 positions in England for LW and RW.

There is Sterling, Grealish, Sancho, Rashford, Foden, ESR, Saka who can play that position. At the moment, Sterling, Saka, Grealish are starters.
That's because Rashford was injured during the summer and also last international break. As soon as he got fit earlier in the season he was straight into the next England squad because he's a guaranteed part of the squad/starter when fit.
 

roseguy64

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Absolute nonsense. If we had 11 Pogbas on the pitch you would have a point.

Are you telling me Fred, Ronaldo, DDG, AWB, Maguire, Shaw and more looked like the downed tools?

No, they were horrible not by choice but horrible because we didn't have a clear cut tactic on how the team was meant to play. Its a lazy way to deflect blame off the manager as he apparently has no control after the game starts.....

One example of players downing tools was the Aston Villa team that went down few years ago, lethargic, no effort to get the ball back. They had all checked out.

Meanwhile we were trying to get goals and get back into the game but we were so tactically shit that it was a miracle we had Ronaldo saving OGS for so long this year.

On top of that, OGS got lucky that VAR was a thing last year, had we not got as many penalties as we did, we wouldnt have even qualified for the CL... It wasnt even the case games were won regardless of the penalties. We won games because of penalties, our attacking output was balanced on hoping we got a penalty!! Shocking stuff.
How did we get those penalties? Just luck? It wasn't a function of our attacking play of players running at opponent defenders and/or quick interchanges around the box? You notice that that has been missing this season and so we have less penalties?

You sound ridiculous and like you didn't actually watch us last season. We deserved those penalties last season. We haven't deserved any this season because we've not been as good in/around the opposition box like we used to be.
 

roseguy64

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The first time it happens it's on them, the fifth time it's on the manager for not doing anything about it. Players kept making mistakes and suffered no consequences for it. That was the problem with Ole - both regarding his staff and players - he accepted too many mistakes and sub-par performances. We've become excuses United with Maguire as captain sorry of a squad accustomed to making excuses. That is not how you win trophies.

I don't blame Ole - his job was clear. Get the squad happy, recruit well and start making players believe in the Man Utd ethos. That job was done last season. The right thing to do, from a footballing development perspective would be to thank Ole for his work this summer, let him leave as a success and bring in someone tactically exceptional who would take us to the next level. We didn't do that, and he left in a cloud of failure instead. Which he didn't deserve. All because of a complete lack of succession planning. The entire point of having a professional footballing department or board of business people in charge is to make these decisions and plan ahead - fans are too emotionally invested.

The players haven't been good enough, but they have suffered no consequences, that is on the manager. However, the manager was hired to lift the toxic cloud Mourinho put on the squad, make players happy and prepare the team for success. That job was all but done this summer and would have been a natural point for the leadership - or lack thereof - in the club to act. Ole was out of contract next summer (so mutual termination was within the realm of possibility) and Nagelsmann, Rose, Pochettino, Ten Hag, Conte, all of them were gettable this summer, instead they acted on sentiment extended the contract and put us in the situation we are in where we have to pay to relieve a manager who just signed an extension of his duties and bring in a new man, possibly pay for both an interim and a new manager/head coach. Ultimately it's their fault.
I absolutely agree with your point about him failing to make the players accountable. Shaw and Maguire should have been dropped earlier in the season. McTominay and Fred too. Ole failed in changing personnel and trusting the squad. He might have got the required reactions and kept his job.
 

bosnian_red

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How did we get those penalties? Just luck? It wasn't a function of our attacking play of players running at opponent defenders and/or quick interchanges around the box? You notice that that has been missing this season and so we have less penalties?

You sound ridiculous and like you didn't actually watch us last season. We deserved those penalties last season. We haven't deserved any this season because we've not been as good in/around the opposition box like we used to be.
There were teams that were in and around the box far more than we were last year but had far fewer penalties. Nothing about getting penalties is a sticky year on year metric.
 

Idxomer

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Are you saying Louis Van Gaal and Mourinho are also weak leaders and weak managers, because the same issue has been running through the squad since then.
Relatively, the Mourinho version we got was was pretty weak after the Madrid and Chelsea stints. I don't think the players stopped trying for him or LVG either. It was mostly terrible football catching up with them that caused their sacking.

The difference is we didn't have those kinds of collapses under either Mourinho or LVG. In Mourinho's last months, the team was awful but the worst loss was 0-3 against Spurs when he was actively trying to get sacked.
 

NewGlory

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Many players experience occasional dip in form. It is manager's job to ensure squad depth and rotate the out-of-form players, no matter who they are.

Our troubles this season were clearly triggered by horrible form of Maguire, and to lesser extent Shaw. AWB was never a great defender to begin with and together these three opened the defense wide and with Ole refusing to bench them + us already being shit in midfield all hell broke lose. At the point when we are letting goals in so easily, the rest of the team becomes paralyzed.

No rocket science here. Several bad apples, and manager's inability to remove them, eventually spoiled the entire basket. No need to look for some more elaborate conspiracy
 
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roseguy64

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There were teams that were in and around the box far more than we were last year but had far fewer penalties. Nothing about getting penalties is a sticky year on year metric.
I'm not talking about how often, I'm talking about what we did. We looked far more likely to score and get penalties last season. This season, barely so.
 

ExoduS

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Chelsea players looked lost under Lampard. They were what place last year when Lampard left? After they got Tuchel they climbed up fast and managed to win Champions league convincingly! Real had no chance and they controlled 98% of the match against Man City.
Our players were confused, demoralized and mentally exhausted. They did not know what their role is, they did not know what to train for and they did not know how to play in non-existent system. Yeah, there were some stupid mistakes because team was not mentally prepared for matches. It is manager's job to get the team to be mentally ready.

I will exonerate all players for now, even Maquire and Pogba.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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I don't understand why people are making so many excuses for Maguire. He's been pathetically bad.
It appears we agree again. He’s ben ghastly.
I just don't agree with the idea that these players "let him down". Maguire and Shaw didn't stop trying. They are just in bad form, maybe because of the Euro's. It happens - players will always have bad periods. And it's up to the manage to find a solution - which also includes the option of using other players, which he chose not to do.
Don’t get me wrong, no one let OgS down more than himself. I just think there were a select group of players who were pretty much going to play regardless & week after week they continued to make the same mistakes.

OgS lost himself the job though, as he was given longer rope than any other manager could expect but persisted with players that weren’t anywhere near their best.
 

lex talionis

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Strange thread. We actually have discussed underperforming players quite a bit here. Maguire, Fred, McTominay have all come under heavy stick. De Gea when he was crap. Martial. Matic’s age has been mentioned on more than one occasion. Lingard. Bailly. Lindelof got hammered when he deserved it. AWB. Rashford. Pogba and Shaw.

I’m trying to come up with a single name who has been undeservedly let off the hook on the caf and can’t think of one.
 

Wibble

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Just a thread to criticise players who are already being criticised in existing threads.
 
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