Not enough has been said about the players part in all this mess

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JPRouve

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Isn't it amazing?

Happened in Mourinho's final, most toxic months too - Neville and the other usual suspects on TV were going on about downing tools and throwing the manager under the bus, all while the players literally kept him in the job with repeated comebacks against Bournemouth, Chelsea, Arsenal, Southampton and Newcastle. It was possibly even funnier back then because our best player in that 8-week spell was literally Martial, the longtime poster child for sulking and only playing when he can be arsed.
Exactly, there is one thing that United fans should proud about, it is that this group of player doesn't give up. And the strange thing is that by now we all know that they care about winning, we all know how they react when they are frustrated. None of these players coast or down tools and almost all of them are undone by their will to turn things around when things get tough. Pogba, Rashford and Fernandes try to win games on their own, show their frustration and commit fouls, Maguire and Shaw make mistakes, Fred and McTominay get too aggressive. And funnily enough three players are actually cool during those periods, Lindelof, Lingard and Martial these are the only players that keep doing their things without extra pressure.
 

Scarlett Dracarys

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Many of our players are overrated. Many believe that a class manager will make this team challenging for title, i dont think that's the case.

We have some very talented players that COULD become top top players, but at the moment they are not.

Maguire
Shaw
Lindelof
Beek
Fred
Mctominay
AWB
Telles
Bailly
Dalot
Martial

None of these players would get in a Liverpool or City team. They might have gotten minutes for Everton or Leicester.

Maguire played two years for Leicester...that's a lotta minutes.
 

BlueHaze

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Then, I am afraid his fate is sealed. Unless the manager gets Rashford working hard, Greenwood working hard, Bruno a bit more disciplined, it could work but I do not see futures for McTominay, AWB in this team going forward.

AWB is a disaster at RB, we thought we have one of the best defensive RB's, I have seen him make mistake after mistake, we were made to believe to he is quick, I saw Josh King blitz him, whenever he is tracking back, he looks like he is jogging and does not care.

We can talk about tactics, but simple mistakes, Maguire and Shaw at fault for loads of goals this season. I hope the new manager shakes things up.
AWB imo was £50m down the drain. In modern football it's an absolute must for the fullbacks to be competent going forward. We signed a guy for a big amount who's completely incapable of doing anything going forward and we already had this issue on the left side. Rashford, Greenwood and Bruno I won't complain about they are all imo good players although Rashford has had a terrible dip in form.

What needs to be said is that the new manager simply cannot afford to feck up by ignoring the middle of the park. This is the most crucial area we need to focus on. Bring in 2 proper quality centre mids and let's go from there. If this area is not invested in properly we are fecked either way.

Also I'm counting on Cavani & Ronaldo to be done by next season so there's no secret we are also in need of a quality striker. If we rely solely on Rashford Greenwood and Martial we will also have problems going forward. Tbh Martial needs to go as well.
 

GlasgowCeltic

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If its a squad willing to down tools you have to question the success of the oft mentioned "cultural reboot"
 

Maluco

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:lol: I’m trying to avoid certain threads because I can already guess where the conversations are heading, but I didn’t expect that. Although I’ll admit it did surprise me when Real didn’t look to replace Varane with Eric Dier.
It shows what damage has been done to assets that these owners are supposed to care about. In the eyes of fans, we have an average squad. That’s down to the lack of direction and horrendous coaching decisions that have taken us down this road.

I think our players have been pretty classy putting up with amateur hour for 3 years. It wouldn’t happen at any other top club.
 

VanDeBank

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This is nonsense. The manager picks the players. We have 30 senior players and a bunch of decent kids. The manager is free to suspend or fine players for shitty behaviour and use the rest of the group.

Also you can't expect the players to do everything tactically when the manager picks the formation and gives bad tactical instructions combined with poor training sessions.

I'm sure if you'd ask Ronaldo if he wanted to play replace Maguire with Bailly he'd have said yes every time these last few weeks. He doesn't make those decisions.

I see a group of players trying but are just clueless. The difference sometime around Leicester was that they lost belief. They must have bought into the 2nd place finish -> title race this year nonsense as well.

The players that don't try have always been lazy and this has been exacerbated by the manager who indulges them and picks them regardless. Rashford never having been forced to track back these last 3 years but being the first name on the team sheet is a great example of this. Martial being first choice for a whole fecking season while being static as hell is another.

Basically the OP and many other posters downplay the impact of shite management.
 

sullydnl

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The players spent large chunks of last season having to make comeback after comeback, to a record-breaking degree. Even this year, they've done so repeatedly in the CL.

Their spirit and attitude has generally been very good over the last few years. But there's only so much you can compensate for mismanagement with spirit and only so long you can go on before chronic problems drag that spirit, confidence and attitude down.
 
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These posts with long lists of players that wouldn't get into our rivals' teams always pop up when a manager's underperforming, too. Usually with a whole bunch of backup players that barely get on the pitch for us added in there to pad it out.

Half this board thought Shaw was the best left-back in the world last season, now we're back to thinking he "might" get minutes for Everton.
 

romufc

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AWB imo was £50m down the drain. In modern football it's an absolute must for the fullbacks to be competent going forward. We signed a guy for a big amount who's completely incapable of doing anything going forward and we already had this issue on the left side. Rashford, Greenwood and Bruno I won't complain about they are all imo good players although Rashford has had a terrible dip in form.

What needs to be said is that the new manager simply cannot afford to feck up by ignoring the middle of the park. This is the most crucial area we need to focus on. Bring in 2 proper quality centre mids and let's go from there. If this area is not invested in properly we are fecked either way.

Also I'm counting on Cavani & Ronaldo to be done by next season so there's no secret we are also in need of a quality striker. If we rely solely on Rashford Greenwood and Martial we will also have problems going forward. Tbh Martial needs to go as well.

Agreed, this is why we are after Trippier and still are. After making a £50m flop signing, they wont sign another one for big money. Hopefully we get Trippier and Laird can step up the level.

Bruno, Greenwood, Rashford need better coaching, look at what Poch done with Erikson, Son etc.. or Ten Hag with the forwards.

I am sure the next manager will realise very quickly that we need better quality in midfield, you cannot just play without a midfield conductor, its not possible when your midfield cannot pass forward, add to that the wing back cant pass.
 

BlueHaze

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Agreed, this is why we are after Trippier and still are. After making a £50m flop signing, they wont sign another one for big money. Hopefully we get Trippier and Laird can step up the level.

Bruno, Greenwood, Rashford need better coaching, look at what Poch done with Erikson, Son etc.. or Ten Hag with the forwards.

I am sure the next manager will realise very quickly that we need better quality in midfield, you cannot just play without a midfield conductor, its not possible when your midfield cannot pass forward, add to that the wing back cant pass.
I have high hopes about him. He's done really well at Swansea so far and by just watching him you can clearly see he's very capable of going forward and is not afraid to take a man on. If he can stay injury free I'd believe he could make it here.

As for the second part in bold, what you wrote here is what worries me mate.

We have had 3 managers who have completely ignored this area. Jose signed Fred which only added further problems to an already bad situation.
 

Jezpeza

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lots of them have been very poor. Maguire and Shaw have been in dreadful form. Bruno too. Pogba dropped off after a great start. Mcfred have been woeful. Also the work rate has been bad. You can have a poor game in possession of the ball but work really hard without it.

Ole also lacked confidence in moving away from his best players even despite the form. Varane had a knock but we played him anyway rather than rotate and he got injured worse.

Its mainly tactics. Maguire has looked shit with no cover and playing in a high line. AWB should be instructed to slide across into a back 3 or whatever rather than maraud forward. Have we been meant to press or not this season? If ronaldo plays 9 bruno needs to be instructed to do something rather than his free role false 9 stuff on top of that. The wingers needed to be instructed to track back and get into shape quickly. It goes on and on.

at the end of the day, if we had been more tactically astute we could have done better. Lindelof and Bailly arent as good as an in form and fit Maguire and Varane, but swapping one in for a game shouldnt result in conceding 4 goals. You dont see city do that when stones or ake play. Hopefully the new coach gives players clearer roles and instructions and likewise for their respective back ups so we can slot players in and out a bit more without a massive adverse affect.
 

romufc

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I have high hopes about him. He's done really well at Swansea so far and by just watching him you can clearly see he's very capable of going forward and is not afraid to take a man on. If he can stay injury free I'd believe he could make it here.

As for the second part in bold, what you wrote here is what worries me mate.

We have had 3 managers who have completely ignored this area. Jose signed Fred which only added further problems to an already bad situation.
Yep, his injury record is what may be a reason he doesnt get a chance.

I think they have tried, Ole completely ignored it though. LVG got Herrera, Bastian, Shneiderlin but didnt work out, Jose signed Matic as well.

Ole just did not want to know, instead of selling Lingard and signing a midfield, or letting go of Mata and Matic. Lets see anyway what happens.
 

BlueHaze

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Yep, his injury record is what may be a reason he doesnt get a chance.

I think they have tried, Ole completely ignored it though. LVG got Herrera, Bastian, Shneiderlin but didnt work out, Jose signed Matic as well.

Ole just did not want to know, instead of selling Lingard and signing a midfield, or letting go of Mata and Matic. Lets see anyway what happens.
I forgot about Herrera. I liked him and thought it was a mistake letting him go and keeping the likes of Fred and McTominay but it is what it is.
 

Leftback99

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They've been pathetic. Mostly overrated with weak mentalities to go with it. I'm not expecting a big shift in performances from them.
 

Chaky_Best

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Think that week in week out we all point the finger to Shaw, Maguire, Pogba, Mc Fred, Bruno, Greenwood, but also Martial, Telles, Dalot, etc

I think that all is related and because Ole couldn't make them play alright the players just lost everything and began to be poorer and poorer as well as Ole.

So I unlike the Mourinho's era where we had so many fringe players to change (almost 5/6), I'd say that this team doesn't need to be rebuilt, but first authority and a run of game with a proper vision.

Nevertheless, I would bench few of them that are clearly poor at the moment (including Bruno, Maguire, Shaw), but hopefully with Carrick, a caretaker or Poch/Ten Hag now the players will show reaction, start playing like a team and stop being so poor.
 

Hammondo

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Yep, I agree with this. Its mainly the British contingent that is overrated though.

AWB - Worst RB in the PL
Shaw - Been poor all season
Maguire - Been poor all season
Rashford - Poor for about 10 months now, gets the goals so gets away with it
Bruno - off the Ball is poor, yes he tracks back on the odd occasion but he presses alone, whats the point
Greenwood - RW isn't really suited to him, hasnt really kicked on
McTominay - Rubbish
Fred - Average

Yet these players started most games under Ole.
AWB is nowhere near one of the worst RB's in the PL.

You missed Pogba whos been very poor.
 

romufc

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AWB is nowhere near one of the worst RB's in the PL.

You missed Pogba whos been very poor.
Pogba isnt a RB though. Neither is he the worst Cm in the league.

However poor Pogba is, he has ability, his technical ability is one of the best in the league.

The only attribute AWB has is slide tackling, which isn't even that great of an attribute because if you have defensive awareness, you can position yourself that you dont have to keep lunging in.

He is a big reason we cant play out the back because the ball does not progress down his side, more often than not he will lose it.
 

Hammondo

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Pogba isnt a RB though. Neither is he the worst Cm in the league.

However poor Pogba is, he has ability, his technical ability is one of the best in the league.

The only attribute AWB has is slide tackling, which isn't even that great of an attribute because if you have defensive awareness, you can position yourself that you dont have to keep lunging in.

He is a big reason we cant play out the back because the ball does not progress down his side, more often than not he will lose it.
Pogba has good passing technique, but is very very weak in other areas, he struggles to do his basic jobs.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Yep, I agree with this. Its mainly the British contingent that is overrated though.

AWB - Worst RB in the PL
Shaw - Been poor all season
Maguire - Been poor all season
Rashford - Poor for about 10 months now, gets the goals so gets away with it
Bruno - off the Ball is poor, yes he tracks back on the odd occasion but he presses alone, whats the point
Greenwood - RW isn't really suited to him, hasnt really kicked on
McTominay - Rubbish
Fred - Average

Yet these players started most games under Ole.
So obvious you are falling into the trap of underrating our squad based on bad coaching. I’ve seen it time and time again. Hell even Ronaldo is getting called the problem and overrated. Poor coaching, lack of system, lack of intensity can make even the best players in the world play crap even if the squad is stacked. All I want is the next manager to actually get the best out of all our players, otherwise short sighted fans will pretend it’s on them rather than the management above them.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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I actually hate threads like this, really brings out some clueless posters ready to abandon every single decent player we have without looking at the common denominators. Newsflash even Ronaldo looks a shadow of himself and it’s not because of his age, it’s because we don’t play as a team and haven’t for years.
 

bosnian_red

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I can't blame the players after a long period of time of underperformance and failure to eventually lose faith in the manager and find it hard to do anything. Players aren't robots. They worked their ass off for most of Ole's time here and never turned on him, but after falling further and further behind, just didn't feel as motivated. It happens literally everywhere.

They need to be coached. They need a coach capable of coaching them. That's it. Nothing wrong with their mentality IMO.
 

redmanx

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Don't worry it's their turn to face the music now. They've got nowhere to hide now that Ole is gone. I hope United fans are wise enough to identify the serial complainers/bottlers since Mourinho's time.
The players you mean will run their socks from now till the end of the season, but I wont be at all surprised if, once the new manager is installed, they soon return to their lazy, careless selves. Before the new permanent manager is installed we need a hard man to take over, somebody who wont be scared to jump all over certain egos and primadonnas and either force them to perform or get rid of them. Pogba, Rashford, Maguire, Baily, Greenwood, Bissaka, Lingard and Martial should all be put on notice and told if they do not perform at a consistent, acceptable level they will be moved on. Manchester United cannot have shirkers, primadonnas and wastrels in the squad.
 

romufc

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So obvious you are falling into the trap of underrating our squad based on bad coaching. I’ve seen it time and time again. Hell even Ronaldo is getting called the problem and overrated. Poor coaching, lack of system, lack of intensity can make even the best players in the world play crap even if the squad is stacked. All I want is the next manager to actually get the best out of all our players, otherwise short sighted fans will pretend it’s on them rather than the management above them.
We have seen players play well in the national team which suggests coaching at United is a problem.

Players like Fred, Maguire for example.

However, look at players like Rashford and AWB, they barely get into the England set up. AWB won't ever get in the England squad let alone team.

So yes, parts you say are true, the likes of Bruno, Greenwood, Maguire, Shaw, Fred will improve with coaching, we can see their qualities but players like McTominay, AWB I have no hope for tbh.
 

Rhyme Animal

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Nonchalantly scoring the winner...
Not sure if serious…

Haven’t the players taken the brunt of the manager’s tactical failings and lack of coaching!?

The players have been repeatedly singled out and criticised by pundits on TV while the manager has been coddled like a baby.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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A range of factors..
1) Dan James out, Ronaldo and Sancho in has changed dynamics. Rashford out for a long time with injuries.

The quality isn't the issue here, its the setup. What we had before needs adapting. See 2)

2) The very limited kick and run counters worked more often and longer than they should and our changes have meant we both can't do it as well as we were before and teams have learnt to counter. We need a better way to play, more technicality, more range of options.

3) Unstable defence....Varane injured more than not has killed stability. That mixed in with Maguires injury and form issues.

McTominay and Fred have also been injured/ off the boil.

I'm sure part of the answer here is being over played for a long period of time in a post covid catch up so bodies are probably not as finely tuned as they were.

4) Pogba....we've constantly been trying to shoe horn him in and the dynamics just don't work. On left wing he has been decent, but again see point 1 we lose the counter attacking speed of Rashford.

5) Momentum. We've had the toughest run of games i can remember going back to SAF days and we've gone into this run on bad form.

There is a reason I asked the question on one my threads about will Ole last till December. Frankly any manager in his position would have struggled and a bad form start can happen to any manager which we simply couldn't afford going into that run.

6) Discontent...Mata new deal no play, Jesse staying...no play. VdB signing...no play. Same as Telles, Dalot, Diallo, Cavani since Ronaldo. Many of these players have not had enough chances, have shined when given chances or have not had enough momentum to progress. This has to build frustration.

7) The biggest problem and linked to most of the above is our midfield is one of, if not they poorest midfields in the Prem. The kick and run tactics got us by over compensating with those tactics, but without the over compensation of extreme speed of James and Rashford on form you actually need to play ball.

Our midfield are a disabler not an enabler of all the quality we have. I can't see any manager dramatically changing things without fixing that. The answer might be getting creative with youth or something crazy like Cavani in midfield, but something has to change.

This last reason is also ultimately a big factor in finally losing patience with Ole. We had all the tools, we just needed to swap some. Sell some buy others. Sell Jesse, sell Pogba, release Mata, etc and reinvest in an engine. Tweaks like this would have dramatically improved the balance of the squad at next to no impact on quality of those positions.

This last point may be on the Board and might be why Ole got more time than he should have done.

Ole was definitely part of the problem and probably quite a big part, but he is far from all of it.
Great post! Very much agreed.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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We have seen players play well in the national team which suggests coaching at United is a problem.

Players like Fred, Maguire for example.

However, look at players like Rashford and AWB, they barely get into the England set up. AWB won't ever get in the England squad let alone team.

So yes, parts you say are true, the likes of Bruno, Greenwood, Maguire, Shaw, Fred will improve with coaching, we can see their qualities but players like McTominay, AWB I have no hope for tbh.
I don’t mind AWB think he’s a good player actually. McTominay I’d agree has no future. The obvious answer anyway is yes, some players clearly won’t be good enough, particularly for starting roles, but when the vast majority are playing poorly and as you say playing better elsewhere, you have to look at the coaching and overall club structure around them. I’m not saying we need to absolve the players of all blame but I think a very big portion can be taken from them when a manager has clearly hit the end. I’d expect the vast majority of our squad to greatly improve under a top coach.
 

romufc

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I don’t mind AWB think he’s a good player actually. McTominay I’d agree has no future. The obvious answer anyway is yes, some players clearly won’t be good enough, particularly for starting roles, but when the vast majority are playing poorly and as you say playing better elsewhere, you have to look at the coaching and overall club structure around them. I’m not saying we need to absolve the players of all blame but I think a very big portion can be taken from them when a manager has clearly hit the end. I’d expect the vast majority of our squad to greatly improve under a top coach.
I agree with that, with better coaching and a system players will improve. The one thing a top coach will do is hold players liable.

We will see a mistake from Shaw and Maguire but I can tell you we wont see it week in week out cause they wont be playing if they do so.

Ole let players of the hook too easily, players made mistakes and they knew they'd play. Once competition is re-introduced, players will look sharper.

Look at the way Pep and Klopp do it, Klopp puts in Konate in a big game just to make sure Matip is not getting complacent, Jota starts and then a big game comes Bobby is back in, it sends messages to players

Pep is the same, drops Grealish, another player comes plays well. How often have we done that? Easily doable, if one game Shaw doesnt play and Telles plays, you will see that Shaw will up his game too.
 

NoLogo

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I actually hate threads like this, really brings out some clueless posters ready to abandon every single decent player we have without looking at the common denominators. Newsflash even Ronaldo looks a shadow of himself and it’s not because of his age, it’s because we don’t play as a team and haven’t for years.
Yeah it's a bit shocking. Teams completely fails at pressing, midfielders are somehwere in nowhere land but of course Maguire and Shaw are to blame for those goals. And it's easy to blame them because if you have to defend in situations like that being caught in such a bad position makes you look awful. The cause however is not the individual player but the awfully prepared and trained team that fails as a collective to defend and put preassure on the Liverpool players so they can't freely pass through our ranks.
 

Abraxas

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I agree with this.

Let's be clear, Ole has been bad for a while. He completely ran out of ideas, no two ways about it.

But I think some people started to look for Ole in every action. If somebody miscontrols a football it's Ole because it's his structure and the players don't know what to do. If it's an individual mistake then it's Ole because he is putting us under pressure.

There's still an element of personal responsibility. How you carry yourself as an individual. Taking pride in your work, reaching minimum standards. Not committing ridiculous errors that are totally unavoidable no matter how the team is performing. We're talking about clearing a football, or hitting it to the guy that's plainly about 5 yards away.

It's possible to see that some of these things were simply sloppy play, poor mentality, even if Ole played a role. If the defenders can't find a red shirt because we can't deal with a press so they lump it, then okay - Ole, where is our structure. If people get sent off ridiculously, can't control a ball under no pressure, or punch the ball into a net then yes the club situation plays a part but this is Man Utd, you have to do better.

Maybe we have some serious issues personnel wise and some seriously overrated players. I am hoping not.
 

Roboc7

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Can’t absolve players of blame but Ole’s management this season was abysmal. He didn’t use the three years he had to implement any kind of style on or off the ball that wasn’t incredibly basic and sooner or later that catches up with you.

We’ve spent three years being told can’t judge until he gets x,y, z player but it’s made very little difference giving him those players. The coaches get the blame for a lot, more than I’ve ever seen at any other club and no doubt they need improving.

But better players, better coaches aren’t going to make much difference if the guy in charge of it all isn’t up to the job. Ole didn’t have a plan beyond nostalgia, cliches and counter attacking.
 

RUCK4444

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The players have been fecking woeful this season, we all know the coaching has been substandard but players of this calibre should be able to muster better performances than 4-1 at Watford ffs.

Even if this squad had zero manager and coaching staff they would know what they need to do on a football pitch to avoid results as bad as that. Nobody will tell me different.

They have been weak and defended like clowns, experienced internationals who have played with one another for multiple seasons. Individual errors have been off the scale this season and have cost us so many points.

Again we all accept the coaching has a large part to play but like Maguire admitted the players, to a man, have been so far off it it’s untrue.

The squad whilst high in quality severely lacks characters and leadership on the pitch, has done for many years now.
 

90 + 5min

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As long as players are more interested in likes and other things beside football they will not perform well. Weak mentality and nonexistent form and we see what we see. I will never only blame manager for results. Players are equal if not more a reason why we are where we are.

Could they start performing? Ofcourse. Will they? That is the question they need to answer. Not on social media but on the pitch.
 

chiz2kul

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Too much has been said about the players role in the mess. At the same time at this level, you cannot underestimate the importance of tactics, training and influence of the manager. You can have all the world class players at your disposal - if they're coached by a clueless oaf, they will lose games. I'll be hard pressed at blaming the players. United will truly be scary when a w tactically ept coach is at the helm.
 
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